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What ever happened to LTAC's? - Printable Version

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+---- Thread: What ever happened to LTAC's? (/Thread-What-ever-happened-to-LTAC-s)

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What ever happened to LTAC's? - [)ragon - Jul. 12, 2013

Hey guys! I've been on this site for a few months now, and I must say I'm impressed by the amount of information available here. I must say that I have improved a TON since joining this site... But there are a couple things that confuse me.

One of them is... What ever happened to low-track attack combos?
In my experience, and from these tests, I would like to make the argument that lower track combos can produce significantly higher, more stable smash than higher tracks.

Here are the pros and cons of taller vs. shorter tracks as I see them...


Tall Tracks:

Short tracks:

Controversy over pros and cons of LTAC's:

Testing:

In conclusion, I am in absolutely no way saying that high-track attack combos aren't competetive. That would be crazy. However, I think LTAC's are very, very effective, and I think they should become more open to testing.

... In my humble opinion. Smile


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - ShinobuXD - Jul. 12, 2013

Uhh... I get 65% with Wyvang against E230(Lower).

Also, do you mind testing the attacker with something like GB145? No one uses 145 for attack.

Also, why would 105 have more speed than 145? There's no more outward weight distro on 105 compared to 145...


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - [)ragon - Jul. 12, 2013

E230 gets creamed in lower mode. Upper mode is used for defense. Smile

Good point. I'll get some GB145 tests done right now.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - Meow! - Jul. 12, 2013

Well, ever so long ago, BD145 was released and all the cool LTAC at the time were pwned. Vulcan, Gravity, and Lighting combos on anything lower than CH120 were walled. This is partly because they are all very thin compared to some of the attackers today. (Except maybe Gravity, but it's "conic" shape made the lower part of the metal wheel hit more)

Then people just kinda forgot about LTACs cause Basalt was so small in comparison to BD145, that you needed something tall to make metal contact.

Now, Synchroms are for the most part larger than or equal to BD145, and all of the good Attackers are thick/have contact points towards the upper part of the metal wheel, so yes LTACs now have something on BD145, but are limited more because of E230.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - [)ragon - Jul. 12, 2013

(Jul. 12, 2013  2:16 AM)Meow! Wrote: Well, ever so long ago, BD145 was released and all the cool LTAC at the time were pwned. Vulcan, Gravity, and Lighting combos on anything lower than CH120 were walled. This is partly because they are all very thin compared to some of the attackers today. (Except maybe Gravity, but it's "conic" shape made the lower part of the metal wheel hit more)

Then people just kinda forgot about LTACs cause Basalt was so small in comparison to BD145, that you needed something tall to make metal contact.

Now, Synchroms are for the most part larger than or equal to BD145, and all of the good Attackers are thick/have contact points towards the upper part of the metal wheel, so yes LTACs now have something on BD145, but are limited more because of E230.

Meow!

ShinobuXD: I am adding GB145 results to the OP. Smile Although, it did not get any higher win rates than 145, which I found very odd...

As for 105 being faster, just try it! You'll see real quick that it outruns GB145 easily. Smile


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - 6 God - Jul. 12, 2013

For another defense custom, do you think you can test vs. cs or rsf? Is the metagame defense customs are they really leaniant to lower tracks? Like bd145. The wins from the lower track seemed like it was mainly OS, so I think the tests woukd show better comparison when compared with a more stamina-oriented defense type.

Oh and as well will you be willing to test vs. SA165?


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - [)ragon - Jul. 12, 2013

(Jul. 12, 2013  2:54 AM)Kyler_the best Wrote: For another defense custom, do you think you can test vs. cs or rsf? Is the metagame defense customs are they really leaniant to lower tracks? Like bd145. The wins from the lower track seemed like it was mainly OS, so I think the tests would show better comparison when compared with a more stamina-oriented defense type.

1) The lower-track wins against BD145 were almost completely KO. There were just as many OSes with 145.

2) Absolutely. Defense combos are very primarily BD145 based where I am. It may differ in different areas, but I would say yes, overall, BD145 defense is more frequently used. Plus, Good E230 Defense combos seem to be OSed by just about everything. Unhappy Even when they're on CS.

3) Plus, it's not the 230 part of E230, it's the disc part. From my informal testing, 105 can take out 230 stamina types, just nothing with E230, because the disc stops it from hitting low or underneath.
Therefore, If it really has higher smash, than it should have an advantage against whatever it can hit. Now that synchrome wheels are so thick/tall, 105 can make metal-to-metal contact with even 230, so if there's no disc, it shouldn't matter.

4) Again, I'm not saying that 145 attackers are worse. Smile I'm just saying that my preferance is shorter-tracks, and I'm giving my reasons for the argument.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - Kai Hiwatari - Jul. 12, 2013

Hmmm, I had been wondering about this as well. With Synchroms, I am curious how a LTAC would perform. So far the tests prove they are quite effective.

Have you tried any others lower than 105?


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - Yuko Ray14 - Jul. 12, 2013

I use MF-H Diablo Kerbecks 85RF quite often in tournaments.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - Izhkoort - Jul. 12, 2013

something useful, if you could test it, is to know which Chrome Wheels should be used for this

Thanks for testing this up! I love low attackers!


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - th!nk - Jul. 12, 2013

230 was a larger problem for our LTAC's than BD145 because they couldn't make metal-on-metal contact. Might have changed with synchrome.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - Meow! - Jul. 12, 2013

I was hesitant to mention it because I always thought there was controversy over 230 vs left spin. I was always able to KO Basalt 230CS with a low L Drago or Perseus in left spin.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - th!nk - Jul. 12, 2013

(Jul. 12, 2013  4:50 AM)Meow! Wrote: I was hesitant to mention it because I always thought there was controversy over 230 vs left spin. I was always able to KO Basalt 230CS with a low L Drago or Perseus in left spin.

Those were the most common attackers, alongside vulcan, and 230 still dominated attack, so it may just be you.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - Tri - Jul. 12, 2013

(Jul. 12, 2013  4:50 AM)Meow! Wrote: I was hesitant to mention it because I always thought there was controversy over 230 vs left spin. I was always able to KO Basalt 230CS with a low L Drago or Perseus in left spin.

You are the king of attack, so it's not surprising XD

Anyways, I'm surprised that the low track attackers got such a good won rate against E230. I was never a fan of low track attackers myself because I personally never got good results. I prefer mid heights like CH120 and S130.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - [)ragon - Jul. 12, 2013

I put up some tests against 230 combinations, comparing GB145 and 105. Smile It didn't surprise me at all.

Tri: I don't like to go too low most of the time... I would only go 85 very occasionally. CH120 is my preference, and I'll sometimes go for 100-105. Smile

Izhkoort (and for everyone else too):

That pretty much sums up all the effective LTAC's I have found so far. Smile


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - Izhkoort - Jul. 12, 2013

Thanks for that! Gryph is because it can achieve more rotation speed? or because of the shape? (or both?)


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - Kai Hiwatari - Jul. 12, 2013

Thanks for that, I still really want to explore more possibilities of 85/90 whenever I am able too.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - [)ragon - Jul. 12, 2013

(Jul. 12, 2013  5:42 PM)Izhkoort Wrote: Thanks for that! Gryph is because it can achieve more rotation speed? or because of the shape? (or both?)

It's mostly the shape. Smile Gryph is very small, so if you use it on the bottom the chrome wheel that is most likely to make contact will be the top.

I've also found that on Duo defense combos, 85 LTAC's can make contact easily even with a worn bottom, since the disc on BD145 cannot be pushed up like it can on synchrome combos. Just a totally random thought. Tongue_out


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - MacDuff - Jul. 24, 2013

I think another reason why LTAC(acryonm for low attack type combos) are no more are because in the Zero G stadium, with all the swaying and the moving around, any bey with 120,105 and lower be trashed because the bey will scrape around until it's lost all of it's stamina.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - *Ginga* - Jul. 24, 2013

Umm, no. This thread is talking about BB-10 format, not Zero-G.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - [)ragon - Jul. 24, 2013

(Jul. 24, 2013  11:47 PM)Striker Phantom Wrote: I think another reason why LTAC(acryonm for low attack type combos) are no more are because in the Zero G stadium, with all the swaying and the moving around, any bey with 120,105 and lower be trashed because the bey will scrape around until it's lost all of it's stamina.

Well yah. Even 145 attackers are pretty much dead in zero-G :\ Sway attack is really the only attack that works there. I'm talking about the BB-10 metagame. Smile With the release of synchrom, it became possible to build attack types with wheels with contact points near the top, as opposed to older wheels like Vulcan, FLash or Gravity.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - Izhkoort - Jul. 28, 2013

did someone found an LTAC for Dragooon that's effective for smash attack? (I'm not talking about attack-spin equalizer hybrid)


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - [)ragon - Jul. 28, 2013

(Jul. 28, 2013  2:56 AM)Izhkoort Wrote: did someone found an LTAC for Dragooon that's effective for smash attack? (I'm not talking about attack-spin equalizer hybrid)

I don't know if Dragooon would work well as an LTAC, considering the bottom wheel is supposed to produce all the smash. :\ There aren't very many combinations that would actually be effective as LTACs, but the ones that work produce pretty impressive numbers in comparison to 145 height attackers. They're not exactly easy to build or widely diverse as far as customization goes, but they can be pretty devastating once you have one that works.

For instance, you can use a very wide range of different tracks and wheels with normal height attack types, but with LTACs you can't really use any track with a gimmick or diverse height, and there are only specific chrome wheel setups with contact points at the right angle/elevation to be effective.

However, once you have one, as these tests show, it can be pretty boss.


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - UGottaCetus - Jul. 29, 2013

(Jul. 24, 2013  11:47 PM)Striker Phantom Wrote: I think another reason why LTAC(acryonm for low attack type combos) are no more are because in the Zero G stadium, with all the swaying and the moving around, any bey with 120,105 and lower be trashed because the bey will scrape around until it's lost all of it's stamina.

What about Samurai Pegasis? Ive seen it in videos, and it doesnt scrape that much. I actually wonder why thats the case...


RE: What ever happened to LTAC's? - Ga' - Jul. 29, 2013

Well R2F is incredibly tall, so it raises the bey to about a 145WD height.

I'm a fan of LTACs and all (my very first competitive combo back in October 2010 was MF-H Vulcan Pegasis 85R2F), but it got brutally murdered by the advent of the Maximum Series. It may work now, but the idea died when it was obliterated back then.