MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)

I don't know whether it should be banned or not, honestly. It's in a different weight group with just about all the other metal wheels in Limited, but I feel Jade would be beneficial to Defense. Cake had posted tests a while ago where Bakushin RSF had did very poorly against Pegagis Attack. It may be good to keep it up there just so attack isn't insanely dominant.

I think even then, we should maybe still explore all options of versatility. Testing out things like Jade for anti-attack and maybe even stamina can be good to see if it's a threat and is as versatile as Libra was.
Time to take aim at my opinion after a long time lol. Keep in mind I haven't played for a long time so this is based on how I remember them last time.

jade ban: Jade is heavy, but it's shape produces too much recoil for Defense and/or Stamina. It's as far from ban-worthy as a Barrett M82 can shoot [read: very far]. IMO it's not going to the hot seat very soon.

libra Ban: Agree. I always reach for Libra when testing anything vs defense, though Libra anti-attack is powerful too IIRC, and Libra has decent stamina. While a ban is much less justified this time as there are things that can beat it, Libra's still going to stick out as a choice when you do a tourney battle. Besides, you guys need to stop chipping of your Libras for once.

Omega Ban: Never owned one but I can see why it's too powerful; it's heavy [+37g is no joke for this format], really good attack points [back in the day if used right it matches up to Blitz/Variares] and whatnot.

as for Bakushin RSF, Bakushin needs 90 AND RSF/RS/RB to do well, otherwise it just gets smacked around on higher tracks and scraped to death on 85. And even with those, you probably can't take down Pegasus; Bakushin does well against things like Screw or Vulcan which cannot hit downward effectively, because that rock cliff just deflects blows. Pegasus can hit downward from 145 heights and on an LTDC that is potentially bad news.
Guys, I have a humble opinion, why don't you put a weight limit in limited? that may allow you to unban certain things that are really powerful when used with heavy combinations but not has much in lighter counterparts, and that maybe allow to unban certain disk tracks to use with lighter wheels, also that would ban most heavy wheels without being named (for example: with a weight limit, certainly jade would be allowed to be used, but big bang don't)

I think this has been proposed, but not tried, however it kept coming to my mind that in this format could be used because it's based mostly on weight (Basalt was banned because it's weight, Omega too, also Hell, most useless 4D because of the same -even when they were always useless in standard-, Disk based tracks because of the same) so maybe a limitation on weight could "almost" ban all of them but at the same time would give light wheels a niche use with them

If I'm wrong, please elaborate the answer in order for me to understand why I'm wrong
Duo is the biggest problem with a weight limit. It's relatively light, a defensive tank, and has incredible Stamina while also performing well against left-spin.

Also, not everyone has access to a scale, and the wiki may or may not reflect the exact real-life masses of each part. What do you tell the kid whose combo is .2g over the limit when weighed at a tournament when the wiki said it should be .1g under?
(Oct. 14, 2015  3:07 PM)Cake Wrote: Duo is the biggest problem with a weight limit. It's relatively light, a defensive tank, and has incredible Stamina while also performing well against left-spin.

Also, not everyone has access to a scale, and the wiki may or may not reflect the exact real-life masses of each part. What do you tell the kid whose combo is .2g over the limit when weighed at a tournament when the wiki said it should be .1g under?

For Duo, well, for that cases it would be a pointed out ban, I know there are always that kind of cases (Even with weight limit, Libra could be still banned too), but the idea would be to reduce them to minimum and to expand possibilities (for example, really light wheels combinations with heavy tracks)

For the weights, yeah, I know it could be a problem, but the weighting couldn't be assisted in the tournament? (when registering or between rounds with assistance of the staff) because the organizers would still have to have one

It could also be possible to ask how they manage the weighting in japan, if I'm right, they have a weight limit
Weighting each beyblade/part individually, for each beyblade, for each participant, is way too time-consuming and is a major hassle. Even at just a small tournament of 8 people, large amounts of time would be wasted.

As for the parts you mentioned [Basalt, Hell, useless 4D, Libra, etc]:

-You and I weren't around when Basalt was a dominant force in the meta, but the top brass on this forum wouldn't ever want to go through a time period, when there was only one part that was the only viable choice, all over again.
-The useless 4D were "useless" not because of their weight, but because during their release, already better parts were already in play [e.g Fusion and Kreis were overshadowed by the nearly recoil-less Death and Duo by the time of their release, Omega couldn't be effective like Blitz and Variares without skill, and Jade is terrible at everything]. Heavy=/=Good [at least not for them]

No hard feelings Izhkoort Smile
If there were to be a weight limit, I would say that 45g for the entire combo should be the maximum. 50g starts allowing stuff like Phantom Scorpio 85MF in, which, needless to say, would be very bad. 40g is too light - your options get really restricted and Metal Faces are pretty much banned. MF-H Earth Cygnus GB145RB/RSF is about 44.6g, and as pretty much the heaviest Defense setup around, it should be a good upper limit for masses. Jade LTDC is still OK, though Jade can't use a Metal Face; however, there still are problems - MF Gravity Perseus CH120RF is legal, and you can probably sneak in Hell as well. Bringing Libra back might help re-balance things, but otherwise the ban list would look pretty much the same as the current one. Hell and Gravity would get banned pretty quickly, then Libra and Omega, and we would be back to where we are now, but with the addition of a few combos trading off a Metal Face for BD145, E230, or SA165, and a few that can't use a Metal Face at all.

Also, now that I think about it, Meteo would be much stronger. It's so light that it would be able to use BD145/SA165, and there would absolutely have to be a ban on RDF to prevent it from stonewalling and OSing all sorts of stuff.
It's something that could be tested, at least informally to know what would happen, because the disk based tracks would be also available for certain wheels, and that could make a difference too, a weight limit, good or bad, would certainly be a game changer, it would be interesting to know if it's or is not viable :p
there should be no more bans on defense, there are way too many! the banning of jade just because it is too heavy is equally ridiculous as unbanning variares because it is too light.
jade: I don't think it deserves a ban. Sure it's heavier than everything else but can it outperform its lighter competition? According to Cake's thread it outperforms Bakushin for LTDC, but I know it can't outperform stuff like Earth, Scythe, or Duo for Stamina. Not sure about how it performs for Attack in comparison to Pegasis, so if someone could do that test that would be cool. I would do it myself but my doctor has forbidden me to test I left my Stadium and Pegasis at home (I didn't think Omega would get banned ok).

@Weight Limit: While I respect the idea, I don't think it will work very well. Organizers and Judges would either need to A) memorize the weight of basically every part, which is difficult or B) bring a scale to all events to weigh each combo which is time consuming. Even if a 45g weight limit was in effect, here are some pretty OP combos you could probably sneak in (can't check for sure because the Beywiki/Beyblade Wiki transition isn't complete for all the articles), and there's probably a few more that I can't think of right now.
  • Face (1) Lightning (30) L-Drago (5?) BD145 (8) LRF (1) = 45g?
  • Face (1) Gravity (33) Perseus Sta. (3?) F230 (4?) GCF (2?) = 43g?
  • Face (1) Gravity (33) Perseus Sta. (3?) SA165 (6?) EWD (1) = 44g?
  • Face (1) Meteo (28?) L-Drago II (7?) BD145 (8) RDF (1) = 45g?

As for the official WBBA 47g weight limit in Japan, that was their "indirect" ban on Libra, and while I wasn't around at the time from what I've heard on the WBO its implementation didn't really solve any problems.
They tried to ban Libra+Metal Face+any track >1.5g basically back in the day. You CAN still use Libra (even with a >1.5g track) but without a metal face it's strength is reduced considerably.

Tried Jade in the past, it's quite a ferocious same-height attacker but sucks at pretty much anything else. What Theblackdragon said about it being 4D's equivalent of Poison might as well be true.
Hey, I would recommend you to ban Variares, as it is too much heavy, and would probably knock out it's opponent in many cases, you can see proof in the video below that how it knocked out proto nemesis! Well, the credit to video goes to Cannon .

You can see video here:

P.S: Sorry, I didn't read the "All 4D/Hyperblade Metal Wheels EXCEPT Jade" line.
i though of my own Combo Bey Ray Aquario W105RSF and L-Drago(prehybridWheel) 230WF
What is more OP, Libra or Basalt?
(Nov. 29, 2015  8:12 PM)Sapphire Wrote: What is more OP, Libra or Basalt?

At its time, mostly Libra.
Apologies for the bump, but I would like to ask: Is RS currently banned?
I ask this because while it is not listed in the list of banned parts in the OP, an explanation for its ban remains in the spoiler below it.
(Jun. 05, 2016  2:06 AM)DFB3636 Wrote: Apologies for the bump, but I would like to ask: Is RS currently banned?
I ask this because while it is not listed in the list of banned parts in the OP, an explanation for its ban remains in the spoiler below it.

RS was actually unbanned, and there was an announcement for it too. It is probably just a mistake that it was left in.
A Case for re-unbanning Gravity Perseus

So it's been about 2 1/2 years since Gravity was banned from the Limited Format. Recently I have been talking with a few other mentors and other people who are knowledgeable about the game, and the majority of them believe that Gravity is nowhere near as "broken" as it was back in January 2014.

Gravity was originally banned from Limited Format after only four tournaments had been held, one (or two? I don't remember if the Toronto one was) of which was unranked. In hindsight, banning a part after only two ranked tournament seems like a bit of a hasty decision to me.
  • Gravity was used heavily in the first unranked NC tournament, but as it was unranked people were likely not playing as seriously as they would have in a ranked event, and were trying out relatively unorthodox combos (I remember Gravity X:D placed in that event).
  • At the Toronto event Gravity was used a few times, mainly on a D125GCF but I also remember seeing some unusual combos there too (Sagittatio 90RF and Libra X:D). I remember the F230GCF variant was used at least once by Jesse and that Kei beat it with Samurai Wyvang.
  • At the Michigan (maybe it was Illinois) event, I remember Coach saying Gravity was used a relatively low number of times (I want to say 4) and that it lost all of its battles. I don't remember if it was used by any of the placers but I do remember that Coach used it twice, so it was definitely used by someone who knew what they were doing.
  • The ranked NC event (which I believe was the first event where Gravity F230GCF was common knowledge throught the competitive players in the community), Gravity saw moderate use (on B:D, R145R2F, and F230GCF setups) but the only placer who used Gravity was [)ragon, who only used it once. Though I lost to the F230GCF variant twice during that tournament it was probably more due to my lack of skill with Lightning and Metal Flat than Gravity being OP. The people who beat me with it were also Dark_Mousy and geetster99, who are both highly skilled players that probably would have beaten me without Gravity anyways.

The primary reasons behind Gravity's popularity during the few tournaments prior to its ban was that it was at the top of th!nk's "this might be too OP" list, and mainly due to Kaneki/Galaxy/whatever he was back then's testings which showed Gravity dominating most opponents. While th!nk was unquestionably a very influential member when it came to deciding the Limited banlist, it was later discovered that Kaneki's tests were all fabricated. The posts of these users, among others, may have caused people to overestimate Gravity's abilities. Admittedly I was a supporter of Gravity's ban when it happened, but in retrospect it was more of an overreaction to the two losses I suffered at Raleigh: Revival than anything else.

Multiple new developments in the Limited metagame (the discovery of Dark Knight LTAC or Scythe Stallers, for example), have rendered the versatile "problem combo" that was the primary reason Gravity was banned (Gravity F230GCF) significantly less effective than it was before these developments occurred. I did some tests against a few of the most popular contemporary combos in Limited, as well as a few other combos I believe would be a good option to use against Gravity in a tournament situation/combos I expect to become popular in the current meta.

The Gravity I used in these tests is the heavier version of Mold 1 (34.7 grams) from Random Booster 7. for all of these Gravity was always launched in the opposite spin direction of its opponent, and against Attack types it was Weak Launched, but with enough power to Tornado Stall for Mobile Defense/Stamina purposes. Gravity was always launched first, except when it went against Flame 230MB when I launched Flame first an Scythe MF, where I alternated every round. My F230 is also orange Takara Tomy. Not sure which mode my Perseus was in, but I don't think it particularly matters with the Stamina ver. (which is the best ver. for F230GCF), and like maybe 2 of the combos I tested against it would even hit the CW in the first place.

MF-L Gravity Perseus (Stamina) F230GCF vs. MF Flame Cancer 230MB
Gravity: 8 wins (6 KO, 2 OS)
Flame: 12 wins (1 KO, 11 OS)
2 ties redone
Gravity win rate: 40%
The way this match normally played out if Gravity did not KO was that Gravity would remain in the center and lose spin while Flame circled around it at an extreme angle and outspun it without contact.

MF-L Gravity Perseus (Stamina) F230GCF vs. MSF-H Dark Knight Zirago (Crystal Up) 90RF
Gravity: 11 wins (2 KO, 9 OS)
Zirago: 9 wins (8 KO, 1 OS)
5 ties redone
Gravity win rate: 55%
A lot of these OSes were very close, but Gravity managed to OS 90% of the time.

MF-L Gravity Perseus (Stamina) F230GCF vs. MF-L Scythe Escolpio W105MF
Gravity: 5 wins (all KO)
Scythe: 15 wins (11 KO, 4 OS)
3 ties redone
Gravity win rate: 25%
Back in 2014 geetster discovered that Burn 85MF was able to beat Gravity F230GCF, and that seems to hold true for the more modern Scythe Staller as well. All 5 of Gravity's KOs were late game and all happened in consecutive rounds, which was weird but probably doesn't mean too much lol.

MF-L Gravity Perseus (Stamina) F230GCF vs. MSF-H Bandid Wyvang (Crystal Up) H145RSF
Gravity: 7 wins (2 KO, 5 OS)
Bandid: 13 wins (12 KO, 1 OS)
2 ties redone
Gravity win rate: 35%
While this opponent isn't particularly popular yet, I can see it becoming so in the near future as it mauls Flame 230 and Earth LTSC.

MF-L Gravity Perseus (Stamina) F230GCF vs. MF-H Scythe Escolpio TH170C
Gravity: 14 wins (1 KO, 13 OS)
Scythe: 6 wins (5 KO, 1 OS)
1 tie redone
Gravity win rate: 65%
I used a combo similar to this at Anime North with Beafowl (because it's shaped like Pegasis II and is also my favorite CW) and RSF (because I'm more comfortable with launching that aggressively than CS), and the concept was that it would be tall and grippy enough to resist most LTAC and could KO HTSC with the Scythes. Like the Bandid combo, it's probably going to become popular in the near future as well.

MF-L Gravity Perseus (Stamina) F230GCF vs. MF-H Lightning L-Drago D125RF
Gravity: 4 wins (1 KO, 3 OS)
LLD: 16 wins (all KO)
1 tie redone
Gravity win rate: 20%
um, outch. Lightning was always the go-to wheel to counter Gravity though, so I kinda expected something like this.

As for Gravity on traditional Attack/Stamina setups, I've found that Gravity doesn't have quite as much power as Pegasis, LLD, or DK (Cosmic, Screw, and Quetz get better results for me too, but your results may vary), and the versatility of dual spin doesn't really help it much as an Attack combo (unless you're up against RS, which is rare) since you probably won't be winning any LAD battles anyways (especially if you're using R145). With the meta as unfriendly as it is to CH120EWD and B:D height spin-equalizers I can't see Gravity having terrible success there either.

So, what does everyone else think? Is it safe to unban Gravity now? I think it would definitely be interesting to see it reintroduced into the current meta, and frankly looking back I'm not particularly sure it should have been banned in the first place given the context of the ban.

p.s. leave batman alone pls
My reply is going to be pretty short because it's been two years since I participated in a Limited tournament and I wouldn't know how the meta has developed since, but from my experience, Gravity for pure attack is good, but roughly on par with Lightning at the end of the day. Since Limited emerged, multiple defense tips have been unbanned to make defense more viable, while popular attack wheels like Libra, Omega, and Gravity are now illegal to use. I personally never had the desire to use Gravity with F230 GCF/CF, which appears to have been the primary reason for its ban, but given the tests that Wombat just shared and the fact that Kaneki/galaxy blade/L was really the biggest proponent of the ban, I do think its status should be re-evaluated.
I agree with you completely. in my experience, Gravity doesn't have as much power as screw, DKG, and even wheels such as crystal up Theif Phoenic, Metal Fury Cosmic, or Vulcan for that matter. I may not be as good of a blader as a lot of you are, but It is still safe to say, in my opinion, that Gravity no longer requires a ban.
Definitely agree on re-evaluating the ban, especially with the Kaneki incident. I haven't played with Gravity in God knows how long and I honestly forgot what it was like for the most part. As far as I could remember, it was mediocre for just about everything. Versatile for sure, but beatable. Will post some more thoughts later on. Smile
Thanks for these tests, Wombat. Actually, during prep for NC last week, I thought about how much I'd like to be able to use Gravity in Limited again, ha.

I agree that, after all this time, Gravity's place on the LTD Ban List ought to be reevaluated. Despite my love for Gravity Perseus and dual-spin, at the moment, based just on prior experience and tests, I'm a little skeptical that it would still be too competitively versatile. Of course, more tests will be needed before any final judgement is passed, but thanks as well for initiating this!

It's important to note, however, that Gravity doesn't actually have three molds as was once believed, but rather only two: the first one with its larger bumps, and Sonokong's lighter, smoother mold. Not sure if BeyWiki was ever updated with my edit, but here's where it was discussed:
I've taken time to look over the old discussion on the Gravity ban, and I feel like it was waaay over-hyped. Between the newness of the format, the fabricated tests, TBD's F230GCF obsession, and th!nk's high opinion of Gravity, Gravity F230GCF/CF was under far more scrutiny than it should have been. The only problem I see is that Gravity is both a good spin-stealer and a good Attack type, but without BD145 and RDF it doesn't have the ability to safely do both on the same setup, which would be threatening enough to be OP. I think it was overused because it was a safe pick and was known to be good - now that we've done more tests and the meta has evolved, I doubt that Gravity will dominate the meta so much. It's easy to KO when not on a rubber tip, and although it would be top-tier Attack, it's not significantly better than anything else we already have.

I don't/didn't think it needed a ban then, and it definitely doesn't need a ban now.
So if memory serves, Maryland actually held the first limited tournament (double elimination, I have the face from it to prove it, #firstgoldface) and I went undefeated in it using nothing but Gravity Perseus F230GCF (I admittedly don't have my gravity or a stadium with me to test right now), but while the F230GCF variant may be beatable I fear it would be nearly unstoppable on low track GF /120ishGCF (actually lets unban it and let me win a few limited tournaments with that please)
(Jun. 23, 2016  2:03 AM)Time Wrote: So if memory serves, Maryland actually held the first limited tournament (double elimination, I have the face from it to prove it, #firstgoldface) and I went undefeated in it using nothing but Gravity Perseus F230GCF (I admittedly don't have my gravity or a stadium with me to test right now), but while the F230GCF variant may be beatable I fear it would be nearly unstoppable on low track GF /120ishGCF (actually lets unban it and let me win a few limited tournaments with that please)

I think I vaguely remember a MD Limited tournament with Gravity, so you're probably right about it being before the ban, but I could have sworn NC had the first Limited tournament (Thunder Dome won IIRC).

Gravity D125/T125GCF did see some use during the era before Gravity was originally banned, but they were significantly less threatening than the F230GCF variant IIRC.

Damn, ever since Nocto first used that combo I was hoping no one would figure out Gravity GF until later, but I guess loyd87 had refreshed your memory recently. However, I tried MF-H Gravity CH120LW105GF a few times (LW105 scraped sometimes when I tried to Sliding Shoot it) and didn't find it incredibly impressive, but maybe my Giga Flat game is just weak. Using the Defense CW, I couldn't get it to KO Earth B:D in Right Spin except for twice, and couldn't get it to OS in either spin direction even when using MF-L and the Stamina CW (FWIW CH120 was a lot better at spin equalising than LW105 as Earth would end up smashing LW105 into the ground at the end of the match). Even on CH145 I only got it to KO Flame 230 once. In Left Spin, your opponent can just weak launch these combos to defend against the KO. I don't have the Attack CW, but I doubt it would help too much on probably the highest recoil tip in the game (I could see tons of double KOs).

Also I imagine nearly all the Attack types in Limited can beat it if they use the Super Secret Sauce Launch Technique. Eee