Burst Classic - New Format Feedback & Discussion

Kei, when you said attack is too good, do you mean that the skill cap has reduced (doesn't matter how much)? I'm asking if it is easier than it should be to win. If the answer is no, then I feel like defense and stamina don't need a buff. If something that requires skill is meta, why increase the risk? If everything that is being used has the same skill cap, then focusing on balancing the risk for every type makes sense. But, is that the case? If that's not the case, I would like the beys/ types with the high skill cap to thrive. Also, it's only in the classic format that attack is actually unarguably viable. This is not the case in standard format, right? So, this format could act like a 'compensation' format, where people can both fun and success by playing something that requires skill and isn't boring.

P.S: I don't own any beysUnhappy. I was just posting my opinion.
(May. 07, 2019  5:02 AM)Kei Wrote: Yeah, that's an option too as I don't think it is too threatening. But I don't know how much that would help. I probably should have said both Stamina and Defense in my other post. Even pure Defense types right now don't feel as threatening as they should. Attack is just so good.

It's my opinion that attack is too good because we allow Dash drivers. If attack lost Dash drivers, while Atomic and Xtend-Plus stay banned, the meta would probably be similar to that of the original Dual layer meta, where attack runs the risk of also bursting. Only differences being the Plastic gen remakes and some newer drivers.

I actually like the idea of Burst Classic being the place where drivers that are out-shined by Xt+, At, and X'/Qc' become viable.

Only dash drivers I'd allow is garbage like Merge' and maybe, with testing, Volcanic'.
(May. 06, 2019  11:58 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote: The chart doesn't make sense based on the results. You said it yourself that Zephyr' and Destroy' did not perform up to what you expected, so a better way of interpreting the data would be to unban them with further testing in mind. Zeta' I can see being an issue. There was some discussion about allowing Atomic, but I feel like that driver is probably much better than Zeta'.

What is very confusing is the ban on Accel' despite the fact, as you said, you didn't see any dash drivers but X', Ds', Z', and Zt'. Why ban a driver that isn't good enough for people to be using?

The rest of the chart makes sense. Like I said before, the rest of the dash drivers suck compared to X', so there was no point in banning them.

Just to address this myself;

I was explicit in saying Zephyr' and Destroy' need more extensive testing. I said I wasn't hugely concerned, but I'm obviously not 100% on lifting the ban entirely. My chart did specifically say "unbannable permitting extensive testing" for asterisked items, which were those two. 

I don't see the need to apply any of these unbans to the list yet when I'd imagine the rest of our experimental events will allow all Dash parts to be used for the data, like we've done this past weekend. I'd rather we addressed all of the Dash Drivers in full - based on actual data from Dash-permitted events - right as we make the format officially ranked to be perfectly honest.

I didn't comment at all on Accel' because it wasn't used. And that's precisely why I can't comment on it or move it from it's current ban position. I can make educated guesses on the other Drivers based on the performance of their base versions with some extra Burst resistance, but Accel is that awkward middle ground. 

If I'm still questioning Zephyr', why is it unreasonable to question Accel'? Both are similar in having excellent attack and stamina. If Zephyr' can be unbanned, yes, Accel' probably can too. But until that happens, I've listed it as is. Better safe than sorry.

(May. 06, 2019  11:48 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: I'm just sitting back watching people talk themselves into unbanning Destroy', laughing at how destructive that's going to be to the meta.

I would definitely encourage you to try it yourself before making comments like this. Yes, as I've said, there's still a concern, but it's nowhere near the "destructive" level you're guessing.

(May. 07, 2019  5:02 AM)Kei Wrote: Yeah, that's an option too as I don't think it is too threatening. But I don't know how much that would help. I probably should have said both Stamina and Defense in my other post. Even pure Defense types right now don't feel as threatening as they should. Attack is just so good.

I agree that perhaps attack is becoming too potent, which I did question in my writeup before; "I'd entered this event with the mindset that Xtreme' might be becoming a problem and need a hit on the banlist, as it feels like there's nothing that V2 Xtreme' can't beat."

That said, I'm wary of your comment on the viability of Defense when you're not giving Kaiser Kerbeus a look in the slightest in the Toronto meta, and the majority of the winning combos are still very much stamina combos.

The concern is valid and I do agree. I'm just not sure you're suggesting it on the right basis, haha.
Well, I did order it based on being able to read the writing on the wall. So I guess I will test it once it arrives.
One day, burst will probably come so far we'll need a burst classic meta for God and Cho-Z lol
I don't think so. We might get a Burst Limited format that consists of only God and GT layers, since it looks like GT layers just can't beat ChoZ layers. GT is cool but in terms of performance it really does feel like a step backwards. ChoZ will likely never need a limited format.
DeceasedCrab, I think Cho-Z should be in Burst Limited, but only limited amount. I think in Burst Limited should be all seasons, but from God and Cho-Z is limited amount of allowed Beyblade, what don't dominate in tournaments. In God should be banned Balkesh, Spriggan Requiem, Bearing, Atomic and maybe some more? but Cho-Z need more banning. There is not so strong Beyblade too. But what come and what not come in Burst Limite, that decide WBO Organized Play Team.
(May. 07, 2019  11:45 AM)Ash_Ketchum_007 Wrote: Kei, when you said attack is too good, do you mean that the skill cap has reduced (doesn't matter how much)? I'm asking if it is easier than it should be to win. If the answer is no, then I feel like defense and stamina don't need a buff. If something that requires skill is meta, why increase the risk? If everything that is being used has the same skill cap, then focusing on balancing the risk for every type makes sense. But, is that the case? If that's not the case, I would like the beys/ types with the high skill cap to thrive. Also, it's only in the classic format that attack is actually unarguably viable. This is not the case in standard format, right? So, this format could act like a 'compensation' format, where people can both fun and success by playing something that requires skill and isn't boring.

P.S: I don't own any beysUnhappy. I was just posting my opinion.

I think the skill cap is reduced, yes. It is still absolutely present (I saw some battles where people using X' combos should have won, but lost because they didn't launch effectively), but using Attack types is more forgiving in BSC only because the available defensive options are not as strong as the Stamina/Defense hybrids we see in regular BST format.

(May. 08, 2019  12:28 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: It's my opinion that attack is too good because we allow Dash drivers. If attack lost Dash drivers, while Atomic and Xtend-Plus stay banned, the meta would probably be similar to that of the original Dual layer meta, where attack runs the risk of also bursting. Only differences being the Plastic gen remakes and some newer drivers.

I actually like the idea of Burst Classic being the place where drivers that are out-shined by Xt+, At, and X'/Qc' become viable.

Only dash drivers I'd allow is garbage like Merge' and maybe, with testing, Volcanic'.

Yeah, but a meta where you can self-burst with Attack sucks. A lot. I played through it. I would rather us find a way to buff defense while still allowing Dash Drivers (at least Xtreme') than to just ban the Dash Drivers because the original meta back in the day was far too stamina/defense heavy. Dash Drivers are what makes Attack worth playing at all in Beyblade Burst.

(May. 08, 2019  10:24 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: I agree that perhaps attack is becoming too potent, which I did question in my writeup before; "I'd entered this event with the mindset that Xtreme' might be becoming a problem and need a hit on the banlist, as it feels like there's nothing that V2 Xtreme' can't beat."

That said, I'm wary of your comment on the viability of Defense when you're not giving Kaiser Kerbeus a look in the slightest in the Toronto meta, and the majority of the winning combos are still very much stamina combos.

The concern is valid and I do agree. I'm just not sure you're suggesting it on the right basis, haha.

Yeah, my comments were just based on my experience thus far. Obviously, I've mentioned that I still need to test K2. I've been focused mostly on G2 thus far.

The thought has come to my mind now that maybe an option would be to ban Victory Valkyrie. Is there another Layer which is as powerful for Attack in BSC right now? There's many other options which are good, but I feel like V2 overshadows them all for the most part right now.
(May. 07, 2019  11:23 AM)bladekid Wrote:
(May. 07, 2019  5:43 AM)MDK Shady Wrote: I don’t think you understand, gaianon has pretty meh slopes, couple with hoe thin they are it just wont be great on atomic. I used Gainon G2.Polish.Wedge-s for a pure tightness combo, and although it was very tight, it would still consistently burst against v2.h.x’. Wedge-s and eternal-s are tied to have the tightest springs for hasbro, just barley beating bearing, however Gaianon still bursts very easily. So Atomic on Gaianon would fair well,  in god format yes it would be quite broken as many beys have tight slopes, however because classic is focused on dual and basic layers, there is no point in banning hasbro atomic.
What G2 do you have? all of mine are really tight.



My Gaianon also have pretty good slopes.


Also how are wedge/eternal-s the tightest hasbro drivers when they barely beat out bearing?

Aren't Destroy, Hunter and Cycle also tighter than Bearing? (from the top of my head, there's probably more)
(May. 08, 2019  10:59 PM)tubitr Wrote:
(May. 07, 2019  11:23 AM)bladekid Wrote: What G2 do you have? all of mine are really tight.



My Gaianon also have pretty good slopes.


Also how are wedge/eternal-s the tightest hasbro drivers when they barely beat out bearing?

Aren't Destroy, Hunter and Cycle also tighter than Bearing? (from the top of my head, there's probably more)
Not Ds, but definitely Hn, Cy, and other things alike. The thing is that Br gets it's good burst resistance from how little friction it has.
(May. 08, 2019  7:37 PM)Kei Wrote:
(May. 08, 2019  12:28 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: It's my opinion that attack is too good because we allow Dash drivers. If attack lost Dash drivers, while Atomic and Xtend-Plus stay banned, the meta would probably be similar to that of the original Dual layer meta, where attack runs the risk of also bursting. Only differences being the Plastic gen remakes and some newer drivers.

I actually like the idea of Burst Classic being the place where drivers that are out-shined by Xt+, At, and X'/Qc' become viable.

Only dash drivers I'd allow is garbage like Merge' and maybe, with testing, Volcanic'.

Yeah, but a meta where you can self-burst with Attack sucks. A lot. I played through it. I would rather us find a way to buff defense while still allowing Dash Drivers (at least Xtreme') than to just ban the Dash Drivers because the original meta back in the day was far too stamina/defense heavy. Dash Drivers are what makes Attack worth playing at all in Beyblade Burst.

Having at least X' would mean you allow all Dash drivers because X' is the best (besides Ds') and the rest are terrible by comparison. I'd rather allow the worst Dash drivers so it would make certain drivers technically meta, such as Volcanic'.
(May. 08, 2019  7:37 PM)Kei Wrote: I think the skill cap is reduced, yes. It is still absolutely present (I saw some battles where people using X' combos should have won, but lost because they didn't launch effectively), but using Attack types is more forgiving in BSC only because the available defensive options are not as strong as the Stamina/Defense hybrids we see in regular BST format.
But, aren't the knockouts and bursts also less rewarding? That does allow some gap for defense to work, right? It is really difficult to achieve 3 straight burst or knockouts. Also, how good are pure defense combos against attack? Does attack still win the matchup typically? In that case, why not use hunter' as a mobile defense combos? If that works well and the concern is the poor stamina leading to losses against stamina types, then so be it. It is wrong IMO to expect defense/stamina hybrids like BST. Or, maybe the defense combos can have a like driger or q2 which do have decent attack, and then they can deal with the stamina combos.
G2 isn’t tight, it the driver you use it with, if you have a meh driver on G2 it’s gonna burst like crazy.
(May. 09, 2019  9:39 PM)MDK Shady Wrote: G2 isn’t tight, it the driver you use it with, if you have a meh driver on G2 it’s gonna burst like crazy.
Then you don't know what a meh driver is. And that's just not true either, even on R, one of the easiest to burst drivers, G2 can do pretty well against attack.
(May. 09, 2019  9:39 PM)MDK Shady Wrote: G2 isn’t tight, it the driver you use it with, if you have a meh driver on G2 it’s gonna burst like crazy.

Are there any hasbro single/dual layers that are as hard to burst as G2? (except U or J2, maybe Y2) 

Unicrest has pretty good slopes and a much smoother outline than G2 and the layers still have comparable burst resistance...

You might just have an unlucky mold, can't really trust hasbro parts.
(May. 09, 2019  4:44 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote:
(May. 08, 2019  7:37 PM)Kei Wrote: Yeah, but a meta where you can self-burst with Attack sucks. A lot. I played through it. I would rather us find a way to buff defense while still allowing Dash Drivers (at least Xtreme') than to just ban the Dash Drivers because the original meta back in the day was far too stamina/defense heavy. Dash Drivers are what makes Attack worth playing at all in Beyblade Burst.

Having at least X' would mean you allow all Dash drivers because X' is the best (besides Ds') and the rest are terrible by comparison. I'd rather allow the worst Dash drivers so it would make certain drivers technically meta, such as Volcanic'.

The problem with allowing all of the Drivers is that some of them won't be used for Attack Purposes. Accel' and Zephyr' would be way too useful in Tornado Staller combos, since their original variations are already pretty decent. Merge' could replace Unite in KO Defense in some cases, which would be bad because it would become both a KO Defender and a Burst Defender. We don't need Beys that are so good at both Defenses. Fusion' could be decent in Burst Attack combos as well as Blow' and the versatile Accel', which would make them much easier to use. Destroy' is on a completely different level of OP in Burst Classic's terms. It would be disgustingly good for Mobile Defense in both rotations and can also be good for KO and Burst Attack. Maybe Hold' will be banned if it spins more freely than before, but I haven't really paid attention to the wbba Grand Valkyrie videos, so I don't know. What I don't understand is why Jolt' and Volcanic' aren't allowed. Jolt' is already outclassed by Xtreme', Hunter', and Quick' (which will hopefully be added in soon) because of how much easier they are to control. Volcanic' is just a joke that no one would use, so I don't see why it's banned.
(May. 09, 2019  11:33 PM)CitrusNinja3 Wrote:
(May. 09, 2019  4:44 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Having at least X' would mean you allow all Dash drivers because X' is the best (besides Ds') and the rest are terrible by comparison. I'd rather allow the worst Dash drivers so it would make certain drivers technically meta, such as Volcanic'.

The problem with allowing all of the Drivers is that some of them won't be used for Attack Purposes. Accel' and Zephyr' would be way too useful in Tornado Staller combos, since their original variations are already pretty decent. Merge' could replace Unite in KO Defense in some cases, which would be bad because it would become both a KO Defender and a Burst Defender. We don't need Beys that are so good at both Defenses. Fusion' could be decent in Burst Attack combos as well as Blow' and the versatile Accel', which would make them much easier to use. Destroy' is on a completely different level of OP in Burst Classic's terms. It would be disgustingly good for Mobile Defense in both rotations and can also be good for KO and Burst Attack. Maybe Hold' will be banned if it spins more freely than before, but I haven't really paid attention to the wbba Grand Valkyrie videos, so I don't know. What I don't understand is why Jolt' and Volcanic' aren't allowed. Jolt' is already outclassed by Xtreme', Hunter', and Quick' (which will hopefully be added in soon) because of how much easier they are to control. Volcanic' is just a joke that no one would use, so I don't see why it's banned.

Merge' will NEVER replace Unite. Aside from Unite not being viable, Merge is much worse since it's rubber sits lower, and thus makes contact too easily, killing the bey when it's off balance and it's LAD.

Fusion' and Blow' would be perfectly balanced. Blow is too thin, and Fusion would be outclassed in stamina by Revolve and Eternal, so there's a definite trade off.

Volcanic' is a driver I would use, but it's got a very high skill cap. Besides the fact no one would use it, I'd totally allow it.

Really, you'd need to look out for Zeta', Accel', Zephyr', Reboot', and Hold'. Ban the rubber (X', Hn', Jl', Qc') Dash drivers and Destroy', unban Merge', Fusion', Blow', and Volcanic', and we'd see more variety out of attack.
(May. 11, 2019  1:56 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote:
(May. 09, 2019  11:33 PM)CitrusNinja3 Wrote: The problem with allowing all of the Drivers is that some of them won't be used for Attack Purposes. Accel' and Zephyr' would be way too useful in Tornado Staller combos, since their original variations are already pretty decent. Merge' could replace Unite in KO Defense in some cases, which would be bad because it would become both a KO Defender and a Burst Defender. We don't need Beys that are so good at both Defenses. Fusion' could be decent in Burst Attack combos as well as Blow' and the versatile Accel', which would make them much easier to use. Destroy' is on a completely different level of OP in Burst Classic's terms. It would be disgustingly good for Mobile Defense in both rotations and can also be good for KO and Burst Attack. Maybe Hold' will be banned if it spins more freely than before, but I haven't really paid attention to the wbba Grand Valkyrie videos, so I don't know. What I don't understand is why Jolt' and Volcanic' aren't allowed. Jolt' is already outclassed by Xtreme', Hunter', and Quick' (which will hopefully be added in soon) because of how much easier they are to control. Volcanic' is just a joke that no one would use, so I don't see why it's banned.

Merge' will NEVER replace Unite. Aside from Unite not being viable, Merge is much worse since it's rubber sits lower, and thus makes contact too easily, killing the bey when it's off balance and it's LAD.

Fusion' and Blow' would be perfectly balanced. Blow is too thin, and Fusion would be outclassed in stamina by Revolve and Eternal, so there's a definite trade off.

Volcanic' is a driver I would use, but it's got a very high skill cap. Besides the fact no one would use it, I'd totally allow it.

Really, you'd need to look out for Zeta', Accel', Zephyr', Reboot', and Hold'. Ban the rubber (X', Hn', Jl', Qc') Dash drivers and Destroy', unban Merge', Fusion', Blow', and Volcanic', and we'd see more variety out of attack.
What do you mean unite isn't viable? It's the second best driver for KO defense only beaten by bite, which is rare and isn't available for hasbro. Also, it think the whole point of allowing dash drivers is so they can make attack better and reduce the self burst risk, that's why the rubber dash drivers are allowed.
(May. 11, 2019  3:28 AM)bladekid Wrote:
(May. 11, 2019  1:56 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Merge' will NEVER replace Unite. Aside from Unite not being viable, Merge is much worse since it's rubber sits lower, and thus makes contact too easily, killing the bey when it's off balance and it's LAD.

Fusion' and Blow' would be perfectly balanced. Blow is too thin, and Fusion would be outclassed in stamina by Revolve and Eternal, so there's a definite trade off.

Volcanic' is a driver I would use, but it's got a very high skill cap. Besides the fact no one would use it, I'd totally allow it.

Really, you'd need to look out for Zeta', Accel', Zephyr', Reboot', and Hold'. Ban the rubber (X', Hn', Jl', Qc') Dash drivers and Destroy', unban Merge', Fusion', Blow', and Volcanic', and we'd see more variety out of attack.
What do you mean unite isn't viable? It's the second best driver for KO defense only beaten by bite, which is rare and isn't available for hasbro. Also, it think the whole point of allowing dash drivers is so they can make attack better and reduce the self burst risk, that's why the rubber dash drivers are allowed.

When was the last time Unite topped a tournament ever? The driver has been outclassed for a while. Also, I would say Keep is possibly as good as Byte, but I haven't tested. They just seem similar.

You shouldn't say what Dash drivers are supposed to do. You should say "Do Dash drivers make attack too strong?" and "How can we balance it?" Attack was a pretty solid type during Dual Layer. Dash drivers are pushing them over the edge. We should be doing a case by case basis for Dash drivers to make the most balanced and diverse metagame.

In a hypothetical, rubber Dash drivers are banned because they make attack too strong, but some of the other Dash drivers aren't banned. In this scenario, I could use Xtreme (not Dash) for the most power possible OR I can Hold' if I want burst resistance in exchange for power.
(May. 11, 2019  8:33 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote:
(May. 11, 2019  3:28 AM)bladekid Wrote: What do you mean unite isn't viable? It's the second best driver for KO defense only beaten by bite, which is rare and isn't available for hasbro. Also, it think the whole point of allowing dash drivers is so they can make attack better and reduce the self burst risk, that's why the rubber dash drivers are allowed.

When was the last time Unite topped a tournament ever? The driver has been outclassed for a while. Also, I would say Keep is possibly as good as Byte, but I haven't tested. They just seem similar.

You shouldn't say what Dash drivers are supposed to do. You should say "Do Dash drivers make attack too strong?" and "How can we balance it?" Attack was a pretty solid type during Dual Layer. Dash drivers are pushing them over the edge. We should be doing a case by case basis for Dash drivers to make the most balanced and diverse metagame.

In a hypothetical, rubber Dash drivers are banned because they make attack too strong, but some of the other Dash drivers aren't banned. In this scenario, I could use Xtreme (not Dash) for the most power possible OR I can Hold' if I want burst resistance in exchange for power.
But the self burst risk of the regular KO attack driver is definitely a thing. Attack types aren't supposed to self burst, that's why they have good teeth. Also, it's not that U is outclassed, it's just people don't know what KO defense is, and it's not like an attack of stamina bey that have a chance at beating anything, it's useful, but a bit niche. Also, IMO, attack needs to be OP because not only the skill it requires, but the luck and risk. It's high risk, high reward, albeit at less of a risk with a dash driver, but still. Not many people have tried a good KO defense or anti attack bey against X' combos.
I did some testing with V2, and while it's certainly one of the better Attack options in BSC I wouldn't say it needs to be banned. I think that people are still a bit stuck in the Dual Layer era mindset that put way too much emphasis on the Layer of the combo, where you could get away with putting a more defensive Layer on a Stamina Driver and call it a "defense type" because Attack was played infrequently despite being in a relatively good state compared to Burst Standard nowadays.

Victory Valkyrie Knuckle Quick' vs. Wyvern Heavy Revolve
V2.K.Qc': 15 wins (9 KO, 6 Burst)
W.H.R: 5 wins (all OS)
V2.K.Qc' win rate: 75%

Victory Valkyrie Knuckle Quick' vs. Dark Deathscyther Gravity Defense
V2.K.Qc': 13 wins (5 KO, 8 Burst)
D2.G.D: 7 wins (all OS)
V2.K.Qc' win rate: 65%

^These two were considered top tier "defense" combos back in the day, but as you can see in figure A with a plastic Driver they can't really hold their ground against a rubber Dash Driver. I also did a benchmark against a pure Stamina combo to see how it compared:

Victory Valkyrie Knuckle Quick' vs. Acid Anubis Knuckle Revolve
V2.K.Qc': 17 wins (7 KO, 10 Burst)
A2.K.R: 3 wins (2 OS, 1 KO)
V2.K.Qc' win rate: 85%

Aside from one freak recoil KO, as long as I got the launch right V2 (for all of these tests, I omitted self-KOs or accidental tornado stalls) would almost always burst or KO A2. This also brings up the very real point that KO Attack is the most difficult type to use - in a tournament, this combo could easily lose 0-3 with 3 bad launches. So, even if V2 on X'/Hn'/Qc'/Jl' is a bit overpowered, it's balanced out to an extent by the skill cap required to use it.

Victory Valkyrie Knuckle Quick' vs. Unicrest Gravity Unite
V2.K.Qc': 7 wins (1 KO, 6 Burst)
U.G.U: 13 wins (all OS)
1 tie (double burst)
V2.K.Qc' win rate: 35%

Victory Valkyrie Knuckle Quick' vs. Gigant Gaia Gravity Keep
V2.K.Qc': 6 wins (3 KO, 3 Burst)
G2.G.Kp: 14 wins (11 OS, 2 KO, 1 Burst)
V2.K.Qc' win rate: 30%

I personally think that G2 outclasses K2 in every way, I also tried Neptune on Kp and it was alright so my options for KO Defense in Classic are a bit limited (Unicrest actually performed a lot better than I expected, until now I thought it was only melancholy defensively because I had only been using it on plastic Drivers), since I haven't had a chance to explore some of the Hasbro Layers that are supposedly really good for Defense (Evipero, Yegdrion Y2, Orpheus(?), and maybe a few others). But I think that once people adjust more of these combos will emerge.
Here's something I need to test. Is Unite on a defensive layer a decent counter to a rubber attack layer?

If my RBV15s ever freaking arrive, I can test them against Orpheus.
(May. 21, 2019  9:00 AM)Ash_Ketchum_007 Wrote: How good is needle for defense?

Better for Stable Attack. It lacks Stamina and LAD. And as we know, people will prefer orbit and other drivers of the sort over Needle.
(May. 19, 2019  1:18 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: Here's something I need to test. Is Unite on a defensive layer a decent counter to a rubber attack layer?

If my RBV15s ever freaking arrive, I can test them against Orpheus.
Rubber attack layer? What beys in classic have rubber on the layers?