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MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion

Aug. 29, 2013  1:59 AM
 
@Shining God MS: The only problem with that, is that you're now creating an anti-attacker. Yes, it works, but in the category of anti-attack, wheels like Diablo work much better, so if you're gonna go with an aggressive tip, you should use a metal wheel that can utilize smash as well (IE Girago). Smile However, If you're just sitting there, Duo is obviously the better choice, because you don't need the smash.

Time: Duo is absolutely amazing for defense... It pulls win rate against Wyvang attackers that are around 80% higher than Reviser sometimes. It can also OS just about any defense type out there, and, on a side note, can pretty much OS absolutely anything spinning to the left. Duo is definitely a keeper...

@Kyler_the best: LTACs need more testing by more users... I believe I'm the only one who has formally tested synchrom LTACs... but I would like to see a couple on future lists if more users get the same results. Smile

shinobuXD: I completely forgot about that! I had it on my brain to add Wyvang earlier today... Thanks for the reminder. Tongue_out As for MF-M on Duo, you're totally right... just something I overlooked. Added and added. Wink

Anyone object to putting Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF up there?

Well, if not, here's the edited list:
Spoiler (Click to View)

The only edits I made are that I added Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF for balance, and fixed the metal face on Duo.
Aug. 29, 2013  2:22 AM
 
@theblackdragon
Synchrom LTAC's are definitely something I would love to test myself and love to see others tests. I'm kinda busy so I don't have to much time to test. I think something like Begirados would do well (maybe even synchromed with it self). What would you suppose the best track would be?
Aug. 29, 2013  2:31 AM
 
(Aug. 29, 2013  2:22 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: @theblackdragon
Synchrom LTAC's are definitely something I would love to test myself and love to see others tests. I'm kinda busy so I don't have to much time to test. I think something like Begirados would do well (maybe even synchromed with it self). What would you suppose the best track would be?

IDK... anything 105 or below will do.

But I've already done tests with a Begaridos LTAC right here. Wink

I like it, but Wyvang and Balro do a bit better IMO.
Aug. 29, 2013  2:32 AM
 
I understand everyone thinks it has no Smash but... from my tests... it got a whopping 40% against, how can I say this... a moving tank i.e Girago SA165MF. Even though it still lost, it still KOed. And I don't mean just little pushes, I mean smacking it out of the stadium! I know you can get different results but, I just want tests against Phantom, to clarify if my theory is right or wrong.
Aug. 29, 2013  2:36 AM
 
(Aug. 28, 2013  10:39 PM)ShinobuXD Wrote: EDIT: uh guys, ever hear of Fusion Hades lol?

Oh wow, that is very confusing.
Sorry about that, honestly forgot about Fusion Hades lol.

I am really fascinated with the idea of Balro Balro 100/90/85 RF/R2F.
Hope to see some tests for it soon as it seems like it would be quite devastating!
Aug. 29, 2013  2:41 AM
 
Yeah that does sound awesome!Smile I'll try it out this weekend!Smile
Aug. 29, 2013  2:59 AM
 
@Shining God MS: That's really, really wierd. Confused I've tried it and so far it hasn't KOed Phantom W145WD once...

As for testing on LTAC's, why don't you guys move that discussion here, just so we don't deviate from the topic. I've done quite a few formal tests on LTAC's myself, both in that thread and here. Wink

Opinions on the list?
Aug. 29, 2013  3:00 AM
 
I have absolutely no clue how you're getting those results either. It's a circle.
Aug. 29, 2013  3:01 AM
 
Hmmm... that's a little weird Confused, but I guess it's just my launching, I can give a benchmark if you guys want.
Aug. 29, 2013  1:20 PM
 
Sure, I'd like to see it.
Aug. 30, 2013  1:20 AM
 
(Aug. 28, 2013  7:33 PM)theblackdragon Wrote: Alright, I think I'll give this a shot Wink

Spoiler (Click to View)

I just added the colors for fun. XD

A few changes to Ingulit's draft I've changed...
1. I've removed Bahamdia Dragooon SP230GF. I really see absolutely no application for that combo to fill... it loses to absolutely everything I've ever put it up against every single time.
No complaints here. I personally have never done anything remarkable with that custom, I just remembered some people pulling redic stuff with it in tests. I don't mind dropping it from the draft.

2. I've added Genbull for defense.
That's good in my book Grin

3. I've removed Basalt TR145R2F and replaced it with Girago BD145RF
Fantastic, good change.

4. I've added a couple extra tracks to use with Balro in the attack section.
More are always welcome when appropriate Grin

5. I've outlined which tracks to use with Wyvang
Very good, long overdue. Didn't some people like H145 too?

6. I've removed Killerken Reviser on E230. I see no reason to put the higher recoil killerken on the bottom when you can just put reviser there and stick killerken on top...
This change is phenomenal lol, as weird as this might sound this might be my favorite change you made

7. I've removed E230 in the Duo defense section... I really, really have no success with Duo on E230. It's much too light to stay standing, IMO, and because of the disc on E230 you're not even utilizing its best quality, its incredibly smooth shape. I just see no reason to use it on E230.
I was hesitant about this at first, but your explanation was convincing. It really does remove the point of Duo's place in the meta if it isn't making contact with attackers. I like it.

8. I've removed Phantom 160PD. I've tried it with 160D, and it just doesn't have as much success as it does with Duo. Even Ingulit said in his thread that the track-bottom setup only really has any synergy with Duo.
I agree with taking it off of Phantom, but I'm confused about Duo 160PD; you took it off the list, but here it sounds like you think it is good for Duo (which I agree with)?

9. I've removed SR200TB from the phantom section... IMO TB doesn't help Phantom's pure endurance, and Phantom doesn't seem to benefit from TB nearly as much as Genbull does; Plus, there are no formal tests done on the combo anyway. XD
That's totally fine, yeah. Why did you take TH170 off of Phantom, though?

10. I put Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF up there for balance.
Yesssss, it's a phenomenal custom, I like it

After that, I don't think there's anything different (except the format). Smile

I really like this list!! I edited in my commentary on your ten changes in the quote. I agreed with just about everything; I just had a few minor comments/questions.

EDIT: No Bahamdia Ifraid for attack?
Aug. 30, 2013  12:25 PM
 
Duo 160PD: Completely forgot to add that... I thought I was missing something XD

Phantom TH170: Totally forgot that too. Confused I'm sorry, I keep forgetting little tidbits of the important stuff. Tongue_out

H145: Yet another thing I forgot... I thought of this in my bed last night but I couldn't go on and change it.

Bahamdia Ifraid: Eeeeehhh... I like this combo a lot, and it's really cool, but from my testing both formal and informal, I wouldn't call it quite top-tier myself... :\

The most it ever hit against a BD145 defense type was 52%, and E230 and SP230 completely trounced it... I get 10-15% higher win rates with Flash every time I try it (60-65%). While it may have been a top-of-the-line attacker when it was first tested, IMO there's stuff now that's waaaaaaay better.

I do recall talking to a couple other people who didn't want it on the list; but, it's right on the edge for me, so if a lot of people like it I would be obliged to put it up there. Wink

Update! Joyful_3
Spoiler (Click to View)
Aug. 30, 2013  2:55 PM
 
H145: This part is awful, seriously. I gave mine away, it was so bad for me. Tons of recoil, too much weight, not enough speed, not much smash.

BAHAMDIA Ifraid: Eh, yeah. When you consider the fact Synchrom E230 and Duo will beat it, as well as probably Scythe 85 RS, IDK.
Aug. 30, 2013  3:09 PM
 
Really? :\ I thought H145 worked well... It seems decent with Flash.
Aug. 30, 2013  4:20 PM
 
(Aug. 30, 2013  3:09 PM)theblackdragon Wrote: Really? :\ I thought H145 worked well... It seems decent with Flash.

Maybe it seems decent with Flash because it has the same shape as Flash.
Aug. 30, 2013  4:45 PM
 
H145 is a fantastic part for Flash, and I recall some people placing with it on Wyvang. Like R145, one shouldn't underestimate its smash potential!

I'm still enough of a believer in Bahamdia Ifraid to keep using it (It has serious raw power and defeats almost the same amount of the defense meta as Flash), but if multiple people are calling for it to come down then that's fine.
Aug. 30, 2013  7:33 PM
 
About H145 on Wyvang, I did some "formal" testing...

WARNING: These tests were done with a worn R2F and a Hasbro ripcord launcher! I only had time to do ten rounds for each, so this is about as informal as a formal test can get... All the variables have been eliminated, with each combo using all the same parts (save the track, obviously) and launcher, but, regardless, this is not a standard procedure set of testing. I thought I'd just post it for some reference.

Also, when testing different parts next to eachother for attack potential, I like to keep record of wall saves so as to have an accurate interpretation of how much smash it can actually produce.

Wyvang Wyvang H145R2F vs. Reviser Reviser BD145RDF
Reviser launched first on all launches. Worn-ish RDF, worn R2F.
Wyvang: wins, 4/10 (All KO)
Reviser: wins, 6/10 (All OS)
Wyvang Wyvang H145R2F win rate: 40%

Wall save count: 4


Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F vs. Reviser Reviser BD145RDF
Reviser launched first on all launches. Worn-ish RDF, worn R2F.
Wyvang: wins, 3/10 (All KO)
Reviser: wins, 7/10 (All OS)
Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F win rate: 30%

Wall save count: 9

I really didn't see any problem with H145; it actually seemed to make Wyvang slightly more mobile and easier to control... Another advantage is that it can produce smash against LTDC's.

IDK, I'm gonna leave it up there for now. Wink
Sep. 08, 2013  5:36 PM
 
Does anyone else want to take a stab at writing their own list?

Also, does F230CF deserve a spot on the list anywhere? I know some of you really like the setup, but I don't know what customs it is supposed to be good on.
Sep. 08, 2013  5:42 PM
 
I can try to write a rough draft later. I think further testing would be needed.
Sep. 08, 2013  7:47 PM
 
(Sep. 08, 2013  5:36 PM)Ingulit Wrote: Does anyone else want to take a stab at writing their own list?

Also, does F230CF deserve a spot on the list anywhere? I know some of you really like the setup, but I don't know what customs it is supposed to be good on.

I could attempt to do one.

Also F230CF from what I know is good on Genbull Dragooon F230CF. I think GCF was actually preferred though?
Sep. 08, 2013  8:00 PM
 
From experience, it's too aggro?, but still might work. Could someone get some tests?
Sep. 08, 2013  8:29 PM
 
F230!!!!!! Joyful_3

I love it... It works well on Duo/Death, and Genbull/Reviser/Gargole/Killerken Dragooon. I have found tat CF actually works better.

Although GCF works better on anything besides F230, CF allows the combo to swing around on F230 while it's still spinning and sort of get on top of the other guy... IDK, it works better for me, but GCF is awesome too.

The only problem I can see is that it hasn't actually been tested in a BB-10 yet (save Death, but Duo works better anyways...). :\
Sep. 09, 2013  2:56 AM
 
Wyvang and Girago also do a really good job on Dragooon F230CF, especially if you're going for more of an Attack based F230 setup, rather than using Genbull Dragooon which is more of a Stamina setup.

Tests should be done, but from what I've seen at tournaments, plus my own personal experience, F230 is so-so in BB-10, because it has a high rate of being able to either self KO itself, or get knocked out by another Attacker, so it's really hard to determine whether or not it deserves a spot on the Tier List.

I agree with theblackdragon, CF is better than GCF for F230.
Sep. 09, 2013  3:30 AM
 
Has there been any official testing to sho that CF is better than GCF on F230, because I haven't seen any. If there isn't I think it should be tested and proven before we can really decide if CF is better, I have used GCF and CF on my F230 (now broken haha) and my results contradict yours, in my testing and tournament experience GCF is far better, so until it is actually proven I don't think CF should be put over GCF yet.

Go GCF! Lol
Sep. 09, 2013  4:14 AM
 
There's no point in debating whether CF or GCF is better for F230 at this point, in my opinion. They're both good enough to be listed. The most important thing you guys should be focusing on right now is compiling a "final" list that I can review for posting in the official thread. It'll never be absolutely perfect, and everybody might not be completely happy, but anything would be better than the outdated version that's up right now.
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