Hey guys! I've been on this site for a few months now, and I must say I'm impressed by the amount of information available here. I must say that I have improved a TON since joining this site... But there are a couple things that confuse me.

One of them is... What ever happened to low-track attack combos?
In my experience, and from these tests, I would like to make the argument that lower track combos can produce significantly higher, more stable smash than higher tracks.

Here are the pros and cons of taller vs. shorter tracks as I see them...


Tall Tracks:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Pros:

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Ability to connect with much taller combinations, such as E230/SP230 defense combos

Cons:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Lower smash
Lower speed

Short tracks:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Pros:

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Higher smash
Higher speed

Cons:

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Inability to connect with taller combinations, such as E230/SP230 defense combos.
NOT BD145 combos.

Controversy over pros and cons of LTAC's:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Probably the biggest controversy over the ability of LTAC's to perform competitively, is the issue of consistent metal-to-metal connection with BD145 defense combos. The popular idea seems to be that LTAC's are unable to make solid hits against BD145.
In my experience, this is simply not true, except maybe from select cases with low-protruding attack wheels such as flash on tracks like 85. The video below is from my Gryph Begaridos 105RF thread. In the video, you can clearly see that the attack combo is making consistent contact with the BD145 defense type, even as the defense type is on CS, a very tall bottom as defensive tips go.

In conclusion, the idea that BD145 completely blocks out attacks from LTAC's is, without a doubt, untrue.
Meow! loved this combination and we talked via PM over potential changes to the combo. He stated that the combo consistently took down top-tier BD145 defensive combos using as short a track as 85, the shortest height available in beyblade today.
Therefore, LTAC's can consitently make metal-to-metal contact with BD145 defense combinations.

Testing:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Vs. BD145:

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Gryph Balro 145RF vs. Reviser Reviser BD145CS
Reviser launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 10/10 (8 KO, 2 OS)
Reviser: wins, 10/10 (1 KO, 9 OS)
145 height win rate: 50%

Gryph Balro GB145RF vs. Reviser Reviser BD145CS
Reviser launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 10/10 (8 KO, 2 OS)
Reviser: wins, 10/10 (1 KO, 9 OS)
GB145 win rate: 50%

Gryph Balro 105RF vs. Reviser Reviser BD145CS
Reviser launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 14/20 (12 KO, 2 OS)
Reviser: wins, 6/20 (All OS)
105 height win rate: 70%

There you have it. 105 came out with a 20% lead in KOs. That's pretty huge. While I'm not saying that 145 height attackers are useless against BD145 defense combos, I do think lower-track combinations are more effective to an extent. I also found it odd that 145 and GB145 ended up with literally the exact same results

Vs. E230:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Gryph Balro 145RF vs. Reviser Reviser E230RDF
Reviser launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 20/20 (8 KO, 12 OS)
Reviser: wins, 0/20
145 height win rate: 100%


Gryph Balro GB145RF vs. Reviser Reviser E230RDF
Reviser launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 19/20 (8 KO, 11 OS)
Reviser: wins, 0/20
GB145 win rate: 95%

Gryph Balro 105RF vs. Reviser Reviser E230RDF
Reviser launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 19/20 (4 KO, 15 OS)
Reviser: wins, 1/20 (1 OS)
105 height win rate: 95%

The reason all 3 beys were able to OS so well is probably because I used RF. Other than that, I don't know why.

Some things I'd like to point out...

1) The reason these beys hit such unusually high KO rates against E230 is due to balro, which is basically an E230 killer. Wyvang will only hit a 15% win rate against E230 at a 145 height, and only 5% win rate against it on 105.

3) As you can see, a 145 height bey leads in KOs by 20% against E230 in comparison to a shorter height.

Vs. 230:

Spoiler (Click to View)

Gryph Balro GB145RF vs. Duo Aquario 230CS
Duo launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 12/20 (9 KO, 3 OS)
Aquario: wins, 8/20 (All OS)
GB145 win rate: 60%

Gryph Balro 105RF vs. Duo Aquario 230CS
Duo launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 13/20 (12 KO, 1 OS)
Aquario: wins, 7/20 (All OS)
105 win rate: 65%

As you can see, 105 took a 15% lead in KOs this time. As long as it could hit duo, it hit harder than GB145. Only about 1/4 of these KOs were from hitting underneath. The other times it just hit really low, but nonetheless it still hit the side of the metal wheel, rather than underneath.

Gryph Balro GB145RF vs. Reviser Reviser 230CS
Reviser launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 12/20 (6 KO, 6 OS)
Reviser: wins, 8/20 (All OS)
GB145 win rate: 60%


Gryph Balro 105RF vs. Reviser Reviser 230CS
Reviser launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 14/20 (12 KO, 2 OS)
Reviser: wins, 8/20 (All OS)
105 win rate: 70%

As you can see, 105 outdid GB145 in these tests. Reviser is a considerably think wheel, so it did protrude down on the track. Probably 1/2 of these KOs were made with a hit underneath. Reviser and most chrome wheels have gaps all over the top and bottom, which are easy to grab onto. In one instance, Balro actually hit underneath and lifted Reviser over a wall in the BB-10.

After these tests, I think we can conclude that synchrome LTAC's don't have much of a problem with 230... just E/SP230

In conclusion, I am in absolutely no way saying that high-track attack combos aren't competetive. That would be crazy. However, I think LTAC's are very, very effective, and I think they should become more open to testing.

... In my humble opinion.

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Uhh... I get 65% with Wyvang against E230(Lower).

Also, do you mind testing the attacker with something like GB145? No one uses 145 for attack.

Also, why would 105 have more speed than 145? There's no more outward weight distro on 105 compared to 145...

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E230 gets creamed in lower mode. Upper mode is used for defense.

Good point. I'll get some GB145 tests done right now.

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Well, ever so long ago, BD145 was released and all the cool LTAC at the time were pwned. Vulcan, Gravity, and Lighting combos on anything lower than CH120 were walled. This is partly because they are all very thin compared to some of the attackers today. (Except maybe Gravity, but it's "conic" shape made the lower part of the metal wheel hit more)

Then people just kinda forgot about LTACs cause Basalt was so small in comparison to BD145, that you needed something tall to make metal contact.

Now, Synchroms are for the most part larger than or equal to BD145, and all of the good Attackers are thick/have contact points towards the upper part of the metal wheel, so yes LTACs now have something on BD145, but are limited more because of E230.

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Well, ever so long ago, BD145 was released and all the cool LTAC at the time were pwned. Vulcan, Gravity, and Lighting combos on anything lower than CH120 were walled. This is partly because they are all very thin compared to some of the attackers today. (Except maybe Gravity, but it's "conic" shape made the lower part of the metal wheel hit more)

Then people just kinda forgot about LTACs cause Basalt was so small in comparison to BD145, that you needed something tall to make metal contact.

Now, Synchroms are for the most part larger than or equal to BD145, and all of the good Attackers are thick/have contact points towards the upper part of the metal wheel, so yes LTACs now have something on BD145, but are limited more because of E230.

Meow!

Spoiler (Click to View)

Thank you! That's what I meant... The modern attackers can make solid hits on BD145 that some of the older attackers couldn't. And they have more than "something" on BD145... They have a 20% lead. That's a lot.

Personally, I have never seen E230 defense used before... EVER. I have seen one SP230 defense combo, but I've seen PLENTY of BD145 customizations used. It's really a matter of preferance, or whether you want an advantage against E230 or BD145. Most other combos used in the current metagame are 165- anyway, at least where I am, so an LTAC would have the advantage against a wider range of combos than a 145 height. Just IMO.

I just wanted to raise the question of why LTAC's are rejected as useless just because they have a disadvantage against what seems like the less popular form of defense in the current metagame.

But, remember, though I am trying to be neutral, I obviously have a preferance for shorter-track combos, so I would get a second opinion from someone who is not biased.

ShinobuXD: I am adding GB145 results to the OP. Although, it did not get any higher win rates than 145, which I found very odd...

As for 105 being faster, just try it! You'll see real quick that it outruns GB145 easily.

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For another defense custom, do you think you can test vs. cs or rsf? Is the metagame defense customs are they really leaniant to lower tracks? Like bd145. The wins from the lower track seemed like it was mainly OS, so I think the tests woukd show better comparison when compared with a more stamina-oriented defense type.

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Oh and as well will you be willing to test vs. SA165?

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For another defense custom, do you think you can test vs. cs or rsf? Is the metagame defense customs are they really leaniant to lower tracks? Like bd145. The wins from the lower track seemed like it was mainly OS, so I think the tests would show better comparison when compared with a more stamina-oriented defense type.

1) The lower-track wins against BD145 were almost completely KO. There were just as many OSes with 145.

2) Absolutely. Defense combos are very primarily BD145 based where I am. It may differ in different areas, but I would say yes, overall, BD145 defense is more frequently used. Plus, Good E230 Defense combos seem to be OSed by just about everything. Even when they're on CS.

3) Plus, it's not the 230 part of E230, it's the disc part. From my informal testing, 105 can take out 230 stamina types, just nothing with E230, because the disc stops it from hitting low or underneath.
Therefore, If it really has higher smash, than it should have an advantage against whatever it can hit. Now that synchrome wheels are so thick/tall, 105 can make metal-to-metal contact with even 230, so if there's no disc, it shouldn't matter.

4) Again, I'm not saying that 145 attackers are worse. I'm just saying that my preferance is shorter-tracks, and I'm giving my reasons for the argument.

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Hmmm, I had been wondering about this as well. With Synchroms, I am curious how a LTAC would perform. So far the tests prove they are quite effective.

Have you tried any others lower than 105?

I use MF-H Diablo Kerbecks 85RF quite often in tournaments.

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something useful, if you could test it, is to know which Chrome Wheels should be used for this

Thanks for testing this up! I love low attackers!

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I hate Argentinian customs!

230 was a larger problem for our LTAC's than BD145 because they couldn't make metal-on-metal contact. Might have changed with synchrome.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I was hesitant to mention it because I always thought there was controversy over 230 vs left spin. I was always able to KO Basalt 230CS with a low L Drago or Perseus in left spin.

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I was hesitant to mention it because I always thought there was controversy over 230 vs left spin. I was always able to KO Basalt 230CS with a low L Drago or Perseus in left spin.

Those were the most common attackers, alongside vulcan, and 230 still dominated attack, so it may just be you.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I was hesitant to mention it because I always thought there was controversy over 230 vs left spin. I was always able to KO Basalt 230CS with a low L Drago or Perseus in left spin.

You are the king of attack, so it's not surprising XD

Anyways, I'm surprised that the low track attackers got such a good won rate against E230. I was never a fan of low track attackers myself because I personally never got good results. I prefer mid heights like CH120 and S130.

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still posi

I put up some tests against 230 combinations, comparing GB145 and 105. It didn't surprise me at all.

Tri: I don't like to go too low most of the time... I would only go 85 very occasionally. CH120 is my preference, and I'll sometimes go for 100-105.

Izhkoort (and for everyone else too):

Spoiler (Click to View)

If you consider 120 to be an LTAC, then you could really use any attack setup on 120. On 105-, You should really only use combos with Gryph on the bottom. Then you can just use any competetive chrome wheel for the top.

If LTAC's were to develope into a category of attack types today, then there wouldn't be a very wide range of them, since the design would be pretty restrictive due to modern BD145/E230 defenders. Here are the LTAC's that I find effective:

(MSF-H) Gryph Balro/Begaridos/Pegasis/Ifraid Bahamdia 85RF/R2F

Pegasis Begaridos and Bahamdia are all pretty wide, and as so, are pretty consistent hitters on 85.
Balro is not quite as consistent, but it probably has the highest smash of the bunch (except for maybe Begaridos).

(MSF-H) Gryph Balro/Begaridos/(Wyvang)/Pegasis/Ifraid Bahamdia 90RF/R2F

I put Wyvang in parentheses here, because it will work (and be very, very, very effective) on 90, but only if the performance tip is in a condition where it still retains its height. If the bottom is new, then it will be tall enough to work fine. If the bottom is very worn, it may not be tall enough.
Wyvang is safer yo use on 100 or 105.

(MSF-H) Gryph Balro/Begaridos/Wyvang/Pegasis/Ifraid Bahamdia 100/105RF/R2F

105 attackers are very consistent, and though they have very, very slightly less smash than 85 or 90, they are probably the safest to use.

Balro/Gryph Balro/ Wyvang/Gryph Wyvang/Begaridos Begaridos CH120RF/R2F

CH120 is awesome. Though it may not quite be and LTAC, a CH120 attacker can travel between a short and tall height, so as to utilize the advantages of both.

That pretty much sums up all the effective LTAC's I have found so far.

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Thanks for that! Gryph is because it can achieve more rotation speed? or because of the shape? (or both?)

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I hate Argentinian customs!

Thanks for that, I still really want to explore more possibilities of 85/90 whenever I am able too.

Thanks for that! Gryph is because it can achieve more rotation speed? or because of the shape? (or both?)

It's mostly the shape. Gryph is very small, so if you use it on the bottom the chrome wheel that is most likely to make contact will be the top.

I've also found that on Duo defense combos, 85 LTAC's can make contact easily even with a worn bottom, since the disc on BD145 cannot be pushed up like it can on synchrome combos. Just a totally random thought.

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I think another reason why LTAC(acryonm for low attack type combos) are no more are because in the Zero G stadium, with all the swaying and the moving around, any bey with 120,105 and lower be trashed because the bey will scrape around until it's lost all of it's stamina.

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Umm, no. This thread is talking about BB-10 format, not Zero-G.

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4/29/12: The Spring Sortie (BB-10)
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2/24/13: Paper vs. Plastic (Zero-G+Plastic Formats)
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5/26/12: BeyDays 2013! (BB-10) (placed first)
7/14/13: Heated Metal Plastic-y Madness! (HMS + Plastics) (placed third in HMS)
7/20/13: The Bey Brawl! (BB-10)
9/28/13 "OK, alright, mirai~!" (BB-10) (placed second)
12/15/13 No Limit Holdem'! (Zero-G, Limited)
1/19/14 Happy Gnu Year! (Zero-G)
2/23/14 Better Late Than Never! (Limited, Plastics, which I got 3rd in)
3/29/14 GBT2 North Carolina Qualfier (Limited, got 4th)
3/30/14 GBT2 Maryland Qualifier (Limited)
6/8/14 A Prehistoric Venture (Limited, HMS, placed first in HMS)
6/21/14 A Timely Farewell (Standard, Tag-Team (not official format), Zero-G, placed first in tag-team and third in Zero-G)

My Testing Threads (All Zero-G) (Click to View)

Diablo Kerbecs E230CF
SB Discussion
Q Discussion
MB Discussion
RS Discussion
BWD Discussion
MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145 RDF
MF-H Duo F230CF
F:S Discussion
SA165 Discussion

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HMS Question and Answer Thread
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I think another reason why LTAC(acryonm for low attack type combos) are no more are because in the Zero G stadium, with all the swaying and the moving around, any bey with 120,105 and lower be trashed because the bey will scrape around until it's lost all of it's stamina.

Well yah. Even 145 attackers are pretty much dead in zero-G :\ Sway attack is really the only attack that works there. I'm talking about the BB-10 metagame. With the release of synchrom, it became possible to build attack types with wheels with contact points near the top, as opposed to older wheels like Vulcan, FLash or Gravity.

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did someone found an LTAC for Dragooon that's effective for smash attack? (I'm not talking about attack-spin equalizer hybrid)

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I hate Argentinian customs!

did someone found an LTAC for Dragooon that's effective for smash attack? (I'm not talking about attack-spin equalizer hybrid)

I don't know if Dragooon would work well as an LTAC, considering the bottom wheel is supposed to produce all the smash. :\ There aren't very many combinations that would actually be effective as LTACs, but the ones that work produce pretty impressive numbers in comparison to 145 height attackers. They're not exactly easy to build or widely diverse as far as customization goes, but they can be pretty devastating once you have one that works.

For instance, you can use a very wide range of different tracks and wheels with normal height attack types, but with LTACs you can't really use any track with a gimmick or diverse height, and there are only specific chrome wheel setups with contact points at the right angle/elevation to be effective.

However, once you have one, as these tests show, it can be pretty boss.

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I think another reason why LTAC(acryonm for low attack type combos) are no more are because in the Zero G stadium, with all the swaying and the moving around, any bey with 120,105 and lower be trashed because the bey will scrape around until it's lost all of it's stamina.

What about Samurai Pegasis? Ive seen it in videos, and it doesnt scrape that much. I actually wonder why thats the case...

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Well R2F is incredibly tall, so it raises the bey to about a 145WD height.

I'm a fan of LTACs and all (my very first competitive combo back in October 2010 was MF-H Vulcan Pegasis 85R2F), but it got brutally murdered by the advent of the Maximum Series. It may work now, but the idea died when it was obliterated back then.

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