I personally think that Gravity should be unbanned, I was against it's ban to begin with, I feel that the part is outclassed by better attack wheels and being able to spin either direction is not as good as it sounds.
MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)
I would be in favour of unbanning Gravity.
While I was not around during the birth of Limited, seeing what others have said and what I know roaming from roaming the forums, it seemed to have been perceived as too versatile in the beginning. That said, it still is a versatile wheel, but not as powerful as once believed.
The only thing I would worry about is Gravity RS and RF, but even then I don't think they would be over powered. Wish I could see how it would perform, but my Perseus broke
While I was not around during the birth of Limited, seeing what others have said and what I know roaming from roaming the forums, it seemed to have been perceived as too versatile in the beginning. That said, it still is a versatile wheel, but not as powerful as once believed.
The only thing I would worry about is Gravity RS and RF, but even then I don't think they would be over powered. Wish I could see how it would perform, but my Perseus broke
I did some research on old test of gravity and tested it myself against some of combos from every type and sub-category [like tornado staller. Rebounder etc] and I can say it's smash it defenatly not as strong as something like Ronin, Pegasis [Pegasis is dangerous lol], or even Lighting sometime. but it's better then Screw for sure.
So in the end I have to unfortunately say no to it's unban as it will mostly dominate in areas where people don't have good parts like sythe, dark kinght or other part which are unavailable to Hasbro people [esspcially places like India where very few people have good parts as most can't order from places like ebay.com and as many have gravity so combos like Gravity D125GCF/B
will be spammed alot]
well sorry if my post makes no sense or is pointless but I was just giving my option.
I did some test with it with parts which are mostly used in my area but also with parts liek Ronn, samurai wyvang GB145RB, etc. i can show them if anyone is interested
So in the end I have to unfortunately say no to it's unban as it will mostly dominate in areas where people don't have good parts like sythe, dark kinght or other part which are unavailable to Hasbro people [esspcially places like India where very few people have good parts as most can't order from places like ebay.com and as many have gravity so combos like Gravity D125GCF/B
will be spammed alot]well sorry if my post makes no sense or is pointless but I was just giving my option.
I did some test with it with parts which are mostly used in my area but also with parts liek Ronn, samurai wyvang GB145RB, etc. i can show them if anyone is interested
![[Image: 2aj5k50.jpg]](https://i68.tinypic.com/2aj5k50.jpg)
![[Image: 1fftwi.jpg]](https://i66.tinypic.com/1fftwi.jpg)
![[Image: ig94b9.jpg]](https://i63.tinypic.com/ig94b9.jpg)
Gravity shouldn't be unbanned because there is only one reverse rotating bey that may exist in this world.
That's really not a reason. If there was a Beyblade that defied reality and rotated three ways, if it wasn't overpowered, it shouldn't be banned.
And there are definitely many more beyblades that are left spin, so it is not the only one.
And there are definitely many more beyblades that are left spin, so it is not the only one.
(Jun. 25, 2016 5:16 PM)agumonx7 Wrote: Gravity shouldn't be unbanned because there is only one reverse rotating bey that may exist in this world.
Currently, there are quite a few reverse - rotation Beys that are Limited legal.
- Lightning L-Drago
- All Meteo L-Drago molds
- Dark Knight + any Chrome Wheel
- Dragooon + any Crystal Wheel
- Metal Fury L-Drago Destroy
- Metal Fury L-Drago Guardian
- Metal System L-Drago
- Metal Fury Variares
i'm pretty sure he was just making a joke and quoting ryuga in metal masters when he was battling julian
So I do not actually have much authority, or information about this topic, mainly because I have been out of the loop for so long, but I would like to share my thoughts I guess?
I remember when gravity first came out in MFB (when the meta was actually quite similar to limited, minus 230 tracks, and some other small key parts), and it was pretty good and definitely became top tier (as well as keeping a good lifespan compared to other wheels of similar use/came out around the same time as it).
you got to keep in mind that this was a time when MF Earth GB145WB was still in use for defense (I believe RS also just came out, but wasn't heavily used at the time due to the mostly stamina based meta. so not to many people had it or used it).
and it really wasn't that much of a game changer back then. in fact the main use for buying it was mainly because it was just a good bundle. AD145 and WD where the top stamina parts at the time, a beylauncher that could launch both ways was great, and gravity was just a solid part.
It didn't really drastically change how the game was played, unlike Hell, Basalt, and BD145 (as well as 230 to a lesser degree).
Of course, Limited does have some differences to the how it was when gravity first came out that needs to be kept in mind, but in all honesty I am surprised gravity is banned.
(btw, I used, and liked gravity a lot.)
Anyways, that is just my two cents. really just based on experience. I would do testings and all that if it wasn't for my collection being stolen a couple years back :\
EDIT: so tired, so I forgot to proof read before posting.. realize that I have some redundancies that I need to clean up
I remember when gravity first came out in MFB (when the meta was actually quite similar to limited, minus 230 tracks, and some other small key parts), and it was pretty good and definitely became top tier (as well as keeping a good lifespan compared to other wheels of similar use/came out around the same time as it).
you got to keep in mind that this was a time when MF Earth GB145WB was still in use for defense (I believe RS also just came out, but wasn't heavily used at the time due to the mostly stamina based meta. so not to many people had it or used it).
and it really wasn't that much of a game changer back then. in fact the main use for buying it was mainly because it was just a good bundle. AD145 and WD where the top stamina parts at the time, a beylauncher that could launch both ways was great, and gravity was just a solid part.
It didn't really drastically change how the game was played, unlike Hell, Basalt, and BD145 (as well as 230 to a lesser degree).
Of course, Limited does have some differences to the how it was when gravity first came out that needs to be kept in mind, but in all honesty I am surprised gravity is banned.
(btw, I used, and liked gravity a lot.)
Anyways, that is just my two cents. really just based on experience. I would do testings and all that if it wasn't for my collection being stolen a couple years back :\
EDIT: so tired, so I forgot to proof read before posting.. realize that I have some redundancies that I need to clean up
(Jul. 02, 2016 1:28 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: Flame Up The Summer Spirit - MFB Limited
Saturday, June 25th, 2016 | Toronto, Ontario
1st Kei
MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang 85CS
This combo is so overpowered. I know people have been talking about unbanning Gravity, but if anything, we should be talking about banning Dark Knight for Limited.
I went 10-2 during this event and 7-1 with MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang 85CS (my only loss was an unlucky one to LMAO's MF Earth Cancer B:D where he got a ton of wall saves and I lost 3-2). And even though it's on 85, it amazingly can still reach and KO Flame 230CS.
Wombat had mentioned recently in the Winning Combinations thread that low track Bakushin defense was the best way to beat low track Dark Knight attack, but I was able to handle 1234beyblade's low track Bakushin RSF quite well both by KO and OS.
Does anyone have any convincing arguments for not banning Dark Knight? It's been a hugely dominant presence in the metagame at least since the Limited Ban List v1.4 was announced and has in my opinion contributed to the lowered amount of variety seen among Attack types. It's very powerful, versatile (due to its ability to be combined with any Chrome Wheel), and the fact that it is left-spin in a largely right-spin metagame makes it even more of a threat than any of the right-spin Crystal Wheels.
If we were to ban it, I can see Lightning and many other right-spin Attack Wheels becoming viable again. Right now there's very little incentive to use anything other than Dark Knight + Girago/Wyvang/etc. I'd also feel better about using Defense because there is less chance of an Attack type like Dark Knight Girago or Wyvang being able to actually OS you.
![[Image: beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/VLksgt2k/beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg)
WORST OF ALL... he beat my ROCK GEMIOS CH120RSF with that trash, please ban dark knight 
also it was Bakushin RS not RSF.
also it was Bakushin RS not RSF.
Jade LTDC counters Dark Knight LTAC very effectively. I haven't tried Dark Knight on CS yet, but as soon as I get home from vacation I will definitely test it out.
(Jul. 02, 2016 11:49 PM)Cake Wrote: Jade LTDC counters Dark Knight LTAC very effectively. I haven't tried Dark Knight on CS yet, but as soon as I get home from vacation I will definitely test it out.
Same situation as Obelisk Oin tho, it beats Odin and that's it, pretty sure that's the same situation with Jade only being able to beat Dark Knight.
(Jul. 02, 2016 10:58 PM)Kei Wrote:(Jul. 02, 2016 1:28 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: Flame Up The Summer Spirit - MFB Limited
Saturday, June 25th, 2016 | Toronto, Ontario
1st Kei
MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang 85CS
This combo is so overpowered. I know people have been talking about unbanning Gravity, but if anything, we should be talking about banning Dark Knight for Limited.
I went 10-2 during this event and 7-1 with MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang 85CS (my only loss was an unlucky one to LMAO's MF Earth Cancer B:D where he got a ton of wall saves and I lost 3-2). And even though it's on 85, it amazingly can still reach and KO Flame 230CS.
Wombat had mentioned recently in the Winning Combinations thread that low track Bakushin defense was the best way to beat low track Dark Knight attack, but I was able to handle 1234beyblade's low track Bakushin RSF quite well both by KO and OS.
Does anyone have any convincing arguments for not banning Dark Knight? It's been a hugely dominant presence in the metagame at least since the Limited Ban List v1.4 was announced and has in my opinion contributed to the lowered amount of variety seen among Attack types. It's very powerful, versatile (due to its ability to be combined with any Chrome Wheel), and the fact that it is left-spin in a largely right-spin metagame makes it even more of a threat than any of the right-spin Crystal Wheels.
If we were to ban it, I can see Lightning and many other right-spin Attack Wheels becoming viable again. Right now there's very little incentive to use anything other than Dark Knight + Girago/Wyvang/etc. I'd also feel better about using Defense because there is less chance of an Attack type like Dark Knight Girago or Wyvang being able to actually OS you.
After seeing this post I tried this combo vs MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF, and I got completely opposite results from you, even using a variety of different CS wear conditions. I didn't mark them down in an actual testing format, but my results were pretty one-sided in Bakushin's favor and I did probably around 35ish rounds total. Keep in mind I have the passive (3mm) Wyvang which has been worn down over 3 1/2 years, so if you had a fresh aggressive (4mm) one I bet it would perform a lot better than mine did. I also weak launched Bakushin in all of these, and it was damn near immovable.
Using my super worn down CS (I wore down the rubber so the plastic was exposed long ago, and have used it so much the plastic has worn down and made it semi-aggressive again), I didn't get any KOs whatsoever, and Bakushin was able to consistently outspin it by a good 5-6 rotations.
Using my CS which is basically a Rubber HF, I still didn't get any KOs (Bakushin wall saved once), and got one outspin. This CS was able to tie Bakushin a few times too, probably due to the greater surface area compared to my other CSs.
Using my purple CS which is worn, but not as much as the first one (still pretty aggressive if you launch it hard enough) I still didn't get any KOs or OSes. Bakushin actually recoil KOed Wyvang a few times, and there was one round where there was a recoil KO/Wall Save (I actually have this on video if someone wants me to post it, but the lighting in my room sucks).
EDIT: Here are pictures of the CSes in question.
[Image: NFvhyMF.jpg] [Image: 9cgGBGw.jpg]
I think that you were able to beat 1234beyblade's Bakushin LTDC yesterday was because knowing him, he probably didn't weak launch during your battle (weak launching helps exponentially against the Wyvang variant, against Girago it's safer to launch at normal/high power) and he also just said he was using RS and not RSF. RS has long been known to suck against opposite-spin Attack due its low surface area and awful balance, so I can easily see DK Wyvang outspinning it on CS if it doesn't KO it/smash it into the ground before then. Maybe I should have been a bit more specific in the post where I mentioned Bakushin, haha. There's a reason why RS was so unpopular for Defense compared to CS upon its release (besides bad memories of Defense Mode Seaborg/Advance Guardian RCs being carp): Left Spin Attack was able to beat it consistently through KO and OS, and Right Spin Attack could OS it by Tornado Stalling, neither of which are problems CS usually faces.
I also tested a few LTAC vs MSF-H DK Wyvang 85CS and for the most part, they won pretty handily. MF-H LLD 90RF was able to KO it fairly consistently (which probably isn't saying much, seeing as how much of a coin toss Attack vs Attack generally is), and being Left spin, also outspun it since DK Wyvang has pretty awful balance (didn't test vs. the Girago variant, so that might be able to OS, but I imagine a Girago/CS combo loses out on a lot of KOing power so I don't know how useful it would be in context). MF-H Quetzalcoatl 85RF also matches up against Dark Knight LTAC incredibly well; it is able to use its slopes to exploit the raised nature of Zero-G Wheels and scoop them out pretty consistently (especially if you use the Super Secret Sauce Launch Technique™). Admittedly it fares worse against Wyvang than it does against Girago though.
Being an Attack type itself, Dark Knight LTAC takes some skill to use, which is another reason why I would be hesitant to ban it. Using CS/RSF/RB/RS makes it easier to control/require "less skill", but you trade off mobility and Attack power and are generally forced to use the recoil-laden Wyvang, who also has poor Stamina, to overcompensate (making you easy prey for opposing Attack types and Tornado Stallers).
Something else I would also like to point out is that while that combo might do well in Toronto Flame HTSC/Earth LTSC meta, it might not always succeed elsewhere. And while success in one region vs. another isn't grounds for whether a part gets banned or not, we need to recognize that Toronto's meta does not represent the meta of every active region.
(Jul. 03, 2016 12:00 AM)1234beyblade Wrote:(Jul. 02, 2016 11:49 PM)Cake Wrote: Jade LTDC counters Dark Knight LTAC very effectively. I haven't tried Dark Knight on CS yet, but as soon as I get home from vacation I will definitely test it out.
Same situation as Obelisk Oin tho, it beats Odin and that's it, pretty sure that's the same situation with Jade only being able to beat Dark Knight.
Jade and Bakushin LTDC's uses are not limited to only countering Dark Knight LTAC. From my experience Bakushin beats nearly every other Attack type in Limited (Pegasis and sometimes Cosmic give it trouble), and while I haven't tested Jade as extensively as Cake has I'm pretty sure it gets similar results vs non-Dark Knight Attack types. In addition, I've gotten Bakushin LTDC to KO B:D height Stamina even in opposite spin with a weak launch. Tall combos and Stallers beat them both (with enough prediction skill and aggressive enough launch, you can beat Stallers with it). These combos are effective against way more than 1 Wheel, so they are not comparable to Obelisk Odin at all (and for what it's worth, I can't get O2 to burst Odin any more often than V2, but that's irrelevant).
Even if Jade is only useful as a LTDC wheel, that doesn't keep it from being viable. Pegasis is top-tier for Attack and only Attack; you would never use it as a Defense or Stamina Wheel. Flame is only useful in TH170/230 CS/MB/EDS combos, but that doesn't stop it from being one of the most widely used Wheels in Limited as of last Halloween, despite being easily beaten by DK LTAC (which is also evidence that it is nowhere near as centralizing as it seems).
While my point of view might disagree with yours, I still think I make a good, convincing argument on why Dark Knight should remain legal. *horrible memories of Libra ban intensify* It's good, but I don't think it is overcentralizing or overpowered, and I think a ban would be an overreaction.
(Jul. 03, 2016 12:00 AM)1234beyblade Wrote:(Jul. 02, 2016 11:49 PM)Cake Wrote: Jade LTDC counters Dark Knight LTAC very effectively. I haven't tried Dark Knight on CS yet, but as soon as I get home from vacation I will definitely test it out.
Same situation as Obelisk Oin tho, it beats Odin and that's it, pretty sure that's the same situation with Jade only being able to beat Dark Knight.
Jade LTDC stops Pegasus and Lighting in their tracks, too. It's definitely not exclusive to Dark Knight.
I wish I could say the same about Bakushin, but by comparison Jade blows it out of the water, from my experience. Bakushin is usually effective, but Jade has always seemed way stronger and much more forgiving.
I didn't mean it like that. Besides the fact that Lighting and Pegasis are rare uses, Jade cannot beat things like Flame 230, low track Earth and other main stream combos unless you put it on a higher track but then it defeats the purpose of beating Dark Knight because if it becomes higher it just gets destroyed. To add on, even low track Jade can probably lose to DKG by OS if DKG is not launched too hard. In our battle it was literally down to chance when I used Dark Knight RS Attack, you won 3-2, seemed pretty luck based to me and it didn't seem like Jade was a very reliable counter.
Jade is not reliable enough for it to be the reason DK doesn't get banned. If anything Scythe MF would be a better counter because it has chances against other things too.
Also wombat i COULDN'T weak launch because I would get OSed, I had to rely on the knock outs by launching really hard. (I should probably mention it was Bakushin CH120RS, I wanted to optimize the combo as much as possible so I could have a chance against anything Kei would pull, I didn't think he would pull DKW on me twice in one tourney).
I never mentioned Jade can't be a specific type of wheel like pegasis for attack only. I just said it counter one beyblade (like obelisk odin, it only beats Odin and it struggles against everything else), though cake claims that it beats other attack types (which i highly agree with because I tested it too), and obviously it has that slight chance of beating stamina so ye it's a good anti attacker.
I also want to mention that I do weak launch, I did so against Lord Wolfblade against the same combo Wyvang CS with Earth EWD and I won 3-1, though it was because wolf couldn't get a proper launch with Wyvang.
Jade is not reliable enough for it to be the reason DK doesn't get banned. If anything Scythe MF would be a better counter because it has chances against other things too.
Also wombat i COULDN'T weak launch because I would get OSed, I had to rely on the knock outs by launching really hard. (I should probably mention it was Bakushin CH120RS, I wanted to optimize the combo as much as possible so I could have a chance against anything Kei would pull, I didn't think he would pull DKW on me twice in one tourney).
I never mentioned Jade can't be a specific type of wheel like pegasis for attack only. I just said it counter one beyblade (like obelisk odin, it only beats Odin and it struggles against everything else), though cake claims that it beats other attack types (which i highly agree with because I tested it too), and obviously it has that slight chance of beating stamina so ye it's a good anti attacker.
I also want to mention that I do weak launch, I did so against Lord Wolfblade against the same combo Wyvang CS with Earth EWD and I won 3-1, though it was because wolf couldn't get a proper launch with Wyvang.
People can you say phantom orion's track banned???
![[Image: 8EtqJ6i.png]](https://imgur.com/8EtqJ6i.png)
(Jul. 03, 2016 7:28 AM)Xstarhero Wrote: People can you say phantom orion's track banned???
well you're asking or telling lol :p
If you're asking then it isn't banned
if you are trying to say to ban it then i don't think it will happen because it's not dominating or unbeatable, i mean it's good but we (they) are looking to ban parts or combos those are dominating/defeating every other part and is too powerful for this -40 grams metagame [which Gravity and Dark Knigh are doing].
Well I agree that Dark Knight does extremely well againt stamina, defence and some balance but for me it never actually worked [atleast against any kind of attack type or agressive defence] so i can't really say anything about it
i dont want it to get banned its my faviorite
My knee-jerk reaction to this is to immediately launch into a debate about how I think Jade is great and Dark Knight isn't game breaking, but after taking some time to think it over, I don't think it really matters whether Dark Knight is broken or if it does have viable counters.
Limited without Dark Knight is simply a better game; even though there is something of a stable type triangle with Dark Knight, that triangle and the meta at large is largely shaped by the threat that Dark Knight poses. It destroys even the most defensive mid-height opponents, threatens super-tall Stamina, and has the potential to spin-steal off of its main weakness, LTDC (which isn't usually enough to earn a win, but every bit helps).
With Dark Knight banned, as Kei said, it opens up the meta to a far wider assortment of Attack types, and reduces the threat to mid-height combos. I don't think there is a different combo that will suddenly take over in Dark Knight's absence; although Jade and Bakushin are highly effective Defense types, they don't have the Stamina or Attack to be threatening the way Libra was. If anything, Flame 230 gets my vote for next "irritating, meta-changing, overused" combo, but it's easily KOed with mid-height Upper Attack combos (which are at best a risky niche choice with Dark Knight around). No other Attack part has the kind of reach that Dark Knight has, so choosing the right Track should become more important, instead of just going low DK and KOing any height. Attackers on mid-height Tracks should lose very consistently to LTDC, and Attackers on lower Tracks won't be able to reach 230 with the kind of power Dark Knight offers.
TL;DR we kill the Batman to give everyone else a chance
Limited without Dark Knight is simply a better game; even though there is something of a stable type triangle with Dark Knight, that triangle and the meta at large is largely shaped by the threat that Dark Knight poses. It destroys even the most defensive mid-height opponents, threatens super-tall Stamina, and has the potential to spin-steal off of its main weakness, LTDC (which isn't usually enough to earn a win, but every bit helps).
With Dark Knight banned, as Kei said, it opens up the meta to a far wider assortment of Attack types, and reduces the threat to mid-height combos. I don't think there is a different combo that will suddenly take over in Dark Knight's absence; although Jade and Bakushin are highly effective Defense types, they don't have the Stamina or Attack to be threatening the way Libra was. If anything, Flame 230 gets my vote for next "irritating, meta-changing, overused" combo, but it's easily KOed with mid-height Upper Attack combos (which are at best a risky niche choice with Dark Knight around). No other Attack part has the kind of reach that Dark Knight has, so choosing the right Track should become more important, instead of just going low DK and KOing any height. Attackers on mid-height Tracks should lose very consistently to LTDC, and Attackers on lower Tracks won't be able to reach 230 with the kind of power Dark Knight offers.
TL;DR we kill the Batman to give everyone else a chance
Personally, I've never found Dark Knight on an 85 to a 105 height capable of knocking out 230 combos consistently. I would always have to change to CH120 or D125 to do so. In any case, I'm on board with the ban. It'll definitely give other attack wheels the chances they didn't get. I'm ready for some Vulcan RSF. :p
(Jul. 03, 2016 5:34 PM)Mitsu Wrote: Personally, I've never found Dark Knight on an 85 to a 105 height capable of knocking out 230 combos consistently. I would always have to change to CH120 or D125 to do so. In any case, I'm on board with the ban. It'll definitely give other attack wheels the chances they didn't get. I'm ready for some Vulcan RSF. :p
I haven't had a lot of success with low tracks against 230, but I know it's possible and that others have been able to do it.
also yessss @ Vulcan
(Jul. 03, 2016 3:37 AM)Wombat Wrote: After seeing this post I tried this combo vs MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF, and I got completely opposite results from you, even using a variety of different CS wear conditions. I didn't mark them down in an actual testing format, but my results were pretty one-sided in Bakushin's favor and I did probably around 35ish rounds total. Keep in mind I have the passive (3mm) Wyvang which has been worn down over 3 1/2 years, so if you had a fresh aggressive (4mm) one I bet it would perform a lot better than mine did. I also weak launched Bakushin in all of these, and it was damn near immovable.
Using my super worn down CS (I wore down the rubber so the plastic was exposed long ago, and have used it so much the plastic has worn down and made it semi-aggressive again), I didn't get any KOs whatsoever, and Bakushin was able to consistently outspin it by a good 5-6 rotations.
Using my CS which is basically a Rubber HF, I still didn't get any KOs (Bakushin wall saved once), and got one outspin. This CS was able to tie Bakushin a few times too, probably due to the greater surface area compared to my other CSs.
Using my purple CS which is worn, but not as much as the first one (still pretty aggressive if you launch it hard enough) I still didn't get any KOs or OSes. Bakushin actually recoil KOed Wyvang a few times, and there was one round where there was a recoil KO/Wall Save (I actually have this on video if someone wants me to post it, but the lighting in my room sucks).
EDIT: Here are pictures of the CSes in question.
[Image: NFvhyMF.jpg] [Image: 9cgGBGw.jpg]
I think that you were able to beat 1234beyblade's Bakushin LTDC yesterday was because knowing him, he probably didn't weak launch during your battle (weak launching helps exponentially against the Wyvang variant, against Girago it's safer to launch at normal/high power) and he also just said he was using RS and not RSF. RS has long been known to suck against opposite-spin Attack due its low surface area and awful balance, so I can easily see DK Wyvang outspinning it on CS if it doesn't KO it/smash it into the ground before then. Maybe I should have been a bit more specific in the post where I mentioned Bakushin, haha. There's a reason why RS was so unpopular for Defense compared to CS upon its release (besides bad memories of Defense Mode Seaborg/Advance Guardian RCs being carp): Left Spin Attack was able to beat it consistently through KO and OS, and Right Spin Attack could OS it by Tornado Stalling, neither of which are problems CS usually faces.
I didn't realize that 1234beyblade had actually been using RS, so that does make a huge difference for sure haha.
Although interestingly, I did some testing after reading your post and while MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF is definitely rather immovable and my experience is consistent with yours in that respect, my MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang 85CS was actually able to OS it with a relatively high amount of consistency. The rubber on my preferred CS that I used to accomplish this is worn down a bit, as is the tip, but the plastic tip itself is exposed.
(Jul. 03, 2016 3:37 AM)Wombat Wrote: I also tested a few LTAC vs MSF-H DK Wyvang 85CS and for the most part, they won pretty handily. MF-H LLD 90RF was able to KO it fairly consistently (which probably isn't saying much, seeing as how much of a coin toss Attack vs Attack generally is), and being Left spin, also outspun it since DK Wyvang has pretty awful balance (didn't test vs. the Girago variant, so that might be able to OS, but I imagine a Girago/CS combo loses out on a lot of KOing power so I don't know how useful it would be in context). MF-H Quetzalcoatl 85RF also matches up against Dark Knight LTAC incredibly well; it is able to use its slopes to exploit the raised nature of Zero-G Wheels and scoop them out pretty consistently (especially if you use the Super Secret Sauce Launch Technique™). Admittedly it fares worse against Wyvang than it does against Girago though.
This is all great, but the problem is that none of these combos are nearly as versatile and relatively easy to use (in comparison to RF) as Dark Knight Wyvang CS is. Nobody is ever going to pull MF-H Quetzalcoatl 85RF in a tournament because it's use case (if what you're saying is true) is too specific. Lightning L Drago is obviously a much more widely useable Wheel, but even it doesn't have anywhere near the amount of Stamina or reach that Dark Knight can have.
(Jul. 03, 2016 3:37 AM)Wombat Wrote: Being an Attack type itself, Dark Knight LTAC takes some skill to use, which is another reason why I would be hesitant to ban it. Using CS/RSF/RB/RS makes it easier to control/require "less skill", but you trade off mobility and Attack power and are generally forced to use the recoil-laden Wyvang, who also has poor Stamina, to overcompensate (making you easy prey for opposing Attack types and Tornado Stallers).
This is true, but if my CS is any indication, it's also still possible to have decent Stamina using it paired with even Wyvang.
For me, the fact of the matter is that low track Dark Knight combos stand a chance against almost anything. Even in your tests against low track Attack combos, you said things like "was able to KO it fairly consistently", which means Dark Knight still had a decent chance of winning. And that's because of its incredible versatility. And by "versatility", I don't mean to say it is unbeatable; that's never the point. So often when we ban something it is because it is too versatile, making the selection process before any BeyBattle way more simplified than it should be. Competitive players crave these types of combos for a reason, and that's why I exploited it at the last Limited event, and why countless others have done so in recent history.
(Jul. 03, 2016 3:37 AM)Wombat Wrote: Something else I would also like to point out is that while that combo might do well in Toronto Flame HTSC/Earth LTSC meta, it might not always succeed elsewhere. And while success in one region vs. another isn't grounds for whether a part gets banned or not, we need to recognize that Toronto's meta does not represent the meta of every active region.
Yup, definitely true. Maybe my CS variant wouldn't have done as well if there was more low-track RF players that day, but even so, throughout that day I felt like there was nothing anybody could put up against me that I didn't have at least a shot at defeating with MF-H Dark Knight Wyvang 85CS. You can't ask for much more out of a single Beyblade combo than that.
In any case, Dark Knight has been abused enough in not only Toronto but other regions as well that to me, we have enough evidence to warrant trying a ban (keyword: "try". Nothing is ever fixed in Limited). Doing so well with it in the latest Toronto event is simply what put me over the edge personally in seeing how good it was and spurred me to start this discussion. I had recognized it's strength before, but hadn't given much thought to Limited since Burst came out, so it didn't really dawn on me until the night before the tournament as I was testing.
(Jul. 03, 2016 3:37 AM)Wombat Wrote: While my point of view might disagree with yours, I still think I make a good, convincing argument on why Dark Knight should remain legal. *horrible memories of Libra ban intensify* It's good, but I don't think it is overcentralizing or overpowered, and I think a ban would be an overreaction.
In the end, I guess the better question is: what do you think would happen if Dark Knight were banned? Only good things, in my opinion, as Cake so perfectly outlines below:
(Jul. 03, 2016 5:25 PM)Cake Wrote: My knee-jerk reaction to this is to immediately launch into a debate about how I think Jade is great and Dark Knight isn't game breaking, but after taking some time to think it over, I don't think it really matters whether Dark Knight is broken or if it does have viable counters.
Limited without Dark Knight is simply a better game; even though there is something of a stable type triangle with Dark Knight, that triangle and the meta at large is largely shaped by the threat that Dark Knight poses. It destroys even the most defensive mid-height opponents, threatens super-tall Stamina, and has the potential to spin-steal off of its main weakness, LTDC (which isn't usually enough to earn a win, but every bit helps).
With Dark Knight banned, as Kei said, it opens up the meta to a far wider assortment of Attack types, and reduces the threat to mid-height combos. I don't think there is a different combo that will suddenly take over in Dark Knight's absence; although Jade and Bakushin are highly effective Defense types, they don't have the Stamina or Attack to be threatening the way Libra was. If anything, Flame 230 gets my vote for next "irritating, meta-changing, overused" combo, but it's easily KOed with mid-height Upper Attack combos (which are at best a risky niche choice with Dark Knight around). No other Attack part has the kind of reach that Dark Knight has, so choosing the right Track should become more important, instead of just going low DK and KOing any height. Attackers on mid-height Tracks should lose very consistently to LTDC, and Attackers on lower Tracks won't be able to reach 230 with the kind of power Dark Knight offers.
TL;DR we kill the Batman to give everyone else a chance
Agree with every word.
I think this dank meme combo would be a big threat once DK gets banned.
Lighting CH120RB
It can easily KO Flame 230, it has pretty good chances of beating stamina and defense combos, and i feel like if you weak launch or hard launch (depending on what attack combo you're facing) it should have pretty good chances of winning.
Weak launch against lower track combos, and hard launch against equal or higher track attackers. I feel like that would work. Though in the end it's just a theory so ye xd.
Lighting CH120RB
It can easily KO Flame 230, it has pretty good chances of beating stamina and defense combos, and i feel like if you weak launch or hard launch (depending on what attack combo you're facing) it should have pretty good chances of winning.
Weak launch against lower track combos, and hard launch against equal or higher track attackers. I feel like that would work. Though in the end it's just a theory so ye xd.
Quote:Lighting CH120RB
You could always use Dark Knight Girago 100RF again-
oh wait.
I wouldn't imagine it posing such a threat to Limited. Scythe CH120RF is still a thing and so is Bakushin 90RF. Even Jade has proven to be good against Lightning RB and for Defense as a whole.
We could probably start talking some more about Gravity once we decide what we're going to do with Dark Knight. Wombat brought up some seriously good points about it. I'll definitely get to doing some tests on it in a bit.
