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Burst Classic - New Format Feedback & Discussion

Mar. 22, 2019  7:48 PM
 
(Mar. 22, 2019  7:26 PM)lilphilyb Wrote:
(Mar. 22, 2019  7:24 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: I'm referring to Octa in a performance sense really. It just doesn't make much impact on things; it's weight is nice and lets it keep the center nicely, but it's instability and average stamina means that it can very easily be beaten. I hear it works nicely in an "Octavor" combo, but I don't think it'll make much of a splash outside of that.

Charge, yes, will be more available from the get go and I'm sure lots will try to use it in Classic because of the weight advantage. I don't think this weight advantage will he's the fact that the Driver has poor Burst resistance and subpar stamina though, haha. But it'll be interesting to see how it goes.

What is an Octavor Combo?

It is Roktavor with Octa
Mar. 24, 2019  8:17 PM
 
is orichalcum 03 banned?
switchstrike hasbro. i dont mean shadow version of orichalcum
Mar. 24, 2019  9:03 PM
 
(Mar. 24, 2019  8:17 PM)William Cochran Wrote: is orichalcum 03 banned?
switchstrike hasbro. i dont mean shadow version of orichalcum

Octa is legal but outer and orichalcum o3 is banned
Mar. 24, 2019  9:03 PM
 
i know outer is banned but is the rest of orichalcum banned or no?
ok thx andyHG
what about shining amaterious
Mar. 24, 2019  10:11 PM
 
(Mar. 12, 2019  10:08 PM)Wombat Wrote: Since you asked so politely, I'd be glad to provide an explanation for now.

Accel' and Blow', similarly to Zephyr', are far too exploitable in Tornado Stalling Stamina combos to be allowed in Classic. Having a combo that's capable of outspinning most Stamina types and avoiding stationary Burst Attackers (which is the most reliable way to counter stationary Stamina combos) while also performing well against Xtreme' and Jolt' based KO Attackers (the primary counter to Tornado Stallers) due to the stronger spring of the ' Driver makes them unhealthy for the format. Aside from a few lucky KOs, I couldn't get any Classic-legal combo, aside from like, Dragoon on Eternal, to defeat Guardian Kerbeus/Chaos Gravity Zephyr'. Back in 2015, Odin Heavy Blow was a semi-popular variant of Odin Heavy Defense, and it would only become more powerful with Blow'.

Merge' and Volcanic' could potentially be unbanned in the future, it's just a matter of making sure that there is no combo that could make them overpowered. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would - Takara Tomy had the right idea by making only Attack and Balance Drivers have ' versions - but even then, having a Driver that's not completely dedicated to KO Attack and makes you basically unburstable in a format where bursting is relatively frequent seems like it might be too much of an advantage.

Let me preface this with the fact that I haven't played in a Burst Classic event yet, and have done some testing, but not as extensively as some others in this thread for it. However, I do have a good knowledge of many parts and also played extensively back when Burst was released, so these are my impressions at the moment on this issue:

I think you're overestimating the stamina of Accel', Zephyr', and Blow' here. The best stamina types will not lose to Tornado Stallers. I'm fairly certain of that. Back in the day I don't think I ever saw something like D.S.A win a match against something like D.H.D. I even have recorded instances in my battle log of me winning 3-0 or 3-1 against Deathscyther Accel combos using Defense and Revolve-based stamina combos back during 2015/early 2016. And also a few instances of Accel or Xtreme-based attackers beating stallers. There's a reason why Tornado Stallers have always been basically a niche type.

And if anything, encouraging more use of Dragoon/Dragoon F is a positive as in my (admittedly little) testing so far, it isn't very consistent against other Stamina types generally speaking (depending on the context, of course).

They might be able to do well against attackers on Drivers like Xtreme', but things like X' are going to be a lot quicker, so they certainly aren't invincible. A key difference now that wasn't present in the past during the beginning of Beyblade Burst when Tornado Stallers saw some use is our KO ruling for when Beyblades bounce off the back wall of the exit; I feel like there would be more KOs for more aggressive attackers against Tornado Stallers using Drivers like X' because of this.

Volcanic' and I think Merge' also moves even quicker, so I feel like they could handle A'/Z'/B' combos too. Would need to test, though.

Even if pure attack types have some trouble against them (as they naturally would against a mobile opponent versus a stationary one), I think that it would still be balanced by the fact that the Tornado Stallers won't OS the top stamina combos.

I would also argue that especially for Burst Classic the most reliable way to counter stationary stamina combos generally speaking is to use Xtreme', not a stationary attack combo.

Right now stationary defense combos don't stand much of a chance against Xtreme' attackers, so I feel like allowing for more options with mobile defense combos might not be a bad thing. It would encourage more usage of both left-spin and right-spin stamina types which keeps the door open for pure attack types, while giving defense an arguably needed buff.

I'm sure that things like gK.H.Z' can OS a lot of lower tier stamina types, but as always we have to be looking at things objectively here in terms of what is going to be viable at the top level of the format.

It's also important to remember that attack types can make use of things like A'/Z' as well; they are attack Drivers, after all.

I do understand the concern regarding how having a Driver which arguably isn't completely dedicated to KO Attack (I do think that things like A' however are better suited to Burst Attack though since they last for longer and can get more hits over time) that makes you basically unburstable could be an issue. Thankfully however, we don't offer 2 Points for Burst Finishes at the moment for Burst Classic, so that issue doesn't feel as critical to me as it might otherwise.

My feeling is that given we are in an experimental stage we should be allowing for as many parts as reasonably possible (and I think allowing for all Dash Drivers except Ds' is reasonable to want to test in this format) and then adjusting the ban list at the end of the experimental period based on our experience and the results submitted from each event.

I mean, as a comparison take a look at the original ban lists for the Metal Fight Limited Format. Jade banned? RS banned? Libra unbanned? Omega unbanned on v1.1? All crazy looking back. But that's okay because formats like this are meant to evolve and change. I could be completely wrong about the Dash Drivers we're speaking about here and they could be OP, but I think it would be beneficial to test out all Dash Drivers minus Ds' being unbanned in at least a couple tournaments just to see how it goes.

So, I'll talk to @[~Mana~] about this and maybe we can try it at IT'S TIME TO RIP IT! next weekend since I know he agreed with trying this out at some events.
Mar. 24, 2019  11:07 PM
 
Will there be a separate thread for discussing competitive classic combos? Because since classic is a lot more balanced than later series were you can basically get into the finals by using a safe combo without worry. I would really like to see more talk about KO attackers and defenders. Wow I just realized how long it's been since I've seen a non self KO. I can't wate for TIME TO RIP IT!#unite's the most fun classic defence wall.
Mar. 26, 2019  11:52 AM
 
(Mar. 22, 2019  7:26 PM)lilphilyb Wrote: What is an Octavor Combo?

Roktavor on octa
Mar. 27, 2019  5:59 PM
 
I've found that for at least my molds, SV3 Knuckle hunter is a god tear classic combo. I don't know why but my hasbro hunter for K3 is tighter and pulls off a better flower pattern than hasbro xtreem. And my SV3 is decently tight for a V3 and the spring for the bound attack is a lot more of a blow than a coshun. In my testings against G2 G U, it could burst G2 or KO it consistently. But you need to get a good flower pattern so I find using a long winder with it helps. I wouldn't say it's good as S.l.x' but I still think it's great for deck. Maybe my molds are just weird but I think this combo works well as an ok burst attacker and a more exsesible option than S.l.x'.
Mar. 28, 2019  12:40 AM
 
Hey guys! We're making a few more ruling changes to Classic, taking immediate effect. Please see the updates below;


Layer Bans Update - God Layers Banned

The following Layers are now banned from use in Burst Classic format:
  • Cognite C3 (Hasbro only)
  • God Valkyrie/Genesis Valtryek V3/Strike Valtryek V3
  • Guardian Kerbeus (TT only)
  • Killer Deathscyther/Doomscizor D3
  • Kreis Satan/Satomb S3
As you may have realised as you got further down this list (if the section title didn't seal the deal for you), this now means that all God Layers are now banned from Burst Classic. Definitely a controversial move to some people, so I'll take a moment to explain this decision.

This hasn't been the simplest of decisions. We've debated long and hard over this topic within the Contributor team, both based on our own concerns and the concerns from the community voiced within this thread. We see the concerns regarding whether the format is truly "Classic", and also some distaste involving having exceptions on a banlist that can easily confuse some players.

With this change, we're looking at the following impact;
  • Renewal of "Classic" focus - Burst Classic is a format designed to give Single and Dual Layers the chance to thrive in their own format, as they've become unusable in our existing Burst Format due to weight increase and power creep. It's a throwback format if you'd like to call it that, just with new Drivers permitted to keep things fresh and prevent the format from stagnating. While the God Layers we included did not upset the metagame within this format, there were a number of concerns about whether the format is actually "classic". This change should quell these concerns as we reiterate our goals for this format.
  • Exception Simplification - Concerns were voiced regarding the roundabout way in which God Layers were added as "exceptions" to the God Layer ban. We permitted six Layers due to their minimal impact on the Classic metagame, but this caused confusion among players as to why this was the case, and often questions being raised why other God Layers couldn't be added. These Layers also provided no significant impact to the metagame, making their roundabout exception an overcomplication when only one or two would see use. This change removes the exceptions from the list and provides a simple and easy-to-understand ruling on these Layers.
  • Commitment to Limited - As mentioned by myself at various points within the thread, we are actively planning an actual Burst Limited format, planned to be balanced around the God Layers anyway. While we understand a God Layer format might not let the six Layers we've banned here be completely viable, we don't believe all Layers will ever be viable; there will be parts in every format that just aren't viable, be it Layers, Drivers or Disks. It is the unfortunate circle of life. However, we commit to making a God-centric Burst Limited available by the end of this year to provide a space for God/Evolution Layers, and perhaps even Hasbro's Turbo Layers to thrive within.
We hope everyone understands why we're making this change. As I said earlier, this wasn't an easy choice to make and we were definitely at odds with each other during the discussion around this topic. If anyone has any concerns regarding this change, we welcome the feedback and will address it to our best ability.


Disk Bans Update - Gatinko Disks

As previously suggested, we're adjusting the wording for our recent Disk bans on Blitz, Hurricane and Sting. The new wording is as follows:

Quote:
  • All Disks released as part of the Gatinko Layer System (Blitz, Hurricane, Sting etc).

This update provides a catchall for any new Disks that may be released during the current Gatinko Layer System to avoid constant ruling updates in this area. This means that any Disks listed on this article are banned from use in Burst Classic format.


Future Considerations

We're still looking closely at our Dash Driver bans and whether we can ease the restriction in this area. As always, any testing in this area is appreciated, and we're also open for Classic events to be hosted with these restrictions lifted to help gather competitive data on how to approach this area. Notably, this weekend's Classic event in Toronto - IT'S TIME TO RIP IT! - will have Dash Driver restrictions lifted to see what prevails. Xtend+ is still banned, regardless of the Dash Driver restrictions.

We're also continuing to look heavily at Wolborg, which is causing concern for some players at the moment. No need to act right now, but it's an area to keep an eye on.
Mar. 28, 2019  12:46 AM
 
Daaaaaaaang. I was not expecting that. I'll go update the spreadsheet. This is going to make tournaments interesting, now that gK is totally out of the running.
Mar. 28, 2019  1:35 AM
 
This was definitely out of left field, but I'm looking forward to seeing what Winning Combos come out of future Burst Classic Format tournaments in the aftermath of the legal God and SwitchStrike Layers getting oofed lol.
Mar. 29, 2019  1:36 AM
 
Shouldn’t Octa be banned? Hasbro octa is widely available and really good with certain layers that don’t burst as easily
Mar. 29, 2019  2:28 AM
 
I understand and respect the decision to ban the god layers. I am sad to see them go. I think a layer like gK is well designed and would be fun to use. I don’t think the god layers previously allowed in classic would see much play in a god layer centric format. I hope I am wrong. Again, I am not complaining I am just sad to see them go.
Mar. 29, 2019  3:05 AM
 
(Mar. 28, 2019  12:40 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: We're still looking closely at our Dash Driver bans and whether we can ease the restriction in this area. As always, any testing in this area is appreciated, and we're also open for Classic events to be hosted with these restrictions lifted to help gather competitive data on how to approach this area. Notably, this weekend's Classic event in Toronto - IT'S TIME TO RIP IT! - will have Dash Driver restrictions lifted to see what prevails. Xtend+ is still banned, regardless of the Dash Driver restrictions.

Just wanted to clarify: I'm actually not going to try unbanning the additional Dash Drivers at IT'S TIME TO RIP IT! this weekend. Banning the God Layers is a big enough change, so I'd like to see how that goes first and then try unbanning the Dash Drivers (perhaps minus Destroy') at a future event.

(Mar. 29, 2019  2:28 AM)Shindog Wrote: I understand and respect the decision to ban the god layers. I am sad to see them go. I think a layer like gK is well designed and would be fun to use. I don’t think the god layers previously allowed in classic would see much play in a god layer centric format. I hope I am wrong. Again, I am not complaining I am just sad to see them go.

Yeah, there is nothing inherently wrong with God Layers like gK in this format and you're right that some may not see much use in a God Layer-centric format. But unfortunately the ultimate conclusion we made was that it made more sense from an organizational perspective to try removing them given the goal of the format is to be "Classic". This perspective was only bolstered by our intention to introduce a "Burst Limited" God Layer-centric format in the future. Thinking about a future where God Layers existed in both formats didn't seem right.

I think the less complicated we can make the restrictions on formats like this, the better.
Mar. 29, 2019  5:53 AM
 
For Organizers I've created a new one-page sheet giving an overview of the format-specific rules and restrictions that could be useful for posting or handing out at your events: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1okmI...sp=sharing

I'll be using this at IT'S TIME TO RIP IT! this weekend.

I'll add this to our official resources folder later on once we've finalized the initial format rules/restrictions.
Apr. 03, 2019  10:38 PM
 
(Apr. 03, 2019  10:24 PM)Ntruder19 Wrote:
(Apr. 03, 2019  7:24 PM)RED NINJA 0829 Wrote: Classic is only based on Single layers and Dual layers

They include drivers and bad layers from other generations to keep it from being exactly like the pre-god meta.
Well, they removed the god layers.
Apr. 03, 2019  11:45 PM
 
They removed the God layer exceptions because they're trying to keep the rules from having too many exceptions, and also because God is getting its own format later on.
A4 is bad, but it being bad won't make it allowed in Classic. The god exceptions aren't there, they aren't going to start making Cho-Z or Turbo exceptions. Stop suggesting it.
Apr. 09, 2019  10:38 PM
 
Hey all,

I wanted to post some tests I've done with Power to see how useful it could be in Classic. The combo I used Power on was Xeno Xcalibur Polish Power. I know I could use Heavy or Gravity on this combo, but I find Polish to work well with Power for potentially getting some outspins in same-spin match ups. Its lighter weight compared to Heavy and Gravity also helps for burst resistance.

Here are my results:

Acid Anubis Gravity Orbit (First) vs. Xeno Xcalibur Polish Power (Second Sliding Shoot)
Spoiler (Click to View)
- A2.G.O: 2 OS (20% Win Rate)
- X2.P.Pw: 7 Burst, 1 KO (80% Win Rate)

Wolborg Yell Eternal (First) vs. Xeno Xcalibur Polish Power (Second Sliding Shoot)
Spoiler (Click to View)
- WB.Y.Et: 4 OS (40% Win Rate)
- X2.P.Pw: 3 Burst, 2 KO, 1 OS (60% Win Rate)

Yegdrion Y2 Knuckle Yard-S (Battle Ring Mode) (First) vs. Xeno Xcalibur Polish Power (Second Sliding Shoot)
Spoiler (Click to View)
- Y2.K.Yr-S: 4 OS, 1 Burst (50% Win Rate)
- X2.P.Pw: 3 KO, 2 Burst (50% Win Rate)
Apr. 10, 2019  3:25 PM
 
@[MagixG] Please refrain from posting "joke" materiel in this thread. This is meant to be a serious discussion thread regarding the Burst Classic format.
This goes for everyone else as well Joyful_3
*Thread cleaning commences.
Apr. 29, 2019  3:08 PM
 
I know it was actually JUST released, but will Storm Pegasus Burst remake possibly have a spot anywhere in here? Also, what about Quick'? I'm assuming so because it's basically wider, shorter Xtreme'
Apr. 29, 2019  5:08 PM
 
(Apr. 29, 2019  3:08 PM)MagixG Wrote: I know it was actually JUST released, but will Storm Pegasus Burst remake possibly have a spot anywhere in here? Also, what about Quick'? I'm assuming so because it's basically wider, shorter Xtreme'
Heck no. It is 19 grams and has metal in the layer, it may not even be allowed in limited
Apr. 29, 2019  7:22 PM
 
The plastic remakes were mostly created and released during the single and dual layer eras, are most similar to single layers, and get classified as such. Storm Pegasus was released during GT and with it's metal and weight is most similar to a ChoZ bey. Bad teeth or no, this layer probably should not be classic-legal.
Apr. 30, 2019  2:21 PM
 
The Storm Pegasis Layer will not be legal in Classic, don't worry, haha. Even if it ends up sucking, it weighs 2-3x more than 90% of Layers usable in this format due to it's inclusion of metal, so the weight creep alone will probably upset the balance.
Apr. 30, 2019  6:05 PM
 
But Qc' is safe right?
Apr. 30, 2019  6:22 PM
 
(Apr. 30, 2019  6:05 PM)MagixG Wrote: But Qc' is safe right?
There has been no official ruling on a Qc' exception yet, so right now it falls under standard dash driver bans.

Please be patient.
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