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MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)

Dec. 23, 2013  3:05 PM
 
I'm just gonna say I agree with everything th!nk says. From my testsing... This will help limited more. If Gravity is gone, We could see how a format would do with out it. I also think RB needs to come back. I've only seen RSF on Defence and CS and think that'll help. Everyone has a opinion this is just mine.
Dec. 23, 2013  3:08 PM
 
(Dec. 23, 2013  2:57 PM)Coach Wrote:
(Dec. 23, 2013  2:53 PM)th!nk Wrote: Tournaments often don't represent the full spectrum of a format. Perhaps your entire area (barring one or two players) just doesn't test enough or pay enough attention to keep an eye on things that would've won them the tournament with ease, or at least perhaps the fact you're not a tester (i.e. you haven't tried this stuff, while I have) is the source of our disagreement?
Yes agreed. Well I guess Wyatt V2 and I will be doing some testing this winter break. I've always just gone off of what I've seen work in tournaments. IE: when Panasher developed LDD BD145RDF and it popped up everywhere. or when Yuko developed ___Dragoon F230CF and made people cry.

Good, I'm sure we'd all benefit from that. If the two of you get time, you'd be fairly uniquely positioned to provide some solid attack vs attack and attack vs anti attack/rf defense tests with two players.

Yes, a lot of people do that, though if too many do so too much, whole regions can get some severe tunnel vision happening until someone shakes it up.

And yes, many good customs are borne of people preparing for tournaments, as having something you understand better than anyone else, that no one is quite sure how to counter, is an immeasurable advantage, so there's a lot of motivation and reward for doing so. So much we had to make reporting winning combos legal so the community as a whole could actually benefit from it.


Oh, I should also add: Keep in mind that bans and unbans could be overturned (especially with a trial reintroduction). I do agree with you, Coach, that a lot of gravity's popularity has to do with comfort and accessibility, but with it present people will take a very long time to adapt and I'd rather people trying limited for the first time as many will be right now see a hugely varied format rather than just one wheel in 5-10 different combos, and that could be coloring my opinion slightly. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to giving Gravity a second chance in future on a trial basis, once people have adapted to other attack types, though I do still think it is just too well-rounded compared to the other Attack wheels and that as a result, it would only end up being banned again (but Gravity being my favourite wheel in the entirety of MFB, I'd absolutely love to be proven wrong on that, and if people find particularly advantageous setups for its successors then it could very well happen!)
Dec. 23, 2013  5:44 PM
 
RB -> Legal
Strong Support~Th!nk's Thoughts
Quote:Pros
- Provides a third 'traditional' defense tip without being too powerful/oppressive or exploitable.
- Slight boost to defense types, maybe.
- Probably shouldn't have been banned in the first place (sorry, my bad!)

Cons
- It IS slightly better than RSF, but not by a significant margin
I disagree with this statement. RB will be the most used Defense type tip. Not only is it an amazing LTDC tip, it has pretty decent stamina for a Defense type tip. Don't legalize it.

Gravity -> Banned
Moderate Support~Th!nk's thoughts
Quote:Pros:
-Gravity saturates usage statistics aside from areas where Attack is very unsuccessful (though gravity spin stealers will probably show up in those soon enough)
-Gravity is arguably and is the strongest wheel of two different types (Attack and also Spin Stealers (and maybe Stamina as a whole)).
-Banning it will increase variation in attack wheels used, as its successors are much more evenly balanced with respect to each other
-Is somewhat polarising for the format as an Attack type wheel, due to good performance against other Attack wheels (which means banning itand being hard to stop without other very powerful customs (MF-H Libra CH120RF).
-Spin Stealers become a lot more balanced without Gravity, which will allow the rather large list of competitive stamina customs to see some use.

Cons
-Is a hit to Attack, and Attack only seemed overpowered in North Carolina's tournament
-Gravity is one of the more interesting wheels in the format in terms of the balance type setups it makes possible
-It's not really broken, though it definitely cuts it close, but then brokeness isn't necessary for a part to be banned in limited (which is one of the key differences between Limited and Standard).

Thoughts: This will probably depend on people's opinions on the direction we should be taking with Limited's banlist, but I personally think the format would be improved in terms of number of viable parts, tournament combo variety and overall enjoyability with Gravity banned, and see little cost in doing so, and so I would support a ban.
Honestly, I don't see why everyone is thinking Gravity is near to broken. As Coach said, there are good unsynchromed combos out there that make Gravity look like trash. Ex. In Canada MSF-H Samurai Wyvang H145RSF and in Niles, MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang DF105LRF. I want Gravity to stay, but at the same time, I don't mind it.

Spin Stealer Nerf: F230, BGrin and EWD (Legal -> Banned)
Moderate Support if Gravity remains legal/Weak to Moderate Support pending further observation if Gravity is banned/Weak Support for F230 and Oppose for BGrin/EWD if RDF is unbanned.~Th!nk's thoughts
Quote:Pros:
-Spin Stealers are very limited in terms of variety compared to what they render pointless.
-Makes the rather varied Stamina type worthwhile (or only EWD Stamina types, if only F230 is banned), making a number of parts competitive or viable (FS, for example, is not actually a bad stamina tip by any means, but it cannot handle spin stealers)
-Removes a lot of Gravity's dominance without hurting attack directly (will make defense more viable, hurting attack indirectly, however)
-Doesn't completely destroy Spin Stealers as EDS and WD etc still work against Defense
-Makes Defense more worthwhile and rewards skill with the type (aggro launching vs stamina)
-Makes tournaments more enjoyable, seeing as Spin Steal matches take a long time and there have been complaints about this.
-A step towards making SA165 balanced in Limited.

Cons
-May be best to see if this is necessary with Gravity banned if that happens
-F230 is a very interesting part, but we probably want to avoid a complex ban (on F230 with CF or GCF)
-Some would argue Spin Stealer dominance over stamina is valid based on previous generations
-If RDF is legalised, removing EWD is a really bad idea.
-Again, a case where something isn't so much broken as it is bad/unhealthy for the format.

Thoughts: I don't expect this to happen this time around (especially as a ban on Gravity could rebalance things somewhat though anything more than making EWD Stamina viable is unlikely), and imagine most of you are questioning my sanity right now, however I do feel it is in the best interests of the format, given they basically outclass stamina entirely (barring EWD users (which is very bad for tall tracks) in the case of EWD and BGrin).
No, no, no, no. These things are no problem at all. You can KO these with such ease. In Niles, I faced Gravity F230GCF, and I used my unsynchromed combo, KOed it 3-0. So no, don't ban it
Libra (Legal -> Banned)
Moderate Oppose (May Change in Future)~Th!nks Thoughts
Quote:Pros:
-Libra is significantly heavier than the rest of the format
-Stronger than I initially thought, now I have a good RF
-MF-H Libra CH120RF is definitely one of the format's best combos
-Its presence significantly decreases the viability of a sizeable number of attack wheels (mostly lighter ones, most noticeably Pegasis, which is good enough to be considered 'competitive' if Libra isn't common in the area)
-Banning it is a big step towards SA165 becoming legal, though Libra is more important IMO.

Cons:
-Removing Libra allows the stronger attack types (especially gravity) to KO nearly the entire format.
-Its combinations do not seem to actually be broken yet, though this should be watched closely if Gravity is banned.
-Even with the sizeable hype behind it, Libra has not seen overwhelming popularity (though this could change once everyone gets their BB-96's for Christmas).
-The performance of its most threatening uses is very much dependent on the condition of the RF it is used on.

Thoughts: Libra is a wheel to watch, especially if Gravity is banned, but for the time being it seems okay to me.
Honestly, I'm gonna agree with you on watching it. I think that Libra F230CF/GCF would be game-breaking

SA165 (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Oppose (May Change in Future)~Th!nk's thoughts
Quote:Pros:
-A very cool track
-Good for all three types
-Gives defense a boost without making them completely destroy attack (Libra anti-attack on the other hand...)
-Rebalances right spin attack vs left spin attack slightly

Cons
-MF-H Libra SA165RF (ZGA Mode) is pretty ridiculously broken (think MF Libra CH120RF in its time, maybe a bit scarier even).
-Gravity also benefits too much from access to it.
-If RDF is introduced, further problems arise.
-Does wreck LTAC, though really using anything so low that this is a problem (CH120 is tall enough to be fine) is already struggling with 230 anyway.

Conditions for future support: Libra, Gravity, RDF, EWD, BGrin and F230 (at least in combination with CF/GCF) would all need to be banned, at which point it would still be best to only introduce it on a trial basis given its weight and the fact Attack usage relies so heavily on confidence.

Thoughts: Maybe in the future, but definitely not this time around.
I don't really mind it being legal because, really, the only thing it would help is Attack, so I guess legalize it.[/b]
RDF (Banned -> Legal)
Strong Oppose (May Change in Future)~Th!nk's thoughts
Quote:Pros:
-Opens up a number of interesting customization possibilities
-Reigns in Left Spin's advantage over Right Spin for Attack types slightly

Cons
-Only worsens the spin stealer issue, as it results in spin stealers which completely wreck even anti-attack (if gravity is banned this is less of a problem, but still an issue)
-In my opinion it's too strong defensively for the format (though less so with a bit of wear), especially as it can be weak launched with little risk and is already a popular defense tip (meaning people will be more inclined to use it).

Thoughts: RDF is too strong at this point, both defensively and in the fact it can be exploited pretty severely by Gravity (and despite its poor survival, I'd not be surprised if LDG could make some use of it). If we ban Gravity, we could look at giving it a trial run in the future, but / I just don't think that for all the interesting ways it can be used there's any real good to come of it, especially given how much it will hurt confidence in attack types.
YES. In my opinion, Attack is a little OP, so RDF would help this a LOT. I'm still iffy about spin-steal, but other than that, let's do it!
My thoughts in bold Wink
Dec. 23, 2013  5:49 PM
 
Read my response to Coach's post re: spin stealers etc: It's not about how easily they're knocked out by attack types, do you guys think that I don't know that or something? I mean, I know I didn't explicitly say it, but if you're going to respond to an advanced forum post, try to keep in mind it was written for the advanced forum, so generally obvious things are going to be taken as common knowledge and not explicitly stated. One of those things is that when I'm saying spin stealers are bad for the format, I'm probably aware that attack types can knock them out.


So you want to unban RDF but don't want to unban RB because it's overpowered? Have you confused the two? You sound exactly like what my thoughts about it were not having had one, which turned out - when tested - to be completely wrong. It's been tested on low tracks, and in 1v1 vs RSF to check its stamina (it lost by OS more than RSF did).
Dec. 23, 2013  6:06 PM
 
No, I haven't. Honestly, RB is better on LTDCs, while RDF is better with GB145, and most people use some left spin attackers, and some of them have a good amount of recoil and are light, (LLD) but I guess it is too early for RDF.
Dec. 23, 2013  6:21 PM
 
In complete disagreement with Shining. RB is nothing more than a jog ball w grip. RDF is the best balanced tip in the game as well as the best defensive tip in the BB-10. nobody uses rdf as an attacker unless its so worn its illegal. Rdf works from an 85 to a 230. RB doesn't work on LTDC because it allows wobbling causing scraping.
Dec. 23, 2013  7:26 PM
 
This may seem out of no where haha, but I too have strong opinions about the proposed ban list by th!nk.

On RB being legal:

I could see this happening, and I have no problems with it. RB is pretty good, and could help balance out the format as it is right now. Like th!nk said, this is pretty straightforward.

On Gravity being banned:

I say no. If RB is legalized I could see it balancing out Gravity. Its stamina is only moderate, pulling only 25% and 40% against CS and RSF in mirror matchups, respectively, meaning it can stop pure Gravity attack, and if needed go aggro against Gravity Spin Steal, which shouldn't be much of a problem if all goes well (see below).

On EWD, F230, and B:D being banned:

YES PLEASE. These are what make Gravity nearly broken IMHO. EWD is really awesome for Spin Steal as we all know, and Gravity EWD is pretty good from what I've heard. I don't know as much about EWD as the other two, so don't ask me about EWD if looking for an in depth answer haha.
I am really keen on seeing F230 being banned, because Gravity F230(G)CF is a real problem that needs to be dealt with. Just the idea is scary. There isn't anything for this that hasn't really been said before, but just know that my position is go ahead and ban it.
As for B:D, Gravity B:D is also a slight problem, though much easier to KO as we all know haha. Gravity B:D is should be banned however.

On Libra being banned:

I am kinda stuck on this, because its weight does put it ahead of everyone else. What if we did a banning similar to oh-so-many-years-ago in which Libra with a form of Metal Face was banned. That would even out the weight enough to be KO-able by Attack IMO.

On SA165 being legalized:

No. Keep it simple and ban disk tracks. Also, if Libra SA165 RF is what th!nk makes it out to be, then keep it banned.

On RDF legalized:

Not sure. I haven't heard of many Spin Stealer setups outside of BD145 and SA165 for RDF, and RDF's pitiful stamina would even out Attack and Defense. Though I could be wrong.

Hope this all makes sense haha.

tl;dr: legalize RB, keep Gravity, ban EWD, F230, B:D, ban Libra+form of Metal Face, keep SA165 the way it is, and am not sure about RDF.
Dec. 23, 2013  9:05 PM
 
I really do not see what the big deal is about Gravity. Honestly, back when I used to use beys from this format, Gravity was getting stomped on by any good Lightning user or even low track Pegasis combos. Yes, it is good but I would not go as far as to say it is broken or needs to be banned in any way. Attack really needs all it can get as its been deprived of proper usage in the standard format. Nothing really needs to be banned as of yet. We just got into this format and I honestly believe there are a plethora of unexplored options that could beat it out including Libra and even a few other Pre-HWS wheels. I own the vast majority of all the parts usable for this format so I do know what I am talking about here. I just think people should avoid being lazy and just use what works to their own personal needs.

I remember a time when bladers would polish their own style and skill while adjusting their gameplay in competition and sticking to their guns was all they knew. It worked out well and people had way more fun. Now everyone just runs to see who's new top-tier is broken, how they can copy or just make some niche counter for it or its just overall complaining. What some of you may not realize is, some people actually specialize in spin-stealers and continue to make them because that is what they like. That's their style so when you go and ban parts that are already not unbeatable, you take away their options and force them to either conform to what everyone else is using or just lose due to a lack of suitable substitutes. We need to get more testing going on before we even consider banning anything. Just because a few players have been running into some unfortunate events does not mean everyone can or even will be affected. We are talking about combos in a BB-10. KOing a combo if you can't outspin it is more than possible here. We need to focus on the game before we just break down and target individual parts.

I propose we make a three combo limit just like Hasbro and some Takara events promote. That way, you can limit the amount of issues you run into as far as broken combos, parts, etc. Prohibiting wheels from being duplicated in the selection would cut down drastically in a Gravity or any bey type overhaul. If we need to set up some sort of counter-pick options as they do in video game tournaments(this does work), then that should be something we look into. In conclusion, I would rather see that than a "Let's ban every good beyblade because its good and we choose not to find better options because we don't want to test" post every other day on this thread. Coach and th!nk have both made great points and while I agree and disagree on various points they both have shared, I believe we seek a near similar goal. I would hope someone takes this into consideration rather than just reverting back to our previous discussions that we have had here thus far.
Dec. 23, 2013  10:15 PM
 
Yeah, Gravity does need A LOT more testing before you can even consider banning it... In my eyes, this is broken:

Extremely difficult to defeat (as when Basalt first came out along with Libra and Dragoon.)

Little to no counters (ex: as in if rs was unbanned, only rs could defeat it)

Too heavy (with a 50 gram hunk of metal vs 30 gram metal wheels. this does not apply to gravity however.)


It is a new metagame and people do tend to exaggerate things. Just look back on dragoon, people found better things to use.
Dec. 23, 2013  10:42 PM
 
(Dec. 23, 2013  9:05 PM)East Wrote:
Spoiler (Click to View)

No offense but ...

You registered on the 11th of this month. What is your word to the people who have been around forever? :\
Dec. 23, 2013  11:09 PM
 
What I think: RB back, Gravity I'm 50/50, SA165 50/50, Spin steal I agree, Libra agree. That's a bit more of what I think. Tomorrow I'm gonna make my own post like Th!nks and share my thoughts a bit more.

East: Do you even know how limited works ? People are not lazy and I don't take that very light. I'd suggest you get to know the game a littile bit more, before you make posts like that.
Dec. 23, 2013  11:24 PM
 
Rubber Ball: I vote it should be legal. Besides RSF there's not an awesome defense tip. CS is pretty good, but doesn't have the raw defense power like RB.

Gravity: Hmm, the meta is full of this thing, but seeing it gone would probably eliminate some of the competitiveness. I'm 50/50 really.

EWD, F230, BGrin:

EWD: It should stay legal. It's not crazy undefeatable, so it should continue to be legal. I'm 50/50

F230: YES! It's so OP!

BGrin: Attack can be a big part of this format and BGrin won't stand a chance. It can stay legal.

Libra: Without something like BD145 or SA165 I don't see this a big problem like it was in the past.

SA165: No way too OP.

RDF: I'm not sure. RDF isn't going too be too good without SA165 or BD145, but the meta could really use defense. If RB is legalized I don't see why this needs to be banned.
Dec. 24, 2013  1:39 AM
 
RB : I say it should be legal. IIRC the best RB actually ever did was when paired with BD145. It made for an aggressive, yet still safe, Anti-Attack combo for the fact that you could use a very solid defensive wheel like TT Duo and still have decent stamina thanks to RB. With BD145 and SA165 banned I don't see why RB should stay banned when its aggresiveness can finally be actually be capitalized on.

Gravity : I'm on the fence about this. Obviously it's Attack and Spin-Stealing capabilities are great, but with EWD, F230, and SA165 banned, will its lightweight and recoil actually withstand attacks on B:D? And I think that attack types need a wheel like this to do anything in the meta at all in the meta, cause most of everything else I've seen hasn't compared.

EWD : Extremely good at spin-stealing, and yes, very prone to KOs, but I don't support the mind set of "Well since these spin-stealers are so good with EWD, you have no chance of beating them unless you're using EWD too."

F230 : I've never seen it used, personally, but from the results I've seen since I've come back, F230 seems to be a taller and much more diverse B:D.

B:D : As long as Gravity is allowed, Gravity B:D seems like it's just going to be too bad of a problem to keep B:D around. This also somewhat ties into my EWD argument, you face B:D spin-stealers, then you gotta beat it with B:D.

SA165 : Crazy good track for regular Stamina combos, but I've already tested and shown how ridiculous Gravity is on SA165.

Libra : I haven't personally seen much problem with it, but I would rather we introduce the "no MF/MF-H/MF-M(?) paired with LIbra" rule back into the game, rather than outright ban it.

RDF : Like RS, I think RDF has to much pure Defense power. It would pretty much make RSF and RB obsolete along with making Attack types worse than they already are.

Then again I'm not the most versed in the Limited Format so feel free to ignore :333
Dec. 24, 2013  2:38 AM
 
B:D:Should stay attacker surely loves tossing B:D around.

F230CF/GCF: Get rid of that Overpowerness.

RB: I don't mind that coming back.

RDF: 50/50 1st 50% is if new it OP the 2nd 50% is if worn it not as OP possibly an attacker could knock off balance

Libra: if Libra bans there's a only 1-2 MW in defense terms. Mainly giving attacker win the whole limited format

EWD: I really don't care if worn it a problem.

Gravity: Weak against Pegasus attacker.
Dec. 24, 2013  4:16 AM
 
I really do not see how people can really call for these bans/unbans when the format just started and there have only been a handful of tournaments and only a few customs have been tested, none of the customs that have been tested have actually been tested by enough members to actually make anything top tier, everyone is simply going off of the results from the few tournaments.

However, here are my opinions:

Un-Ban RB

I would be okay with this. RB is not going to completely throw out the use of RSF and would simply provide another alternative.

Ban Gravity

This is one where I truly think that there needs to be a lot more testing on the matter. While Gravity has been the most used wheel for Attack and is incredibly successful as a spin stealer, I still think more testing needs to be done. For attack, Cosmic and Wyvang have had great results so far in the little bit of testing that has been shown for them, but as far as the spin stealing that Gravity has been used for, I could see that as being a problem since there is nothing really categorized as Anti Spin Steal in this format(Aside from Gravity). Again, I believe there needs to be more testing on Gravity overall before a ban is made. If a ban happens, it opens up more options for Attack Metal Wheels, but it might result in making Dragoon overpowered.


Ban F230/B : D/EWD

I really do not have an opinion on this since I do not own a F230 or EWD. Again, this is something I would like to see more testing on before a call is made.

Ban Libra

I do not really see a reason to do so now. As th!nk mentioned, it is possible that it could become a devastating force later on, but so far, it has not been popular, so I say leave it for now and maybe try to get some tests in to try to figure out how effective it would be.

Un-Ban SA165

This one I am kind of torn on. I really do not like the idea of it being un-banned at the moment due to how dominant attack types have already proven to be. On the other hand, it could help out Defense and Stamina types. So, maybe at a later point, but I do not see it being a good idea to bring it out now.

Un-Ban RDF

For this one, I say go ahead with making RB legal and see the effects that it brings to the format. Depending on how the addition of RB does, then maybe come back and reconsider introducing RDF into the format, but for now, I say leave it banned.



@*Ginga*
I know you meant no offense to East by your post, but honestly, if it were me, it would be extremely difficult to not take that offensively. Sure he is fairly new to the WBO, but compared to a lot of other newer member, his posts have made it seem like he knows what he is talking about, but at the same time, I am sure he realizes that he is probably going to have to try a little harder to get his opinions recognized by other members. I mean, this thread is here for a reason, for feedback, which is exactly what he gave. Sure, some might disagree with it, some might agree with it, but weather he has been registered here for a week, a month, 2 years, etc., that should not be the factor that makes other members take his posts as relevant or not. The content of the post should be what people look at, not a date. Sorry, to single you out or whatever, but that kind of rubbed me the wrong way when I read it and I really do not want other members to think that since they have not been here for a fairly long time that they are not allowed to voice their opinion.
Dec. 24, 2013  4:22 AM
 
Oh, I wasn't doubting him or anything, he does raise some good points. Just asking him how we can take his word for it considering his join date.
Dec. 24, 2013  4:27 AM
 
(Dec. 24, 2013  4:22 AM)*Ginga* Wrote: Oh, I wasn't doubting him or anything, he does raise some good points. Just asking him how we can take his word for it considering his join date.
Join dates does not matter. If he follows the rules and seeing results from LTD reports and so and making good post. Why not? It would explain about Arupaeo becoming a community member less than a year from his join date.
Dec. 24, 2013  4:39 AM
 
Anyway, everyone is still focused on things being broken as we do in standard rather than the format's health, which is what I feel is the main concern here. Most of the things I supported were based on the fact that those bans would improve the format, not because things are horribly broken. A little radical (maybe even for limited, depending how certain others see it) and hard to get used to perhaps, but please, at least pay it some mind in your responses.

East: You seemed to get the fact I didn't feel these things were broken better than most. My response to your spin-stealer fans thing would be that some people like standard stamina types, which are simply inferior to and defeated by the better spin stealers and won't KO them (barring a collision launch) with all the technique in the world because of weak launching. Without those parts there ARE still spin stealers using EDS and WD, which can outspin defense and balance, while being harder to KO than stamina due to their ability to be weak launched - which means they still have a place without replacing stamina entirely.
As for a three combo limit, the range of combos you can use at a single tournament is one of my favourite things about limited, and I think even three combos would enough to cause problems anyway (MF-M Gravity Perseus (Stamina) F230CF, MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK) R145RF, MF-H Libra CH120RF, cover most everything and then some). Don't think it's the right way to go for a format where the focus is on variety.

@*Ginga*: Give MF-M Gravity Perseus (Stamina) 85RDF a shot, seeing as your thoughts would allow that among a couple of other things.

Kai Hiwatari: When you said making dragooon overpowered, did you mean Wyvang? Dragooon is pretty meh in limited. As for Wyvang, it is definitely a bigger threat with gravity removed but LibraRF should still keep it in check.
Also I assume *Ginga* was responding to East's memories of certain times before his signup date (personally as long as he keeps making quality posts I couldn't care less).

Also for anyone talking about Libra, pleaaase make sure you've tried it on a prime or near mint RF, as it benefits from it massively. I'm against banning it because it keeps a lot of things in check and it doesn't really seem broken (especially not for pure defense, where earth IS better), but still, I'd like to make sure people know what they're dealing with here.

(Dec. 24, 2013  2:38 AM)Stars Wrote: Gravity: Weak against Pegasus attacker.

Pegasis is and always has been horrendous at attack vs attack, if that's what you're getting at.
Dec. 24, 2013  5:43 AM
 
(Dec. 24, 2013  4:39 AM)th!nk Wrote: Kai Hiwatari: When you said making dragooon overpowered, did you mean Wyvang? Dragooon is pretty meh in limited. As for Wyvang, it is definitely a bigger threat with gravity removed but LibraRF should still keep it in check.
Also I assume *Ginga* was responding to East's memories of certain times before his signup date (personally as long as he keeps making quality posts I couldn't care less, heh).

I meant Dragoon, my thinking was that without Gravity, Dragoon would become the "Go to" Chrome Wheel in attempts to capitalize on Left Spin. I guess overpowered was probably the wrong word, maybe popular would have been better. That was pretty much just my speculation though as I do not have a Dragoon, so all I really know about it is its recorded performances and tests on Synchromes, so it was pretty much speculation. I had not seen any tests on Dragoon in Limited, I had no idea.

I agree, if Gravity were banned it would open up playability for more Libra's and Wyvangs and at the same time, hopefully get more people playing with Cosmic, Beat, Screw, and maybe even testing Chrome Wheels such as Balro.

Yeah, I mean i hope so, but just the way it was worded made it sound like, "if you have not been here for a good amount of time, you should not post here because your posts will pretty much be disregarded."
Dec. 24, 2013  5:53 AM
 
Ill go on record and say Wyvang is very overpowered in this format. But since its rather rare right now not many people have played it in Limited.
Dec. 24, 2013  6:03 AM
 
(Dec. 24, 2013  5:43 AM)Kai Hiwatari Wrote: I meant Dragoon, my thinking was that without Gravity, Dragoon would become the "Go to" Chrome Wheel in attempts to capitalize on Left Spin. I guess overpowered was probably the wrong word, maybe popular would have been better. That was pretty much just my speculation though as I do not have a Dragoon, so all I really know about it is its recorded performances and tests on Synchromes, so it was pretty much speculation. I had not seen any tests on Dragoon in Limited, I had no idea.
Dragooon just isn't very well shaped and while as a bottom chrome wheel it's actually decently balanced for whatever reason (3min+ solo spins) it doesn't really do anything. For Left Spin ZG, Dark Knight is the go to part, and Wyvang seems to be the main chrome wheel of choice, though I kinda wonder if any ZG have the balance and shape to make use of Left Spin (Compare Variares and Lightning, the latter does the former doesn't) - they may be better off using Right for more brute force.

Quote:I agree, if Gravity were banned it would open up playability for more Libra's and Wyvangs and at the same time, hopefully get more people playing with Cosmic, Beat, Screw, and maybe even testing Chrome Wheels such as Balro.
Well, notsomuch Libra as right now Libra+RF is probably the best way to counter the better Gravity attack customs so it definitely has a spot. But yeah, what you've described is exactly what my intentions are (hence why I'd be open to giving gravity another shot down the road).


Dark_Mousy: I forget whether or not I included that in my 'parts to watch' list (EDIT: Yep, I did), but it hasn't seen enough testing or tournament use yet and it apparently has issues with recoil and awful stamina/balance (and ZG are really annoying to launch as their imbalance make the launcher really shaky), so I couldn't really say anything about it either way even though what Kei said about it on RSF was pretty intimidating. I've got one coming (though there's no mail here for a week starting tomorrow so it'll take some time), so when I get it it'll be the first thing I try out, haha (though obviously I would LOVE to see more tests with it with comparatives etc)

EDIT:
I added the following to my post in the advanced forum, but seeing as people mightn't see it, I'll post it here, though by now I've stated most of this a bunch of times in response to others so u no.
(Dec. 23, 2013  1:55 PM)th!nk Wrote: EDIT: I've noticed people seem to be forgetting that Limited is not (at least as far as I am aware/concerned) the same as Standard in terms of the requirements for a ban. This format is focused on making a wide range of parts viable, with an aim of a more varied format (centred around the lighter wheels that don't see use in any format otherwise), and the bans I've recommended were for that, not because the parts are broken - Gravity does push the lines a little in certain Attack setups because it's heavy, relatively low recoil, dual spin and capable of hitting opponents of all heights hard on a single track (R145, wings under gaps/sloped sections, TR145 also does pretty good), but Libra+RF is a viable check (it's not 100% reliable, but it's quite solid and a very viable setup itself).

The Spin Stealer parts on the other hand are entirely because they're holding back/overshadowing a much larger number of parts that would otherwise be competitive, as well as a massive amount of additional tactical part choices in terms of track heights and even tips for those heights (for example, on 230, WD seems to outperform D in 1v1 at least with Earth, but against other heights D is a much better choice whereas WD sacrifices a lot of the advantages of tall tracks due to how wide an angle it can wobble at), and these spin stealers can be removed without completely invalidating spin stealers as a whole, as they are still very capable of using other tips to outspin defense while being harder to KO than standard stamina due to weak launching. F230(G)CF does strike me as a very strong setup, particularly with Gravity around, but on the whole the fact Attack does have an advantage over other types prevents it from being broken (though areas where people steadfastly refuse to use Attack will suffer for it, that's their own fault).
Dec. 28, 2013  2:18 PM
 
This sounds like a really cool concept. I think it'd let the bladers shine more. Its kinda like playing with handicaps. I'm really excited to see this implemented.
Jan. 06, 2014  8:17 PM
 
Everyone keep in mind that if a part is banned or unbanned in one update, there is nothing saying we can't reverse that decision in a future update! For example, say we ban Gravity: if the format ends up being more fun/varied with it gone then we could keep it banned, but if we realize that not having Gravity actually negatively impacts the format or decide that it didn't really need to be banned, we can totally unban it later! That's the beauty of having a dynamic ban list; we can experiment with having certain things banned or unbanned, and if it turns out that the format is worse off due to our move then we have the ability to fix it Grin
Jan. 06, 2014  8:22 PM
 
That's what I love about it, haha. I don't think Gravity needs banned. I'm not sure, I think we can counter Scythe. So far nothing looks like it needs banning. Libra's cept at calm. Though, if Scythe keeps showing heavy results. It'll be banned. I don't think it needs to yet.
Jan. 06, 2014  8:24 PM
 
Any counter to Scythe, at least from my results and experimentation, would be niche and the format would still revolve around Scythe. It's legitimately as powerful if not moreso than a few of the wheels we've already banned, from my testing, not to mention what it does defensively goes against everything we aimed for when building this format - that is making older parts viable. Holding off saying more than that til people repeat my tests though. Unless I'm getting skewed results...

As long as Scythe's around, I wouldn't change anything else I previously discussed from its current state as any of those changes would all only serve to strengthen Scythe itself.
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