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MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)

Jan. 06, 2014  9:02 PM
 
With what's going on in Limited advanced forums: I 100% would like to ban Scythe. I admit, it's was my favorite wheel, but I think it needs banned.

RB: It'd be great to try this out on Bakushin and Earth.

I don't think Gravity needs banned. They're counters. It's just people like it. Though, maybe it'd be good to try it for fun.

Apart from that I agree 80% on what Ingulit tinks.
Jan. 06, 2014  9:07 PM
 
I'm also 100% for banning Scythe. Too
OP.
Jan. 06, 2014  9:15 PM
 
I'm about 90% against Scythe.

I think if some more parts and combinations are tested, they'd have a chance of defeating certain Scythe combos, but at this point, its ridiculously over powered.

However, at this point, I'm in favor of it being banned, as long as more tests are conducted, before a choice is made.
Jan. 06, 2014  9:31 PM
 
Woooo working on testing don't even have it posted in either thread yet. Scythe isn't broken...
MF-H Libra 85RF vs. MF-H Scythe Peg II CH120RF
Libra: 15 wins (10 OS, 5 KO)
Scythe: 5 wins (2 OS, 3 KO)
Scythe Win %: 25%

There is nothing in this format that they're aren't legit counters too IMO. I hate seeing more stuff banned unless there becomes a new format between limited and standard that these parts especially wheels banned from limited have a use in...
Jan. 06, 2014  9:46 PM
 
(Jan. 06, 2014  9:31 PM)Coach Wrote: Woooo working on testing don't even have it posted in either thread yet. Scythe isn't broken...
MF-H Libra 85RF vs. MF-H Scythe Peg II CH120RF
Libra: 15 wins (10 OS, 5 KO)
Scythe: 5 wins (2 OS, 3 KO)
Scythe Win %: 25%

There is nothing in this format that they're aren't legit counters too IMO. I hate seeing more stuff banned unless there becomes a new format between limited and standard that these parts especially wheels banned from limited have a use in...

Libra was definitely not outspinning Scythe for me in that matchup. Perhaps try cancer instead, unless that PegII is SonoKong? Still didn't feel it was that close but I'll look at this as a priority tomorrow.
Jan. 06, 2014  9:49 PM
 
Um... One counter? I'd like to say, I'm not like "OH, YES, I'VE SEEN IT'S AMAZING, GREAT, GOOD BAN IT, BAN IT!!" As much as I don't want it to be banned you got to look at it this way: How many kids can get Libra? I know I don't have one. Maybe if we had a couple more counters I might consider it to be "left alone", but if only Libra can do this... I suggest Scythe is banned. It's got use in Defense, Attack, and Stamina. It does look like another Basalt/Hell. So even if we get counters you'd need one that could be easy to get. Also, if RB is coming back it'll boost its Defense alot. For now, to stay on the safe side, I think Scythe should be banned. Just to see how the format will do/Because it gets strong results nearly with everything.
Jan. 06, 2014  9:58 PM
 
It's like you guys are just looking for the next thing to ban... I'm sure there are others that have to be discovered yet... my stamina tests put it at 50/50 with Burn, and I don't even remember who won between it and Duo in my testing but it wasn't a blowout either way and I know Dogman had Duo winning big.
Jan. 06, 2014  10:05 PM
 
(Jan. 06, 2014  9:58 PM)Coach Wrote: It's like you guys are just looking for the next thing to ban... I'm sure there are others that have to be discovered yet... my stamina tests put it at 50/50 with Burn, and I don't even remember who won between it and Duo in my testing but it wasn't a blowout either way and I know Dogman had Duo winning big.

We're not looking at Scythe for stamina. Defensively it wrecks everything not called Gravity and LLD that I've tried so far, and MF-H Scythe PegII CH120RF lacks truly practical counters thus far - those libra tests are interesting but as I said (and this was the main point of my post) they don't match what I've seen myself.

My tests still need to be confirmed by someone else, anyway.
Jan. 06, 2014  10:12 PM
 
I honestly see no fun in banning parts. What fun is beating weak beys? Doesn't that also make the parts you hve spent money on useless. If you can't use them to earn bey points and beat others in tournaments, why do we blade?
Jan. 06, 2014  10:15 PM
 
(Jan. 06, 2014  10:12 PM)Tyoka Wrote: I honestly see no fun in banning parts. What fun is beating weak beys? Doesn't that also make the parts you hve spent money on useless. If you can't use them to earn bey points and beat others in tournaments, why do we blade?

What?

When a part becomes too overpowered, it (may) become banned. A part/combination (let's say Genbull Dragoon F230 GCF) that beats nearly every other Beyblade, isn't really fun. It basically means people with not a lot of skill can sweep through tournaments. Tongue_out

If the overpowered part (say Basalt, for example) was banned, then the "weak" Beyblade, suddenly wouldn't be weak.

That's one of the points of Limited Format, man. Banning 4D and Zero-G wheels that would be overpowered in this situation, so older wheels can be used to make new combinations.

Tongue_out
Jan. 06, 2014  10:16 PM
 
Hello, this is a limited format. If we didn't have banned parts, why would it be called Limited. Some beys are hard to defeat, but yes, then can be beaten. Limited is for making it easy for players aswell who don't have this ZG stuff. Please, reed why we got limited before you post.
Jan. 06, 2014  10:20 PM
 
(Jan. 06, 2014  9:46 PM)th!nk Wrote:
(Jan. 06, 2014  9:31 PM)Coach Wrote: Woooo working on testing don't even have it posted in either thread yet. Scythe isn't broken...
MF-H Libra 85RF vs. MF-H Scythe Peg II CH120RF
Libra: 15 wins (10 OS, 5 KO)
Scythe: 5 wins (2 OS, 3 KO)
Scythe Win %: 25%

There is nothing in this format that they're aren't legit counters too IMO. I hate seeing more stuff banned unless there becomes a new format between limited and standard that these parts especially wheels banned from limited have a use in...

Libra was definitely not outspinning Scythe for me in that matchup. Perhaps try cancer instead, unless that PegII is SonoKong? Still didn't feel it was that close but I'll look at this as a priority tomorrow.

Scythe wasn't close in my tests and my Peg 2 was Hasbro... Libra was able to do the same it did to Gravity CH120 get under it and destabilize it.
But serious there is a whole competitive series (4D's) already banned, Hell and Basalt. Why don't we just create a format where we can only use thermal and flame?.. sorry getting irritated with all the banning of any decent bey. And that's what I call Scythe DECENT, not by any means dominant...
Jan. 06, 2014  10:24 PM
 
After talking with th!nk about the ban list update schedule, we've come up with an revised update schedule system that we think is pretty good:
  1. Every two months there will be a scheduled ban list update, which will be focused on banning or unbanning parts with the goal of ensuring the largest number of parts are viable or to experiment with banning/unbanning something for awhile. This is the same as before, but with one exception:
  2. If a part is shown by enough people's test results to be not just good, but definitely broken in Limited, then that part might get emergency banned outside of the bimonthly schedule.
The idea is that ideally all the broken parts for Limited are always banned, such that the bimonthly updates can focus on experimentation, and such that we don't have to deal with broken parts for a full two months before we are able to act on it.

One of the goals of this format is to have as small a ban list as possible, so even if something gets emergency banned, it's not entirely off the table for being unbanned in the future! We just need to make sure we don't have oppressive parts in the format so that the largest number of parts are competitive.

(I'm going to post this both in the Advanced forum and in the public discussion so that everyone, especially tournament hosts, is aware of this change)
Jan. 06, 2014  10:25 PM
 
I get what you mean Coach, but I think we need more tests. How come everytime I use Scythe I nearly, almost, get high results. Burn 85MF can tornado-stall it in Stamina and Defense, but it hasn't really had much testing. If we can provide a few more conuters, it might be OK to keep it on.
Jan. 06, 2014  10:34 PM
 
Coach, there's a distinction between 'good' and "renders all but itself and like two other wheels non-viable". You will note that my stance on Gravity has changed - in no small part due to agreeing with you that usage will probably subside slightly, and that's the only wheel so far aside from Scythe we've looked at banning, and I've explained my position on everything else has been no different to the core aims of this format - we do want to try to increase the number of viable parts, which as far as I know generally focusses on metal wheels (which banning everything but flame and thermal would definitely not do), however Scythe is very different to these things, at least based on my testing of it, and seeing as I've now seen most of what limited's parts list has to offer, I'm not too fussed by anything aside from Scythe, personally.

So yeah, most of us only think a single wheel should go *if that*, and even then as I've said, still need to see if my results can be reproduced or somehow I'm just lucky to have Super-Scythe The Magical WonderWheel Capable Of Destroying Entire Formats In A Single Combo (that would be pretty cool, though I'd feel kinda bad about it).

Also, as Ingulit has said, bans are not necessarily permanent. If people find a counter to it or something that counters it and it works and is generally successful after it's banned then it could totally get unbanned. My main concern is new people coming into limited for the first time seeing a very one sided format that is not well balanced at all - in these early days, personally I'd like to be a little cautious. At least with gravity, the combos it uses are generally aggressive or easy to KO, whereas a number of scythe's major ones are just straight defense or whatever (and the aggression of the format has received a good amount of praise).
Jan. 06, 2014  11:46 PM
 
Not sure if this should go here, but just a question. If something beats everything else except lets say 1 combo would that be needed to ban?
Jan. 07, 2014  1:20 PM
 
Ok with the talk of unbanning. How bout SP230? The track is quite worthless in standard. Maybe just a trial period if the ban list is going to constantly be adapting to what's going on.
And to be honest I don't feel there is a need to ban the defensive tips; RB & RS for sure. Not sure of RDF... with no +47 gram wheels like Basalt I think RS just makes Earth or Bakushin a sitting duck where with RSF it can shift around the stadium and makes it harder to get a clean hit.
Jan. 07, 2014  1:31 PM
 
Fake tests (Click to View)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
Jan. 07, 2014  3:33 PM
 
(Jan. 07, 2014  1:20 PM)Coach Wrote: Ok with the talk of unbanning. How bout SP230? The track is quite worthless in standard. Maybe just a trial period if the ban list is going to constantly be adapting to what's going on.
And to be honest I don't feel there is a need to ban the defensive tips; RB & RS for sure. Not sure of RDF... with no +47 gram wheels like Basalt I think RS just makes Earth or Bakushin a sitting duck where with RSF it can shift around the stadium and makes it harder to get a clean hit.

I gave SP230 a shot, thing wrecks attack types. Will get around to posting tests on that in time.

Your experience with RS goes against everything I've experienced with it, and everything I've heard of others experiencing with it. I stand by my previous explanations as to why it's banned.

Oh, did want to say that after playing around with MF-H Libra 85RF more, yeah it can outspin Scythe, though it's pretty close, if the Scythe user had a slightly stronger launch or their RF had slightly better stamina, Libra might run into some trouble. Still, probably the most viable counter to it I've seen yet.
Jan. 07, 2014  4:38 PM
 
RDF will wreck this meta so horribly that no one will ever play again...

I'm serious. It would literally be that bad. Gravity Perseus Stamina ver. 85RDF would completely wreck everything, hands down. It would be the most ridiculously broken custom of all time. That would be the one and only custom anybody ever played.

Here in NC (where some of our players are used to spamming broken stuff), in BB-10 events, almost every match is played with Dragooon F230 or Dragooon RDF.

Please nobody unban RDF... please. Unhappy


Onto another subject... I've stated this before in the Zero-G/Standard forums, but I honestly think, especially with Gravity running around now, F230 should be banned. I still believe it to be ban-worthy in all formats, and I have watched it first-hand wreck NC's metagame and leave it smoldering on the floor. We lost multiple players solely for the fact that F230 was completely stomping everything.

Regardless of whether or not you think it's ban-worthy in Zero-G/Standard, I think we can all agree that it is certainly unhealthy, especially with a dual-spin metal wheel to utilize it.

I honestly think it is an absolute priority to ban it as soon as is physically possible. MF-H Gravity Perseus F230GCF is absolutely and undoubtedly broken from my perspective, and beyond unhealthy for the format.


I took like an hour to read this whole thread through, and I honestly think that now would be a good time to see Gravity T125GCF to eat dirt. It is, honestly, virtually uncounterable without RDF in this format to produce a Defender with high precession.

Here's my proposal: The problematic Gravity customs I see right now are Gravity F230CF/GCF, and Gravity _125CF/GCF.


I honestly don't think that Gravity EWD is a problem. It's Gravity on a stamina setup. Gimme an "R" gimme an "E" gimme a "C," "O," "I," "L!" What does that spell? RECOIL!!!! Even when you weak launch, it's just not that intimidating at all to me. I went up against plenty of Gravity spin-steal at my last tournament, and I complete wiped it out with a simple Attack type and a sliding shoot.

Plus, Libra/Earth LTSC will almost undoubtedly win against it for the most part.


I also don't think Gravity Attack is a problem at all. The only thing that's different about it from other Attackers is that it can go left and right. So what? Sure, that'll give you versatility against all 3 different heights of Defense/Stamina, but TBH Gravity isn't the highest-powered Attack wheel in the format. Cosmic and Beat are, with Lightning actually slightly ahead of Gravity in terms of pure smash IMO (notice that's my opinion from my testing... most people say they're about even). It's not particularly high-powered (heck, I actually get equivalent results against mid-height Defense/Stamina with Vulcan LTAC), it's just versatile, which isn't bad as long as it's countered relatively easily.

LTDC/MTDC will beat it. Hate to break it to you people, but you ain't gonna be hitting 55-60% against RSF Defense in a tournament. It'll honestly be more like 20-30%, maybe 40% percent if you get particularly lucky.


Now, onto my proposal. How do we get rid of the super overpowered Gravity customs, while being able to keep the (arguably) not-so dominant ones (again, that there is a product of my personal opinion. I'm pretty confident with my idea, but other people think differently. I would get a second opinion after reading this, since I'm obviously biased)? Well, this is gonna sound a little crazy, and please nobody blow up in my face over this, as I think it's a long shot and it probably won't happen, but:

Spoiler (Click to View)


With the recent testing of Scythe and R145 on Defense along with Bakushin LTDC, I myself am actually starting to feel that unbanning RB would be unnecessary. I mean, come on... we all know you're not gonna hit 50% that you get against RSF in a tournament. It just doesn't happen like that. I'm pretty much neutral for now, but leaning a little tiny bit toward keeping it banned. It is so close, however, that I could feel myself in full support of RB within the next 20 minutes, so I'd call myself neutral. XD
Jan. 07, 2014  5:50 PM
 
RDF: GP85RDF gets outspun by EWD, from what I've tried, but it's also just generally a pain for most of the format to deal with. Also with Metal Fury LDG being one of the heaviest wheels in the format, any unban on it would need to see that and a few other things tested sufficiently, at least for me to not strongly oppose it. I'd do testing to show RDF whitewashing attack, but mine recently wore to the point the plastic scrapes too often, so it wouldn't represent its actual abilities.

F230: I don't like it either, and would much rather see it go than Gravity, but I wouldn't call it broken, just very unhealthy for the format. Once you've seen Scythe in action, you'll probably come to understand broken in a whole new light haha.

Gravity T125CF/GCF: I still have self KO trouble with it so I do kinda think that it might end up not being a problem for the same reason MF MLD CH120XF never saw much use - it just doesn't feel safe to use.

Quote:I honestly don't think that Gravity EWD is a problem. It's Gravity on a stamina setup. Gimme an "R" gimme an "E" gimme a "C," "O," "I," "L!" What does that spell? RECOIL!!!! Even when you weak launch, it's just not that intimidating at all to me. I went up against plenty of Gravity spin-steal at my last tournament, and I complete wiped it out with a simple Attack type and a sliding shoot.

Plus, Libra/Earth LTSC will almost undoubtedly win against it for the most part.
Not from what I've seen they don't, unless they use EWD, but maybe we used different tracks or whatever on gravity. As for how easy it is to KO, given perseus (stamina) and weak launching, it's no easier than the stamina combos it completely replaces, that's the main reason it replaces them (also a little less troubled by height matchups but yeah) at least from what I can see, less of a risk of being taken out by an aggressively launched defense custom.


Quote:I also don't think Gravity Attack is a problem at all. The only thing that's different about it from other Attackers is that it can go left and right. So what? Sure, that'll give you versatility against all 3 different heights of Defense/Stamina, but TBH Gravity isn't the highest-powered Attack wheel in the format. Cosmic and Beat are, with Lightning actually slightly ahead of Gravity in terms of pure smash IMO (notice that's my opinion from my testing... most people say they're about even). It's not particularly high-powered (heck, I actually get equivalent results against mid-height Defense/Stamina with Vulcan LTAC), it's just versatile, which isn't bad as long as it's countered relatively easily.

LTDC/MTDC will beat it. Hate to break it to you people, but you ain't gonna be hitting 55-60% against RSF Defense in a tournament. It'll honestly be more like 20-30%, maybe 40% percent if you get particularly lucky.

Do you have the Attack version of Perseus - most of what you're saying sounds like you don't - you can take a look at my tests on gravity and lightning in the random thoughts thread, shows that gp(atk) works a little better. I got my beat yesterday and it has power, but only uses it about 15% of the time because 85% of its perimeter is round walls that do no damage - this is the same problem I had with the original when people raved about it, and while I've been in the minority both times from what I can tell, I just can't see how people are getting anything resembling consistency out of it. Gravity, given Perseus (ATK) consists almost entirely of effective contact points, with more than enough power against same heights, taller opponents, and even various lower opponents to KO a significant proportion of the format, which I'm still struggling to do with most other things I've used.

Also, Vulcan LTAC were traditionally exceptionally good against mid-height defense/stamina - it has a height advantage and is also at a good height for the wheel itself. That gravity can do that at the same height is no mean feat.

The big thing about the dual spin is that unlike lightning, you can just use right spin against things that are likely to be weak launched against you (people still seem to forget that you can weak launch right spin defense customs against left spin attack), while also being able to deal with RSF using left spin (there's almost no crossover between things gravity can't ko in left if they weak launch and things it can't KO in right).

However, you raise an excellent point about attack being much less threatening in tournament situations, and I would definitely encourage people to take a shot at launching gravity attack combos first, then launching defense, and seeing how reliably gravity can actually KO in that situation and how often they just straight up self-KO. Tournament situations aren't *quite* that hard but attack is still a big risk there and people do need to recognize that when looking at both attack and defense testing.

Either way, with the looming introduction of RB, I would strongly suggest leaving Gravity be for a little longer just to get a better idea of RB's impact. It'll also let us see any impact of our further testing of things like Chrome Wheel attack and things having time to get to people, things like Beat and Cosmic.

Quote:Now, onto my proposal. How do we get rid of the super overpowered Gravity customs, while being able to keep the (arguably) not-so dominant ones (again, that there is a product of my personal opinion. I'm pretty confident with my idea, but other people think differently. I would get a second opinion after reading this, since I'm obviously biased)? Well, this is gonna sound a little crazy, and please nobody blow up in my face over this, as I think it's a long shot and it probably won't happen, but:

Let's ban CF/GCF! I mean, seriously, look at what those two particular variations of customs have in common! Without GCF/CF, they're completely useless. Heck, if we got rid of those, we wouldn't have to ban F230 or Gravity (again, depending on what your opinion is on Gravity attackers particularly). The dominant customs would be completely crippled, while still allowing the viable ones to be used, making for a much more interesting game IMO.

Whaddaya think guys?

I like your spirit, and I actually considered proposing this myself but figured it'd make people take the rest of my decisions much less seriously so I left it be. I'll bring this up in the advanced forum if they don't comment on it before I get around to posting (mostly waiting to see if my scythe results can be reproduced). However, a lot of the reason people want gravity banned is because they feel it is flat out better than the other Attack Wheels, so I wouldn't get your hopes up.
I'd totally support it though, unless Scythe remains legal, as Gravity D125GCF does pretty good against it and if scythe doesn't go then removing things that can beat it isn't something I can bring myself to support, even if it's good for the format in the long run.


Quote: With the recent testing of Scythe and R145 on Defense along with Bakushin LTDC, I myself am actually starting to feel that unbanning RB would be unnecessary. I mean, come on... we all know you're not gonna hit 50% that you get against RSF in a tournament. It just doesn't happen like that. I'm pretty much neutral for now, but leaning a little tiny bit toward keeping it banned. It is so close, however, that I could feel myself in full support of RB within the next 20 minutes, so I'd call myself neutral. XD

Considering what you've said about how much harder attack is to use at tournaments, and thinking about R145 as well, presume for a moment we ban Scythe. You'd support unbanning RB in that case?

I kinda feel like R145, Bakushin, and Libra Anti-Attack are already enough, that defense doesn't need much more, but RB's impact may be mitigated by potential impracticality. I'm happy to give it a shot for two months with gravity in the format and scythe out of the format, that'd let us see what it does without skewing against attack/towards defense respectively.
Jan. 07, 2014  10:53 PM
 
My 2 cents.

Unbanning RDF: NO, NO , NO. This thing is one of the best defence tip available and is quite versatile.
Banning F230cf/gcf: I think this thing could prove a problem (mainly left spin, like gravity, dragooon and meteo).
Banning EWD: it's not really that much of a problem.
Banning B : D: it's weakness against attack takes away any game breaking capability IMO.
Banning libra: I don't think it's really game breaking with wyvang crawling around.
Banning scythe: well, I'm pretty sure this might become game breaking.
Unbanning hades: its attack ability seems not as good as wyvang.
Unbanning RB: I'm honestly not very familiar with this part.
Unbanning RS : No, it has really horrible stamina, but it's defence might be game breaking.
Unbanning kreis: No, to heavy.
Unbanning omega: I could see this being unbanned, after seeing some tests it might not be game breaking Smile.
Banning gravity: I know it is extremely versatile, but I don't think it's that bad right now :\.

NOTE: this is just my opinion.
Jan. 07, 2014  11:02 PM
 
(Jan. 07, 2014  10:53 PM)DRAGON KING Wrote: My 2 cents.

Unbanning RDF: NO, NO , NO. This thing is one of the best defence tip available and is quite versatile.
Banning F230cf/gcf: I think this thing could prove a problem (mainly left spin, like gravity, dragooon and meteo).
Banning EWD: it's not really that much of a problem.
Banning B : D: it's weakness against attack takes away any game breaking capability IMO.
Banning libra: I don't think it's really game breaking with wyvang crawling around.
Banning scythe: well, I'm pretty sure this might become game breaking.
Unbanning hades: a non-BD145 Hades has more recoil than metal fury scythe and its attack ability seems not as good as wyvang.
Unbanning RB: I'm honestly not very familiar with this part.
Unbanning RS : No, it has really horrible stamina, but it's defence might be game breaking.
Unbanning kreis: No, to heavy.
Unbanning omega: I could see this being unbanned, after seeing some tests it might not be game breaking Smile.
Banning gravity: I know it is extremely versatile, but I don't think it's that bad right now :\.

NOTE: this is just my opinion.

I really don't think Hell should be unbanned. As Dark previously stated, it does do generally well on 230 CS. Even without BD145, it does have its uses.

In this format, I don't see F230 GCF being banned, as, at least for now, isn't being used that much. I can see Meteo F230 GCF getting KO's pretty easily due to its weight. I haven't heard of Dragoon being (widely) used with it yet, and Gravity with it has its fair share of counters.

Also, about Hell, where did you get that it has a much recoil as Scythe? I may have missed something, but I haven't heard of that, haha. Tongue_out
Jan. 07, 2014  11:22 PM
 
Leone19 I was mainly speaking of gravity f230cf/gcf since it is multi-directional meaning it could spin steal from left or right spin beys. Plus I've seen it placing in a BUNCH of limited tournaments.

I must be wrong about hades, I edited it. But i don't think it's as good as scythe :\
Jan. 07, 2014  11:31 PM
 
Most people forget that Hades is a whopping 39.5 grams, which as we all know is quite heavy for this format. Hell 230CS is also qute good from what I've heard, so yeah, it should definitely stay banned.
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