MFB: Limited :: Ban List Discussion (v1.5 - 9/20/16)

Is this ban-list going to be active for a while? This should be very fun, but I'm gonna miss synchromes!
Synchromes aren't gone completely if that's what you're thinking. They just aren't allowed in this format of tournaments, the limited format.
Yeah, this is just the ban list for the Limited format! There is no ban list for the Standard format; you can keep using Synchroms like you used to there:
http://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-MFB-Stand...omizations
This an awesome new format! I can't wait to use some old school combos! I hope to go to a tourney with this format soon. I know that all host are going to have this for the next month or so!
So, to be clear, 4Grin bottoms are, in fact, legal?

Meteo BGrin all the way, haha.
I could see it doing well, with the a lot of the "Heavy Hitters" banned.
(Dec. 05, 2013  3:03 AM)Leone19 Wrote: So, to be clear, 4Grin bottoms are, in fact, legal?

Meteo BGrin all the way, haha.
I could see it doing well, with the a lot of the "Heavy Hitters" banned.

4D bottoms are fair game, yeah! I'd be careful with Meteo B: D, though; it's really light, and some of the attackers in this meta pack quite a punch (notably the dual-spin Gravity)! B: D does definitely deserve some testing, that's for sure.
If BD145 is banned, I think you should leave Hell in. Even though it is a bit heavier than the average Limited blade, it is practically useless without its big plastic disk. It has some use for attack, but I'm guessing that Lightning/Gravity/Screw/Vulcan will overpower it.

Someone mentioned Gravity F230CF and Gravity TH170RF, and that kinda makes me wonder if people will use that MMLTTRPCTH combo (Gravity Perseus TH170HF/S) or whatever it was called, haha.
Lol This is a really good idea. It would finally give use to older wheels released after BD145 or ones that fell out of use when BD145 was released.

As for some of the wheels listed, we could probably make a balanced metagame depending on how far back in time we want to centralize this format around. I'd also like to know which wheels we would be considering "staple" Defense wheels. Libra? Earth? If so, Defense really needs a boost. I either want to see Basalt unbanned, or RS + RB unbanned. (One or the other, not both)

Some of my thoughts:

Basalt isn't particularly bulky without BD145 but its use in stamina is a little ambiguous. I've never particularly liked Basalt for Stamina, but I've heard some people are able to outspin Earth. I'd love to see Basalt return in the limited format for defense, because it certainly does better than Earth, which I feel is too weak to handle threats like Sagittario, L Drago, and Vulcan. However, if it begins to dominate Stamina as well, that could be a problem. If Basalt stays banned, I would like to see RS and RB unbanned because Earth will definitely need the boost. As of right now, Lighting L Drago, Beat, Sagittario, and Vulcan shred through Earth on CS.

(Dec. 05, 2013  3:48 AM)Wombat Wrote: ... and that kinda makes me wonder if people will use that MMLTTRPCTH combo (Gravity Perseus TH170HF/S) or whatever it was called, haha.
Lol...that was a satirical custom. The tests in the OP were fabricated.
Basalt and Hell won't be unbanned, they are way too overpowered, and I'd suggest people look elsewhere. Hells weight distribution and elevation are ridiculous to the point it works for every type, and hell 230cs, in addition to being a pain to ko for most limited attackers, outspins a huge portion of the format (including numerous stamina types iirc). Basalt R145 RF destroys almost everything in the format and Basalt defence is immovable for most of the format to boot. Meow! please keep in mind that very few people can do what you can with attack at home, let alone in a tournament situation where self ko's are a major concern. Earth is plenty strong especially if you experiment with different set ups.

Defence also has revizer and other chrome wheels, and metal fury duo, which work very well.

I see a lot of you still need to experiment more with the format to get used to defence actually having risks like stamina and attack (see my previous post in this thread).
(Dec. 05, 2013  4:49 AM)Meow! Wrote:
(Dec. 05, 2013  3:48 AM)Wombat Wrote: ... and that kinda makes me wonder if people will use that MMLTTRPCTH combo (Gravity Perseus TH170HF/S) or whatever it was called, haha.
Lol...that was a satirical custom. The tests in the OP were fabricated.

I was aware of that, lol. That part of the post was intended as a joke, but with Basalt and BD145 most likely getting banned, it could stand an actual chance, haha. Maybe with a different tip.
Like th!nk said, Hell does actually cause problems because of its weight COMBINED with its shape, making it on 230 really annoying to try and take down in this format (though Hell is one of the wheels I personally think could potentially be unbanned, actually!).

Basalt is way too good and way too heavy for this format, such that unbanning it would unfortunately create the whole "Basalt" and "Customs that beat Basalt" scenario that we're trying to avoid.

I will acknowledge that Defense is certainly a little nerfed under this ban list, but unbanning a decently broken wheel (Basalt) would probably cause more harm than good. More importantly, though, there are a number of very untested wheels that might be very good for Limited defense, to the point where this is less of an issue.

Off the top of my head, here are some wheels that I think should be looked into for defense:
  • Scythe [Metal Fury]
    I've been informally testing MF-H Scythe Gasher 85RSF, and it seems to be a really darn good defense custom. The potential is there, anyway.
  • Death [Metal Fury]
    Despite being stuck in "Attack Mode," Death is still mostly round and probably has pretty low recoil despite the protrusions (this is only a guess; I don't actually own one yet). (I just edited this in thanks to Leone19 reminding me in the following post, thank you!)
  • Firefuse [Metal Fury]
    This is a long shot, I don't actually know about this one, but figured it's worth mentioning since it has no real test results.
  • Nightmare
    It's heavy, round-ish, and has surprisingly low recoil. I think it has a shot at being good.
  • Infinity
    Likely strictly worse than Libra, I'll admit, but it's less recoil-prone.
  • Grand
    Super big long shot, probably strictly worse than Earth.
  • L-Drago Guardian [Metal Fury]
    It's decently heavy for this format, and has decently low recoil. Its left spin is nice against attackers like Screw, though depending on how prominent Lightning and Gravity are, the spin direction might be a moot point.
  • Reviser, Killerken, and Genbull
    These depend on if we can find a low-recoil Crystal Wheel to pair them with.

... and most importantly ...
  • Duo [Metal Fury]
    This wheel has the potential to be busted in this format. From informal tests done while this format was still behind the scenes, it was actually doing well enough for us to consider banning it outright. This is a real shot in the arm to Limited defense; it just needs to actually get some test results behind it to prove it.

If these wheels don't prove to help enough, I'd say the next thing we should look at is unbanning RB, but I want to see how these wheels perform before we start talking about that.
I know TheBlackDragon and were talking about the use of Spark FX Death for Defense.

I don't know how anyone else feels on this, but he thought of possible combos such as Death Aquario 230 CS, I suggested Death Aquario GB145 CS.

Its a heck of a longshot, but at this point, with the lack of tests and a new limited format, we can't really make any rash decisions.

I definitely think Duo 230 CS, heck, maybe even Firefuse 230 CS should be tested.

Going crazy with 230 CS, haha.
Reviser works fine even with samurai, it just has bad stamina. Grand is okay but outclassed by earth. Nightmare works okay, but I think earth is better. There really is no need to scramble to find better defense combos though, LTDC and anti attack/rf defense are very effective as is.

People need to remember that part of the focus of the format is making as many things as possible viable, and introducing parts like hell is anathema to that.
EDIT: Ehh, whoops. Brain short circuit, sorry.
So some tests of Metal Fury attack wheels are showing there might be some trouble with our current defense options... If that keeps up, we might need to look at unbanning some of the bottoms to give defense a leg up. I know RS was shown to be nuts for defense in our internal tests, but how bad (read: oppressive) were RB and RDF, exactly? It might be good to unban one or both of them if attack continues to put up worrying numbers, maybe?



(Dec. 05, 2013  7:40 PM)Kujikato Wrote: Forbidden for attack guys?

I got it to KO Basalt a while back.

This thread is really supposed to only be for talking about the ban list; try posting this in the Limited Random Thoughts thread instead! Here:
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MFB-Limi...Q-A-Thread
Double posting because someone asked me an important question: When it comes to how the ban list will be updated, after I get done with my finals tomorrow I'll be making a thread in the Advanced section where we'll discuss it the same way we discuss competitive lists, and the final word on what the ban list looks like/how it gets updated will come from there. This thread will serve as the public discussion for the ban list, again similar to how we handle competitive lists.
Gonna tell you now, Firefuse is obliterated by Attack. I managed to pick one up randomly a few months ago and did that as a way of joking around with old parts (I tend to do that a lot lmao).

Imagine Fusion with the entire rubber half missing and then the metal part hollow out. Firefuse has this thin lip that results from the hollowing out that allows it to get sent flying into walls on higher tracks.

I have yet to try it on the lower tracks, where it would obviously be much more advantageous, but yeah it's not incredible as is.
(Dec. 06, 2013  1:40 AM)Ga Wrote: Gonna tell you now, Firefuse is obliterated by Attack. I managed to pick one up randomly a few months ago and did that as a way of joking around with old parts (I tend to do that a lot lmao).

Imagine Fusion with the entire rubber half missing and then the metal part hollow out. Firefuse has this thin lip that results from the hollowing out that allows it to get sent flying into walls on higher tracks.

I have yet to try it on the lower tracks, where it would obviously be much more advantageous, but yeah it's not incredible as is.

It'd be interesting to see it on 85 RSF/CS, although I can't imagine it'd be a shining star, haha.
i just wanna say that this format is perfect for Australia, as we don't have anything past metal masters. plus i really like lightning l-drago so this format means i can use it again.
I swear that was a coincidence, Giraton.

@ Ingulit: I would suggest banning the offending metal fury wheels rather than legalising a tip that hard counters an entire type, especially as that is the most populous type in the format. Would only make gravity and lightning more dominant to boot.
Yeah... Cosmic is ridiculous...
I did some informal testing and MF-H Earth Aquario GB145 CS was not holding it's ground whatsoever...
That is probably because mf-h earth aquario isn't an effective defense combination rather than anything much on the part of cosmic.! Anyway, I remember a time when wb was the most popular defense tip, Libra was banned, and mf lightning L drag 85/90/100/ch120rf still didn't dominate tournament usage. So, even if there are attack combos that can handle a properly used mf-h earth _____ 85rsf I would be very hesitant to ban them without seeing it saturate tournament usage and winning combo lists - attack is hard to use under pressure, risky, and has historically been unpopular because of that despite massive theoretical potential.

There is also anti-attack and to a lesser extent metal fury duo, both of which are promising avenues for countering attack.
I agree... like I said before, Wyvang can obliterate BD145 Synchrom Defense, but if you just branch out to other variants like Scythe 85RS or Revizer Killerken E230 you won't have a problem. Cosmic dies hard against TH170 defenders, even if it does do well against mid-low height Defense.

Same thing with Beat/Blitz. 85 Defense shreds them both. Just because one form of Defense isn't effective against one form of Attack isn't enough reason to ban the Attacker as long as other competitive variations of Defense can take it out.
My opinion on this stuff:
Wheels: Ban Hell? I say no. It has decent use in smash w/out BD145, but that's all, I agree with everything else though
Tracks: Why ban SP230 over F230, but srsly dou
Tips: Just don't ban RS. It has bad stamina and Balance, srsly, it won't be much of a threat. Same with RB.

Don't ban Libra or Gravity, they both have their uses, but LLD can destroy them. Don't know about Libra, but Gravity, dead.