I just came back to this thread, and wow Coach, srsly? Damn, can anyone else test? Because I am now very cinfused about Scythe and Duo, but both of them are IMO... Phantom and Duo?(lol) I'll test Duo RF-Based Defense, with R2F :\ and I'll post in the right threads.

---

I am your dog.
Thanks for the sig, Rock kyoya!

The moment you've all been waiting for. Thanks to 'Th!nk' for helping with this an lot. Its here, the list!! NOTE: THE LIST IS JUST A SKETCH, A DRAFT AT THIS POINT. ITS SOMETHING TO WORK ON. NOT A CC LIST!

ATTACK
MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK>DEF, Counter Mode) 85/90/CH120/R145/TR145 RF/R2F/LRF
MF-H Beat Byxis/Lynx/ 90/CH120/GB145/H145 RF/R2F
MF-H Cosmic Kerbecs/Unicorno II CH120/R145/TH170 RF/R2F
MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85/90/CH120/H145/R145 RF/LRF
MSF-H Dark Knight/Samurai Wyvang CH120/GB145/H145/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
MF-H Pegasis 85/CH120/R145 RF/R2F

DEFENSE

MF-H Bakushin Leone 90 RSF/RF
MF-H Earth Bull/Aquario/Sagittario II/Hades/Cygnus 85/GB145/TH170/230 RSF/RF
MF-H Libra 90/GB145 RSF/RF

STAMINA

(MF-M) Scythe Cancer/Cygnus/Hades W145/TH170 EWD/WD/SWD/SD
Scythe Cancer/Cygnus/Hades TH170/230 D/WD/SD
(MF-M) Earth Cancer/Cygnus/Hades 85/90/W145 EWD/WD/SWD/D/SD
Burn Bull/Cancer/Cygnus/Hades 85/90/W145 EWD/WD/SWD/D/SD
(MF-M) Duo Cancer/Cygnus/Hades W145/TH170 EWD/WD/SWD/SD
(MF-M) Duo Cancer/Cygnus/Hades TH170/230 D/MB/WD/SD

SPIN STEALERS

(MF-M) Gravity Perseus (Stamina) CH120 EWD
(MF-M) Gravity Perseus (Stamina) B: D
(MF-M) Gravity Perseus (Stamina) F230CF/GCF
(MF-M) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
(MF-M) Meteo L-Drago B: D
(MF-M) Meteo L-Drago F230CF/GCF

ANTI-ATTACK
MF-H Libra CH120/GB145/R145 RF

First off, it was really great to work with you, Galaxy Blade, I was really impressed by how quickly you managed to collate my ramblings into actual formatted additions to your list. I think you've given us a really good starting point there, so thanks.

There were a bunch of things I think work and other related thoughts I had that I don't feel had enough testing to go into a draft or w/e, or stuff that should be posted and discussed rather than snuck in from the get-go, so here are my thoughts etc, and some explanations of certain decisions on that list.

I'm going to spoiler this just because of how long it is, but if you're going to respond/discuss Galaxy Blade's list, you should at least flick through it.

Notes and Possible Additions/Removals (Click to View)

General Notes:

Attack: Tracks, particularly those on Cosmic and Wyvang in particular are mostly just assumed/based on things that have worked in the past - CH120 is generally strong in limited, being able to hit just about everything quite effectively (including LTDC, at least compared to 145 heights anyhow), and I still think using D125 over it on Gravity is silly in a format with 230.
No one's done much with LTAC with those two wheels that I've seen (I may have missed stuff) so there's no 85/90 etc on them. Curious whether beat needs to be on 90 or whether it could just use 85 too. Still, the fact these tracks have always worked well in the past and continue to work well on the wheels they've been tried on now is a pretty strong sign.

Pegasis is in Attack mainly for CH120, which is really good. Someone needs to get around to a proper testing thread for it, maybe I'll do it when I get time.

Defense: other wheels like maybe scythe might get a spot here but this is about it from what's been tested.
Earth has so many CW's because they are heavy or have good stamina and/or provide some protection of its slopes when used as an LTDC.

Stamina: LTSC are still very useful overall so Earth and Burn hold onto a spot for now, also because both can use EWD to outspin non-F230 spin stealers. Burn has Bull because it lines up real nice and honestly CW's don't seem to make a gigantic difference in Limited.

Spin Stealing: Anything below CH120 scrapes on both for me, and I'm not sure what else is the go for EWD spin stealers.

Possible Additions Worth Discussing:

Other Chrome Wheel Attack Setups: No one is really testing ZG wheels that aren't called Wyvang. Is it just better than the rest by a mile or is everyone bored of ZG stuff at the moment?

R145 on Defense: R145 doesn't actually seem to have that much recoil (especially when it's occasionally taking hits instead of the underside of the wheel), and it's the heaviest track in the format by a good margin. Even with its lack of symmetry with the defense wheels, I would love to see some testing done as I expect it to be a very valid choice.

ZG Defense Setups: Samurai Reviser doesn't seem completely awful, aside from its stamina trouble. This is something I'll be looking into when all my stuff arrives but yeah, something to think about.

Pegasis II on Tall Track Stamina: Pegasis II's weight distribution is extremely edge focussed and I get insane solo spin times with it on phantom, particularly the SonoKong version of the CW, which lacks the small hole on one side of the underside that the Takara Version, like many clear wheels, has which causes very slight imbalance (though the Takara version is the next best thing of everything I tried, which included Cancer, Aquario, Bull, Uranus, Horogium, Sagittario II). Pegasis II does have some issues with recoil if hit from above, so it's limited to tall tracks, but I'm convinced it is one of the best choices here, better than Cancer at least. I wish I could get consistent enough with my solo spins to prove it (as I may have mentioned, my launch is very unstable which has a big effect on solo spin time). FWIW, Ingulit said Pegasis II is the most underrated CW ever or something to that effect when I spoke to him about it, and I don't know if he even has the SK version, so I'm not alone in this!

WD on Tall Track Stamina: WD still outspins D here, as it can continue spinning at sharper angles before it goes off the side of the tip and topples. It's just that that very property can cause it to lose its advantage over lower opponents. Maybe this won't hold up with wider wheels, maybe WD's angle will be too sharp for them, but Earth 230WD outspins Earth 230D for me reliably and I think that alone warrants it a spot (EWD is still awful on 230 though)

Virgo on Stamina: No one has a 5 minute Virgo any more, if they were anything more than a myth in the first place. It might get a spot if someone had one and could test, but the 3 min version everyone has doesn't, as Earth outspins it comfortably.

Virgo on Defense: Virgo is one of the format's heavier wheels, and is quite round, however those slopes and the gaps in the underside are problematic for anything other than same-height matchups. Might be worth looking into but overall probably not

Other Spin Stealing Tracks for EWD: CH120 is probably going to be the best thing because of its versatility and lack of scraping issues with Gravity/Meteo, but maybe other tracks will work too?

Nightmare/Sol (Mold 2)/Bakushin on anti-attack: Libra is so much better as long as it has a prime RF to use, but these could still be worth looking into.

Balance: This isn’t included because almost all of them need more tests/tournament usage, but here's a list of a few things that I'd expect to end up there:

MF-H Libra/Burn TH220/230CS: tall track CS does really well against 145 height stamina with the right wheel, and generally defense gets outspun too. Tall Track Stamina, Certain Spin Stealers and of course 145-height attack (which tosses them out of the stadium with ease) are the main counters as I see it.

Gravity Perseus D125GCF: Would like to see if CH120 or some other track works better and I don't think we've seen enough tournament successes yet. There'll probably be other combos along these lines too.

230MB stuff might end up here rather than stamina too depending how they work out – whether they can KO stuff etc.


Possible Removals:

SD from stamina: As I mentioned above, D is chosen on 230 entirely because it doesn't wobble at such sharp angles, but this does mean WD outspins it. If D is already enough of a cutback for 230, where exactly does SD, which has even less precession, have any advantage over the other two? Maybe low tracks but even there WD still outspins it and it doesn't seem to help much with wheels that have scraping issues anyway? Why do we keep putting it on CC lists other than some misguided tradition rooted in a sub-par application of logic?

MLD from spin stealing: It's inferior to gravity, but it still works pretty well so w/e.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Haha, I did?

I agree with you th!nk. Like we said it's just a base to work on, that's why th!nk has all these suggestions. I do like the look of R145 for Defense. Also, I think we should have GB145 for attack. It has been used before, but I'm not sure how it'll do. Just a couple of my thoughts.

Yep, usually people seem to tune out after the second paragraph of me rambling, you managed to sort through a gigantic PM or two and pull out everything of relevance. Plus the list you had the initiative to send me in the first place was nice and solid too.

GB145 is there on the only two-sided wheel there, and aside from that it's totally outclassed by R145, the only place it's missing is maybe on Wyvang (where it could actually go up already seeing as there's testing on that and it did pretty good), it really depends on what blocks the contact points more and also on how each helps the balance to a degree (big effect on controllability and any bouncing is generally bad as it means your hits are more easily resisted), and generally the fact R145's weight is lower and can be adjusted to compensate for imbalances slightly on most Chrome Wheels (or at least to exacerbate them less than GB145) means it's likely to be a better choice. That said, a) I never did post my solo spins that show that because my spin times are generally too erratic to get a 5-spin sample without just as many outliers from my extremely unstable launch, and b) It does vary by wheel so while for Dragooon, Reviser and Saramanda R145 is better, maybe it won't be that way for Wyvang (though I'm pretty sure the fact R145 slightly lowers the centre of gravity is going to be good for any chrome wheel really).

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I was thinking of that Samurai Wyvang combo with GB145. I did get some pretty good results with it. Like we said it's a list to work on. Just GB145 on that combo might work.

Honestly you can probably stick it on Wyvang in your list right now as there is testing for it etc. I forgot about it til you brought it up, haha.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

OK, it's be updated with GB145 on the Wyvang combo. Also, sorry th!nk if I came of a bit rude.

Thing's related to Th!nks post, that I've used and am working on.

Spin Stealing: Anything below CH120 scrapes on both for me, and I'm not sure what else is the go for EWD spin stealers.

I've always used TR145, or S130 also works well given whats available in the format. TR145 matches up great with CF as well for another spin stealing setup.

Other Chrome Wheel Attack Setups: No one is really testing ZG wheels that aren't called Wyvang. Is it just better than the rest by a mile or is everyone bored of ZG stuff at the moment?

Archer Griff (crystal up mode) H145R2F, I've been messing around with this and really like it just have to do some formal testing. the imbalance of Archer gives it a good driving smash IMO. I've always liked imbalanced beys for smashing.

I'm sure Balro and Begirados have solid potential here too. Shining did use Begirados at our tournament though I'm not sure how it fared.

Pegasis is in Attack mainly for CH120, which is really good. Someone needs to get around to a proper testing thread for it, maybe I'll do it when I get time.

I have Pegasis, Libra, Burn Cancer on order so if nobody gets on this before I get it. I'll try to set up some time for this as well.

MF-H Libra/Burn TH220/230CS: tall track CS does really well against 145 height stamina with the right wheel, and generally defense gets outspun too. Tall Track Stamina, Certain Spin Stealers and of course 145-height attack (which tosses them out of the stadium with ease) are the main counters as I see it.

I used Burn 230CS for the majority of the tournament with it's only loss to ShiningGMS' Duo Cygnus 230D. It does deserve some look, as you said my choice in the aquario wheel wasn't the greated maybe if I used Bull or Pisces (for the centered weight distribution) I might have stood a chance.

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Thing's related to Th!nks post, that I've used and am working on.

Spin Stealing: Anything below CH120 scrapes on both for me, and I'm not sure what else is the go for EWD spin stealers.

I've always used TR145, or S130 also works well given whats available in the format. TR145 matches up great with CF as well for another spin stealing setup.

I'm so annoyed my TR145 has one wheel that seems to jam up occasionally, it really messes that up. I was thinking about ED145 but it would only really apply to that really free spinning one Hasbro released during metal fury.
Someone should test other CF spin stealers out, though can it really outspin stamina without F230?

Other Chrome Wheel Attack Setups: No one is really testing ZG wheels that aren't called Wyvang. Is it just better than the rest by a mile or is everyone bored of ZG stuff at the moment?

Archer Griff (crystal up mode) H145R2F, I've been messing around with this and really like it just have to do some formal testing. the imbalance of Archer gives it a good driving smash IMO. I've always liked imbalanced beys for smashing.

I'm sure Balro and Begirados have solid potential here too. Shining did use Begirados at our tournament though I'm not sure how it fared.

I dislike the hopping that often results as it means you can hit the opponent without traction behind you and go flying out. Plus I have enough trouble with unstable launches as it is haha. ControL_ used to have a theory that imbalanced helped prevent tornado stalling etc and caused more irregular movement patterns and therefore meant you would hit opponents more reliably, but personally I've always preferred focusing weight behind contact points which *usually* means a more balanced setup (though I guess that doesn't apply so much to ZG wheels haha).

I spoke to him about Begirados because I was thinking of getting one with the last remnants of my birthday money, and he said it's inferior to Wyvang, and Galaxy Blade echoed this sentiment. That said, it may well be good enough to earn itself a place anyway as neither seemed to think it was too far behind, but it would need testing to do so, haha.

I'm curious about Griff, Balro, Bahamdia, Phoenic, Pegasis (the chrome wheel, ofc) and maybe Girago (okay so that's most of them but hey what can I say everything I don't have is inherently an object of extreme curiosity for me.) Also people shouldn't be afraid to try different Crystal Wheels, seeing as Samurai isn't *that much* heavier than a bunch of the others, who knows, some of them might be able to do something to taller/lower opponents or whatever or do something for your weight distribution (like what you said about Archer, Coach).

Pegasis is in Attack mainly for CH120, which is really good. Someone needs to get around to a proper testing thread for it, maybe I'll do it when I get time.

I have Pegasis, Libra, Burn Cancer on order so if nobody gets on this before I get it. I'll try to set up some time for this as well.

I promise it'll at the very least be a fun use of your time - Pegasis always has been one of the most exciting wheels in MFB. It does have a bit of trouble budging Libra's fat behind compared to other wheels though (hence using it on CH120 being a good idea so you can get under Libra __145 defense, also because that lets it hit LTDC hard)

MF-H Libra/Burn TH220/230CS: tall track CS does really well against 145 height stamina with the right wheel, and generally defense gets outspun too. Tall Track Stamina, Certain Spin Stealers and of course 145-height attack (which tosses them out of the stadium with ease) are the main counters as I see it.

I used Burn 230CS for the majority of the tournament with it's only loss to ShiningGMS' Duo Cygnus 230D. It does deserve some look, as you said my choice in the aquario wheel wasn't the greated maybe if I used Bull or Pisces (for the centered weight distribution) I might have stood a chance.

Yeah, that was what tipped me off to try it out when I was seeing Libra do pretty crazy stuff on 230CS too (still nowhere near as ridic as what Hell does on that setup though haha), I figured that 230CS being just plain good might be why you had been using it (because before that I was admittedly a little puzzled).
Personally, I would suggest going with Pegasis II, Hades, or Cygnus in that setup, maximise stamina and add some weight at the same time, centred weight isn't that useful for attack or stamina (though an MF-H could help just by adding more weight overall, which could let you KO Duo perhaps with some banking, it could be a big hit to your stamina too), but overall weight and focussing on the flywheel effect Burn has might it help knock Duo around/out more easily, which seems to be Duo's main weakness.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Looking at the list, I'm impressed we've got something developmental to look at so quickly. Props to Th!nk and Galaxy Blade, good job.

Also, its pretty awesome since for the first time ever, I combo I created is on a (developmental, I know) list, haha.

---

Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Yeah, it does do pretty good. I'm also happy we got this in a short time. But like we've said, it's just a base to work on. To me, it does look pretty darn good. Though, it'd be good to here from other members on what they think.

Right now, I think we need to try find more Defense wheels, hah.

Defense has usually been a two-wheel type, the best of the low recoil defense wheels and the best of the weight based defense wheels, so making it to three completely different but generally equally good wheels (at least, without anything listed being redundant - we've had three or four wheel defense lists before but generally before Zero-G (or even earlier during in it) only one or two of the wheels ever really mattered at any one time) is still pretty good in my books.
A lot of it is the fact most of TT's releases in the era that makes up the bulk of Limited's wheel selection were aggressive, too. In terms of other options, Nightmare, Virgo and Sol Mold 2 are all usable for defense (especially with how much harder it is to use attack at tournaments - I was playing around with launching attack first today and it's not easy), but none of them have as low recoil as earth or as much weight to compensate for that recoil as Libra, and they also all have various degrees of trouble taking attacks anything other than horizontally. I'd definitely like to see testing on some of the ZG wheels (they probably won't be as good overall as Libra, but that plastic might manage to give them an edge against attacks from one direction if we can just get them stable enough to not be outspun by attack) and of course Scythe too, but on the whole things aren't that bad as it is, especially given the format is tailored to be a little attack friendly (in a testing environment at least - whether or not that's still the case in tournaments, with the difficulties I mentioned and more, remains to be seen).

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

My opinions in bold:

The moment you've all been waiting for. Thanks to 'Th!nk' for helping with this an lot. Its here, the list!! NOTE: THE LIST IS JUST A SKETCH, A DRAFT AT THIS POINT. ITS SOMETHING TO WORK ON. NOT A CC LIST!

ATTACK
MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK>DEF, Counter Mode) 85/90/CH120/R145/TR145 RF/R2F/LRF
MF-H Beat Byxis/Lynx/ 90/CH120/GB145/H145 RF/R2F
Have we discussed CH120 or GB145? Nope, not even tested it
MF-H Cosmic Kerbecs/Unicorno II CH120/R145/TH170 RF/R2F
Needs more testing on TH170 and CH120
MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85/90/CH120/H145/R145 RF/LRF
I think H145 would have too much recoil for LLD, plus it's inferior weight :\
MSF-H Dark Knight/Samurai Wyvang CH120/GB145/H145/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
What about DF105? That works pretty well for me.
MF-H Pegasis 85/CH120/R145 RF/R2F

Defenetly needs more testing IMO

DEFENSE

MF-H Bakushin Leone 90 RSF/RF
MF-H Earth Bull/Aquario/Sagittario II/Hades/Cygnus 85/GB145/TH170/230 RSF/RF
MF-H Libra 90/GB145 RSF/RF
For Defense, we need more testing with RF

STAMINA

(MF-M) Scythe Cancer/Cygnus/Hades W145/TH170 EWD/WD/SWD/SD
Scythe Cancer/Cygnus/Hades TH170/230 D/WD/SD
(MF-M) Earth Cancer/Cygnus/Hades 85/90/W145 EWD/WD/SWD/D/SD
Burn Bull/Cancer/Cygnus/Hades 85/90/W145 EWD/WD/SWD/D/SD
(MF-M) Duo Cancer/Cygnus/Hades W145/TH170 EWD/WD/SWD/SD
(MF-M) Duo Cancer/Cygnus/Hades TH170/230 D/MB/WD/SD
Why no TB with Duo Cancer TH170? or 230? What about SR200? And MF-M is a no-no. I've never tested MB, for the fact, nobody has :\

SPIN STEALERS

(MF-M) Gravity Perseus (Stamina) CH120 EWD
(MF-M) Gravity Perseus (Stamina) B: D
(MF-M) Gravity Perseus (Stamina) F230CF/GCF
(MF-M) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
(MF-M) Meteo L-Drago B: D
(MF-M) Meteo L-Drago F230CF/GCF

ANTI-ATTACK
MF-H Libra CH120/GB145/R145 RF

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I am your dog.
Thanks for the sig, Rock kyoya!

Do I need to introduce you to the concept of "safe assumptions", Shining God MS? I surely hope not. Pretty much every single thing you questioned is only questionable to someone who refuses to apply common sense.

People HAVE tested Duo 230MB, and MF-M is primarily used to maintain stability lategame with and against spin-stealers, it's generally an accepted tactic as far as I am aware. Attack tracks are usually just a matter of common sense, CH120 is excellent in limited and GB145 is both good on the original beat and a great track for two-sided attack wheels in the format - if we didn't apply common sense like this there'd barely be a list in pretty much any format. H145 does work on Lightning, it was a thing back in the day and continues to work - yes it has recoil trouble but it also has a lot more power than other Lightning customs that can hit tall-track opponents against LTDC.

Seriously you criticise some things as having no testing (whether or not they do actually have testing), suggest others with no testing or usage, sorry if this post comes off as rude, but I find it very hard to follow your expectations here.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I have tested Beat with CH120/GB145. I believe we have a lot of testing with TH170 in phase one Attack.

We've not gotten around to testing with DF105, but if you think you can...

Do I need to introduce you to the concept of "safe assumptions", Shining God MS? I surely hope not. Pretty much every single thing you questioned is only questionable to someone who refuses to apply common sense, honestly.

No, you don't, I'm just saying , but seriously though, MF-M doesn't mix with stamina, TBD has tests for it on his blog. MF-L would be awesome probably. I just wanted to add SR200 and TB to the list.

Galaxy Blade, will do that ASAP!

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I am your dog.
Thanks for the sig, Rock kyoya!

I'm just gonna say: If you want to add stuff to the list. This goes to every member!! Make sure you have tests to back it up. As this is what it is for...

Do I need to introduce you to the concept of "safe assumptions", Shining God MS? I surely hope not. Pretty much every single thing you questioned is only questionable to someone who refuses to apply common sense, honestly.

No, you don't, I'm just saying , but seriously though, MF-M doesn't mix with stamina, TBD has tests for it on his blog. MF-L would be awesome probably. I just wanted to add SR200 and TB to the list.

Galaxy Blade, will do that ASAP!

Great do I need to do tests to counter that or something, as it is I can't find a link to his blog so IDK exactly what he tested, but it's entirely for going against spin stealers (which is a pretty big priority right now given Gravity F230CF may as well replace every other spin-stealing and stamina custom on the list) the aim being to stay more stable lategame (the same reason it helped Duo 230MB in standard). It doesn't affect their stamina so bad they are going to struggle to outspin defense or the height matchups they generally do well against anyway, but it's in brackets because it's optional, if that's not a priority for you. For the record, MF-L has never worked well for me or anyone I've spoken to, because its weight is neither very centred nor at the edge of the beyblade, so it is of little use to your weight distribution in any way which is a shame because it looks so darned cool. I really want it to be good so badly, but I just can't make it happen.

TB still needs to be tested for limited (like has it got any in here and I've missed it all or what?), as it has seen use primarily on heavier wheels, rather than being something around back before 4D like most of the things you questioned were, and those wheels do have an effect on what does/doesn't work to some degree. Test it and make a thread for it, please, I could use some more data on stuff I don't have to look over when bored

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread lately! Been busy... Awesome job Galaxy. That list looks nice (as a basis at least).

Now, my criticism (XD).

@MF-M: NO! I'm sorry, MF-M is just so absolutely horrible on all Stamina setups... I couldn't possibly imagine any competitive Stamina type using it. I literally want to go throw up right now reading that. It cuts like a full minute off the solo spin time of everything I've ever tried. It just makes me sick...

And, contrary to popular belief, it doesn't help against opposite-spin AT ALL. In fact, from my experience, it actually makes it worse. Physically speaking, the more inward and concentrated an spinning object's weight distribution is, the more easily it will become unstable at low spin velocity (the reverse (or decrease) of the flywheel effect). The more inwardly focused an object's weight is, the more concentrated its center of gravity, which will result in a sharp alteration of horizontal to vertical weight distribution ratio.

When you apply MF of any kind, you are focusing the weight distribution of the combination further inward than you would be otherwise, which reduces the flywheel effect and ultimately negatively impacts stability.

I am strongly opposed to the use of MF-M in Stamina customizations of any kind. While it can be useful in certain aggressive customizations to increase spin velocity, it drastically hinders the Stamina of most combinations.

I'm really sorry if I offended anyone just now, haha. I have a problem controlling my negative opinion in certain situations.

gravity LTAC: I honestly don't like these too much. I just feel like using Lightning/Vulcan when I'm using a low track. IMO Gravity does its job best when it sits mid-profile (R145/TR145). I really don't see much benefit at all to using it on 85/90.

@TH170 on Cosmic: Not to say it's bad, but R145 does everything so much better. I really don't see the point of throwing yourself up 3 millimeters and increasing your already disagreeable recoil just to hit something from higher (TBH, TH170 is too high from my experience. R145 is just right IMHO).

@No CS in the Defense section: ... Did I miss something important? Sure CS has iffy Defense in Standard format, but you people have to remember that RDF, RB, and RS are all banned here. RSF really isn't all that much better in terms of Defense (granted, it has an edge, but not enough to disqualify CS IMO).

@No TB for Duo: I love TB!! I am definitely a supporter of its addition to TH170/230 customs, and for the addition of SR200TB.

@SWD for Stamina: Can you educate me on this? IIRC SWD has unimpressive balance, and its pure Stamina isn't that impressive. Of course, I haven't seen it spin for like ever, so I could definitely be wrong.

attack section: Could we add Vulcan? Pretty please with a cherry on top? XD It's one of my favorite wheels! I really like the smash you can get out of it on 85. Granted, it's not particularly high-powered, but it's so clean and consistent. Plus, I have a mess of Clear Wheels that look really cool with it.

@No Libra in the Stamina section: WHAT??? Seriously? Libra is insane! It out-spins earth, and even Burn sometimes! I have no idea why the thing isn't there.

Do you guys have the mold 2 Libra? 'Cause IIRC mold 1 isn't that great. If you're getting bad results for Stamina, that might be the cause. IMO Libra is an absolute must-have. Of course, results for Libra in Stamina testing seem to be quite inconsistent and controversial, and different people with different wheels are saying different things. However, from what I've seen, most of the time, the two camps are distinctly separated by the molds of Libra they own.

All I know is that I've witnessed a mold 2 Libra take down a Takara Burn in an LTSC mirror match 6-4, with no KO's. However, I haven't tested it much myself, so I probably shouldn't get into discussing it much.

It would be cool if I could get a quick explanation for these points. I'm sure you guys had good reasons for doing what you did.

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I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread lately! Been busy... Awesome job Galaxy. That list looks nice (as a basis at least).

Now, my criticism (XD).

@MF-M:
This was th!nks Idea I think, hah.

gravity LTAC:Well, we just thought Gravity might do good. It's not that bad to tell the truth.

@TH170 on Cosmic:
TH170 does not do bad. It's should stay IMO. It does give you more track choices.

@No CS in the Defense section: I think I might agree with you here.

@No TB for Duo: We wasn't sure if it was that good. Plus, we had no testing for it, hah.

@SWD for Stamina: I don't think I came up with this....

attack section: I don't think so. Unless you could get some big results with Vulcun... We might consider it.

@No Libra in the Stamina section:
I do not know. But like we've said. It's just a sketch up, haha.

After my post I'm sure Th!nk will give you one of his big posts.

Don't forgot, we worked on this together! So I'm sure we both have different reasons.

I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread lately! Been busy... Awesome job Galaxy. That list looks nice (as a basis at least).

Spoiler (Click to View)

Now, my criticism (XD).

@MF-M: NO! I'm sorry, MF-M is just so absolutely horrible on all Stamina setups... I couldn't possibly imagine any competitive Stamina type using it. I literally want to go throw up right now reading that. It cuts like a full minute off the solo spin time of everything I've ever tried. It just makes me sick...

And, contrary to popular belief, it doesn't help against opposite-spin AT ALL. In fact, from my experience, it actually makes it worse. Physically speaking, the more inward and concentrated an spinning object's weight distribution is, the more easily it will become unstable at low spin velocity (the reverse (or decrease) of the flywheel effect). The more inwardly focused an object's weight is, the more concentrated its center of gravity, which will result in a sharp alteration of horizontal to vertical weight distribution ratio.

When you apply MF of any kind, you are focusing the weight distribution of the combination further inward than you would be otherwise, which reduces the flywheel effect and ultimately negatively impacts stability.

I am strongly opposed to the use of MF-M in Stamina customizations of any kind. While it can be useful in certain aggressive customizations to increase spin velocity, it drastically hinders the Stamina of most combinations.

I'm really sorry if I offended anyone just now, haha. I have a problem controlling my negative opinion in certain situations.

gravity LTAC: I honestly don't like these too much. I just feel like using Lightning/Vulcan when I'm using a low track. IMO Gravity does its job best when it sits mid-profile (R145/TR145). I really don't see much benefit at all to using it on 85/90.

@TH170 on Cosmic: Not to say it's bad, but R145 does everything so much better. I really don't see the point of throwing yourself up 3 millimeters and increasing your already disagreeable recoil just to hit something from higher (TBH, TH170 is too high from my experience. R145 is just right IMHO).

@No CS in the Defense section: ... Did I miss something important? Sure CS has iffy Defense in Standard format, but you people have to remember that RDF, RB, and RS are all banned here. RSF really isn't all that much better in terms of Defense (granted, it has an edge, but not enough to disqualify CS IMO).

@No TB for Duo: I love TB!! I am definitely a supporter of its addition to TH170/230 customs, and for the addition of SR200TB.

@SWD for Stamina: Can you educate me on this? IIRC SWD has unimpressive balance, and its pure Stamina isn't that impressive. Of course, I haven't seen it spin for like ever, so I could definitely be wrong.

attack section: Could we add Vulcan? Pretty please with a cherry on top? XD It's one of my favorite wheels! I really like the smash you can get out of it on 85. Granted, it's not particularly high-powered, but it's so clean and consistent. Plus, I have a mess of Clear Wheels that look really cool with it.

@No Libra in the Stamina section: WHAT??? Seriously? Libra is insane! It out-spins earth, and even Burn sometimes! I have no idea why the thing isn't there.

Do you guys have the mold 2 Libra? 'Cause IIRC mold 1 isn't that great. If you're getting bad results for Stamina, that might be the cause. IMO Libra is an absolute must-have. Of course, results for Libra in Stamina testing seem to be quite inconsistent and controversial, and different people with different wheels are saying different things. However, from what I've seen, most of the time, the two camps are distinctly separated by the molds of Libra they own.

All I know is that I've witnessed a mold 2 Libra take down a Takara Burn in an LTSC mirror match 6-4, with no KO's. However, I haven't tested it much myself, so I probably shouldn't get into discussing it much.

It would be cool if I could get a quick explanation for these points. I'm sure you guys had good reasons for doing what you did.

Sweet, TBD responds! Let's get going!

MF-M Stuff: I've found different from informal testing and others seemed to agree, but I'll do some formal testing in the next couple of days seeing as your reasoning looks pretty good.

Gravity LTAC: Have you tried either of those against Bakushin? Gravity's overhang is critical against it.

TH170 on Cosmic: Would love to see more testing from other users if that's the case, or I'll do it myself when I get mine from Shining God MS.

CS Defense: Did you miss all the CS "defense" combos whistling past your ear as they're violently thrown out of the stadium by Ray of all things? It's not good enough to be here for defense, but it could be shifted into balance, perhaps (stamina to outspin defense, defense to take some attack, mild aggression for some KO's maybe), which is probably a more appropriate place for CS in general honestly.

TB: TESTS TESTS TESTS WHERE ARE MY TESTS Seriously, I've heard great things but no one has tested TB at all in Limited yet

SWD: It's generally agreed upon in standard as on par with WD, from the testing threads. Another thing I'm buying off SGMS, so I'll know by like february. I would kill for some video of it in action lategame and stuff.

Vulcan: Vulcan LTAC were definitely considered but I want some comparatives with the other options rather than going from memory. Vulcan always struggled really badly with rubber tipped defense, and in Limited, it also has to contend with Big Brother Beat. Would love some comparatives of the two on 85/90/CH120RF, byxis as the cw to keep it all the same

Libra Stamina: Mine's from BB-96 like most peoples, which I think is Mold 3, do you have a different one, because Earth and Burn outspin mine solidly and always have! If your Libra is pulling that off, that's scary, are you using the same height matchups etc (libra's weight+underside let it do nasty things)? I'll retest in a little. PS Seeing as you have Libra, wanna collab on a really good libra discussion thread with me man? Even if we have the same mold I could use a hand with all the testing I think such a thread should include, and if this difference is the case we can give a comprehensive view of it. I mean, only if you don't have something more important to do haha.
(Also I cannot believe libra v burn with no KO's, unless you mean they didn't count them).

EDIT: Nope, Earth still outspins Libra for me, and in fact, I just did a few solo spins and got about 3 mins 40 for both of them (Libra/Earth Pegasis II 145WD), considering Libra is significantly heavier, this also indicates that it has a poorer weight distribution, as I'd alluded to in the past (it does have a lot of weight around its edge but so does Earth, and Libra has more weight mid-way out and towards the centre than Earth does). Add in the fact Libra has significantly more recoil for the same solo spin time, and for me, at least, all of these things seem consistent with what I find from testing the two - Earth is slightly better (FWIW, I don't find Burn better than Earth by a huge amount, no matter which matchups of my multiples of each I use (well, I'm down to one earth now but yeah)).

By the way man, please flick through the post I made right after the list and look at some of my thoughts, I'm super keen for your feedback on them.

I got a bunch of ZG stuff today (No MSF-2's though so I will need some help from people to check if certain things improve enough with them *cough*bahamdia*cough*) so I'll have more thoughts on that in a bit. First off though, I'd recommend people try Gladiator as their Attack Type Crystal Wheel instead of Samurai, mine's the same weight as my heavier samurai and it actually has a bit of smash to it!

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

gravity LTAC: Dang it... gotta get me a Bakushin soon. XD I can see why that would help... is CH120 maybe low enough to take care of that or no?

@TB:

Ah, safe assumptions:

Do I need to introduce you to the concept of "safe assumptions", Shining God MS?

@SWD: Will test that as soon as I can (along with some other things). Sounds interesting.

libra: The Libra actually wasn't mine. XD It was my friend's... but yah, they were both on 90WD IIRC. Burn/Earth were also using Aquario (which I hear isn't as good as Cancer now), so that might have had something to do with it.

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gravity LTAC: Dang it... gotta get me a Bakushin soon. XD I can see why that would help... is CH120 maybe low enough to take care of that or no?

85 does it a lot better, CH120 doesn't get under it, and that's kinda the key with bakushin.

@TB:

Ah, safe assumptions:

Do I need to introduce you to the concept of "safe assumptions", Shining God MS?

Not safe enough for me sorry, TB has only seen use with very heavy wheels (unlike the safe assumptions I was talking about, which were used back in the day, and usually also in re-testing on suitable combos in limited) and that can make a difference, especially on the tall tracks it is used on (things like CH120 are basically always going to rock in a Big-Plastic Disk-Less format with 230 in it. Others may disagree, of course, but personally I would really like to see testing with actual Limited Format parts before, if only because I don't own the part myself yet and I've been let down once or twice before.

libra: The Libra actually wasn't mine. XD It was my friend's... but yah, they were both on 90WD IIRC. Burn/Earth were also using Aquario (which I hear isn't as good as Cancer now), so that might have had something to do with it.

Aw lame, was hoping to offload some of the Libra tests onto someone else haha .
CW could've been the problem, but Earth isn't affected that hugely... Then again, they are very close so maybe that is it. I'll take a quick look at it tomorrow. Libra LTSC are nice for being a bit harder to knock out, but yeah. Libra's overhang also makes 85 riskier than it is for earth/burn so that's a minor issue for it but yeah.

PS: Read my post with the suggestions etc I'm dying of suspense here

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Hmmm... You got a point there. Duo was the lightest thing tested with TB IIRC. Someone should test that. I would, but the fact that I don't have a Metal Fury Duo yet is hindering me from getting any good comparisons out. I guess I might be able to test it with Earth at some point.

I'm in the middle of getting some schoolwork ATM, but when I'm done I'll take a look (and get some testing up here).

Hope you can hold off for another couple hours. XD

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