(Oct. 04, 2020 12:05 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:01 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ]What Im saying is that effort: power. More effort draws out more power. However you can still put in effort and still lose. Its all about the effort, rather than if you followed through.
Then it becomes lip service. Following through on what you establish is Storytelling 101.
You dont have to follow through. If you follow through or not depends on the opponent your facing. It isnt retconning what you establish.
If you put in the effort and the strength that coincides with power, that is enough
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:07 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:05 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ]Then it becomes lip service. Following through on what you establish is Storytelling 101.
You dont have to follow through. If you follow through or not depends on the opponent your facing. It isnt retconning what you establish.
If you put in the effort and the strength that coincides with power, that is enough
When it comes to telling stories that's not enough. You may want to do research on storytelling. For you that may be enough and that's fine. But that's not how telling good stories is done.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:10 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:07 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ]You dont have to follow through. If you follow through or not depends on the opponent your facing. It isnt retconning what you establish.
If you put in the effort and the strength that coincides with power, that is enough
When it comes to telling stories that's not enough. You may want to do research on storytelling. For you that may be enough and that's fine. But that's not how telling good stories is done.
I dont have to do research, your view is just flawed. Lets look at Valt vs Hyuga again. Valt can put in a maximum amount of effort, resolving in a maximum amount of power, and still lose. Its not likely, but it can happen. Because
power is not everything. If matches were just always head on collisions sure whatever. But its technique and strategy. If you put in the power but have a losing strategy, you will end up losing. However you still put in the maximum effort that matches in with power. There are more factors than just power at play in a battle. One person having a higher power level than another does not mean the stronger person gets a guaranteed win
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:14 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:10 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ]When it comes to telling stories that's not enough. You may want to do research on storytelling. For you that may be enough and that's fine. But that's not how telling good stories is done.
I dont have to do research, your view is just flawed. Lets look at Valt vs Hyuga again. Valt can put in a maximum amount of effort, resolving in a maximum amount of power, and still lose. Its not likely, but it can happen. Because power is not everything. If matches were just always head on collisions sure whatever. But its technique and strategy. If you put in the power but have a losing strategy, you will end up losing. However you still put in the maximum effort that matches in with power. There are more factors than just power at play in a battle. One person having a higher power level than another does not mean the stronger person gets a guaranteed win
Going back to an earlier example in episode 25. Lui vs Hikaru. Even with all the planning Hikaru did he was not able to overcome the sheer gap in power between him and Lui. Still got soundly defeated by Raging Upper. The outcome made perfect sense because Lui was far more powerful than him. There's was no basis for Hikaru to take down Lui and he rightfully lost as a result They followed through on what they set up. That battle was wonderfully done. Your saying that follow through doesn't matter, and that's not true in telling good stories.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:19 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:14 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ]I dont have to do research, your view is just flawed. Lets look at Valt vs Hyuga again. Valt can put in a maximum amount of effort, resolving in a maximum amount of power, and still lose. Its not likely, but it can happen. Because power is not everything. If matches were just always head on collisions sure whatever. But its technique and strategy. If you put in the power but have a losing strategy, you will end up losing. However you still put in the maximum effort that matches in with power. There are more factors than just power at play in a battle. One person having a higher power level than another does not mean the stronger person gets a guaranteed win
Going back to an earlier example in episode 25. Lui vs Hikaru. Even with all the planning Hikaru did he was not able to overcome the sheer gap in power between him and Lui. Still got soundly defeated by Raging Upper. The outcome made perfect sense because Lui was far more powerful than him. There's was no basis for Hikaru to take down Lui and he rightfully lost as a result They followed through on what they set up. That battle was wonderfully done. Your saying that follow through doesn't matter, and that's not true in telling good stories.
Your example does not make sense with my reply. That was a head on collision. In a full battle, there is more than that going on. If its just head on collisions, its a battle of strength. But battles go
so much further than power levels. You can put in the amount of effort and get the coinciding amount of power, but simply having power will not win you a battle.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:22 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:19 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ]Going back to an earlier example in episode 25. Lui vs Hikaru. Even with all the planning Hikaru did he was not able to overcome the sheer gap in power between him and Lui. Still got soundly defeated by Raging Upper. The outcome made perfect sense because Lui was far more powerful than him. There's was no basis for Hikaru to take down Lui and he rightfully lost as a result They followed through on what they set up. That battle was wonderfully done. Your saying that follow through doesn't matter, and that's not true in telling good stories.
Your example does not make sense with my reply. That was a head on collision. In a full battle, there is more than that going on. If its just head on collisions, its a battle of strength. But battles go so much further than power levels. You can put in the amount of effort and get the coinciding amount of power, but simply having power will not win you a battle.
Even before they clashed at the end he was completely shut down by Lui. All of his plans came to nothing. Because he simply was not powerful enough. Same thing happened when just like he planned used the craters to speed up and strike. Good plan. Still didn't work. He got blow away by Dragon and Rantaro bursted. Why? Because he couldn't overcome Dragon's raw power. Every plan he tried failed because he could not overcome the gap in power between him and the bladers he was facing.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:28 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:22 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ]Your example does not make sense with my reply. That was a head on collision. In a full battle, there is more than that going on. If its just head on collisions, its a battle of strength. But battles go so much further than power levels. You can put in the amount of effort and get the coinciding amount of power, but simply having power will not win you a battle.
Even before they clashed at the end he was completely shut down by Lui. All of his plans came to nothing. Because he simply was not powerful enough. Same thing happened when just like he planned used the craters to speed up and strike. Good plan. Still didn't work. He got blow away by Dragon and Rantaro bursted. Why? Because he couldn't overcome Dragon's raw power. Every plan he tried failed because he could not overcome the gap in power between him and the bladers he was facing.
The plan got disrupted due to Dante and Lui's counter play. Simple. Power is still in play, but its not everything.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:30 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:28 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ]Even before they clashed at the end he was completely shut down by Lui. All of his plans came to nothing. Because he simply was not powerful enough. Same thing happened when just like he planned used the craters to speed up and strike. Good plan. Still didn't work. He got blow away by Dragon and Rantaro bursted. Why? Because he couldn't overcome Dragon's raw power. Every plan he tried failed because he could not overcome the gap in power between him and the bladers he was facing.
The plan got disrupted due to Dante and Lui's counter play. Simple. Power is still in play, but its not everything.
Not the part with the crater. That went off without a hitch and it still failed. Couldn't overcome Dragon's raw power. It was too much for him.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:33 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:30 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ]The plan got disrupted due to Dante and Lui's counter play. Simple. Power is still in play, but its not everything.
Not the part with the crater. That went off without a hitch and it still failed. Couldn't overcome Dragon's raw power. It was too much for him.
Yes, apart of the counter play used power. As I said power is still at play, but you apply that power through strategy.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:35 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:33 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ]Not the part with the crater. That went off without a hitch and it still failed. Couldn't overcome Dragon's raw power. It was too much for him.
Yes, apart of the counter play used power. As I said power is still at play, but you apply that power through strategy.
What I'm saying, and what that battle illustrates, is that even with a good strategy, If the gap in power is too great your having a good strategy is not what's going to allow you to overcome it. Hikaru had a very good strategy, but still, the raw power of Lui and Drum was too much to overcome. Even used the part of his strategy to speed up in and the crater and gain power and it still wasn't enough to overcome these bladers. They were simply too strong for him.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:39 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:35 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, apart of the counter play used power. As I said power is still at play, but you apply that power through strategy.
What I'm saying, and what that battle illustrates, is that even with a good strategy, If the gap in power is too great your having a good strategy is not what's going to allow you to overcome it. Hikaru had a very good strategy, but still, the raw power of Lui and Drum was too much to overcome. Even used the part of his strategy to speed up in and the crater and gain power and it still wasn't enough to overcome these bladers. They were simply too strong for him.
The gap of power can also be bridged through strategy. Hikaru and Rantaro just didn't bridge it since theirs fell apart.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:41 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:39 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ]What I'm saying, and what that battle illustrates, is that even with a good strategy, If the gap in power is too great your having a good strategy is not what's going to allow you to overcome it. Hikaru had a very good strategy, but still, the raw power of Lui and Drum was too much to overcome. Even used the part of his strategy to speed up in and the crater and gain power and it still wasn't enough to overcome these bladers. They were simply too strong for him.
The gap of power can also be bridged through strategy. Hikaru and Rantaro just didn't bridge it since theirs fell apart.
They couldn't bridge it because the gap was too wide. Drum ended up in the perfect position for their crater plan to work. He was right where they wanted him. Two on one. In the center. And it still failed. Too much raw power for them to overcome.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:43 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:41 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ]The gap of power can also be bridged through strategy. Hikaru and Rantaro just didn't bridge it since theirs fell apart.
They couldn't bridge it because the gap was too wide. Drum ended up in the perfect position for their crater plan to work. He was right where they wanted him. Two on one. In the center. And it still failed. Too much raw power for them to overcome.
Yes their plan fell apart due to power, but Dante and Lui obviously didn't just blindly attack. Their plan they made on the fly countered Hikaru and Rantaro's giving them the win. What Im saying is power is important, but your strategy in the end is what really guarantees the win. That simple rule is what makes the possibility of Hyuga beating Valt possible.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:45 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:43 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ]They couldn't bridge it because the gap was too wide. Drum ended up in the perfect position for their crater plan to work. He was right where they wanted him. Two on one. In the center. And it still failed. Too much raw power for them to overcome.
Yes their plan fell apart due to power, but Dante and Lui obviously didn't just blindly attack. Their plan they made on the fly countered Hikaru and Rantaro's giving them the win. What Im saying is power is important, but your strategy in the end is what really guarantees the win. That simple rule is what makes the possibility of Hyuga beating Valt possible.
Drum didn't do anything particularly special. He barreled down the center of the stadium. That was it. Which put him in the perfect position for Hikaru's crater plan. When you think about it, it was the perfect situation for Hikaru and Rantaro, but even with the picture perfect execution of that crater plan, it still failed. Why? Not because Drum didn't anything particularly special, but because Dragon's raw strength was too much for him to overcome.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:49 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:45 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ]Yes their plan fell apart due to power, but Dante and Lui obviously didn't just blindly attack. Their plan they made on the fly countered Hikaru and Rantaro's giving them the win. What Im saying is power is important, but your strategy in the end is what really guarantees the win. That simple rule is what makes the possibility of Hyuga beating Valt possible.
Drum didn't do anything particularly special. He barreled down the center of the stadium. That was it. Which put him in the perfect position for Hikaru's crater plan. When you think about it, it was the perfect situation for Hikaru and Rantaro, but even with the picture perfect execution of that crater plan, it still failed. Why? Not because Drum didn't anything particularly special, but because Dragon's raw strength was too much for him to overcome.
Yeah. Plans can be simple.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:50 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:49 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ]Drum didn't do anything particularly special. He barreled down the center of the stadium. That was it. Which put him in the perfect position for Hikaru's crater plan. When you think about it, it was the perfect situation for Hikaru and Rantaro, but even with the picture perfect execution of that crater plan, it still failed. Why? Not because Drum didn't anything particularly special, but because Dragon's raw strength was too much for him to overcome.
Yeah. Plans can be simple.
It wasn't a plan. He just came to the center of the stadium. If anything, he fell into a trap, because it was the perfect spot for Hikaru and Rantaro to strike. They struck and got blow away and bursted by Drum's raw strength. I've gotta say it was an impressive show of strength from Drum.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:54 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:50 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah. Plans can be simple.
It wasn't a plan. He just came to the center of the stadium. If anything, he fell into a trap, because it was the perfect spot for Hikaru and Rantaro to strike. They struck and got blow away and bursted by Drum's raw strength. I've gotta say it was an impressive show of strength from Drum.
Yes, a simple counter play.
If he wanted to implement a plan he should have rode along the edge of the stadium thereby avoiding Hikaru and Rantaro's attack.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:56 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:54 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ]It wasn't a plan. He just came to the center of the stadium. If anything, he fell into a trap, because it was the perfect spot for Hikaru and Rantaro to strike. They struck and got blow away and bursted by Drum's raw strength. I've gotta say it was an impressive show of strength from Drum.
Yes, a simple counter play.
He simply took them head on with his raw power which is a very Drum thing to do, his natural instinct. Nothing he planned out. His raw power won the day. His strength eclipsed Hikaru's and Rantaro's plan.
just want to point it drum had zero plan against rantaro and hikaru they one that made a plan a mid battle is lui. hikaru and rantaro simply couldn't do beat 2 bladers who was to much raw power . a strategy only work if your at the same level of power with someone if not all plan is useless no matter how smart you are with no raw power to back it up.
Hikaru's plan was for Drum and Lui to smack into each other. Then, Drum was supposed to get knocked out of the stadium and Lui was supposed to lose stamina from that collision with Dragon. Rantaro and Hikaru were then supposed to finish Longinus off with a ring-out. Clearly that didn't happen because Lui also had a plan. He saw this coming not because of his power, but because of his mega IQ brain, so he pushed Dragon and awakened it. Obviously then, Dragon was in perfect condition (with its wings) to burst Ragnarauk, while Lui targeted Hikaru. It was a part of their strategy. In the end, strength decided the match, as it was a head-on attack from Helios and Longinus. This means both of you are correct. Strategy comes into play during most of the battle, and power comes into play at the very end. Both are equally important in deciding a match, which is why you have opposite protagonists in Sparking. One who thinks it's all about power, and one who thinks it's all about strategy, and the legends are helping them realize that it's about both.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:56 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ]If he wanted to implement a plan he should have rode along the edge of the stadium thereby avoiding Hikaru and Rantaro's attack.
(Oct. 04, 2020 12:56 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, a simple counter play.
He simply took them head on with his raw power which is a very Drum thing to do, his natural instinct. Nothing he planned out. His raw power won the day. His strength eclipsed Hikaru's and Rantaro's plan.
He didn’t need to plan this one out. Dante simply just counterattacked. Even a simple counter attack is a strategy.
(Oct. 04, 2020 1:14 AM)God Dragruler Wrote: [ -> ]just want to point it drum had zero plan against rantaro and hikaru they one that made a plan a mid battle is lui. hikaru and rantaro simply couldn't do beat 2 bladers who was to much raw power . a strategy only work if your at the same level of power with someone if not all plan is useless no matter how smart you are with no raw power to back it up.
It didn’t have much to do with power tbh. The irl reason why Hikaru didn’t make it is simply the fact that they didn’t want either of the brothers to end up fighting Lane before the finals or each other in the semis-one of which would have been inevitable. The in anime reason is the simple fact that they didn’t win. Most of the bladers in this tournament were on equal ground but lost just because there has to be a result. Drum and Lui just happened to know what they were doing and therefore won.
(Oct. 04, 2020 1:17 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 12:56 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ]If he wanted to implement a plan he should have rode along the edge of the stadium thereby avoiding Hikaru and Rantaro's attack.
He simply took them head on with his raw power which is a very Drum thing to do, his natural instinct. Nothing he planned out. His raw power won the day. His strength eclipsed Hikaru's and Rantaro's plan.
He didn’t need to plan this one out. Dante simply just counterattacked. Even a simple counter attack is a strategy.
So you consider any kind of move a strategy? He simply attacked them. A strategy is usually described as a PLAN of action. He didn't have a plan he simply attacked.
(Oct. 04, 2020 1:25 AM)Admiral W Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 04, 2020 1:17 AM)Eclipse Force Wrote: [ -> ]He didn’t need to plan this one out. Dante simply just counterattacked. Even a simple counter attack is a strategy.
So you consider any kind of move a strategy? He simply attacked them. A strategy is usually described as a PLAN of action. He didn't have a plan he simply attacked.
Let’s just agree to disagree, I have to take a shower very soon.