MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)

If they're just banning op parts why haven't they banned Bearing drive
(Aug. 18, 2017  8:34 PM)xXMindMasterXx Wrote: If they're just banning op parts why haven't they banned Bearing drive

bc it's not OP? lol

it is able to be KOed by many attack types so it's not OP at all
(Aug. 18, 2017  8:34 PM)xXMindMasterXx Wrote: If they're just banning op parts why haven't they banned Bearing drive

Do remember 1 thing. You can always use any original MFB part in Standard Format and this list is just for LTD. Also Bearing Drive isn't really op. I agree its powerful but it's not like it can't be beaten.

A attack should easily take care of it especially, 230CS/MB OSes it consistantly (unless BD user is using Geminios which can KO). Though I agree Scythe BD is kinda very powerful, it still loses (especially when your launch isnt fast).
Still bearing drive with a defense fusion wheel has good stamina and is hard to knock out but I don't know much about it because I am recieving mine in a couple weeks so you're probably right.
WD145 isnt banned and is good for deflecting low down attacks
(Oct. 28, 2017  7:38 PM)Legoblader27 Wrote: WD145 isnt banned and is good for deflecting low down attacks

WD145 tends to scrape a lot and usually does not work as advertised. It is not a good track at all.
(Oct. 29, 2017  5:30 PM)Legoblader27 Wrote: is left rotation banned?


No, but Ronin/Dark Knight as a part is. You can still use Gravity Destroyer for both spin directions.
LONG necro, but I remember th!nk being very, very vocal about not letting RS get unbanned because he thinks it will overcentralize attack around left spin. Funny enough, long after he left, that's exactly what happened.

It's true that RS suffers from what I call "crippling overspecialization": It will wreck Attack but is useless against anything else. Now, what I think happened is that th!nk (no pun intended) entirely based the ban-worthiness of RS based on it's inability to be KOed, forgetting that it has many counters and it has singular use (it wears very quickly too, to the point it's the only part I refuse to use for more than five rounds of testing. Not to mention the one I got in Strongest Blader Set was a bit skewed (it's not straight) and so wobbles like Quake).

It's also kinda ironic how Gravity gets unbanned while DK/Ronin now bites the dust hahaha.
Seeing as Metal Fight Beyblade's tenth anniversary is coming up this August, how the MFL ban list hasn't been updated since 2016, and how Scythe and Gravity dominated BEYBLADE NORTH 2018, I've been thinking that now might be a good time to make a change. Read more here: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Toronto...18-MFL-BST

What do you guys think about banning Scythe and Gravity?
(Jun. 17, 2018  8:55 PM)Kei Wrote: Seeing as Metal Fight Beyblade's tenth anniversary is coming up this August, how the MFL ban list hasn't been updated since 2016, and how Scythe and Gravity dominated BEYBLADE NORTH 2018, I've been thinking that now might be a good time to make a change. Read more here: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Toronto...18-MFL-BST

What do you guys think about banning Scythe and Gravity?

I've always been a proponent for banning Gravity; when it got unbanned I didn't really understand it since Gravity was dominating when the format first started. Scythe is a very powerful one as well; nobody has ever doubted it's versatility and strength even when Libra and Batman was still around.

On the opposite side of the token. I'm just not sure if I'm really for the super restrictive direction limited has gone though since the Libra/DK/Ronin bans. I think that was a sour turning point for the format. Something will always rise to the top. When will the bans stop?
Kei was there a certain version of destroyer being used more with gravity?
(Jun. 17, 2018  11:07 PM)juncction Wrote: On the opposite side of the token. I'm just not sure if I'm really for the super restrictive direction limited has gone though since the Libra/DK/Ronin bans. I think that was a sour turning point for the format. Something will always rise to the top. When will the bans stop?

One of the best things about Metal Fight Limited Format is/was how fluid it was. The bans were never meant to just stop when we found some imaginary 'perfect' version of the format. At least, that's how I've perceived it. There's really no limits on the changes we can make, and I think they are needed in order to keep the format even more fresh and interesting than it already is given that it's based on a long discontinued series.

It certainly doesn't hurt to make changes, see how it goes, and then respond with another update for this format since the entire premise of it is based upon restrictions.

That being said, this spirit has admittedly been a bit lost for a while given the lower focus put on Metal Fight in general since the launch of Beyblade Burst.

But if there's one thing I think Metal Fight Limited has proven, it's that as a community we are capable of crafting a metagame which is just as enjoyable, if not more enjoyable, balanced, and exciting than the unlimited metagame crafted by TAKARA-TOMY.

In many ways, our approach is arguably more pure because we are bound solely by the goal of making the gameplay fun and balanced while with TAKARA-TOMY, I think it's hard to deny that they also need to consider profit and the marketable features of the Beyblades they release (hence the inevitable power creep in every series).

(Jun. 19, 2018  5:55 PM)Flame-Byxis Wrote: @[Kei] was there a certain version of destroyer being used more with gravity?

I'm not sure, actually!
Just a heads up to everyone: we are also considering a ban on 230 for Metal Fight Limited.

For some time now, tall 230CS and 230MB combos in particular have been making a huge impact on the metagame, especially in the early stages of events. Using such a smooth and tall Track in combination with Metal Wheels like Flame has made such combos difficult to reach for most traditional attackers which are lower. We hope that by banning 230, Attack combinations will become a more popular choice and that players looking for defense will have to consider committing to using RS-based combinations which are more singularly focused in their purpose most of the time.

We are hoping to make a decision on this by the end of this weekend alongside several other rule updates for Organizers and Burst Format, so if you have any feedback on this idea, please let your voice be heard now! Smile
I'm strongly against the 230 Track ban. Banning 230 allows LTDC/LTSC to be annihilated by Attack combination. Ideally we should throw Metal Fury Scythe MW on the ban list.
So essentially we're looking at bans on Scythe, Gravity, and 230. Definitely some good and some bad here, but I'll start off by echoing Juncction in that it's likely we will never reach a point of complete balance in the Limited metagame. I've said it before, but I believe that of all the WBO formats, Limited is by far the most balanced - in fact, I would go so far as to say that attack (which has traditionally been undervalued in Beyblade) actually has the upper hand. This is really where my issue with the Scythe and 230 bans lie. While a part of me does agree that Scythe is simply too versatile (not to mention that we've had issues with it before), it's also the only metal wheel that is able to shut down attack down very easily. In a meta where the majority of competitive combos are attack and attack/defense hybrids, I would argue that having a strong defensive wheel is actually necessary in order to have a balanced game in which not every match-up can result in a KO. At the same time, Scythe is not overpowered in the sense that it can compete with every type. Scythe's attack is mediocre at best, and in a Scythe vs Stamina (Earth/Meteo/Burn,etc) match-up, Scythe will undoubtedly lose. 

Regarding a ban on 230, my feelings are a bit stronger. The absence of 230 means the absence of any track with a height above 120. 230 is one of, if not the only viable tall spin track in Limited (most players would agree that SR200, BGrin, and W145 simply aren't safe choices, and F230 will be phased out with a ban on Gravity). Without 230, players have no incentive to venture outside of the current low-track meta, severely limiting height match-ups and part diversity. At the same time, bans on both Scythe and 230 mean that there is no reliable counter to attack, resulting in a meta that is overrun by low-height attack/defense hybrids. 

Given the time-sensitive nature of this proposal, I've done just a few short tests to hopefully help prove that 230 isn't quite as overpowered as people may think it is.

Hope this helps illustrate my feelings on the matter. And more tests are always welcome Wink
Thank you for the tests!

It is certainly a complex issue. Saying that "Scythe's attack is mediocre at best, and in a Scythe vs Stamina (Earth/Meteo/Burn,etc) match-up, Scythe will undoubtedly lose" is a bit too general of a statement in my view. There could be cases where that's true, but it depends on the other parts used with both combinations. For example, Scythe becomes a lot more powerful Attack-wise against taller opponents when you add Gemios to it.

My main thought after reading your post was: what is your opinion of RS? You mention that with Scythe and 230 gone there would be no counter to Attack, but RS is pretty strong against Attack, is it not? Even low Track combos like Bakushin or Earth on RSF are pretty strong defensively, right?
(Jul. 28, 2018  2:50 AM)Kei Wrote: Thank you for the tests!

It is certainly a complex issue. Saying that "Scythe's attack is mediocre at best, and in a Scythe vs Stamina (Earth/Meteo/Burn,etc) match-up, Scythe will undoubtedly lose" is a bit too general of a statement in my view. There could be cases where that's true, but it depends on the other parts used with both combinations. For example, Scythe becomes a lot more powerful Attack-wise against taller opponents when you add Gemios to it.

My main thought after reading your post was: what is your opinion of RS? You mention that with Scythe and 230 gone there would be no counter to Attack, but RS is pretty strong against Attack, is it not? Even low Track combos like Bakushin or Earth on RSF are pretty strong defensively, right?

I like the idea of the bans buffing RS in theory, but wanted to test before replying to this post, as I've never looked extensively into RS - it just isn't viable. Decided to perform a couple tests with different wheels against the same opposite spin attack type to test out a low track RS combo's viability.

Earth Cancer 90 RS vs MF Lightning L-Drago TR145 RF
Earth Cancer 90 RS: 2/10 (all OS)
Lightning L Drago TR145 RF: 8/10 (all KO)


Unfortunately Earth stood no chance against even an opposite spin attack type at a medium height. Decided to switch to Burn.

Burn Cancer 90 RS vs MF Lightning L-Drago TR145 RF
Burn Cancer 90 RF: 3/10 (all KO)
Lightning L-Drago TR145 RF: 7/10 (4 KO, 3 OS)
Ties: 1

With Burn, Lightning L-Drago was less likely to KO, but this situation ended up being equally bad for Burn, as the matches in which it didn't get KO'd, Burn got out-spun - by a pure attack type on RF. In my opinion, this really highlights the challenge of using RS - it may be decent for defense in certain situations, but if it can get out-spun by an RF attacker, it just isn't worth using, especially considering the prevalence of RSF and RB attackers which have even more stamina than RF/R2F.

Finally, I performed the same test with Scythe. My personal favorite set-up for Scythe has always been on low track defense tips due to its shape. While Scythe came very close to being out-spun on RS, it still managed to win consistently, illustrating how valuable it is for defense.

Scythe Cancer 90 RS vs MF Lightning L-Drago TR145 RF
Scythe Cancer 90 RS: 7/10 (4 KO, 3 OS)
Lightning-L Drago TR145 RF: 3/10 (all KO)
I'm still not really sure how I feel about banning any of Scythe, Gravity, or 230, but I think that if one of them is banned the other two must be as well, because the way the Limited meta is now these three parts kind of keep each other in check. Part of the reason I pushed for Gravity's reintroduction was to bring back one of 230's main counters in Gravity F230, and with that and Scythe Gemios/Escolpio gone Flame 230CS/MB/EDS becomes an even safer pick than before because only things like Bandid/Shinobi Wyvang, Meteo, and Lightning/Screw/Vulcan 145 would be able to take it out with some kind of consistency. Naturally, people would start using Flame TH220 instead so I did a few quick tests to see how it compared:

MF Flame Cancer 230CS vs MF Screw Horogium CH145RF
Flame: 6 wins (all OS)
Screw: 4 wins (3 KO, 1 OS)
Flame win rate: 60%

MF Flame Cancer TH220CS vs MF Screw Horogium CH145RF
Flame: 3 wins (all OS)
Screw: 7 wins (all KO)
Flame win rate: 30%

Between the 10mm height difference and less smooth shape of TH170 it was much easier for Screw to handle than 230 was, but I could still see this kind of combo being a safe option and it doesn't entirely eliminate the height dynamic from MFB.

I do feel like aside from on shorter tracks where Earth (for Stamina) or Bakushin/Jade (for Defense) are better options, Scythe chokes out most other competitive Stamina and Defense wheels. I was also surprised that TSO said that Scythe loses to Earth/Meteo/Burn in a Stamina match since in my experience the opposite had always been true:

Scythe Escolpio 145WD vs Earth Sagittario II 145WD
Scythe: 9 wins (all OS)
Earth: 1 win (OS)
Scythe win rate: 90%

I launched Scythe first every round, and swapped the 145WDs after 5 rounds too, so idk what could be causing the difference in our results. it must be my aa2 mold scythe

If Scythe goes, Gravity should probably go too as Scythe MF was one of the main things keeping Gravity F230 in check (though Burn/Vulcan/Aquario MF are less popular options that also work, on top of Earth LTSC and most upper attackers). Out of all of these, I actually think Gravity is the least problematic - it's versatile sure, but there are several combos that can counter its two most popular setups and I don't think it has any unwinnable matchups like 230 or Scythe do.

I've heard a few suggestions to bring Omega back and while that would solve the Gravity/Scythe/230 issue the meta is currently having I don't know if it would be a good thing in the long run just because it chokes out every other option for attack, lol.
Thanks for the tests, guys!

I wish those RS tests had been done with Bakushin or Jade (although I know you don't have Jade, The Supreme One) and used MF-H, as I do believe as well that both of those Wheels are stronger defensively on low tracks. Burn especially isn't something I would use for defense ...

Worth noting also that left-spin Wheels like Lightning L Drago in particular are much stronger against RS than right-spin Attack types, as is illustrated in this testing I did a million years ago when RS first came out. Looking at that also makes me want to try Tracks like GB145 with RS again ... but my only GB145 is stuck to a Gravity Wheel I have lol.

It might be interesting to ban only Scythe and 230 as it would allow Gravity to be usable with RS, giving users the ability to choose spin direction based on their opponent to counter things like Lightning RF.

I also echo Wombat's experience with Scythe. It's been a while, but I feel like the only thing pure stamina-wise that beats it for me was maybe Duo.
At the request of Kei I did these testings last night. I used a SonoKong BB-10 and a yellow string launcher from the pre-HWS set. Here are all the tests;
Bakushin Leone 105 RS vs Vulcan Gemios CH120 RF
Bakushin: 9 wins (7 KO, 2 OS)
Vulcan: 1 win (1 KO)
Vulcan win rate: 10%
 
I stopped at ten rounds since it was obvious how the results would be. With the advice of Kei I switched to a lower track to see if that would perform better.

Bakushin Leone 105 RS vs Vulcan Gemios 100 RF
Bakushin: 10 wins (8 KO, 2 OS)
Vulcan: 10 wins (10 KO)
Vulcan win rate: 50%

A metal face would've really helped Vulcan because there was a lot of self-KOing on it's part. Though, when it did stay in it would either KO or just be deflected by Bakushin. 

Bakushin Leone 105 RS vs Gravity Perseus 100 RF:
Bakushin: 8 wins (8 KO)
Gravity: 12 wins (12 KO) 
Gravity win rate: 60%

KO or bust. I was honestly surprised by these results.

Bakushin Leone 105 RS vs Screw Pisces 100 RF
Bakushin: 10 wins (9 KO, 1 OS)
Screw: 10 wins: (10 KO)
Screw win rate: 50%

Love me some more self-KOing.. This is the end of the results I did, though please keep in mind how a metal face would have helped and round with no contact were not counted. 
I’m so happy there is still discussion with this format going on. I remember it just being my overall favorite thing to participate with and share my own testing and experiences.

The gravity metal wheel still on the fence too... I love it.
Is L-Drago Destroy legal? Why/Why not?

I own two seperate releases. One Hasbro non-Hyperblade, one either TT or Sonokong, I can't remember. The part weights are wildly different between the two of them, amounting to over ten grams on the MW and roughly half a gram on the plastic segment. By interchanging the two, I can make a varient weighing as little as 33.4g and one weighing as much as 44.5g. Well within and significantly outside of the format's normal limits, respectively.

I feel like this should be addressed somewhere.
(Feb. 27, 2019  1:59 AM)Dracomageat Wrote: Is L-Drago Destroy legal? Why/Why not?

I own two seperate releases. One Hasbro non-Hyperblade, one either TT or Sonokong, I can't remember. The part weights are wildly different between the two of them, amounting to over ten grams on the MW and roughly half a gram on the plastic segment. By interchanging the two, I can make a varient weighing as little as 33.4g and one weighing as much as 44.5g. Well within and significantly outside of the format's normal limits, respectively.

I feel like this should be addressed somewhere.

The rulebook states the following are illegal:

- L-Drago Destroy Metal Frame [4D]
- L-Drago Destructor Metal Frame [Hyperblade]

Hasbro's L-Drago Destructor Metal Frame [Metal Fury] is much lighter than the Hyperblade one and the original TT/SK verson if my memory serves me correctly, which is why that one is allowed and the other is not.