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Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Printable Version

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Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Ingulit - Dec. 07, 2013

:: MFB: Limited ::
Official Ban List Discussion

I'm going to spare us a huge intro since I'm betting we've all seen Limited by this point, but in case anyone needs to be caught up to speed here are the main threads: Now that that's out of the way, this thread is for the official discussion of the Limited ban list! Much like we do with the competitive custom lists, I'm expecting the majority of the conversation on the ban list to occur in the public discussion, with this thread being the place for us to give the "final word" and push official updates.

To give some extra structure to this, I'd like to propose that we strive to push out an official update to the ban list once every two months month (preferably on the first day of the second month, meaning the first update would occur February 1st). The updates don't have to be complete overhauls, or even include any changes at all; I just want to have a set date when updates happen to give us some extra structure while maintaining the goal of a dynamic ban list.

Having bimonthly updates would also give us some time between updates, meaning:
  1. people can more readily prepare for tournaments without worrying about snap bannings at unscheduled times (or can plan around the scheduled updates), and
  2. we'd have adequate time to evaluate the Limited metagame such that we can make informed decisions when it comes time to update the ban list.

If you guys are cool with this, the 2014 dates we'd be pushing ban list updates would be as follows:
  • January Xth
  • February 1st
  • March 1st
  • April 1st

  • May 1st
  • June 1st
  • July 1st
  • August 1st
  • September 1st
  • October 1st
  • November 1st
  • December 1st
If you guys think more frequent updates would be prudent, say so and we'll figure that out.

So, to get us started, the first thing I'd like to do is finalize when we would push updates, and then we would talk about the ban list's contents after that.

I'll attach the most recent ban list and an archive of updates below. Let's get to it!



:: Current Ban List ::
v1.5, 9/20/16


Limited Ban List v1.5, 9/20/16 Wrote:CHANGE LIST
Newly Banned
  • CRYSTAL/ELEMENT WHEEL: Dark Knight/Ronin
Newly Unbanned
  • WHEEL: Gravity (and all Perseus Clear Wheels)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
WHEELS
  • All Synchroms (NOTE: Non-Synchromed Zero-G wheels are legal!)
  • All 4D/Hyperblade Metal Wheels EXCEPT Jade
  • Basalt
  • Hell
  • Libra
CRYSTAL/ELEMENT WHEELS
  • Dark Knight/Ronin
TRACKS
  • BD145
  • SA165
  • E230
  • SP230
BOTTOMS
  • RDF



:: Old Ban Lists ::


v1.5, 9/20/16 (Click to View)

v1.4, 9/7/15 (Click to View)

v1.3, 5/3/15 (Click to View)

v1.2, 3/1/14 (Click to View)

v1.1, 1/20/14 (Click to View)

v1.0, 12/4/13 (Click to View)



RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Dec. 11, 2013

As much as I like the idea of a schedule, I also think it's important to be flexible in terms of being able to, in particular, ban things quickly if they become problematic, which I do think is going to be important given the nature of this format and the fact it's just starting out. While I'm very much against reactionary rebalancing bans, if a combo is clearly broken and that brokeness is caused by a part, I'd like to be able to reach a consensus and ban the part quickly. Add in the fact that "nah we're good this month" is a valid response and I'm not sure how your bi-monthly schedule will fare.

Also while I enjoy a good prank as much as the next guy, can we agree to leave limited's ban list out of the April 1 shenanigans? It doesn't help that the time zone difference means it's often April 2 here before you guys start, but really I don't think a ban list is the place to play pranks. Also it would be difficult to come up with anything original. Sure, some people will fall for "HEY WE'RE UNBANNING BASALT IT'S CLEARLY NOT BROKEN" but it's hardly a masterwork of rusemanship is it?


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Dec. 23, 2013

Okay, I'd personally like to get an update to the list out before the format enters the BeyPoint system in the New Year as I think there are one or two changes that need to be made. I would've done this sooner but I was waiting on a TR145 to arrive, hopefully it's not too late.

Anyways, I've compiled a list of the things I've considered or heard about (unless they lacked solid basis or represented fundamental changes to the format), the pros and cons as I see them, and of course my personal position on them.


RB (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Support

I'm pretty sure no one is actually opposed to this, so we can probably just unban RB immediately.

Pros
- Provides a third 'traditional' defense tip without being too powerful/oppressive or exploitable.
- Slight boost to defense types, maybe.
- Probably shouldn't have been banned in the first place (sorry, my bad!)

Cons
- It IS slightly better than RSF, but not by a significant margin

Thoughts: This seems pretty simple to me.



Gravity (Legal -> Banned)
Moderate Support Neutral, pending further observation

Lengthy Explanation/Examination (Click to View)

Pros:
-Gravity saturates usage statistics aside from areas where Attack is very unsuccessful/unpopular (though gravity spin stealers will probably show up in those soon enough)
-Gravity is arguably and is the strongest wheel of two different types (Attack and also Spin Stealers (and maybe Stamina as a whole)).
-Banning it will increase variation in attack wheels used, as its successors are much more evenly balanced with respect to each other
-Is somewhat polarising for the format as an Attack wheel, due to good performance against other Attack wheels and the fact other very powerful customs are almost necessary to beat it (though obviously, this is less of an issue in practice given the whole attack type tournament usage thing)
-Spin Stealers become less powerful without Gravity, which will allow the rather large list of competitive stamina customs to see some use (though I'd be surprised if that helped much more than those using EWD in areas with F230's around).

Cons
-Is a hit to Attack, and Attack only seemed overpowered in North Carolina's tournament
-Gravity is one of the more interesting wheels in the format in terms of the balance type setups it makes possible
-It's not really broken, though it definitely cuts it close, but then brokeness isn't necessary for a part to be banned in limited (which is one of the key differences between Limited and Standard).
-High usage for attack at least may well go down with time as people try alternatives over time.

Thoughts: This will probably depend on people's opinions on the direction we should be taking with Limited's banlist, but I personally think the format would be improved in terms of number of viable parts, tournament combo variety and overall enjoyability with Gravity banned, and see little cost in doing so, and so I would support a ban.


Spin Stealer Nerf: F230, B:D and EWD (Legal -> Banned)
Moderate Support if Gravity remains legal/Weak to Moderate Support pending further observation if Gravity is banned/Weak Support for F230 and Oppose for B:D/EWD if RDF is unbanned. EDIT: Moderate Support for F230 in all cases

Pros:
-Spin Stealers are very limited in terms of variety compared to what they render pointless.
-Makes the rather varied Stamina type worthwhile (or only EWD Stamina types, if only F230 is banned), making a number of parts competitive or viable (FS, for example, is not actually a bad stamina tip by any means, but it cannot handle spin stealers)
-Removes a lot of Gravity's dominance without hurting attack directly (will make defense more viable, hurting attack indirectly, however)
-Doesn't completely destroy Spin Stealers as EDS and WD etc still work against Defense
-Makes Defense more worthwhile and rewards skill with the type (aggro launching vs stamina)
-Makes tournaments more enjoyable, seeing as Spin Steal matches take a long time and there have been complaints about this.
-A step towards making SA165 balanced in Limited.
-F230, or at least the most important version of it, is very difficult/expensive to obtain while also a very powerful part, which kinda hurts one of Limited's main assets: how approachable it is for a lot of players (particularly people with aging collections who lost interest because they couldn't afford new stuff to stay competitive or whatever). I know this is a pretty contentious reason so feel free to disregard it, but personally I think it kinda sucks, even speaking as someone who does have access to it/will have one in the next couple of months.

Cons
-May be best to see if this is necessary with Gravity banned if that happens
-F230 is a very interesting part, but we probably want to avoid a complex ban (on F230 with CF or GCF)
-Some would argue Spin Stealer dominance over stamina is normal based on previous generations
-If RDF is legalised, removing EWD is a bad idea.
-Again, a case where something isn't so much broken (all of these can be knocked out after all) as it is bad/unhealthy for the format.

Thoughts: I don't expect this to happen this time around (especially as a ban on Gravity could rebalance things somewhat though anything more than making EWD Stamina viable is unlikely), and imagine most of you are questioning my sanity right now, however I do feel it is in the best interests of the format, given they basically outclass stamina entirely (barring EWD users (which is very bad for tall tracks) in the case of EWD and B:D).


Libra (Legal -> Banned)
Moderate Oppose (May Change in Future)

Pros:
-Libra is significantly heavier than the rest of the format
-Stronger than I initially thought, now I have a good RF
-MF-H Libra CH120RF is definitely one of the format's best combos
-Its presence significantly decreases the viability of a sizeable number of attack wheels (mostly lighter ones, most noticeably Pegasis, which is good enough to be considered 'competitive' if Libra isn't common in the area)
-Banning it is a big step towards SA165 becoming legal, though Libra is more important IMO.

Cons:
-Removing Libra allows the stronger attack types (especially gravity) to KO nearly the entire format.
-Its combinations do not seem to actually be broken yet, though this should be watched closely if Gravity is banned.
-Even with the sizeable hype behind it, Libra has not seen overwhelming popularity (though this could change once everyone gets their BB-96's for Christmas).
-The performance of its most threatening uses is very much dependent on the condition of the RF it is used on.

Thoughts: Libra is a wheel to watch, especially if Gravity is banned, but for the time being it seems okay to me.


SA165 (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Oppose (May Change in Future)

Pros:
-A very cool track
-Good for all three types
-Gives defense a boost without making them completely destroy attack (Libra anti-attack on the other hand...)
-Rebalances right spin attack vs left spin attack slightly

Cons
-MF-H Libra SA165RF (ZGA Mode) is pretty ridiculously broken (think MF Libra CH120RF in its time, maybe a bit scarier even).
-Gravity also benefits too much from access to it.
-If RDF is introduced, further problems arise.
-Does wreck LTAC, though really using anything so low that this is a problem (CH120 is tall enough to be fine) is already struggling with 230 anyway.

Conditions for future support: Libra, Gravity, RDF, EWD, B:D and F230 (at least in combination with CF/GCF) would all need to be banned, at which point it would still be best to only introduce it on a trial basis given its weight and the fact Attack usage relies so heavily on confidence.

Thoughts: Maybe in the future, but definitely not this time around.



RDF (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Oppose (May Change in Future)

Pros:
-Opens up a number of interesting customization possibilities
-Reigns in Left Spin's advantage over Right Spin for Attack types slightly

Cons
-Only worsens the spin stealer issue, as it results in spin stealers which completely wreck even anti-attack (if gravity is banned this is less of a problem, but still an issue)
-In my opinion it's too strong defensively for the format (though less so with a bit of wear), especially as it can be weak launched with little risk and is already a popular defense tip (meaning people will be more inclined to use it).

Thoughts: RDF is too strong at this point, both defensively and in the fact it can be exploited pretty severely by Gravity (and despite its poor survival, I'd not be surprised if LDG could make some use of it). If we ban Gravity, we could look at giving it a trial run in the future, but personally I just don't think that for all the interesting ways it can be used there's any real good to come of it, especially given how much it will hurt confidence in attack types.



Metal Fury Scythe and Beat and also Wyvang are worth keeping an eye on, and I still want testing on Omega, but for the time being they aren't really worth discussing.


Okay so thoughts?
EDIT: I've noticed people seem to be forgetting that Limited is not (at least as far as I am aware/concerned) the same as Standard in terms of the requirements for a ban. This format is focused on making a wide range of parts viable, with an aim of a more varied format (centred around the lighter wheels that don't see use in any format otherwise), and the bans I've recommended were for that, not because the parts are broken - Gravity does push the lines a little in certain Attack setups because it's heavy, relatively low recoil, dual spin and capable of hitting opponents of all heights hard on a single track (R145, wings under gaps/sloped sections, TR145 also does pretty good), but Libra+RF is a viable check (it's not 100% reliable, but it's quite solid and a very viable setup itself).

The Spin Stealer parts on the other hand are entirely because they're holding back/overshadowing a much larger number of parts that would otherwise be competitive, as well as a massive amount of additional tactical part choices in terms of track heights and even tips for those heights (for example, on 230, WD seems to outperform D in 1v1 at least with Earth, but against other heights D is a much better choice whereas WD sacrifices a lot of the advantages of tall tracks due to how wide an angle it can wobble at), and these spin stealers can be removed without completely invalidating spin stealers as a whole, as they are still very capable of using other tips to outspin defense while being harder to KO than standard stamina due to weak launching. F230(G)CF does strike me as a very strong setup, particularly with Gravity around, but on the whole the fact Attack does have an advantage over other types prevents it from being broken (though areas where people steadfastly refuse to use Attack will suffer for it, that's their own fault).

Oh and uh, this was posted here (and written with Advanced Members in mind in terms of assumed knowledge etc) because I'm not really used to the public discussion threads being around etc. It's being discussed in the public thread anyway tho so yeah.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Ingulit - Jan. 06, 2014

So, I do still want to keep with the bimonthly schedule idea, which means a ban list update is coming rather quickly! These are the main things I'm thinking we should consider and discuss for the upcoming update:
  • I do think unbanning RB would be a good move. It's not overwhelmingly better than RSF in terms of pure defense IMO, and if it proves to be a problem we can nix it later.
    -=-=-=-
  • I'd like to try banning Gravity just because it seems like it is one of the only attackers seeing tournament play (for good reason), and I think it being gone might pave the way for more varied attack wheels seeing use (Screw, Lightning, Leone, Pegasis, etc etc). This would very much be an experiment, and if it turns out that Gravity being gone makes stuff like Libra too good than we might need to think about unbanning it later.
    -=-=-=-
  • Metal Fury Scythe is putting up some scary numbers on a number of customs, and I'll admit the warning signs are there of the format becoming "Scythe and Things-That-Beat-Scythe." It might really need to be something we ban due to being outright too good if reasonable counters aren't found soon (possibly with the ideally-soon-to-be-unbanned RB, perhaps?), though I'd really hate to see it go Unhappy


These are things I think we should keep our eyes on, but that don't need banning/unbanning immediately:
  • RDF should probably stay banned due to pure defensive ability. Ironically, Gravity being gone both means it is less exploitable and less beatable in this format, haha!
    -=-=-=-
  • SA165 should stay banned right now; it's simply too heavy, such that it would invalidate the rest of the defensive tracks being used right now. I'm personally a big fan of R145 being used for defense due to its weight since it's a somewhat risky choice, and that fun interaction would be gone with SA165[ZGAttack] in the picture.
    -=-=-=-
  • I don't think EWD should ever get the axe, personally; it's not THAT much better than WD for/against spin-stealing, and its legality isn't invalidating other parts. It has less raw stamina than WD in my experience, meaning one has to decide if one wants better standard stamina in WD or a better match-up against opposite spin with EWD, which is a fun choice to have to make.
    -=-=-=-
  • I think B: D is fine right now, especially if we decide to try banning Gravity. Attack seems very common in this format, which keeps this in check very well.
    -=-=-=-
  • F230 is something to keep our eyes on, but I don't feel like it needs a ban currently.
    -=-=-=-
  • We need to keep an eye on Libra ofc, but for the moment I think it's fine.
If I missed anything let me know.



To summarize, this is what I'd propose for the next update:

Ban List v1.1 PROPOSAL Wrote:Newly Banned
  • WHEEL: Gravity
  • MAYBE WHEEL: Scythe (Metal Fury)
Newly Unbanned
  • BOTTOM: RB



RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Jan. 06, 2014

Opposed to everything but Scythe, entirely because both things make Scythe even more broken, and reduce Attack to being completely unusable. Making either of those changes with Scythe around is completely foolish.

If we ban Scythe, then I'm all for unbanning RB, but suggest waiting a little longer on Gravity and seeing if other wheels emerge, based on discussion in the public thread and testing that has occurred since.

I also still think Bi-Monthly updates are pointless bureaucracy, too. We've not had to use them in the past and our reasons for banning things do not seem to have changed significantly anyway, and in return we get either delayed or rushed decisions negatively impacting attendees experience, which is the number one most important thing to the success of this format. For unbanning stuff for experimentation and so on, by all means yes that's fine and good, but when something blatantly broken comes along, I'd rather limit any potential damage than expose new participants to it, shall we say.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Ingulit - Jan. 06, 2014

After talking with th!nk about the ban list update schedule, we've come up with an revised update schedule system that we think is pretty good:
  1. Every two months there will be a scheduled ban list update, which will be focused on banning or unbanning parts with the goal of ensuring the largest number of parts are viable or to experiment with banning/unbanning something for awhile. This is the same as before, but with one exception:
  2. If a part is shown by enough people's test results to be not just good, but definitely broken in Limited, then that part might get emergency banned outside of the bimonthly schedule.
The idea is that ideally all the broken parts for Limited are always banned, such that the bimonthly updates can focus on experimentation, and such that we don't have to deal with broken parts for a full two months before we are able to act on it.

(I'm going to post this both in the Advanced forum and in the public discussion so that everyone, especially tournament hosts, is aware of this change)


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Kei - Jan. 07, 2014

I haven't been able to keep up with all of the discussions lately, but for me, the only part I'm certain needs to be banned is Gravity. I hate to say it, but the balance of attributes (attack, stamina, weight, dual-spin, low recoil) it has is just too great; it makes using other Attack Wheels seem almost pointless, it makes F230CF/GCF far scarier than it should be in Limited, and that D125GCF combo seems to be really good too. It's not unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination, but the same thing could have been said about Basalt and we all know that it should have been banned back when it was dominant.

Like you said th!nk, "This format is focused on making a wide range of parts viable, with an aim of a more varied format"; Gravity is the ultimate Limited Format Wheel, and as such, it reduces the number of truly competitive choices players have available to them. It should be banned. We would have to keep an eye on Libra for the next revision, as has been mentioned, but for now I think it's OK to leave Libra alone.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Jan. 07, 2014

The main reason I'm concerned about banning gravity is that after playing with the alternatives such as Beat, Phoenic, Bahamdia and Wyvang, it's a bigger hit to attack than I'd initially anticipated, and as we've seen a lot of exploration defensively (LTDC, R145 > GB145), I worry that we're going to have a big negative impact on gameplay. Kinda hoping other wheels catch on or at least that gravity attack does something about F230CF, but perhaps that's wishful thinking fuelled by the fact gravity is my favourite MFB wheel, especially with me not finding any true offensive equals (though I don't have Cosmic just yet so maybe...)


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Uwik - Jan. 07, 2014

If Gravity is gone, then that only leaves LDrago, Lightning, and Meteo as the remaining left spinners, right? Wouldn't that bring back the age of 230 stamina all over again?

I've personally never considered Gravity to be a big issue in the past, but this was pre F230 GCF/CF. I mean, if you take away F230, then the majority of Gravity combinations would be attack-based, right? Gravity B:D is manageable, Gravity D125 GCF is rather niche, height-wise, and who here doesn't like to watch attack battles.

Unban RB, ban F230, and leave Gravity alone.

Also, would it be a good idea to start unbanning obsolete 4D metal wheels?


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Jan. 07, 2014

(Jan. 07, 2014  9:01 AM)Uwik Wrote: If Gravity is gone, then that only leaves LDrago, Lightning, and Meteo as the remaining left spinners, right? Wouldn't that bring back the age of 230 stamina all over again?

I've personally never considered Gravity to be a big issue in the past, but this was pre F230 GCF/CF. I mean, if you take away F230, then the majority of Gravity combinations would be attack-based, right? Gravity BGrin is manageable, Gravity D125 GCF is rather niche, height-wise, and who here doesn't like to watch attack battles.

Unban RB, ban F230, and leave Gravity alone.

Also, would it be a good idea to start unbanning obsolete 4D metal wheels?

All of the obsolete 4D wheels bar Omega IIRC are at least as heavy as Libra when you account for a Clear Wheel, so generally they're unsafe. Tri messaged me to say he was testing Omega, so I'd like to think we might be able to slip a decision on that into the February update if it turns out to be okay. The others, I'd like to see testing on just based on their weight alone. I have Kreis coming, though that's the most likely to be completely broken of the three that aren't known for sure to be obscenely broken anyhow (all of the rest of the 4D wheels that never saw serious use can reliably KO the entire format as anti-attackers due to their sheer weight - they were very clearly intended for a post-basalt metagame).

I would much prefer to ban F230 in terms of what it would do to the format than banning Gravity, but to be fair we *do* have Dark Knight which is very nice against taller opponents and left spin.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Kei - Jan. 08, 2014

F230CF/GCF without Gravity isn't much of a problem, but yes, we could ban F230CF/GCF (I wouldn't ban F230 alone; the issue is F230 + CF/GCF). However, that doesn't do anything about how good Gravity is for Attack. And I find it hard to believe that none of the countless other options we have are viable.

By the way, I really liked Cosmic from the tests I did with it last month. I had a Cosmic combo prepared for A YEAR: The Month of Frozen Heads, but I had no reason to use it with Gravity available to me. I'm not really in any position to say how it compares to the other Wheels we have available right now, though.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Uwik - Jan. 08, 2014

(Jan. 07, 2014  9:08 AM)th!nk Wrote: I would much prefer to ban F230 in terms of what it would do to the format than banning Gravity, but to be fair we *do* have Dark Knight which is very nice against taller opponents and left spin.

Ahh yes, for some reason, my brain just completely erase Zero G wheels from the Limited format, lol.

(Jan. 08, 2014  1:51 AM)Kei Wrote: F230CF/GCF without Gravity isn't much of a problem, but yes, we could ban F230CF/GCF (I wouldn't ban F230 alone; the issue is F230 + CF/GCF). However, that doesn't do anything about how good Gravity is for Attack. And I find it hard to believe that none of the countless other options we have are viable.

Hmm, is the F230 GCF/CF setup heavily dependent on opposite spins? If so, then it's best if Gravity is banned, but if not, then banning just the F230 should do the trick.

If right spin F230 GCF/CF still overpowers other right spin combinations, then what's stopping Libra/Sycthe F230 CF/GCF to dominate.

If only opposite spin F230 GCF/CF works, then yeah, maybe it's time to put Gravity on the ban list. I still feel quite iffy having so few left spin wheels left though.

As for Gravity attack customs, is it really that good? I recall it being on par with perhaps Ray.. hahaha (This is just me personally, no hatin' please)


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Dark_Mousy - Jan. 08, 2014

Personally I would be up for banning F230. Gravity Spin stealers are some what prevalent in this format. I truly believe that if we get rid of F230 we could keep gravity. Gravity is amazing don't get me wrong, but Gravity attack types can be beaten. F230 is just to OP for this format.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Jan. 08, 2014

(Jan. 08, 2014  1:51 AM)Kei Wrote: By the way, I really liked Cosmic from the tests I did with it last month. I had a Cosmic combo prepared for A YEAR: The Month of Frozen Heads, but I had no reason to use it with Gravity available to me. I'm not really in any position to say how it compares to the other Wheels we have available right now, though.

This says a lot to me. While I would prefer to hold off for two more months while we introduce RB, if we ban Scythe and unban Omega assuming it continues to perform like it has so far, I'd be fine with banning Gravity this month.

(Jan. 08, 2014  4:31 AM)Uwik Wrote: As for Gravity attack customs, is it really that good? I recall it being on par with perhaps Ray.. hahaha (This is just me personally, no hatin' please)
I'd say it really is that good, yes.
Opposite spin is necessary for F230CF/GCF from what I can tell, but left spin wheels still make good use of it. Luckily aside from Gravity most of them have pretty awful stamina or are Meteo, which is very lightweight.

(Jan. 08, 2014  4:56 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: Personally I would be up for banning F230. Gravity Spin stealers are some what prevalent in this format. I truly believe that if we get rid of F230 we could keep gravity. Gravity is amazing don't get me wrong, but Gravity attack types can be beaten. F230 is just to OP for this format.

A lot of the concern about gravity is because it's dominating attack type usage, so idk. That would also still leave Gravity D125GCF etc around and some people feel those are broken (personally I would like to see if they're actually practical for tournament use first, given I tend to self KO with them a lot).


If we do want to just get rid of Gravity on F230 and D125 CF/GCF, TheBlackDragon raised a valid point in the public thread that we could just ban CF and GCF and leave F230 and Gravity alone. I assume most of you will be opposed to this because CF and GCF aren't broken in and of themselves, but personally, I'd support it on the basis that it'd probably result in a more directly aggressive format.

Interested in everyone's thoughts on Omega though. Kei, you've used it, any thoughts?

EDIT: Going to propose that we unban Omega in this update. Here's the testing thread, basically it seems a little less powerful than Gravity and doesn't beat gravity in attack vs attack despite its weight. Introducing it might help soften the blow from a potential gravity ban and RB's introduction.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Kei - Jan. 10, 2014

(Jan. 08, 2014  4:31 AM)Uwik Wrote: Hmm, is the F230 GCF/CF setup heavily dependent on opposite spins? If so, then it's best if Gravity is banned, but if not, then banning just the F230 should do the trick.

If right spin F230 GCF/CF still overpowers other right spin combinations, then what's stopping Libra/Sycthe F230 CF/GCF to dominate.

If only opposite spin F230 GCF/CF works, then yeah, maybe it's time to put Gravity on the ban list. I still feel quite iffy having so few left spin wheels left though.

Yeah, that's why it's so good. In Standard Format where Gravity is not viable, there's always a bit of luck involved when using F230CF/GCF because it's much easier to win when you're the opposite spin direction than when you're not (in which case you have to try to KO your opponent). Now, you can switch spin direction as is necessary no matter who you're facing. Obviously, it's not unbeatable (it wasn't easy, but I beat Gravity F230CF with MSF-H Samurai Wyvang (Crystal Up Mode) H145RSF via three consecutive KOs after going down 2-0 in the finals of A YEAR: The Month of Frozen Heads), but it's still an incredibly powerful advantage not only in terms of making it viable as a Stamina combo against everything, but also in terms of helping to defend against Attack combos–which are probably the most reliable way to defeat it–since you can switch to the same spin direction as your opponent to make it more difficult for them to land hard hits.

(Jan. 08, 2014  4:31 AM)Uwik Wrote: As for Gravity attack customs, is it really that good? I recall it being on par with perhaps Ray.. hahaha (This is just me personally, no hatin' please)

Haha, yes. I used to hate Gravity (for some reason) and never used it when it was viable in Standard Format, but now it is very clearly at the top of the tier list for Attack in Limited Format.

(Jan. 08, 2014  4:56 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: Personally I would be up for banning F230. Gravity Spin stealers are some what prevalent in this format. I truly believe that if we get rid of F230 we could keep gravity. Gravity is amazing don't get me wrong, but Gravity attack types can be beaten. F230 is just to OP for this format.

F230 is OP because of Gravity.

(Jan. 08, 2014  8:21 AM)th!nk Wrote: If we do want to just get rid of Gravity on F230 and D125 CF/GCF, TheBlackDragon raised a valid point in the public thread that we could just ban CF and GCF and leave F230 and Gravity alone. I assume most of you will be opposed to this because CF and GCF aren't broken in and of themselves, but personally, I'd support it on the basis that it'd probably result in a more directly aggressive format.

I don't like this idea. Gravity is the source of all the problems, so it should be banned. There's no point in banning F230 or CF/GCF; they aren't the problem.

(Jan. 08, 2014  8:21 AM)th!nk Wrote: Interested in everyone's thoughts on Omega though. Kei, you've used it, any thoughts?

EDIT: Going to propose that we unban Omega in this update. Here's the testing thread, basically it seems a little less powerful than Gravity and doesn't beat gravity in attack vs attack despite its weight. Introducing it might help soften the blow from a potential gravity ban and RB's introduction.

I've always thought that Omega might have been a good Wheel had it been released a year before it actually came out, so I'd be in support of unbanning it for now.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Jan. 10, 2014

I hadn't really considered the same-spin thing against attack, and that's probably a very important point for people who have said "just ko it".

Not to say I told you so, but I was always a big proponent of Gravity Perseus (ATK) being the best attack wheel of its time, at least once I got the hang of RF anyway. I think a lot of people overlooked it as it was initially looked at as a defense wheel (because of its weight IIRC) and because the Attack version of Perseus wasn't widely available (the normal one aint so great in left). Still, if we're going to ban Gravity I'm at least glad it finally got to show us all what it could do haha.


Anyway, on to Metal Fury Scythe.
" L " managed to reproduce most of my tests of the particular combo that is behind my strong belief that this thing needs an emergency ban here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MF-H-Scythe-Pegasis-II-CH120RF
There's also his defense testing here to look at: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MF-H-Scythe-Aquario-GB145RSF - I can't reproduce those results against stamina to that degree (I did manage a couple of outspins when I played around with it by banking hard, where it destabilised Earth to the point earth scraped itself to death on the side of WD and was outspun, but it wasn't reliable) but mine at least does shut down right spin attack like those results show (it's pretty easily handled with left spin, so it basically does exactly what RS does except with much better stamina).
And of course it's a top stamina wheel too, but not broken there.

However, a number of people have stated they don't get results like that at all, there are people who have Duos which outspin it reliably (I don't have a metal fury duo), people who can't get it to KO anything and people who find it very easy to KO. I'm not sure why that's the case - it's not a lack of weight at least as Ingulit is among them and his Scythe is heavier than mine, but at the very least, I'm completely certain that some Metal Fury Scythes are horrendously gamebreaking, and I feel my tests show this.
Given I don't have a Duo (the second best stamina wheel) and that a Perth Limited tournament is actually looking like a realistic possibility well before I can get one, I think you can all trust that I wouldn't call for a ban on this if I didn't think it was absolutely necessary - what I'm seeing is something that is at least as broken as MF Libra CH120RF was in its day.

So, thoughts/ayes or nays on an emergency ban or banning it in the February update etc etc? Obviously I'm strongly in favor of an emergency ban as I strongly dislike the idea of people new to the format seeing one combo basically sweep an entire tournament or at least the vast majority of it and judging the format based on that, hence why I don't want to wait for it to start dominating in tournaments before we ban it (I would rather not feel obliged to spam it through a possible Perth tournament to prove a point at the cost of future participation, personally).


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Nocto - Jan. 10, 2014

(Jan. 10, 2014  5:29 PM)th!nk Wrote: So, thoughts/ayes or nays on emergency ban or banning it in the February update etc etc? Obviously I'm strongly in favor of an emergency ban as I strongly dislike the idea of people new to the format seeing one combo basically sweep an entire tournament or at least the vast majority of it and judging the format based on that, hence why I don't want to wait for it to start dominating in tournaments before we ban it (I would rather not feel obliged to spam it through a possible Perth tournament to prove a point at the cost of future participation, personally).

I'm in favour, but then it removes the point of having bi-monthly (un)ban, unless you intend to unban something every two months for the sake of diversity. Testing (and tournaments) will decide if something is broken, and testing will decide if something is playable. In turn, I'm curious what you think about putting a timer on (un)banned parts instead, so that e.g. you couldn't emergency ban something that was recently unbanned and vice versa.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Jan. 10, 2014

Emergency bans are for things that are clearly gamebreaking, anything we unban in the bimonthly updates would/should be tested for that beforehand (basically "does this murder attack defense and stamina (and generally any major balance combos) y/n") and therefore not require an emergency ban. Bimonthly bans are for things that are not necessarily broken but are bad for the format's health etc.

As for the point of bimonthly bans after the point the format is "stable", a number of us seem to be in support of using them for experimental purposes (personally I'm torn as I don't like the idea of not having "stable" Limited available all the time, but eh).


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Ingulit - Jan. 10, 2014

Based on the discussion thus far, it sounds like this would work as the update for February 1st if you all agree with it:

Ban List v1.1 PROPOSAL Wrote:Emergency Ban???
  • WHEEL: Scythe (Metal Fury)
Newly Banned
  • WHEEL: Gravity
Newly Unbanned
  • WHEEL: Omega
  • BOTTOM: RB

I am still on the fence about Scythe to be honest, so I'll leave that up to discussion.

I'm in the camp that F230/CF/GCF aren't problematic for the format with Gravity banned as has been discussed already.

I'd say RB can be unbanned as it's not so much stronger than RSF such as to cause problems, and because it would be nice to have another "stationary-ish" rubber tip to experiment with other than just CS and RSF.

Omega seems like it'd be fine for the format, as the test results posted earlier show.

If I missed something let me know.



(Jan. 10, 2014  6:47 PM)Nocto Wrote:
(Jan. 10, 2014  5:29 PM)th!nk Wrote: So, thoughts/ayes or nays on emergency ban or banning it in the February update etc etc? Obviously I'm strongly in favor of an emergency ban as I strongly dislike the idea of people new to the format seeing one combo basically sweep an entire tournament or at least the vast majority of it and judging the format based on that, hence why I don't want to wait for it to start dominating in tournaments before we ban it (I would rather not feel obliged to spam it through a possible Perth tournament to prove a point at the cost of future participation, personally).

I'm in favour, but then it removes the point of having bi-monthly (un)ban, unless you intend to unban something every two months for the sake of diversity. Testing (and tournaments) will decide if something is broken, and testing will decide if something is playable. In turn, I'm curious what you think about putting a timer on (un)banned parts instead, so that e.g. you couldn't emergency ban something that was recently unbanned and vice versa.

Check out what I said earlier about how the ban list updates ideally will work:
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Official-Limited-Ban-List-Discussion?pid=1186841#pid1186841


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Jan. 10, 2014

I would agree to that completely, though as mentioned previously, if Scythe isn't banned then I'd oppose everything but Omega being introduced (Omega still gets absolutely wrecked by Scythe Defense from Tri's testing but unlike the other two things it doesn't make the Scythe issue any worse). Gravity is the only attack wheel I've tried that can do anything to both Scythe Defense with a moderately aggressive RSF (and therefore presumably RB) and bakushin LTDC in a single combo, and the only thing I'm missing is Cosmic, so banning Gravity while leaving Scythe out is an extremely irresponsible decision to be honest. If you guys want to wait on Scythe then fine, but at least give me the benefit of the doubt and leave something that can actually do anything to it around, please.

Ingulit, I mean no offense by this and the following is more of a general response to people with Scythes that aren't capable of the same level of carnage mine and " L "s are (also Tri's defensive tests vs omega were p scary too), but I have to say this:
Try to look past the fact your scythe apparently just doesn't work that well and take those results for what they are. My testing is generally reproducible and accurate, and according to it, this thing just wrecks nearly everything. Apparently some scythes don't for some reason (send me pics of yours maybe so I can have a look or whatever as I'd like to see if we can spot anything) but at least two of us have Scythes that do, and have shown that. The fact there seems to be some kind of difference between different Scythes only means holding off for tournament usage is extremely inefficient - between the fact not a huge number of people have scythe at all, let alone a "good" one means that unless someone who has shown they have a "good" one goes to a tournament, and loses with it to something vital the testing showed it was able to beat reliably (because first to three isn't a huge sample size so say vs heavy attack types it could go either way), we get no actual useful data about it from said tournament usage. As I said, I'd rather not have to use Perth as a guinea pig for it.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Nocto - Jan. 10, 2014

(Jan. 10, 2014  9:03 PM)Ingulit Wrote:
(Jan. 10, 2014  6:47 PM)Nocto Wrote:
(Jan. 10, 2014  5:29 PM)th!nk Wrote: So, thoughts/ayes or nays on emergency ban or banning it in the February update etc etc? Obviously I'm strongly in favor of an emergency ban as I strongly dislike the idea of people new to the format seeing one combo basically sweep an entire tournament or at least the vast majority of it and judging the format based on that, hence why I don't want to wait for it to start dominating in tournaments before we ban it (I would rather not feel obliged to spam it through a possible Perth tournament to prove a point at the cost of future participation, personally).

I'm in favour, but then it removes the point of having bi-monthly (un)ban, unless you intend to unban something every two months for the sake of diversity. Testing (and tournaments) will decide if something is broken, and testing will decide if something is playable. In turn, I'm curious what you think about putting a timer on (un)banned parts instead, so that e.g. you couldn't emergency ban something that was recently unbanned and vice versa.

Check out what I said earlier about how the ban list updates ideally will work:
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Official-Limited-Ban-List-Discussion?pid=1186841#pid1186841

I did read it, but I still find it extremely redundant. If you're going to break your schedule for parts that are extremely broken, and if the spirit of the format is to have the most balanced and varied metagame at all time, than it behooves to take a proactive approach to changes, especially since it'll have to be backed up by tests and/or tournaments, and because WBO decision-making isn't what we could call fast (e.g. full-on double-blind rule). I'd rather ban anything wrong as soon as we have enough proof and do the same for unbanning anything that could benefit the game, and live with the decision (i.e. not unban something you banned the week before), than wait for the scheduled update. We know there isn't going to be any decisions taken on a whim anyway.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Jan. 11, 2014

I discussed this with Ingulit the other day, basically the bimonthly thing is to give hosts notice for when we're banning things for being bad for the format rather than being outright broken, and to allow for the possibility of more experimental updates in future (something still to be discussed but I feel we should be focusing on the banlist right now), emergency bans are for things which have shown they're actually gamebreaking (rather than just too dominant or oppressive or w/e).

Still awaiting more input on the Scythe thing guys, would be good to know whether or not I need to start testing a wider range of combos with it rather than other stuff on my list to show it should be banned in the monthly update or whether enough has been done for an emergency ban. I don't mean to be impertinent, but it would help my time allocation/planning etc a lot, and not much is being said anywhere other than people stating their Scythes don't do that which is something I've already covered multiple times.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Jan. 14, 2014

Okay, anything happening with Scythe? Should I bother doing the defense testing I planned? Based on the Scythe GB145RSF thread and Tri's testing in the Omega thread (which wasn't done with an AA2 Scythe, which so far seems to be the variable with MF Scythe PegasisII CH120RF), it's doing more than enough to deserve a ban for format health come February IMO.

I posted some thoughts about it in the Scythe GB145RSF thread today, and I'm willing to spend tomorrow and the remaining life my RSF has left testing to demonstrate it or anything else you guys want to see, but only if it's actually going to matter - i.e. if you guys want to hold off to see if it dominates as one or two of you have suggested to me in private (in which case I have some serious misgivings about the actual value of formally testing things that seem gamebreaking, and I'd also say we should then hold off on Gravity too because Gravity is the only attack wheel I've tried (I have everything but cosmic) that can actually do okay against Scythe and Bakushin Defense, so banning it while leaving Scythe legal is extremely irresponsible), or if the people who haven't posted about it actually agree with banning it so me doing more would be overkill, then please, do let me know ASAP through whatever means you want.


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - Nocto - Jan. 14, 2014

I had compiled all tests in dedicated Scythe threads (bar Scythe vs. Scythe) Saturday morning before going to work, but when I got back you were talking about molds, and it looked as though you were already figuring out what you wanted to do. So, any input from me seemed redundant.

Anyhow, if you break down the testing (as it was in Scythe threads Saturday 7 AM EST), you have:
(rounds won|rounds total|%) All
(rounds won|rounds total|%) th!nk and " L "
(rounds won|rounds total|%) Others

Attack
438 710 61.69
244 350 69.71
194 360 53.89

Defense
80 100 80
80 100 80
No Data No Data 0

Stamina
237 330 71.81
231 310 74.52
6 20 30

Of course, this picture is missing the testing in other threads, but with university having started again, I don't have the time to look through all of them just now.

We can determine that it is generally good for attack, but whether it is too good depends on the tester, because overall, we don't get a game-breaking win rate from a fair number of tests.

The problem lies with Defense and Stamina, where you and " L " get ~70%+ win rate in all three main categories, while we practically have no tests from anyone else (again, in dedicated Scythe threads).

Then is the problem of molds. If AA2 is truly the best molds, we don't know if everyone can replicate your results even if they have that particular mold, or if the mold is common or not. At this point, the tester variable is as meaningful as the mold variable.

Long story short, we don't need more tests per say, but more testers to tip the scale one way or the other. So, no, I don't think it would be useful at all for you to test anymore, nor would it be for " L ".

Until then, or until I'm made aware of elements I've missed (except the Omega thread, which can't be taken at face value in the current discussion), personally, my opinion is leaning towards "no."


RE: Official Limited Ban List Discussion - th!nk - Jan. 14, 2014

FWIW, Trickst3r also tried his AA2 in comparison to his AA3, and again found AA2 worked better in one of the main matchups where other people had questioned the efficacy of MF Scythe PegasisII CH120RF (vs Earth LTSC), whereas of people who have found it ineffective, none of them that have thus far shared what mold they have own an AA2 (TheBlackDragon has an AA3 and Ingulit has an AA4).
The molds shouldn't and do not appear to be distributed any differently as it's not like a regular mold change where they've stopped using one mold after finding something wrong with it or whatever, more that one particular mold Hasbro used in their batches seems to have resulted in wheels that perform slightly better (presumably from more edge-focused weight) - generally A# or AA# are distributed relatively evenly.

Other people haven't posted their molds or generally commented on its performance in the combinations seeing discussion, in fact there's a general lack of conflicting results for Defense or CH120RF stuff (FWIW I wouldn't call that Attack, its stamina is a big part of dealing with anti-attack and bakushin LTDC, and its defensive shape and weight are important for handling attack types), which I guess I understand - I don't like wearing parts if something seems pointless. Kinda annoying combined with other stuff that seems to indicate testing is a lot less valued than it should be, but eh, probably just me being tired, grouchy and frustrated after spending a few hours trying and failing to find something other than gravity that can do a decent job against both bakushin and scythe defense, haha.