Okay, I'd personally like to get an update to the list out before the format enters the BeyPoint system in the New Year as I think there are one or two changes that need to be made. I would've done this sooner but I was waiting on a TR145 to arrive, hopefully it's not too late.
Anyways, I've compiled a list of the things I've considered or heard about (unless they lacked solid basis or represented fundamental changes to the format), the pros and cons as I see them, and of course my personal position on them.
RB (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Support
I'm pretty sure no one is actually opposed to this, so we can probably just unban RB immediately.
Pros
- Provides a third 'traditional' defense tip without being too powerful/oppressive or exploitable.
- Slight boost to defense types, maybe.
- Probably shouldn't have been banned in the first place (sorry, my bad!)
Cons
- It IS slightly better than RSF, but not by a significant margin
Thoughts: This seems pretty simple to me.
Gravity (Legal -> Banned)
Moderate Support Neutral, pending further observation
I'm kinda torn here, though mostly because Gravity is my favourite part in MFB which means this is kinda my Old Yeller.
On one hand, Gravity is dominating a lot of tournaments as arguably the most well rounded of the top five attack wheels (Gravity, Lightning, Beat, Cosmic and Wyvang), with the others each having specific flaws usually related to not being dual spin or recoil/stamina trouble, and as a result the others see little use or perhaps just little success (Gravity is also very good in Attack Vs Attack, which could have something to do with both of those things) for standard attack (Wyvang sees some use but seems to be in non-standard attack customs. In addition to this, it's also the best spin stealing wheel in the game even before its Dual Spin – with Dual Spin, it's apparently capable of using F230CF/GCF to outspin everything in the format that can't knock it out, which means it renders Stamina types, even those with EWD, entirely redundant (though this is more a property of F230, Meteo L-Drago F230CF/GCF, the second best spin stealer in the format, is a much less daunting prospect) – pretty much entirely supplanting the otherwise very large and varied list of Competitive Stamina Customs, which at least with Gravity gone isn't so easily done.
The main issue for me is that the amount of dominance Gravity has shown at tournaments where users are willing to use Attack – around 50% of the Winning Combos list from Toronto and like 90% of North Carolina's (somehow those that have seen less attack usage also see less use of it as a Spin Stealer, when the exact opposite should be true) is a lot more than I feel should be the case if it is not overpowered – something which in my opinion Limited should be much tougher on than Standard, given its nature.
In terms of other specific customizations, Gravity D125GCF puts up some impressive numbers (though whether or not it can pull those off in a tournament situation is less certain).
MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK) R145RF is likely the best all-around Attack type in the format by a fair margin – as it turns out, it actually does a lot better against LTDC than my tests showed as I was orienting R145 incorrectly (I went by memory and the rounds I did to check seemed to support the other way, but those didn't include LTDC), and TR145 is also strong, though the lighter weight leaves it even more vulnerable to MF-H Libra CH120RF (which seems to have a slight edge over even the R145 version) and I also don't find it as effective against LTDC, as it needs to use Left Spin to KO them reliably, and weak launching thwarts that (though you could in theory tornado stall the opponent out, if you do that and they don't weak launch, you will get outspun). Gravity is also one of the better wheels for Attack vs Attack due to its Dual Spin, heavy weight, and relatively low recoil, so banning it would probably increase the viability of things like Pegasis (especially as Libra would be less necessary).
And of course, Gravity Perseus F230CF/GCF is also a big threat and was mentioned above in sufficient detail.
On the other hand, none of those combinations are unstoppable (if only due to the presence of Libra which could possibly be a little too strong itself), and even its dominance at other tournaments wasn't enough to convince India to use it/risk attack types in general, while Michigan apparently saw relatively little of it too, or at least it saw little success there.
Removing it would be a hit to Attack both in terms of losing what is arguably its best wheel and in terms of losing easily-beaten but popular opponents (gravity spin steal), at the same time as a stronger defense tip is introduced, though the alternatives to Gravity are probably strong enough for this not to be an issue.
It may also see less popularity if one of the other attack wheels does significantly better against libra+rf but I don't consider that likely.
I definitely overlooked Gravity's potential for spin stealing (I always thought it was too recoil-prone without BD145, but somehow it's harder to KO than Meteo, at least on spin stealing setups), and had I know that at the time, I almost certainly would have recommended it be banned.
Pros:
-Gravity saturates usage statistics aside from areas where Attack is very unsuccessful/unpopular (though gravity spin stealers will probably show up in those soon enough)
-Gravity is arguably and is the strongest wheel of two different types (Attack and also Spin Stealers (and maybe Stamina as a whole)).
-Banning it will increase variation in attack wheels used, as its successors are much more evenly balanced with respect to each other
-Is somewhat polarising for the format as an Attack wheel, due to good performance against other Attack wheels and the fact other very powerful customs are almost necessary to beat it (though obviously, this is less of an issue in practice given the whole attack type tournament usage thing)
-Spin Stealers become less powerful without Gravity, which will allow the rather large list of competitive stamina customs to see some use (though I'd be surprised if that helped much more than those using EWD in areas with F230's around).
Cons
-Is a hit to Attack, and Attack only seemed overpowered in North Carolina's tournament
-Gravity is one of the more interesting wheels in the format in terms of the balance type setups it makes possible
-It's not really broken, though it definitely cuts it close, but then brokeness isn't necessary for a part to be banned in limited (which is one of the key differences between Limited and Standard).
-High usage for attack at least may well go down with time as people try alternatives over time.
Thoughts: This will probably depend on people's opinions on the direction we should be taking with Limited's banlist, but I personally think the format would be improved in terms of number of viable parts, tournament combo variety and overall enjoyability with Gravity banned, and see little cost in doing so, and so I would support a ban.
Spin Stealer Nerf: F230, B:D and EWD (Legal -> Banned)
Moderate Support if Gravity remains legal/Weak to Moderate Support pending further observation if Gravity is banned/Weak Support for F230 and Oppose for B:D/EWD if RDF is unbanned. EDIT: Moderate Support for F230 in all cases
Pros:
-Spin Stealers are very limited in terms of variety compared to what they render pointless.
-Makes the rather varied Stamina type worthwhile (or only EWD Stamina types, if only F230 is banned), making a number of parts competitive or viable (FS, for example, is not actually a bad stamina tip by any means, but it cannot handle spin stealers)
-Removes a lot of Gravity's dominance without hurting attack directly (will make defense more viable, hurting attack indirectly, however)
-Doesn't completely destroy Spin Stealers as EDS and WD etc still work against Defense
-Makes Defense more worthwhile and rewards skill with the type (aggro launching vs stamina)
-Makes tournaments more enjoyable, seeing as Spin Steal matches take a long time and there have been complaints about this.
-A step towards making SA165 balanced in Limited.
-F230, or at least the most important version of it, is very difficult/expensive to obtain while also a very powerful part, which kinda hurts one of Limited's main assets: how approachable it is for a lot of players (particularly people with aging collections who lost interest because they couldn't afford new stuff to stay competitive or whatever). I know this is a pretty contentious reason so feel free to disregard it, but personally I think it kinda sucks, even speaking as someone who does have access to it/will have one in the next couple of months.
Cons
-May be best to see if this is necessary with Gravity banned if that happens
-F230 is a very interesting part, but we probably want to avoid a complex ban (on F230 with CF or GCF)
-Some would argue Spin Stealer dominance over stamina is normal based on previous generations
-If RDF is legalised, removing EWD is a bad idea.
-Again, a case where something isn't so much broken (all of these can be knocked out after all) as it is bad/unhealthy for the format.
Thoughts: I don't expect this to happen this time around (especially as a ban on Gravity could rebalance things somewhat though anything more than making EWD Stamina viable is unlikely), and imagine most of you are questioning my sanity right now, however I do feel it is in the best interests of the format, given they basically outclass stamina entirely (barring EWD users (which is very bad for tall tracks) in the case of EWD and B:D).
Libra (Legal -> Banned)
Moderate Oppose (May Change in Future)
Pros:
-Libra is significantly heavier than the rest of the format
-Stronger than I initially thought, now I have a good RF
-MF-H Libra CH120RF is definitely one of the format's best combos
-Its presence significantly decreases the viability of a sizeable number of attack wheels (mostly lighter ones, most noticeably Pegasis, which is good enough to be considered 'competitive' if Libra isn't common in the area)
-Banning it is a big step towards SA165 becoming legal, though Libra is more important IMO.
Cons:
-Removing Libra allows the stronger attack types (especially gravity) to KO nearly the entire format.
-Its combinations do not seem to actually be broken yet, though this should be watched closely if Gravity is banned.
-Even with the sizeable hype behind it, Libra has not seen overwhelming popularity (though this could change once everyone gets their BB-96's for Christmas).
-The performance of its most threatening uses is very much dependent on the condition of the RF it is used on.
Thoughts: Libra is a wheel to watch, especially if Gravity is banned, but for the time being it seems okay to me.
SA165 (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Oppose (May Change in Future)
Pros:
-A very cool track
-Good for all three types
-Gives defense a boost without making them completely destroy attack (Libra anti-attack on the other hand...)
-Rebalances right spin attack vs left spin attack slightly
Cons
-MF-H Libra SA165RF (ZGA Mode) is pretty ridiculously broken (think MF Libra CH120RF in its time, maybe a bit scarier even).
-Gravity also benefits too much from access to it.
-If RDF is introduced, further problems arise.
-Does wreck LTAC, though really using anything so low that this is a problem (CH120 is tall enough to be fine) is already struggling with 230 anyway.
Conditions for future support: Libra, Gravity, RDF, EWD, B:D and F230 (at least in combination with CF/GCF) would all need to be banned, at which point it would still be best to only introduce it on a trial basis given its weight and the fact Attack usage relies so heavily on confidence.
Thoughts: Maybe in the future, but definitely not this time around.
RDF (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Oppose (May Change in Future)
Pros:
-Opens up a number of interesting customization possibilities
-Reigns in Left Spin's advantage over Right Spin for Attack types slightly
Cons
-Only worsens the spin stealer issue, as it results in spin stealers which completely wreck even anti-attack (if gravity is banned this is less of a problem, but still an issue)
-In my opinion it's too strong defensively for the format (though less so with a bit of wear), especially as it can be weak launched with little risk and is already a popular defense tip (meaning people will be more inclined to use it).
Thoughts: RDF is too strong at this point, both defensively and in the fact it can be exploited pretty severely by Gravity (and despite its poor survival, I'd not be surprised if LDG could make some use of it). If we ban Gravity, we could look at giving it a trial run in the future, but personally I just don't think that for all the interesting ways it can be used there's any real good to come of it, especially given how much it will hurt confidence in attack types.
Metal Fury Scythe and Beat and also Wyvang are worth keeping an eye on, and I still want testing on Omega, but for the time being they aren't really worth discussing.
Okay so thoughts?
EDIT: I've noticed people seem to be forgetting that Limited is not (at least as far as I am aware/concerned) the same as Standard in terms of the requirements for a ban. This format is focused on making a wide range of parts viable, with an aim of a more varied format (centred around the lighter wheels that don't see use in any format otherwise), and the bans I've recommended were for that, not because the parts are broken - Gravity does push the lines a little in certain Attack setups because it's heavy, relatively low recoil, dual spin and capable of hitting opponents of all heights hard on a single track (R145, wings under gaps/sloped sections, TR145 also does pretty good), but Libra+RF is a viable check (it's not 100% reliable, but it's quite solid and a very viable setup itself).
The Spin Stealer parts on the other hand are entirely because they're holding back/overshadowing a much larger number of parts that would otherwise be competitive, as well as a massive amount of additional tactical part choices in terms of track heights and even tips for those heights (for example, on 230, WD seems to outperform D in 1v1 at least with Earth, but against other heights D is a much better choice whereas WD sacrifices a lot of the advantages of tall tracks due to how wide an angle it can wobble at), and these spin stealers can be removed without completely invalidating spin stealers as a whole, as they are still very capable of using other tips to outspin defense while being harder to KO than standard stamina due to weak launching. F230(G)CF does strike me as a very strong setup, particularly with Gravity around, but on the whole the fact Attack does have an advantage over other types prevents it from being broken (though areas where people steadfastly refuse to use Attack will suffer for it, that's their own fault).
Oh and uh, this was posted here (and written with Advanced Members in mind in terms of assumed knowledge etc) because I'm not really used to the public discussion threads being around etc. It's being discussed in the public thread anyway tho so yeah.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
![[Image: beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/VLksgt2k/beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg)
is manageable, Gravity D125 GCF is rather niche, height-wise, and who here doesn't like to watch attack battles.
![[Image: AqKPC.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/AqKPC.jpg)
