Official Limited Ban List Discussion

HMS is an entire system of Dual-Spin beyblades, and applying it to that era would be a very dramatic change, which I would not be okay with. It doesn't affect plastics unless using Gyro Engine Gear or w/e Flame Pegasus' Gyro thing is called in Gyro Mode is legal (I remember it not being, because I checked pretty hard to find a basis for that being from takara and didn't find one), and even then it's not exactly a great part anyway.

Generally speaking though, I would not want to change the rule for any format but Limited, honestly.
Okay so I'm told by reliable sources that Scythe partied hard in NC today - 230CS and B : D in particular - I'm sure winning combos will be posted soon enough but there has already ben some discussion of it so I'm going to go ahead and post this. Apparently someone without a tonne of experience using Scythe B : D/Scythe TH170 CS using the ol' AA2 Scythe did awesome in their block too. Now keep in mind this is an area where the two main options for KOing 145-height scythe defense (omega, lightning) were in big use too (and both of them, less so omega but more on that in a moment, struggle with Scythe Low Track (Anti) Attack - which given the right CW (capricorne seems best so far) and a good Scythe with the right CW can handle tall track balance okay from what I've seen) and while I'm not sure whether or not that particular type of Scythe combination showed up there, the fact that the area's previously heavy usage of 145-height Lightning Attack did little to discourage the use of Scythe 230CS in particular is something I would say is quite significant. Scythe Defense also scored a win in CT against a low track attack custom (the same scythe that lost to Thermal in a B: D vs B: D Matchup, but more on that in a bit). Apparently nearly the full range of Scythe combos saw successful usage, even with an extremely powerful attack wheel in Omega also being quite prominent. So far the main counterargument I've heard is that Scythe B: D or 230CS was knocked out by attack and that Scythe was beaten with Scythe - not exactly what I would consider compelling evidence. In addition to this, as I don't think I've posted it anywhere prominently aside from venting at one point, I also have another explanation for why Metal Fury Scythe should not be legal based on something I noticed while reviewing the banlist - basically a better articulation of one of the more concrete answers to "what makes something banworthy". Either way, nearly everything I said about the impact Scythe would have on tournaments played out in the course of about 24 hours (which I must say is surprising even to me - mostly didn't expect it to be as common in terms of ownership as it was but yeah), so can we please finally give it the richly deserved boot in the pre-AN update?

In addition to this, after trying to counter the main Omega combos and what I've heard from tournament attendees, I've changed my mind about it being balanced. It's not unstoppable especially because it's using RF, but even on the low tracks it works by far best on it is capable of doing okay vs 230 defense, not amazing vs some of it but still. It does fall to Libra anti attack for me, though some say certain tracks help, and while I personally find Pegasis is probably slightly better overall, that comes with the caveat that I'm a lot more used to Pegasis (which is very obvious in terms of how much I self KO with each - a lot more with omega), and Omega still works better against the main defense combo that Pegasis struggles with for me, MF-H Scythe Cancer R145RB (though this still is something Omega doesn't do amazingly against for me, others have different results). Omega is visibly much more powerful in terms of how hard it hits than anything in Limited, being much closer to something like Fang (Counter Mode) than to anything in Limited. It's kinda hard to draw the line on Attack wheels in limited due to the fact attack/defense are really balanced for tournaments rather than testing, but tournament usage bore out the tests quite well and so I think there is adequate grounds to re-ban Omega. More on that in the actual explanations, but basically it's too heavy and powerful for Limited now that it's found its place on low tracks and people have found Clear Wheels etc capable of compensating for the inherent shortfallings of those low tracks (plus the tall track combos that do well against it are generally things that don't have a tonne of use otherwise).

From what I hear, NC's tournament also showed the difference between a powerful wheel like Libra and a banworthy wheel - Libra is very, very good, but nowhere near as powerful in any single type as Omega or as good in as many different applications as Scythe (mostly because Scythe has the whole "best stamina wheel" thing, obviously just referring to good molds of it here).

So here's what I'm proposing, for when all the qualifiers are done (the last being TO's on May 4):

May 5 2014 Update PROPOSAL Wrote:Newly Banned
  • WHEEL: Scythe (Metal Fury)
  • WHEEL: Omega

Scythe: Completely outclasses wheels from the era around which Limited is based in Stamina, where a good Scythe B: D custom is capable of outspinning every Earth/Burn custom out there while also being basically superior to them in every other way (Earth LTSC might have marginally better defense against some opponents). This is generally where the distinction for things deserving a ban lies from what I've seen by reviewing the banlist while writing a more detailed version - Scythe is perhaps the only wheel (Omega may also meet this criteria, but I'm still not sure it's quite good enough against 230 to really outclass every pre-maximum series attack wheel) that meets this criteria that is currently Legal (Duo's very questionably defenses mean it does not meet this condition). I'm able to provide tests for this if needed as I don't think there have been any formal tests, just that it made a mark in NC's Qualifier, though I don't have two B: D's, generally TH170EWD outspins B: D reliably in same wheel matchups (B: D on scythe works better against other things in my experience (especially spin-stealers including F230 stuff) - mainly because Scythe doesn't fall over on it until it actually stops spinning).
In addition, Scythe is also generally stronger defensively than every other wheel, though on Low Tracks it is largely limited to Anti-Attack, so certain wheels in LTDC may work slightly better than Scythe's main defensive combinations (except Scythe is generally at a disadvantageous height here as it's a Mid Track Defense wheel) - though personally I find Scythe superior against everything but Lightning. Scythe Attack/Anti-Attack is about as effective as Libra Anti Attack (already some of the strongest customizations in the format) while much more effective offensively, and finally Scythe's Stamina and Defense abilities (and to a lesser extent its offensive potential, though this really needs RF to be significant) can be combined in various Balance setups such as TH170/230CS (though personally I find my very worn Libra works better, Scythe probably does work better than less worn examples), which apparently did very well in an area that had seen heavy use of Lightning L-Drago Attack and generally aggressive customs in the past, which is extremely surprising. Basically - a good Scythe is good at basically everything, including various combinations that are extremely powerful compared to how easy they are to use, and the wheel is in my opinion also deserving of a ban simply based on its stamina ability alone.
As I understand it, its performance in NC this weekend is a fulfilment of what we agreed to being required for a ban, though honestly I don't think that's even important based on what I've heard of scythe's antics this weekend - it showed up and had decent success in basically every type of combination it works in, Anti-Attack, Defense, Stamina, and Balance, and we even saw the performance differences noted from testing appear too. Even if it isn't quite bending type balance out of shape, I definitely feel it is much more deserving of a ban than Gravity ever was, along similar lines.

Omega: The first time we're going to have to admit we were wrong to unban something, but as we've already discussed, the criteria for being unbanned are deliberately less stringent than those for banning a wheel and I think this is a very good example of Limited serving its purpose of giving us greater insight into overlooked parts through this mechanism - now we just have to make sure we act quickly enough for this to be acceptable in terms of the beypoints system and format confidence etc. The primary reasons for the change, despite Omega LTAC being tested before the unban (at least as I remember it), is an advancement in CW Attack understanding which allows Omega LTAC to perform acceptably against Tall Track Defense and more importantly much more effectively against 145-height opponents - it being the first wheel other than the 'proper' left spin wheels (Lightning and Gravity) that I find performs acceptably against Scythe Defense. This is mostly due to Horuseus (though I also found some other things that worked well that I will post about soon enough, I just need to find time to test), which after having tried it on some other wheels (scythe primarily, though its recoil can cause scraping there and comes at a big cost vs attack, so something a bit rounder but still capable of upward aggression is better there - Capricorne, for example) I must say is capable of pretty astonishing smash for plastic.

Scythe and Omega both moderate each other slightly, as both are capable of causing problems for various popular combos of the other, so I strongly suggest we get rid of both at the same time to prevent unintentional damage to the format.

Also, while I'm here:
Update on Scythe Performance Differences:
Recently there have been reports from various people of their non-AA2 Scythes performing similarly to AA2 Scythes. Until now I don't think any of them owned AA2 Scythes themselves however the interesting thing is that in at least one case, the person had previously recorded results (albeit lacking benchmarks which they noticed on reviewing it, but nonetheless as I recall it they had seen relatively less impressive performance from it at other times outside of testing) of the same Scythe performing poorly. There are various ways that change could occur that I can think of depending on the affected matchups and so on, but either way, there are various examples of non-AA2 Scythes performing as well as AA2 Scythes – this is most common in defense, which isn't surprising as that's the one major type where Scythe's weight distribution isn't a key part of its performance, but apparently also in Stamina. However today, a member has forwarded me tests of three Scythes, where their two non-AA2 Scythes are performing marginally better for Attack and Defense, I'm sure they'll post them themselves and I don't mean to steal their thunder, but I felt it important to mention this in this post seeing as the differences in results and performance played a part in discussions about it in the past. What I take away from it based on data, logic, and what I've heard is this: the AA2 production code is probably the strongest indicator that a given Scythe wheel will provide results along the lines of the more impressive numbers posted, however it is not the only factor in play – random variation between individual wheels also has an effect on performance that provides some overlap. This seems quite understandable to me – wheels cast from a certain mold are going to be on average more similar than those from different molds, but random variation still plays a part, and Scythe's weight distribution makes it rather prone to this (similar things happened with Phantom/Duo matchups which weren't necessarily linked to the weight of the wheels involved, which is also the case with Scythe, it seems).
This weekend, I think we've seen both extremes borne out at tournaments, in CT Scythe B: D lost to Thermal B: D (which is astonishing), though from what I gather the same Scythe had success in a disadvantageous height matchup for it in a defense customization against what is generally considered an effective Low Track Attack wheel (Beat). On the other hand, we saw the same Scythe Stamina combination, alongside plenty of others, perform well in NC. As such, I think that whether or not we are sure of the cause (though I am quite sure it has to do with differences in weight distribution due to small variation between wheels) the fact there are distinct differences in the performance of individual Scythe wheels is pretty much confirmed – and with it the fact that some Scythes are as strong as the more impressive tests showed. As such, I do not think the cause of performance variations are relevant to ban discussion at this point, however based on the prominence of it in past I felt it important to include this along with my renewed ban proposal.
Not to necro this, but what are the plans fothe next list? Im in favor of scythe amd omega going.
I remember Kei recently purchasing a Hasbro Scythe and posting that he would test it further.
He also sounded like he had a bad mold, and I would not weigh one person's tests above the amount of results we had already, no matter who that person is. I'm not even sure, given the results we have, but I've already addressed people basing opinions on poorer molds just because that's the one they have in the past.
There was also the fact he mentioned thinking that was what I considered the main problem combo - I'm more concerned about the fact it is the best at pretty much everything (or where it isn't the best it's competitive for two things at once and answers a shockingly large portion of the format) including very easy to spam stamina/defense stuff and the defensive abilities render a lot of attack wheels (thus a big chunk of the format) redundant. It's an incredibly centralising wheel and as such is anathema to what Limited is about. I really don't understand why the decision is difficult honestly - it's so blatantly overpowered and has now gone and shown that in tournaments - something largely unnecessary given how little can interfere with "best at defense and stamina in testing" translating to competitive dominance. I discussed this in the Scythe CH120RF and public Limited Ban List Discussion threads in more detail (and more, er, "unbridled enthusiasm" shall we say).

Still, the lack of response is disheartening, the agreement we had about scythe being fulfilled and everything IMO...

Also, thanks to Dark for the bump, honestly was hoping to have the next update all sorted and lined up by this point when I made that post. Still hoping this doesn't end up being a "day after the last possible moment we should have had it sorted" thing, not to be rude, but I'm getting real tired of those - a lot of Limited's potential and appeal should was IMO going to lie in making the userbase feel involved in the shaping of the format and the attitude the decisionmaking body by and large has shown thus far is not at all conducive to that, or host confidence in the format.
So where do:we stand right now on a potential banning of Scythe/Omega? Also I would like to open the flor for discussion on SA165. Potentially Unbannable?
I might just be ignorant because I haven't seen one of the supposed "good molds" (how many people have actually recorded results comparable to the ones that th!nk is talking about?), but I don't have any problems with Scythe right now. It's definitely great, but not the best at everything in all situations by any stretch of the imagination. But I'm only talking from my own experience. I do know that Kai-V has bought multiple Scythe's, used it throughout GBT2, and also feels that it isn't ban-worthy.

Omega is debatable. I honestly don't have enough experience with it in Limited myself to say one way or another, but I don't think it's absolutely overpowered, and it helps that it is a pure Attack type. However, based on my previous experience with it in Standard when it was released, it's possible that it might be just a little bit too powerful for Limited. A re-ban is worth considering, but not imminent I don't think.

Mind elaborating on why you think SA165 is potentially unbannable?
From what everyone told me, you can only ban or unban Scythe and Omega together, because apparently one would dominate if the other was not there to keep it tame.

As all three of us in this current conversation can attest though, I used the good mould of Scythe in GRAND BATTLE TOURNAMENT 2 in all my matches except one, and the only time I won was against a Cyber combination that was a bad idea to begin with, no offense to the person I was facing. Libra seemed to be the much better safe option also, and I would be very interested in getting each person's comment about why they did not use Scythe at GRAND BATTLE TOURNAMENT 2.

I really want to test it now in individual battles, against just myself, to completely see how good it is, but I have had no time at all since BeyDays.
This thread has been silent for quite a while now, but I just logged on to check for news and I saw the new banlist update.

I don't know how it's been for you guys, but in NC (and, from what I understand, most other places) Scythe has always absolutely dominated competition, and its only real competitors were Libra and Omega. Those two wheels have now been banned, and I just want to say that, especially at this point, banning Scythe is absolutely critical to maintaining the balance of this game. As long as Scythe exists, Earth and Burn are obsolete, and most competitive Attack Wheels are virtually useless, crippled at best.

I can't really give any of the fine points here or argue the position thoroughly, so I'm gonna leave this to you guys. Just wanted to bring it up.
Scythe was grossly exaggerated by Kaneki's fake tests, so we would really have to re-evaluate how 'dominant' it really is in "most places".
I don't have a scythe, so I can't help with testing, but I will say that I have to agree 100% with @[[)ragon]. Based off my past experiences with Limted, I feel that Scythe will become dominant without Libra and Omega to shut it down.
(Sep. 10, 2015  6:31 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Scythe was grossly exaggerated by Kaneki's fake tests, so we would really have to re-evaluate how 'dominant' it really is in "most places".

I've been looking through the Winning Combinations thread, and since May, half of the Limited tournaments' winning combinations do not include Scythe at all. On the other hand, where Scythe is present, generally everyone is using at least one Scythe combo in their winning combinations, generally in a Stamina setup or a Stamina hybrid.

We'll probably have to wait and see how metagames react to the loss of Libra and Omega, but I'm personally optimistic that, as usual, LTACs are awesome and will be able to handle Scythe.
Scythe is definitely good, but I'm not too worried about it because it isn't the best Stamina Wheel. Duo, at least, is better in my experience. Scythe has the advantage of a slightly offensive upside and wide attack range, but it isn't very heavy, so it's not something I'm worried about.

Of course however, we will keep our eye on any developments as tournaments begin to be played using this new ban list. The ban list updates aren't always entirely about trying to find the objective "best" balance in the metagame, but partially just to keep the game interesting. Omega and Libra were banned because they presented problems to the current metagame; not necessarily because banning them will solve every potential issue. Beyblade is too complicated for that. Limited is something that will always be constantly evolving, and that's what makes it so exciting.

And Cake, try looking at the Public Tournament Data Archive Limited sheet instead of the Winning Combinations thread. It's much easier to search the results and spot trends!
Can we reach a consensus as to the Dark Knight ban and Gravity unban? I think I've made all the arguments I can in the public discussion, aside from doing a bunch of additional tests (which seems unnecessary since we have a huge pool of tournament results and existing tests on DK in general). A game without Dark Knight means that Bladers will be encouraged to use a greater variety of the many Attack wheels viable in Limited, as opposed to spamming the slightly safer, stronger Dark Knight.
I have somewhere to be soon, so I'll be brief.

First, I think the nature of Limited lends itself well to experimentation. While there are decisions that may benefit from longer deliberation, I think there could be an argument in the case of Limited for a more organic approach: notice a trend; deal with it; analyze the repercussion; deal with them consequently (proceed forward or take a step back).

That being said, since you're also considering reintroducing a part--a versatile part--it would be interesting to see tests pitting same and opposite-spin Gravity against Dark Knight, to see if that renders Dark Knight a much less safer option. I've read the last three pages of the discussion thread, and most discussion involving the two pertain to how they individually compare to other parts; I've noticed only one instance where they are compared to how they play against each other.

That would be my main concern, really. If I recall correctly, Giga Flat isn't that amazing without the weight of Synchrom grounding it.
I'm in agreement with you Cake about Dark Knight; just haven't had a chance to sit down and think through everything and discuss with the Committee yet to come to a final decision. If anything, we might go ahead with a ban on Dark Knight and then consider the Gravity situation later. I fear that we would be inviting less variety once again if we were to ban Dark Knight and unban Gravity; thereby not accomplishing very much. Either way, I definitely don't think both can exist at the same time in Limited as it stands; there would be little incentive to use anything other than Dark Knight or Gravity.

And I absolutely agree with you Nocto regarding the nature of Limited Format; it does indeed lend itself well to experimentation, which is why the ban list has changed several times since it was been introduced. For me, it's the most exciting format we have because of how dynamic it is despite being played using a completed series like MFB.
Waiting on the Gravity decision seems wise; it seems I hadn't thought through unbanning it enough, and I'm definitely more hesitant to unban it, considering that it does do a lot of the same things that Dark Knight is being banned for. I was approaching them more as separate problems and hadn't made that connection for some reason Tongue_out

I've tried to say what Nocto said on a few occasions, but he's said it better than I ever did, haha. Being able to adjust the game balance in Limited makes it much more open to a variety of customizations and playstyles, which is something I love about the format.
Can we get that ban list in the OP updated, while it's still fresh in everyone's mind? @[Kei]

Also, while I know it's a bit too early to be discussing the next update, I do have a small list of things we should probably keep an eye on: Scythe, Gravity (lol), and possibly 230/TH170 and RS.
  • Scythe is a pretty versatile and powerful Wheel, being good at Defense, Stamina, Stalling, and Anti-Attack occasionally. While it doesn't choke out the rest of the Wheels in the same categories - as in stuff like Earth, Burn, Duo, Jade, and Bakushin still sees use - it's always been at least in the background of the banlist discussion.
  • While I definitely believe that the initial broken-ness of Gravity was highly exaggerated, if it proves to be too centralizing we can always re-ban it. I have confidence that Attack Types, Scythe Stallers, and LTSC (among a few other things) will keep it in check this time round.
  • I think it was Cake who originally said this when he thought out the effects of a DK ban/Gravity unban, but 230 (and by extent, TH170) seems like it's going to see a lot more use. I know these super-tall combos add a lot of diversity to the game, but Flame 230 CS/MB/EDS is capable of outspinning pretty much anything Right Spin (in my experience Meteo can't beat it too consistently either), and without DK's Upper Attack threatening it I could easily see it being spammable. Gravity F230GCF does a pretty good job taking out CS and EDS but MB is a little iffy. Bandid _145RSF mauls all three though, so if we see a return to these types of Attacker combos, 230 might not be as centralizing as it is even now.
  • RS is more of a side-note than something that I think actually threatens the balance of the format, but despite its relatively low usage rates it seems to have lowered the diversity of Right-Spin Attack pretty drastically. It's not really hurting the game per say, but removing it might do some good.

    Admittedly, this was mainly a post to test out my new colors, so I just needed to throw in some info to make it worthwhile lol