Okay so I'm told by reliable sources that Scythe partied hard in NC today - 230CS and B : D in particular - I'm sure winning combos will be posted soon enough but there has already ben some discussion of it so I'm going to go ahead and post this. Apparently someone without a tonne of experience using Scythe B : D/Scythe TH170 CS using the ol' AA2 Scythe did awesome in their block too. Now keep in mind this is an area where the two main options for KOing 145-height scythe defense (omega, lightning) were in big use too (and both of them, less so omega but more on that in a moment, struggle with Scythe Low Track (Anti) Attack - which given the right CW (capricorne seems best so far) and a good Scythe with the right CW can handle tall track balance okay from what I've seen) and while I'm not sure whether or not that particular type of Scythe combination showed up there, the fact that the area's previously heavy usage of 145-height Lightning Attack did little to discourage the use of Scythe 230CS in particular is something I would say is quite significant. Scythe Defense also scored a win in CT against a low track attack custom (the same scythe that lost to Thermal in a B: D vs B: D Matchup, but more on that in a bit). Apparently nearly the full range of Scythe combos saw successful usage, even with an extremely powerful attack wheel in Omega also being quite prominent. So far the main counterargument I've heard is that Scythe B: D or 230CS was knocked out by attack and that Scythe was beaten with Scythe - not exactly what I would consider compelling evidence. In addition to this, as I don't think I've posted it anywhere prominently aside from venting at one point, I also have another explanation for why Metal Fury Scythe should not be legal based on something I noticed while reviewing the banlist - basically a better articulation of one of the more concrete answers to "what makes something banworthy". Either way, nearly everything I said about the impact Scythe would have on tournaments played out in the course of about 24 hours (which I must say is surprising even to me - mostly didn't expect it to be as common in terms of ownership as it was but yeah), so can we please finally give it the richly deserved boot in the pre-AN update?
In addition to this, after trying to counter the main Omega combos and what I've heard from tournament attendees, I've changed my mind about it being balanced. It's not unstoppable especially because it's using RF, but even on the low tracks it works by far best on it is capable of doing okay vs 230 defense, not amazing vs some of it but still. It does fall to Libra anti attack for me, though some say certain tracks help, and while I personally find Pegasis is probably slightly better overall, that comes with the caveat that I'm a lot more used to Pegasis (which is very obvious in terms of how much I self KO with each - a lot more with omega), and Omega still works better against the main defense combo that Pegasis struggles with for me, MF-H Scythe Cancer R145RB (though this still is something Omega doesn't do amazingly against for me, others have different results). Omega is visibly much more powerful in terms of how hard it hits than anything in Limited, being much closer to something like Fang (Counter Mode) than to anything in Limited. It's kinda hard to draw the line on Attack wheels in limited due to the fact attack/defense are really balanced for tournaments rather than testing, but tournament usage bore out the tests quite well and so I think there is adequate grounds to re-ban Omega. More on that in the actual explanations, but basically it's too heavy and powerful for Limited now that it's found its place on low tracks and people have found Clear Wheels etc capable of compensating for the inherent shortfallings of those low tracks (plus the tall track combos that do well against it are generally things that don't have a tonne of use otherwise).
From what I hear, NC's tournament also showed the difference between a powerful wheel like Libra and a banworthy wheel - Libra is very, very good, but nowhere near as powerful in any single type as Omega or as good in as many different applications as Scythe (mostly because Scythe has the whole "best stamina wheel" thing, obviously just referring to good molds of it here).
So here's what I'm proposing, for when all the qualifiers are done (the last being TO's on May 4):
May 5 2014 Update PROPOSAL Wrote:Newly Banned- WHEEL: Scythe (Metal Fury)
- WHEEL: Omega
Reasons:
Scythe: Completely outclasses wheels from the era around which Limited is based in Stamina, where a good Scythe B: D custom is capable of outspinning every Earth/Burn custom out there while also being basically superior to them in every other way (Earth LTSC might have marginally better defense against some opponents). This is generally where the distinction for things deserving a ban lies from what I've seen by reviewing the banlist while writing a more detailed version - Scythe is perhaps the only wheel (Omega may also meet this criteria, but I'm still not sure it's quite good enough against 230 to really outclass every pre-maximum series attack wheel) that meets this criteria that is currently Legal (Duo's very questionably defenses mean it does not meet this condition). I'm able to provide tests for this if needed as I don't think there have been any formal tests, just that it made a mark in NC's Qualifier, though I don't have two B: D's, generally TH170EWD outspins B: D reliably in same wheel matchups (B: D on scythe works better against other things in my experience (especially spin-stealers including F230 stuff) - mainly because Scythe doesn't fall over on it until it actually stops spinning).
In addition, Scythe is also generally stronger defensively than every other wheel, though on Low Tracks it is largely limited to Anti-Attack, so certain wheels in LTDC may work slightly better than Scythe's main defensive combinations (except Scythe is generally at a disadvantageous height here as it's a Mid Track Defense wheel) - though personally I find Scythe superior against everything but Lightning. Scythe Attack/Anti-Attack is about as effective as Libra Anti Attack (already some of the strongest customizations in the format) while much more effective offensively, and finally Scythe's Stamina and Defense abilities (and to a lesser extent its offensive potential, though this really needs RF to be significant) can be combined in various Balance setups such as TH170/230CS (though personally I find my very worn Libra works better, Scythe probably does work better than less worn examples), which apparently did very well in an area that had seen heavy use of Lightning L-Drago Attack and generally aggressive customs in the past, which is extremely surprising. Basically - a good Scythe is good at basically everything, including various combinations that are extremely powerful compared to how easy they are to use, and the wheel is in my opinion also deserving of a ban simply based on its stamina ability alone.
As I understand it, its performance in NC this weekend is a fulfilment of what we agreed to being required for a ban, though honestly I don't think that's even important based on what I've heard of scythe's antics this weekend - it showed up and had decent success in basically every type of combination it works in, Anti-Attack, Defense, Stamina, and Balance, and we even saw the performance differences noted from testing appear too. Even if it isn't quite bending type balance out of shape, I definitely feel it is much more deserving of a ban than Gravity ever was, along similar lines.
Omega: The first time we're going to have to admit we were wrong to unban something, but as we've already discussed, the criteria for being unbanned are deliberately less stringent than those for banning a wheel and I think this is a very good example of Limited serving its purpose of giving us greater insight into overlooked parts through this mechanism - now we just have to make sure we act quickly enough for this to be acceptable in terms of the beypoints system and format confidence etc. The primary reasons for the change, despite Omega LTAC being tested before the unban (at least as I remember it), is an advancement in CW Attack understanding which allows Omega LTAC to perform acceptably against Tall Track Defense and more importantly much more effectively against 145-height opponents - it being the first wheel other than the 'proper' left spin wheels (Lightning and Gravity) that I find performs acceptably against Scythe Defense. This is mostly due to Horuseus (though I also found some other things that worked well that I will post about soon enough, I just need to find time to test), which after having tried it on some other wheels (scythe primarily, though its recoil can cause scraping there and comes at a big cost vs attack, so something a bit rounder but still capable of upward aggression is better there - Capricorne, for example) I must say is capable of pretty astonishing smash for plastic.
Scythe and Omega both moderate each other slightly, as both are capable of causing problems for various popular combos of the other, so I strongly suggest we get rid of both at the same time to prevent unintentional damage to the format.
Also, while I'm here:
Update on Scythe Performance Differences:
Recently there have been reports from various people of their non-AA2 Scythes performing similarly to AA2 Scythes. Until now I don't think any of them owned AA2 Scythes themselves however the interesting thing is that in at least one case, the person had previously recorded results (albeit lacking benchmarks which they noticed on reviewing it, but nonetheless as I recall it they had seen relatively less impressive performance from it at other times outside of testing) of the same Scythe performing poorly. There are various ways that change could occur that I can think of depending on the affected matchups and so on, but either way, there are various examples of non-AA2 Scythes performing as well as AA2 Scythes – this is most common in defense, which isn't surprising as that's the one major type where Scythe's weight distribution isn't a key part of its performance, but apparently also in Stamina. However today, a member has forwarded me tests of three Scythes, where their two non-AA2 Scythes are performing marginally better for Attack and Defense, I'm sure they'll post them themselves and I don't mean to steal their thunder, but I felt it important to mention this in this post seeing as the differences in results and performance played a part in discussions about it in the past. What I take away from it based on data, logic, and what I've heard is this: the AA2 production code is probably the strongest indicator that a given Scythe wheel will provide results along the lines of the more impressive numbers posted, however it is not the only factor in play – random variation between individual wheels also has an effect on performance that provides some overlap. This seems quite understandable to me – wheels cast from a certain mold are going to be on average more similar than those from different molds, but random variation still plays a part, and Scythe's weight distribution makes it rather prone to this (similar things happened with Phantom/Duo matchups which weren't necessarily linked to the weight of the wheels involved, which is also the case with Scythe, it seems).
This weekend, I think we've seen both extremes borne out at tournaments, in CT Scythe B: D lost to Thermal B: D (which is astonishing), though from what I gather the same Scythe had success in a disadvantageous height matchup for it in a defense customization against what is generally considered an effective Low Track Attack wheel (Beat). On the other hand, we saw the same Scythe Stamina combination, alongside plenty of others, perform well in NC. As such, I think that whether or not we are sure of the cause (though I am quite sure it has to do with differences in weight distribution due to small variation between wheels) the fact there are distinct differences in the performance of individual Scythe wheels is pretty much confirmed – and with it the fact that some Scythes are as strong as the more impressive tests showed. As such, I do not think the cause of performance variations are relevant to ban discussion at this point, however based on the prominence of it in past I felt it important to include this along with my renewed ban proposal.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
![[Image: AqKPC.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/AqKPC.jpg)
![[Image: beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/VLksgt2k/beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg)
![[Image: 68vfxj.jpg]](https://oi57.tinypic.com/68vfxj.jpg)
