(Mar. 12, 2019 10:08 PM)Wombat Wrote: Since you asked so politely, I'd be glad to provide an explanation for now.
Accel' and Blow', similarly to Zephyr', are far too exploitable in Tornado Stalling Stamina combos to be allowed in Classic. Having a combo that's capable of outspinning most Stamina types and avoiding stationary Burst Attackers (which is the most reliable way to counter stationary Stamina combos) while also performing well against Xtreme' and Jolt' based KO Attackers (the primary counter to Tornado Stallers) due to the stronger spring of the ' Driver makes them unhealthy for the format. Aside from a few lucky KOs, I couldn't get any Classic-legal combo, aside from like, Dragoon on Eternal, to defeat Guardian Kerbeus/Chaos Gravity Zephyr'. Back in 2015, Odin Heavy Blow was a semi-popular variant of Odin Heavy Defense, and it would only become more powerful with Blow'.
Merge' and Volcanic' could potentially be unbanned in the future, it's just a matter of making sure that there is no combo that could make them overpowered. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would - Takara Tomy had the right idea by making only Attack and Balance Drivers have ' versions - but even then, having a Driver that's not completely dedicated to KO Attack and makes you basically unburstable in a format where bursting is relatively frequent seems like it might be too much of an advantage.
Let me preface this with the fact that I haven't played in a Burst Classic event yet, and have done some testing, but not as extensively as some others in this thread for it. However, I do have a good knowledge of many parts and also played extensively back when Burst was released, so these are my impressions at the moment on this issue:
I think you're overestimating the stamina of Accel', Zephyr', and Blow' here. The best stamina types will not lose to Tornado Stallers. I'm fairly certain of that. Back in the day I don't think I ever saw something like D.S.A win a match against something like D.H.D. I even have recorded instances in my battle log of me winning 3-0 or 3-1 against Deathscyther Accel combos using Defense and Revolve-based stamina combos back during 2015/early 2016. And also a few instances of Accel or Xtreme-based attackers beating stallers. There's a reason why Tornado Stallers have always been basically a niche type.
And if anything, encouraging more use of Dragoon/Dragoon F is a positive as in my (admittedly little) testing so far, it isn't very consistent against other Stamina types generally speaking (depending on the context, of course).
They might be able to do well against attackers on Drivers like Xtreme', but things like X' are going to be a lot quicker, so they certainly aren't invincible. A key difference now that wasn't present in the past during the beginning of Beyblade Burst when Tornado Stallers saw some use is our KO ruling for when Beyblades bounce off the back wall of the exit; I feel like there would be more KOs for more aggressive attackers against Tornado Stallers using Drivers like X' because of this.
Volcanic' and I think Merge' also moves even quicker, so I feel like they could handle A'/Z'/B' combos too. Would need to test, though.
Even if pure attack types have some trouble against them (as they naturally would against a mobile opponent versus a stationary one), I think that it would still be balanced by the fact that the Tornado Stallers won't OS the top stamina combos.
I would also argue that especially for Burst Classic the most reliable way to counter stationary stamina combos generally speaking is to use Xtreme', not a stationary attack combo.
Right now stationary defense combos don't stand much of a chance against Xtreme' attackers, so I feel like allowing for more options with mobile defense combos might not be a bad thing. It would encourage more usage of both left-spin and right-spin stamina types which keeps the door open for pure attack types, while giving defense an arguably needed buff.
I'm sure that things like gK.H.Z' can OS a lot of lower tier stamina types, but as always we have to be looking at things objectively here in terms of what is going to be viable at the top level of the format.
It's also important to remember that attack types can make use of things like A'/Z' as well; they are attack Drivers, after all.
I do understand the concern regarding how having a Driver which arguably isn't completely dedicated to KO Attack (I do think that things like A' however are better suited to Burst Attack though since they last for longer and can get more hits over time) that makes you basically unburstable could be an issue. Thankfully however, we don't offer 2 Points for Burst Finishes at the moment for Burst Classic, so that issue doesn't feel as critical to me as it might otherwise.
My feeling is that given we are in an experimental stage we should be allowing for as many parts as reasonably possible (and I think allowing for all Dash Drivers except Ds' is reasonable to want to test in this format) and then adjusting the ban list at the end of the experimental period based on our experience and the results submitted from each event.
I mean, as a comparison take a look at the original ban lists for the
Metal Fight Limited Format. Jade banned? RS banned? Libra unbanned? Omega unbanned on v1.1? All crazy looking back. But that's okay because formats like this are meant to evolve and change. I could be completely wrong about the Dash Drivers we're speaking about here and they could be OP, but I think it would be beneficial to test out all Dash Drivers minus Ds' being unbanned in at least a couple tournaments just to see how it goes.
So, I'll talk to @[~Mana~] about this and maybe we can try it at
IT'S TIME TO RIP IT! next weekend since I know he agreed with trying this out at some events.