Hasbro's Lime Green Variares has parts that move on its own though. Mine surely does. Is that one illegal too? That wouldn't make much sense
MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)
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(Dec. 17, 2013 9:25 PM)DRAGON KING Wrote:(Dec. 17, 2013 9:12 PM)East Wrote: Hasbro's Lime Green Variares has parts that move on its own though. Mine surely does. Is that one illegal too? That wouldn't make much sense
Yes, it's hyperblades which means u can't use the MW, it's illegal because of its attack power and its pretty darn heavy.
Yeah I caught that after my post. Thanks
If anyone wants to be a huge help to me, I'd really appreciate some tests on RB in limited right about now, in comparison to RSF. Mainly on 85 and GB145.
I'm going to be proposing an update to the list soon, so having this ASAP would be really nice.
I'm going to be proposing an update to the list soon, so having this ASAP would be really nice.
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Was there any actual testing before putting RS, RB, and RDF on the ban list? The only one I could see beig banned from them is RDF. I don't think RS and RB are a threat. I'm confused why they are there.
I'd be happy to test ! Though I'm in my bed at the moment. So I can have them done in about....... 10 hours ? Sorry if it's too long.
I asked and was told they have to much pure defence, I could see RS being unbanned though.
I tested RS and RDF fairly extensively, albeit not formally (though I probably did more rounds with them than I would in formal testing). Here's why they're on the banlist, seeing as that was one of my major recommendations:
RS is ridiculous against Right Spin Attack, which are the majority of wheels in the format, and is crazy as an LTDC tip, where its stamina is proportionally less terrible. Its mere presence means people will rely on left spin attack over right spin 'just in case', and as one of the main aims of this format is to make older wheels usable in tournaments, and most older wheels are right spin attack wheels, that's really unhealthy for the variety in tournaments. Overall, it's just not a healthy part for limited, and the general consensus seems to be "it's staying banned forever".
RDF is very exploitable, but as it is less unfair on any particular spin direction we might look at giving it a trial run in the format in a future update once we feel the ban list is stable (assuming certain things that can exploit it are removed). At the least, I'll be vocally opposing it until that point.
If it helps, parts that were banned that didn't really get much testing as far as I know:
RB - If RB isn't all that strong then its ban is an error on my part, as I had heard very good things about its defense and usability and recommended banning it assuming it would be a lot like RS for the format (and the ban list is basically the exact list I recommended). In retrospect I should've been more careful and made sure it got testing (though like other things on this list, there were few people involved who had it), but on the other hand, starting with it banned was probably the safest decision anyway.
SP230 - Banned based on its weight and the fact it's a big plastic disk, with a major concern being its protection of the underside of Chrome Wheel setups. Given its nature, it was much safer to start with it banned.
Omega - This is a part I'd like to see tested, but testing that was around makes it look a little too powerful, and a blanket ban on 4d is easy for players to understand.
Jade - Heavier than Libra as it gets a clear wheel, and as Libra's weight is already really pushing it, we decided starting with it banned was the safest option.
Kreis - Heavier than Libra as it gets a clear wheel, and as Libra's weight is already really pushing it, we decided starting with it banned was the safest option.
Fusion - At least as heavy as Libra even without a clear wheel, and it saw more use than any of them, so it seemed safest to ban it pre-emptively.
Everything else had significant time and effort put into checking it, and while maybe one or two things were overlooked (mainly just how versatile gravity is IMO), I think we did a pretty impressive job given only a small group was really working on it as far as I know.
Hopefully no one minds me openly discussing this stuff (but if so they should be more clear about that, you all know me well enough by now), but I'll just add that people should keep in mind this was the only not entirely professional aspect of the decisions and work surrounding this format, and its still involved a lot of consideration of each of these parts (except maybe RB, which I feel may have been an oversight) before the format launched. As it is, I think we came really close to getting things perfect - certainly a lot better than many people seemed to think was even possible (especially considering the size of the group that did most of the work, each of whom should be very proud of themselves).
RS is ridiculous against Right Spin Attack, which are the majority of wheels in the format, and is crazy as an LTDC tip, where its stamina is proportionally less terrible. Its mere presence means people will rely on left spin attack over right spin 'just in case', and as one of the main aims of this format is to make older wheels usable in tournaments, and most older wheels are right spin attack wheels, that's really unhealthy for the variety in tournaments. Overall, it's just not a healthy part for limited, and the general consensus seems to be "it's staying banned forever".
RDF is very exploitable, but as it is less unfair on any particular spin direction we might look at giving it a trial run in the format in a future update once we feel the ban list is stable (assuming certain things that can exploit it are removed). At the least, I'll be vocally opposing it until that point.
If it helps, parts that were banned that didn't really get much testing as far as I know:
RB - If RB isn't all that strong then its ban is an error on my part, as I had heard very good things about its defense and usability and recommended banning it assuming it would be a lot like RS for the format (and the ban list is basically the exact list I recommended). In retrospect I should've been more careful and made sure it got testing (though like other things on this list, there were few people involved who had it), but on the other hand, starting with it banned was probably the safest decision anyway.
SP230 - Banned based on its weight and the fact it's a big plastic disk, with a major concern being its protection of the underside of Chrome Wheel setups. Given its nature, it was much safer to start with it banned.
Omega - This is a part I'd like to see tested, but testing that was around makes it look a little too powerful, and a blanket ban on 4d is easy for players to understand.
Jade - Heavier than Libra as it gets a clear wheel, and as Libra's weight is already really pushing it, we decided starting with it banned was the safest option.
Kreis - Heavier than Libra as it gets a clear wheel, and as Libra's weight is already really pushing it, we decided starting with it banned was the safest option.
Fusion - At least as heavy as Libra even without a clear wheel, and it saw more use than any of them, so it seemed safest to ban it pre-emptively.
Everything else had significant time and effort put into checking it, and while maybe one or two things were overlooked (mainly just how versatile gravity is IMO), I think we did a pretty impressive job given only a small group was really working on it as far as I know.
Hopefully no one minds me openly discussing this stuff (but if so they should be more clear about that, you all know me well enough by now), but I'll just add that people should keep in mind this was the only not entirely professional aspect of the decisions and work surrounding this format, and its still involved a lot of consideration of each of these parts (except maybe RB, which I feel may have been an oversight) before the format launched. As it is, I think we came really close to getting things perfect - certainly a lot better than many people seemed to think was even possible (especially considering the size of the group that did most of the work, each of whom should be very proud of themselves).
Here's my opinion on omega:
With the right technique and experience, it can prove to have good smash and it's pretty heavy ( i heard it can even be as good as blitz or variares if used right, but they were safer choices making them prefered). Attack is already very powerful in this format IMO, It would just make it stronger, especially against lighter wheels like H duo.
With the right technique and experience, it can prove to have good smash and it's pretty heavy ( i heard it can even be as good as blitz or variares if used right, but they were safer choices making them prefered). Attack is already very powerful in this format IMO, It would just make it stronger, especially against lighter wheels like H duo.
Yeah that was basically the reasoning we went with in banning it. Still, actual tests would be nice to be sure.
No, that's totally fine, thanks very much I've only just woken up as it is, haha.
(Dec. 20, 2013 2:34 AM)Galaxy Blade Wrote: I'd be happy to test ! Though I'm in my bed at the moment. So I can have them done in about....... 10 hours ? Sorry if it's too long.
No, that's totally fine, thanks very much
I've only just woken up as it is, haha.
Fake tests (Click to View)
That all looks quite reasonable, thanks a bunch for the help!
Two quick questions: Which direction were you using gravity in, and secondly, just out of curiosity, how did those KO's in the mirror match happen?
Two quick questions: Which direction were you using gravity in, and secondly, just out of curiosity, how did those KO's in the mirror match happen?
1st Answer: I was using it in right. Was I meant to use it in left......
2nd Answer: Sometimes my RB/RSF would get agrro and just KO. The more they made contact.... Well it lead to a KO.
2nd Answer: Sometimes my RB/RSF would get agrro and just KO. The more they made contact.... Well it lead to a KO.
Nope, that's fine, but if you could do tests against both on GB145 with it in left spin as well, that would be very useful, though it's not necessary unless you feel like doing more testing haha.
Yeah, I'll get those ASAP. I'm always up for testing, haha.
Fake tests (Click to View)
Those are excellent, thank you very much for all of your help
Double posts are generally fine as long as there's an important reason to do so, which tests count as.
Double posts are generally fine as long as there's an important reason to do so, which tests count as.
I want to do some testing if its not all taken. I have a huge variety of parts to use
EDIT: 200th post woop woop
EDIT: 200th post woop woop
Yes, we still have alot of testing, we need for limited. Just make sure you test against Tier combos. Read the thread Ingulit made. This thread was for discussion ban parts. Also, do you have a BB-10?
Yeah I have a bb 10
Seeing this in the Advanced form, I wanted to comment but I'm not smart enough yet I suppose. So Copy and Paste! So I'm quoting and giving my very short opinion.
These possibilities are from Th!nks post in the advanced form:
RB -> Legal
Strong Support~Th!nk's Thoughts
I agree with his stance except I believe RSF is a better defensive tip, and if it's not banned RB definitely should not be.
Gravity -> Banned
Moderate Support~Th!nk's thoughts
The spin stealer aspect is far inferior to any of the L-Drago's as well.
Spin Stealer Nerf: F230, B
and EWD (Legal -> Banned)
Moderate Support if Gravity remains legal/Weak to Moderate Support pending further observation if Gravity is banned/Weak Support for F230 and Oppose for B/EWD if RDF is unbanned.~Th!nk's thoughts
and EWD in a BB-10 all have one thing in common to me: Easy to KO this is where planning your bey choice comes in. They are not dominant at all unless you take away all our attack beys.
Libra (Legal -> Banned)
Moderate Oppose (May Change in Future)~Th!nks Thoughts
SA165 (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Oppose (May Change in Future)~Th!nk's thoughts
RDF (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Oppose (May Change in Future)~Th!nk's thoughts
These possibilities are from Th!nks post in the advanced form:
RB -> Legal
Strong Support~Th!nk's Thoughts
Quote:Pros
- Provides a third 'traditional' defense tip without being too powerful/oppressive or exploitable.
- Slight boost to defense types, maybe.
- Probably shouldn't have been banned in the first place (sorry, my bad!)
Cons
- It IS slightly better than RSF, but not by a significant margin
I agree with his stance except I believe RSF is a better defensive tip, and if it's not banned RB definitely should not be.
Gravity -> Banned
Moderate Support~Th!nk's thoughts
Quote:Pros:I disagree slightly here. I think Gravity has been dominant because everybody has it and is comfortable with it. As attack beys are created with Zero-G combos like Kei's Samura Wyvang (crystal up mode) and what Shining God MS was doing in Niles there will be less gravity used.
-Gravity saturates usage statistics aside from areas where Attack is very unsuccessful (though gravity spin stealers will probably show up in those soon enough)
-Gravity is arguably and is the strongest wheel of two different types (Attack and also Spin Stealers (and maybe Stamina as a whole)).
-Banning it will increase variation in attack wheels used, as its successors are much more evenly balanced with respect to each other
-Is somewhat polarising for the format as an Attack type wheel, due to good performance against other Attack wheels (which means banning itand being hard to stop without other very powerful customs (MF-H Libra CH120RF).
-Spin Stealers become a lot more balanced without Gravity, which will allow the rather large list of competitive stamina customs to see some use.
Cons
-Is a hit to Attack, and Attack only seemed overpowered in North Carolina's tournament
-Gravity is one of the more interesting wheels in the format in terms of the balance type setups it makes possible
-It's not really broken, though it definitely cuts it close, but then brokeness isn't necessary for a part to be banned in limited (which is one of the key differences between Limited and Standard).
Thoughts: This will probably depend on people's opinions on the direction we should be taking with Limited's banlist, but I personally think the format would be improved in terms of number of viable parts, tournament combo variety and overall enjoyability with Gravity banned, and see little cost in doing so, and so I would support a ban.
The spin stealer aspect is far inferior to any of the L-Drago's as well.
Spin Stealer Nerf: F230, B
and EWD (Legal -> Banned)Moderate Support if Gravity remains legal/Weak to Moderate Support pending further observation if Gravity is banned/Weak Support for F230 and Oppose for B
/EWD if RDF is unbanned.~Th!nk's thoughtsQuote:Pros:I disagree here again. F230CF, B
-Spin Stealers are very limited in terms of variety compared to what they render pointless.
-Makes the rather varied Stamina type worthwhile (or only EWD Stamina types, if only F230 is banned), making a number of parts competitive or viable (FS, for example, is not actually a bad stamina tip by any means, but it cannot handle spin stealers)
-Removes a lot of Gravity's dominance without hurting attack directly (will make defense more viable, hurting attack indirectly, however)
-Doesn't completely destroy Spin Stealers as EDS and WD etc still work against Defense
-Makes Defense more worthwhile and rewards skill with the type (aggro launching vs stamina)
-Makes tournaments more enjoyable, seeing as Spin Steal matches take a long time and there have been complaints about this.
-A step towards making SA165 balanced in Limited.
Cons
-May be best to see if this is necessary with Gravity banned if that happens
-F230 is a very interesting part, but we probably want to avoid a complex ban (on F230 with CF or GCF)
-Some would argue Spin Stealer dominance over stamina is valid based on previous generations
-If RDF is legalised, removing EWD is a really bad idea.
-Again, a case where something isn't so much broken as it is bad/unhealthy for the format.
Thoughts: I don't expect this to happen this time around (especially as a ban on Gravity could rebalance things somewhat though anything more than making EWD Stamina viable is unlikely), and imagine most of you are questioning my sanity right now, however I do feel it is in the best interests of the format, given they basically outclass stamina entirely (barring EWD users (which is very bad for tall tracks) in the case of EWD and B
and EWD in a BB-10 all have one thing in common to me: Easy to KO this is where planning your bey choice comes in. They are not dominant at all unless you take away all our attack beys.Libra (Legal -> Banned)
Moderate Oppose (May Change in Future)~Th!nks Thoughts
Quote:Pros:No opinion. I have yet to see it in action, though I'm planning on ordering one for this format.
-Libra is significantly heavier than the rest of the format
-Stronger than I initially thought, now I have a good RF
-MF-H Libra CH120RF is definitely one of the format's best combos
-Its presence significantly decreases the viability of a sizeable number of attack wheels (mostly lighter ones, most noticeably Pegasis, which is good enough to be considered 'competitive' if Libra isn't common in the area)
-Banning it is a big step towards SA165 becoming legal, though Libra is more important IMO.
Cons:
-Removing Libra allows the stronger attack types (especially gravity) to KO nearly the entire format.
-Its combinations do not seem to actually be broken yet, though this should be watched closely if Gravity is banned.
-Even with the sizeable hype behind it, Libra has not seen overwhelming popularity (though this could change once everyone gets their BB-96's for Christmas).
-The performance of its most threatening uses is very much dependent on the condition of the RF it is used on.
Thoughts: Libra is a wheel to watch, especially if Gravity is banned, but for the time being it seems okay to me.
SA165 (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Oppose (May Change in Future)~Th!nk's thoughts
Quote:Pros:Disagagree as well. If the disk tracks are illegal, this one should definitely be as well. This is my favorite track for standard in the BB-10 right now great stamina on EWD/WD... in normal mode can rock on it's side and stand back up. and in attack mode there is great defense where it will grab the tornado ridge if it gets hit. I feel this track is already banned for a reason and is more powerful than the standard disk tracks.
-A very cool track
-Good for all three types
-Gives defense a boost without making them completely destroy attack (Libra anti-attack on the other hand...)
-Rebalances right spin attack vs left spin attack slightly
Cons
-MF-H Libra SA165RF (ZGA Mode) is pretty ridiculously broken (think MF Libra CH120RF in its time, maybe a bit scarier even).
-Gravity also benefits too much from access to it.
-If RDF is introduced, further problems arise.
-Does wreck LTAC, though really using anything so low that this is a problem (CH120 is tall enough to be fine) is already struggling with 230 anyway.
Conditions for future support: Libra, Gravity, RDF, EWD, B
Thoughts: Maybe in the future, but definitely not this time around.
RDF (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Oppose (May Change in Future)~Th!nk's thoughts
Quote:Pros:Disagree as well. RDF is one of the most balanced tips there is with surprisingly good stamina. If this was made legal I might agree with banning all left spinning beys.
-Opens up a number of interesting customization possibilities
-Reigns in Left Spin's advantage over Right Spin for Attack types slightly
Cons
-Only worsens the spin stealer issue, as it results in spin stealers which completely wreck even anti-attack (if gravity is banned this is less of a problem, but still an issue)
-In my opinion it's too strong defensively for the format (though less so with a bit of wear), especially as it can be weak launched with little risk and is already a popular defense tip (meaning people will be more inclined to use it).
Thoughts: RDF is too strong at this point, both defensively and in the fact it can be exploited pretty severely by Gravity (and despite its poor survival, I'd not be surprised if LDG could make some use of it). If we ban Gravity, we could look at giving it a trial run in the future, but / I just don't think that for all the interesting ways it can be used there's any real good to come of it, especially given how much it will hurt confidence in attack types.
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I was going to link that post here, but got distracted. Anyways:
Not sure why you think any of the LDragos are better for spin stealing than Gravity, even MLD isn't. It outspins nothing that gravity does not (in fact, I vaguely recall playing the two off against each other and gravity winning) at the expense of being much easier to KO. Lightning is too aggressive and also very easily knocked out by defense due to its light weight, and Metal Fury LDD/LDG both have awful balance, apparently. Do you not have the Stamina version of Perseus, as otherwise I'm not sure how you'd come to that conclusion?
As for the spin stealer thing, too focussed on broken/not broken instead of what their legality is holding back - that's the mindset for standard, not here, at least as I see it. Anyway, spin stealers are harder to KO than regular stamina (as they can be weak launched), and they outspin exactly the same things, aside from perhaps regular stamina wheels on F230CF which judging by the other formats doesn't seem like a successful standard stamina setup and would therefore be an inferior choice to attack types. B: D and EWD don't outspin regular stamina wheels on EWD (which limits them to ~170 height and down as EWD is horrendous on tall tracks), but apparently F230 is very much capable of doing that, leaving the entire stamina type as wholly inferior to it.
Basically, you end up with Gravity and MLD and 100/CH120/D125EWD, B: D and F230CF/GCF as your whole stamina CC list instead of Scythe, Duo, Earth, Burn and Virgo's 5 Minute Mold (the latter three hanging on mostly because of LTSC being useful in the format), on 85/90/100/W145/TH170/230 and some other things like SR200TB or whatever, and a massive range of tips. And, as a bonus, there are also a lot less tiresomely long matches with the latter group. And because of the height interplay, a few lesser wheels such as flame, thermal and killer become viable for stamina if they get an advantageous height matchup (mostly against Earth/Burn/Virgo, but still).
Not sure why you think any of the LDragos are better for spin stealing than Gravity, even MLD isn't. It outspins nothing that gravity does not (in fact, I vaguely recall playing the two off against each other and gravity winning) at the expense of being much easier to KO. Lightning is too aggressive and also very easily knocked out by defense due to its light weight, and Metal Fury LDD/LDG both have awful balance, apparently. Do you not have the Stamina version of Perseus, as otherwise I'm not sure how you'd come to that conclusion?
As for the spin stealer thing, too focussed on broken/not broken instead of what their legality is holding back - that's the mindset for standard, not here, at least as I see it. Anyway, spin stealers are harder to KO than regular stamina (as they can be weak launched), and they outspin exactly the same things, aside from perhaps regular stamina wheels on F230CF which judging by the other formats doesn't seem like a successful standard stamina setup and would therefore be an inferior choice to attack types. B: D and EWD don't outspin regular stamina wheels on EWD (which limits them to ~170 height and down as EWD is horrendous on tall tracks), but apparently F230 is very much capable of doing that, leaving the entire stamina type as wholly inferior to it.
Basically, you end up with Gravity and MLD and 100/CH120/D125EWD, B: D and F230CF/GCF as your whole stamina CC list instead of Scythe, Duo, Earth, Burn and Virgo's 5 Minute Mold (the latter three hanging on mostly because of LTSC being useful in the format), on 85/90/100/W145/TH170/230 and some other things like SR200TB or whatever, and a massive range of tips. And, as a bonus, there are also a lot less tiresomely long matches with the latter group. And because of the height interplay, a few lesser wheels such as flame, thermal and killer become viable for stamina if they get an advantageous height matchup (mostly against Earth/Burn/Virgo, but still).
I have never seen success with Gravity as a spin stealer, I'm serious on that. I'm not a tester and never have tested it vs. L-Dragos, but I have seen it in competition and it always seems to fall over before the other bey stops spinning. I know I beat it with mf earth aquario 85cs on Saturday when it was on a gcf.
As with your list of stamina beys, maybe it's just our meta up here. but Earth, Burn were used far more often than Gravity, and Duo and Scythe weren't as common of parts but used and MLD never made an appearance even though everybody had it.
The regional meta games might play a bigger part of dominant parts than testers want to believe.
As with your list of stamina beys, maybe it's just our meta up here. but Earth, Burn were used far more often than Gravity, and Duo and Scythe weren't as common of parts but used and MLD never made an appearance even though everybody had it.
The regional meta games might play a bigger part of dominant parts than testers want to believe.
Tournaments often don't represent the full spectrum of a format. Perhaps your entire area (barring one or two players) just doesn't test enough or pay enough attention to keep an eye on things that would've won them the tournament with ease, or at least perhaps the fact you're not a tester (i.e. you haven't tried this stuff, whereas I have) is the source of our disagreement?
A bunch of those things that weren't common would've taken basically the whole winning combos list bar the attack types, which were apparently struggling with the cold weather anyway, had their owners used them well enough/in the right combination (I mean heck, MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK) R145RF alone could solo that whole list if launched with reasonable consistency). It's hard to tell though without knowing every combo in the tournament, but either way your tournament's winning combinations list indicates there were a lot of things missing or not being used correctly...
A bunch of those things that weren't common would've taken basically the whole winning combos list bar the attack types, which were apparently struggling with the cold weather anyway, had their owners used them well enough/in the right combination (I mean heck, MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK) R145RF alone could solo that whole list if launched with reasonable consistency). It's hard to tell though without knowing every combo in the tournament, but either way your tournament's winning combinations list indicates there were a lot of things missing or not being used correctly...
(Dec. 23, 2013 2:53 PM)th!nk Wrote: Tournaments often don't represent the full spectrum of a format. Perhaps your entire area (barring one or two players) just doesn't test enough or pay enough attention to keep an eye on things that would've won them the tournament with ease, or at least perhaps the fact you're not a tester (i.e. you haven't tried this stuff, while I have) is the source of our disagreement?Yes agreed. Well I guess Wyatt V2 and I will be doing some testing this winter break. I've always just gone off of what I've seen work in tournaments. IE: when Panasher developed LDD BD145RDF and it popped up everywhere. or when Yuko developed ___Dragoon F230CF and made people cry.