Revise the stadium banlist!

Poll: How should the Stadium list be changed?

Allow Burst stadiums for other gens
33.33%
13
Ban Stadiums missing the Tornado Ridge for MFB
30.77%
12
All of the above
30.77%
12
None of the above
5.13%
2
Total: 100% 39 vote(s)
There's an exceedingly important but under-appreciated element to Beyblade Stadiums - the Tornado Ridge. The events at Beyblade North 2016 made me realize that the list of tournament-legal Stadiums needs to be altered substantially, at least for MFB formats. Attack types and Tornado Stallers especially make heavy use of the Tornado Ridge; these types of combos are frequently used in competition, meaning that the Tornado Ridge is also, naturally, an essential component of competitive Beyblade. How does AN 2016 tie into this? Simply put, it was the most recent competitive event that featured my own red Sonokong Beystadium Attack Type. Unfortunately, this particular mold of Stadium (which I believe is the mold that all SK Attack stadiums use) has a different Tornado Ridge than your usual clear or black Takara stadium. It's noticeably less pronounced, making it easier for Beyblades to simply slide over the edge - which is bad news for anyone using aggressive tips. During both free play and the actual tournament, I was definitely able to launch substantially harder in the other stadiums than I could in my own, without fear of running out of the stadium uncontrollably. The thicker ridge on the other Stadiums allowed me to do things in those Stadiums that were simply not possible in my own, and I recall several other Bladers who were assigned to my own Stadium discovering the limitations of the weaker ridge the hard way.

Where I'm going with this is summarized in this post, which reminded me of the problems I and others have had (whether they realized the Stadium was largely at fault or not):

(Jul. 29, 2016  5:46 PM)Cake Wrote:
(Jul. 29, 2016  4:47 PM)RDF3 Wrote:
(Jul. 23, 2016  7:07 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote:
I have found Gravity to be not as overpowering as it used to be. Screw Pisces is basically on par. #UnbanGravity

He raised a really good point here, even if it isn't related to the Dark Knight discussion.
With regards to stadium legality and testing bias, I'm all for more tests, and I agree that although the BB-10 is the preferred stadium, dismissing tests in other legal Stadiums is unfair and damaging to the community as a whole. However, I strongly believe that Stadiums with inadequate or completely missing Tornado Ridges should not be legal for tournaments. This includes the currently legal red floor BB-46 and Standard type Beystadium, as well as my own Sonokong Attack type Beystadium. This leaves the Triple Type, Super Control, and Takara Attack-type Stadium as the legal options, though I'm open to the Burst stadium being legalized in the interest of making it easier to obtain a legal Stadium.

According to the latest edition of the Universal Rules sheet, the Beystadium Attack and Balance types (plus the red-floor Standard Type, which is functionally the same as the Balance type) are currently legal for tournaments and testing in all non-Burst formats. This includes my own sub-par Sonokong stadium, and the Balance type Stadium doesn't even have a Tornado Ridge at all. The Triple Battle Type and Super Control Type do both have ridges, so I have no complaint there. But given how important the Tornado Ridge is to competitive Beyblade play, I see no reason why Stadiums with missing or inadequate Tornado Ridges should be legal for tournament play. In addition, I'm in favor of the proposal to make the Burst stadium legal for other generations of Beyblade, as though a proper Takara Beystadium Attack type would be preferable, the Burst stadium is not so much more cumbersome that it would be unacceptable for use if no better options are available.
We had a similar issue with a SonoKong BB-10 in Montreal. I would definitely be down for banning it, since every player complained about it.

All of these suggestions sound good to me.

Also, moving to WBO General.
(Jun. 09, 2016  3:37 PM)Time Wrote: @[Wombat] @[loyd87] I was having launcher problems from the beginning of the tournament and only about 4 matches in did I realize that my string wasn't coming all the way out (it was a good 2-3 inches shorter than others' in comparison) so my scythe combo got outspun by a couple of things it normally takes down without much trouble. Brad was entirely borrowing parts from me so I knew that he was going to be using a Pegasis RF setup and I just kind of pigeonholed myself thinking Bakushin LT RSF was going to be enough to handle it. Although, admittedly this was played in the very problematic yellow stadium (we were not yet aware it was a problem). Once I was aware that the yellow stadium had a ridge that was very likely to be hopped that pushed me away from all attack and stallers (I believe I played 5 of my 8 matches in this stadium). However, in the clear stadium against both meteo r145 cf and lightning ____ gcf my scythe staller did tank its way to match wins (they were 3-2 though and I'm pretty sure I was down 0-2 in both of them to start). So then against loyd using his meteo giga flat I had my ltsc, Duo MB, unfortunately unbeknownst to all, the layer of paint on top also made the bowl of the stadium shallower which led to my Duo scraping out well before we even got to see who would have gotten the os (somewhere close to a quarter of stamina left). In my match against MissingNo. I was Earth 230 MB and he was Ronin Killerken BGrin. We both launched, and on the first hit of each round I flew out of the stadium. To say that I'd be a proponent of banning the yellow stadium from tournament play would be a bit of an understatement. All in all though, it was still a really fun tournament and I'm a huge fan of the deck system, definitely eliminates a lot of the luck factor and helps reward the most skilled players.
I would definitely ban the Sonokong BB-10s, but I wouldn't go as far as allowing Burst Stadium to be legal for MFB. The Burst Stadium's Tornado Ridge is a bit smaller in diameter, and a lot thicker, as a results, KOs are less likely to happen (as we all know).
I never really seen Sonokong BB-10 so I can't say anything but I trust cake's option so i'm also up for it's ban. As far as Burst stadium for MFB. I would say I don't think it would be the best idea. well if you see Burst's Stadium carefully it have smaller area where beys spin, super think tornado ridge [which is actually good thing XD], slopes of stadium are not steep enough for MFB to keep flower pattern [I found that, with less bank then how much we do with MFB i can still get simmular flower pattern. I could be wrong though, can someone can confirm this?] and THAT COVER. I mean it just don't work as well as our Legendary BB-10.
Flying Defense can't be KO'd in the burst stadium because of the cover right? I've also found it super hard to KO anything on WB2's Shaft so...
I think the burst stadium should be legalized as @[Mitsu] tested it and find results similar to that in a bb-10
As much as I dislike the Sonokong BB-10 I'm not down for completely banning it, due to most of the reasons outlined by Angry Face here

(Jun. 15, 2016  3:46 PM)Dracomageat Wrote:
(Jun. 13, 2016  3:59 AM)Angry Face Wrote: I don't actually own a black Attack Type BeyStadium, but I do have two red ones from Sonokong. Their tornado ridges are definitely not as well defined as the ones from Takara-Tomy, but I've personally adjusted to tornado stalling in those stadiums, so much that the soft gradient doesn't even phase my launches anymore. Honestly, I love playing in the TT stadiums at tournaments because they're so much more forgiving of my poorer launches, ha ha.

Newer members might not remember, but a few years ago, Sonokong's Attack Type and other type BeyStadiums were considerably cheaper than Takara-Tomy's, which made them great budget-buys for emerging communities. Since no more Attack Type BeyStadiums are being produced, though, all of them regardless of manufacturer will only continue to increase in rarity. If you can't perform a particular launch in this type of stadium, request the host doesn't use them if there are enough extra Takara-Tomy ones, as we've done in the past here in VA. However, to make all of these existing stadiums illegal outright due to a difference in molding so minor that some practice would allow one to overcome, I think, would definitely do more harm than good.

Likewise my stadium is clear, not black, but it is a TT Attack Type stadium. I was not aware of any discrepencies when I got it but there does, in fact, appear to be a minor gradient change just over half way up the main play area. In addition, the inner tornado ridge is indeed shallower than the external ridge around the exits and both do appear to be andled outwards slightly, with a rounded top edge.
I cannot compare these factors to a TT version as I simply do not have that kind of money to chuck at stadia but that just ties in to my agreement with Angry Face's above statements.

If the difference between the stadia is as stated then by all means ban the use of Sonokong stadia when TT versions are present or create some kind of preferentiallity clause but banning their use outright would disadvantage so many communities over what appear to be comparitively small problems.
Unless you want people playing in the Octagon Arena.

As he said, the Sonokong BB-10 can be adjusted to with some practice (yes I realize this is the same argument I use for supporting the legalization of the Burst Stadium), and was also a budget buy for many Bladers a while back. The differences between the Takara-Tomy and Sonokong BB-10s are so subtle that I don't think the community at large was aware of them until the discussion following Time's post about the Montreal tournament. If the Sonokong BB-10 is banned completely, then that could definitely cause confusion in regions where none of the players are aware of the differences between the two, or only have the Sonokong BB-10 and nothing to compare it to.

I think Dracomageat's idea of a "preferentiality clause", where if both brands of BB-10 are present, the BB-10 is always used over the Sonokong BB-10, but the Sonokong one is legal if there are no TT versions present.

(Aug. 05, 2016  12:13 AM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: I never really seen Sonokong BB-10 so I can't say anything but I trust cake's option so i'm also up for it's ban. As far as Burst stadium for MFB. I would say I don't think it would be the best idea. well if you see Burst's Stadium carefully it have smaller area where beys spin, super think tornado ridge [which is actually good thing XD], slopes of stadium are not steep enough for MFB to keep flower pattern [I found that, with less bank then how much we do with MFB i can still get simmular flower pattern. I could be wrong though, can someone can confirm this?] and THAT COVER. I mean it just don't work as well as our Legendary BB-10.

Yes, the Burst Standard Stadium does have some small, yet significant differences from the Takara Tomy BB-10. However, I don't see why that would make it unplayable for MFB formats. Like you said, the Tornado Ridge is a bit thicker than the BB-10 (which is also kinda the other problem we're trying to address here), but people who play Burst regularly already have grown accustomed to launching with the cover in the way and after that it's just a simple adjustment of your launch angle and RF-based Attackers should be able to keep the flower pattern just fine.

Personally even without playing or practicing in either stadium very frequently I have both of the angles down to muscle memory.

(Jul. 23, 2016  7:07 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote:

While the attitude problem he's talking about unfortunately isn't as easily fixed, I actually remember having a similar run-in with someone else over the stadium topic a few years ago. Can someone give a legitimate reason why all tournament legal stadiums are not valid for testing, and only the BB-10 is?

(Aug. 05, 2016  12:20 AM)Shirayuki Wrote: Flying Defense can't be KO'd in the burst stadium because of the cover right? I've also found it super hard to KO anything on WB2's Shaft so...

This is actually a solid point (I think). I'm not too sure how to respond to it though, haha. I think Plastic Tactic II was played in the Burst Stadium, so do any of the Montreal players have some thoughts on this (other than 'damn, why didn't I think to exploit that during the tournament', haha)?
Thanks for sharing your experience Cake. While I have no experience with the Sonokong BB-10s, I'm definitely on board with legalizing the B-09. When I compared the BB-10 with it when I did Attack vs. Balance and Stamina tests, there were no drastic differences. The rebound hardly ever came in to play and when it did, it only had negative effects on the Beyblade that re-entered the Stadium (usually being lighter in weight). We could always apply a rule that gives a round loss to any Beyblade that enters one of the three pockets, but I'm not sure if we'd want to go there. I would imagine small complications coming out of it. What do the rest of you think?

Also, didn't see the All of the above option in the poll. Much more on the side of that!
Wombat

It's not like there's a rule in place that says you can only test in BB-10 it's just that it's pretty much always done in BB-10 because it's the best stadium and any serious players will own one. Also it's not that likely said combos will be used in other stadiums in a tourney unless there's a shortage of BB-10's at an event.
As much as I like having two unique tournament-legal stadiums (the BB-46 and Super Control), I would have to agree that the current legal stadium list should be looked over and potentially revised. While the Super Control performs almost identically to the BB-10 due to its tornado ridge and pockets that substitute for walls, I personally don't feel comfortable playing certain types of customizations (particularly tornado stallers) in the BB-46 or even using it when I host since the results don't always match up with the BB-10 standard. At the same time, I tend to use the BB-10 and the B-09 almost interchangeably in my informal tests and would love to see the latter legalized for MFB official play since it not only limits the amount of equipment that hosts need to buy, but would also make setting up for multiple tournaments easier.

tl;dr I think this proposal is long overdue and am certainly on board with the two primary suggestions being considered. Thanks Cake!
Now while I agree about banning all stadiums with little if any presence of a tornado ridge, I dislike the idea of using the Burst stadium with anything other than the intended format. In my experience, a decent amount of (At least) MFB knockouts actually have happened due to being knocked over the walls. And even in Burst battles, the cups over the exits have been used to "wall save" someone from loss. Both of these could lead to a difference of the metagame based off of whether of not the BB-10 or B-9 is more available.
From my own experience, the B-09 is pretty uncomfortable to launch inside of, as I usually launch attackers towards the outer edge of the BB-10, something that the B-09 really restricts and I'm not very fond of that. Agreed with what earthwolf1404 said (and possibly others?) I dislike the idea of using the Burst Stadium for MFB, as it is not the intended stadium that is supposed to be used for the much larger and heavier MFB's.

Agree on a banning for BB-46, though.
The thing about the sonokong bb-10 is that in the one tournament I've ever went to, alot of the attack battles ended with the attack type getting a self stadium out
Wombat Wrote:This is actually a solid point (I think). I'm not too sure how to respond to it though, haha. I think Plastic Tactic II was played in the Burst Stadium, so do any of the Montreal players have some thoughts on this (other than 'damn, why didn't I think to exploit that during the tournament', haha)?

We had only Plastics stadiums for Plastic Tactic II. We briefly played with Burst in Burst stadiums afterwards but I do not remember anyone using Plastics in them.



I always encouraged people to test in other stadiums, but in a separate topic, to really highlight the difference.
(Aug. 07, 2016  6:30 AM)LMAO Wrote: From my own experience, the B-09 is pretty uncomfortable to launch inside of, as I usually launch attackers towards the outer edge of the BB-10, something that the B-09 really restricts and I'm not very fond of that. Agreed with what earthwolf1404 said (and possibly others?) I dislike the idea of using the Burst Stadium for MFB, as it is not the intended stadium that is supposed to be used for the much larger and heavier MFB's.

Agree on a banning for BB-46, though.

And the BB-10 wasn't intended for Plastics and HMS.
If that's allowed, why not be able to use the Burst stadium?
I know the counter argument will be "no one has the old Plastics stadiums", I understand that, but there's going to come a time where people will want to play MFB with no access to a BB-10.
Yeah well the difference is that BB-10 works well for plastics and HMS whereas other people here have said differently about using burst attack stadium for MFB. I find the launching thing that LMAO said to be true so it's an issue that would make me not want it to be legal for MFB. Also not that I think anyone should be excluded from the conversation but you don't even own a burst stadium do you? Considering that I don't think your comments really have any weight.

As for the one day BB-10 won't be available stance considering plastics and HMS stadiums are still around now I don't think you can definitely say that the same won't be the case for BB-10.
(Aug. 07, 2016  9:03 AM)Neo Wrote:
(Aug. 07, 2016  6:30 AM)LMAO Wrote: From my own experience, the B-09 is pretty uncomfortable to launch inside of, as I usually launch attackers towards the outer edge of the BB-10, something that the B-09 really restricts and I'm not very fond of that. Agreed with what earthwolf1404 said (and possibly others?) I dislike the idea of using the Burst Stadium for MFB, as it is not the intended stadium that is supposed to be used for the much larger and heavier MFB's.

Agree on a banning for BB-46, though.

And the BB-10 wasn't intended for Plastics and HMS.
If that's allowed, why not be able to use the Burst stadium?
I know the counter argument will be "no one has the old Plastics stadiums", I understand that, but there's going to come a time where people will want to play MFB with no access to a BB-10.
Well, aren't some plastics too wide to be able to knock out in a burst stadium?
Burst might be getting a translucid SonoKong BeyStadium Attack Type by the way, so we can confirm whether it is a matter of general mould or of paint.
Was the yellow stadium that you played in actually painted though? During the time when I had my black TAKARA-TOMY BB-10 I never noticed any paint wearing or chipping off, and all the numerous blue/pink Sonokong ones I've seen in tournaments don't show signs of this either. While I wasn't around when they were originally released so I don't know about them to the same depth you do, I always figured they were just colored plastic and not actually painted?
(Aug. 25, 2016  11:54 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Burst might be getting a translucid SonoKong BeyStadium Attack Type by the way, so we can confirm whether it is a matter of general mould or of paint.

whaaaaaat?
Well paint would thin a ridge. Why would SonoKong use a different mould than TAKARA-TOMY's? It may just be coloured plastic in itself, but it is worth checking whether the normal translucid BeyStadium Attack Type by SonoKong is any different.
(Aug. 26, 2016  1:04 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Well paint would thin a ridge. Why would SonoKong use a different mould than TAKARA-TOMY's? It may just be coloured plastic in itself, but it is worth checking whether the normal translucid BeyStadium Attack Type by SonoKong is any different.

It might just be the quality of the plastic they used.
There are significant differences in the shape of Takara Tomy and Sonokong stadium molds' floors, even beyond the different Tornado Ridges. Also, my red Sonokong stadium is not painted - the plastic is just red.

Here's a quick MS Paint sketch I whipped up to describe the differences between the two:

[Image: f80JnXB.png]

The Sonokong mold has a slightly shorter/less vertical/more rounded Tornado Ridge than the TT version does, and there is an added element to the floor shape that doesn't exist on the Takara mold; the floor levels off from a curve to a flat slope at a lower angle for about 3/4" (19mm) before the Tornado Ridge. This change in slope is subtle, but has a noticeable effect on the movement of aggressive tips that move across it; it is also visible by reflecting light off of the Stadium floor at the right angle, and can be felt when you move your finger across it.

Here's a picture of my stadium, held at the right angle to make the change in slope very clear:

[Image: whYVPl4.jpg]

This and the softer ridge are not present on any Takara stadium I've seen, so it definitely appears that Sonokong used different molds to produce their Attack type stadiums.

EDIT: Interesting, I didn't realize that the Beywiki article mentioned the two-stage slope already... I assumed that it was unknown because every black and clear Stadium (presumably TT) I can recall playing in hasn't had that feature...

You can clearly see that the BBP DX set stadium does not have the two-stage ridge, though:
[Image: latest?cb=20110806180720]