Burst Classic - New Format Feedback & Discussion

(Jan. 15, 2019  2:10 PM)TL14 Wrote: I'm more than happy that we finally have an official WBO Beyblade Burst Limited/Classic Format. In our regional BeyClub (the Blackwater Guardians)  we already had a Limited Format for a while now, but I personally think ours was not as good as the official one is now. I would be very happy if I can promote the WBO Beyblade Burst Classic Format on my YouTube channel. I think many people would be interested. 😊

My critique towards Burst Classic:
I really like it but I am for unbanning of L2 and for a banning of Eternal, Octa and Deathscyther (Takara Tomy) and maybe Gaianon (Hasbro). Other than that I like it a lot and I would be happy to host a tournament in this format.

Here's our old Blackwater Guardian Limited Format Banlist:

[spoiler:]
"
Layers:
Deathscyther
Dark Deathscyther
All God Layers
All ChoZ Layers
All ChoZ Awakening Layers

Disks:
All Core Disks (& Frames)
Outer
Zenith

Drivers:
All Dash/Prime ( ' ) Drivers
Atomic
Bearing
Eternal
Xtend+
Octa
"

Note: We should have probably included Hasbro Beys in the ruling. 😅

[/spoiler]

Why hasbro G2? It's a solid defence type, but it doesn't have that good stamina. Also L2 made it a ton harder to use a lot of beys because of its heavy weight and reverse rotation.
Huh, with Xtreme' and Hunter ' being legal, people can now also use worn out Valkyrie Layers competitively as well
(Jan. 15, 2019  3:04 PM)MonoDragon Wrote: Huh, with Xtreme' and Hunter ' being legal, people can now also use worn out Valkyrie Layers competitively as well

V2 T/G X' is better Choice I guees
Wait I think Dragoon Is the Strongest bey out there. If Launched with a Proto Launcher
(Jan. 15, 2019  2:10 PM)TL14 Wrote: I'm more than happy that we finally have an official WBO Beyblade Burst Limited/Classic Format. In our regional BeyClub (the Blackwater Guardians)  we already had a Limited Format for a while now, but I personally think ours was not as good as the official one is now. I would be very happy if I can promote the WBO Beyblade Burst Classic Format on my YouTube channel. I think many people would be interested. 😊

My critique towards Burst Classic:
I really like it but I am for unbanning of L2 and for a banning of Eternal, Octa and Deathscyther (Takara Tomy) and maybe Gaianon (Hasbro). Other than that I like it a lot and I would be happy to host a tournament in this format.

Here's our old Blackwater Guardian Limited Format Banlist:


Interesting feedback for sure, and we appreciate the input! Glad to hear you're liking what we've come up with as well!

Would you mind explaining some of the bans and unbans you've suggested? Would be interesting to hear why you're recommending these, given you seem to have experience with a Classic ruleset :)
(Jan. 15, 2019  5:50 PM)~Mana~ Wrote:
(Jan. 15, 2019  2:10 PM)TL14 Wrote: I'm more than happy that we finally have an official WBO Beyblade Burst Limited/Classic Format. In our regional BeyClub (the Blackwater Guardians)  we already had a Limited Format for a while now, but I personally think ours was not as good as the official one is now. I would be very happy if I can promote the WBO Beyblade Burst Classic Format on my YouTube channel. I think many people would be interested. 😊

My critique towards Burst Classic:
I really like it but I am for unbanning of L2 and for a banning of Eternal, Octa and Deathscyther (Takara Tomy) and maybe Gaianon (Hasbro). Other than that I like it a lot and I would be happy to host a tournament in this format.

Here's our old Blackwater Guardian Limited Format Banlist:


Interesting feedback for sure, and we appreciate the input! Glad to hear you're liking what we've come up with as well!

Would you mind explaining some of the bans and unbans you've suggested? Would be interesting to hear why you're recommending these, given you seem to have experience with a Classic ruleset Smile

(Jan. 15, 2019  5:50 PM)~Mana~ Wrote:
(Jan. 15, 2019  2:10 PM)TL14 Wrote: I'm more than happy that we finally have an official WBO Beyblade Burst Limited/Classic Format. In our regional BeyClub (the Blackwater Guardians)  we already had a Limited Format for a while now, but I personally think ours was not as good as the official one is now. I would be very happy if I can promote the WBO Beyblade Burst Classic Format on my YouTube channel. I think many people would be interested. 😊

My critique towards Burst Classic:
I really like it but I am for unbanning of L2 and for a banning of Eternal, Octa and Deathscyther (Takara Tomy) and maybe Gaianon (Hasbro). Other than that I like it a lot and I would be happy to host a tournament in this format.

Here's our old Blackwater Guardian Limited Format Banlist:


Interesting feedback for sure, and we appreciate the input! Glad to hear you're liking what we've come up with as well!

Would you mind explaining some of the bans and unbans you've suggested? Would be interesting to hear why you're recommending these, given you seem to have experience with a Classic ruleset Smile

Thank you, Mana, for the kind reply. 🙂 I'm sorry for the kinda "rushed" reply from before. I was in a hurry and didn't have much time.

I know that Lost Longinus is very popular among fans and that's not only because of the anime but also because of it's power and viability in many different setups and playing styles in real life.
I can imagine the latter of which was probably the reason it got banned. While I totally understand this decision and I support it, I would still like to say, even tho I can't speak for everyone, that banning the only good Left Spin layer (besides Takara Dragoon S) may hold some new players, that have never played in a Limited/Classic Format before, back from trying it out or attending a Burst Classic Format Tournament. Maybe L2 can be banned only on a few Drivers that make it op. That way L2 can stay while not being overused.

In my personal opinion Eternal deserves a ban because it is a better Revolve since it's more difficult to destabilize and has higher LAD, at least from my experience.

I am not sure about Octa, because I don't have it myself, but it seems to give Beys a lot more weight which would ruin the concept of making a format for lighter Beys and it could give some players, that can afford it, an upperhand.

I personally think that Single Layer Deathscyther (from Takara Tomy) should be banned, because it would probably dominate to some degree, since there are not that many counters to it, as long as it's teeth are in a good condition.

As I said, about Gaianon G2 I'm not sure, because I haven't tested it yet. But from what I've seen so far, it's strong defense might be a problem for some Attack Types.

I hope this was helpful. Smile
Sincerely, TL14
(Jan. 15, 2019  7:06 PM)TL14 Wrote:
(Jan. 15, 2019  5:50 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Interesting feedback for sure, and we appreciate the input! Glad to hear you're liking what we've come up with as well!

Would you mind explaining some of the bans and unbans you've suggested? Would be interesting to hear why you're recommending these, given you seem to have experience with a Classic ruleset Smile

(Jan. 15, 2019  5:50 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Interesting feedback for sure, and we appreciate the input! Glad to hear you're liking what we've come up with as well!

Would you mind explaining some of the bans and unbans you've suggested? Would be interesting to hear why you're recommending these, given you seem to have experience with a Classic ruleset Smile

Thank you, Mana, for the kind reply. 🙂 I'm sorry for the kinda "rushed" reply from before. I was in a hurry and didn't have much time.

I know that Lost Longinus is very popular among fans and that's not only because of the anime but also because of it's power and viability in many different setups and playing styles in real life.
I can imagine the latter of which was probably the reason it got banned. While I totally understand this decision and I support it, I would still like to say, even tho I can't speak for everyone, that banning the only good Left Spin layer (besides Takara Dragoon S) may hold some new players, that have never played in a Limited/Classic Format before, back from trying it out or attending a Burst Classic Format Tournament. Maybe L2 can be banned only on a few Drivers that make it op. That way L2 can stay while not being overused.

In my personal opinion Eternal deserves a ban because it is a better Revolve since it's more difficult to destabilize and has higher LAD, at least from my experience.

I am not sure about Octa, because I don't have it myself, but it seems to give Beys a lot more weight which would ruin the concept of making a format for lighter Beys and it could give some players, that can afford it, an upperhand.

I personally think that Single Layer Deathscyther (from Takara Tomy) should be banned, because it would probably dominate to some degree, since there are not that many counters to it, as long as it's teeth are in a good condition.

As I said, about Gaianon G2 I'm not sure, because I haven't tested it yet. But from what I've seen so far, it's strong defense might be a problem for some Attack Types.

I hope this was helpful. Smile
Sincerely, TL14

Yeah, but there needs to be some counters to attack types or else the game would be attack would be unfairly dominating. For a defence bey to be to OverP, it also needs to posses great stamina, a department where G2 fails in.
YESSSSS TIME FOR Wb.G.Ds!!! NEW WOLBORG METAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Also can we allow Spiral Treptune T4? It doesnt have its gimmick and its honestly not even applicable anymore. Not the TT version, Just hasbro.
(Jan. 15, 2019  11:11 PM)LeonidasKerbeus Wrote: YESSSSS TIME FOR Wb.G.Ds!!! NEW WOLBORG METAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Also can we allow Spiral Treptune T4? It doesnt have its gimmick and its honestly not even applicable anymore. Not the TT version, Just hasbro.

What? You see, T4 isnt thst good for god standards, but for dual layers, it's too strong.
Is Deathscyther really at risk for dominating considering the options available?
(Jan. 16, 2019  1:46 AM)AndyHG Wrote: Is Deathscyther really at risk for dominating considering the options available?

Not sure. If its anything like the hasbro one, attack can pretty much ruin its chances to dominate.
To me, Octa could potentially stay. It may have a high amount of weight, but it focuses that near the ground rather than top down like a heavy layer would work. This (if I remember correctly) increases the burst risk of a combo. It also doesn't perform as well for same spin or opposite spin compared to other drivers, but I'm basing this off of its performance from standard format, so it may be different in Classic.
(Jan. 13, 2019  7:57 AM)Wombat Wrote: Still have a few adjustments I'd like to see made to the banlist, like the unbanning of (some) Turbo Layers, tW/W3 (which I think we might have just forgotten when listing God Layers that were bad) and maybe 11 and 13, but we should probably wait on testing/tournament results before making any adjustments for the moment.

cant wait to sweep the first burst classic tournament with no longer alive spryzen lol

Tbh, I think W3 may be too good to ban. Maybe not because of the stamina. Ps. I am genuinely scared of that "no longer alive" spryzen combo. But I got at least some thing that can beat it even though it's the biggest glass cannon ever, haha.
(Jan. 15, 2019  12:20 PM)MonoDragon Wrote: Were Duo Apollos, Duo Artemis and Duo Eclipse deemed too heavy?

Not necessarily. We just feel they don't really fit into Classic. They're underpowered, but they're still not bad Layers, and it's inclusion could risk distracting from the Single & Dual Layers that we're trying so hard to give a place to thrive, haha.

(Jan. 15, 2019  3:04 PM)MonoDragon Wrote: Huh, with Xtreme' and Hunter ' being legal, people can now also use worn out Valkyrie Layers competitively as well

They can indeed! Though I'd personally assume Valkyrie will remain a stationary attack option in favour of mobile focus on V2 instead.

(Jan. 15, 2019  7:06 PM)TL14 Wrote: I know that Lost Longinus is very popular among fans and that's not only because of the anime but also because of it's power and viability in many different setups and playing styles in real life.
I can imagine the latter of which was probably the reason it got banned. While I totally understand this decision and I support it, I would still like to say, even tho I can't speak for everyone, that banning the only good Left Spin layer (besides Takara Dragoon S) may hold some new players, that have never played in a Limited/Classic Format before, back from trying it out or attending a Burst Classic Format Tournament. Maybe L2 can be banned only on a few Drivers that make it op. That way L2 can stay while not being overused.

In my personal opinion Eternal deserves a ban because it is a better Revolve since it's more difficult to destabilize and has higher LAD, at least from my experience.

I am not sure about Octa, because I don't have it myself, but it seems to give Beys a lot more weight which would ruin the concept of making a format for lighter Beys and it could give some players, that can afford it, an upperhand.

I personally think that Single Layer Deathscyther (from Takara Tomy) should be banned, because it would probably dominate to some degree, since there are not that many counters to it, as long as it's teeth are in a good condition.

As I said, about Gaianon G2 I'm not sure, because I haven't tested it yet. But from what I've seen so far, it's strong defense might be a problem for some Attack Types.

I hope this was helpful. :)
Sincerely, TL14

Thanks for giving your reasoning! :)

I can understand what you mean regarding L2. You're not wrong that it has been banned due to it's power and viability; L2 towards the end of the Dual Layer era (and well into the God era) could basically serve as a catch-all Layer, and there really wasn't a bad way to use it honestly. This ban is still for the best to keep the rest of the format balanced and keep some other Layers viable that it would have otherwise replaced. We'll keep an eye on the L2 situation but, unless newer Drivers make certain other Layers crazily strong, I think keeping L2 away will go more good than harm to this format.

The concern is definitely noted on Eternal. Without tournament data to use as a basis, it's pretty hard to comment on whether Eternal will upset anything yet. That said, Eternal does seem to have slightly less Burst resistance than Revolve in my opinion so, with the increased ability for attack type combinations to work in this format, I'm not tooconcerned at this moment. Something I'll keep an eye on during Saturday's event for sure though!

Octa is understandable, and we're thinking about this one a lot. The drastic amount of weight it adds to a Bey could ruin the point of this Format, but it's also hard to comment as it's not a common part at the moment. It'll become more common when Hasbro's Orichalcum O3 becomes available next month though, which will likely be when it's time to act, as we'll have a reliable way of seeing whether it'll fit within the metagame firsthand.

I'll address Deathscyther in reply to AndyHG below, but I'm not sure it'll be a huge issue overall.

I guess we'll see from experience for G2! Shall try it out this weekend!

(Jan. 15, 2019  11:11 PM)LeonidasKerbeus Wrote: Also can we allow Spiral Treptune T4? It doesnt have its gimmick and its honestly not even applicable anymore. Not the TT version, Just hasbro.

I'ma still say no on this one. As I've said before, I'm already unhappy with God Layers being included at all given that this is "Classic", so I don't particularly want to further this issue. If anything, I'd prefer to go the other way and reduce the list of ones permitted, haha.

(Jan. 16, 2019  1:46 AM)AndyHG Wrote: Is Deathscyther really at risk for dominating considering the options available?

A noted concern, and something we thought about and tried for ourselves a little. Deathscyther's Burst Resistance isn't the best anyway and, with attack being goaded on quite heavily with how we've planned this out, we think it can avoid the banlist for now! But we'll be keeping an eye on it to see how it handles itself.

I will say though; I feel like TT Deathscyther technically softbans itself due to it's lack of availability and the number of them that people have that already have ruined teeth from when they were used years ago, haha.

(Jan. 16, 2019  2:12 AM)Dragunix Wrote: To me, Octa could potentially stay. It may have a high amount of weight, but it focuses that near the ground rather than top down like a heavy layer would work. This (if I remember correctly) increases the burst risk of a combo. It also doesn't perform as well for same spin or opposite spin compared to other drivers, but I'm basing this off of its performance from standard format, so it may be different in Classic.

@[Kei] As an experienced owner of Octa, do you have any comments or concerns to add about it's inclusion at all? Would it catastrophically upset the weight balancing? Or would you say the part isn't really a competitive concern even with the added weight?
Looking through, this seems like a well thought out format. I look forward to seeing what combos and brands take the top of the podium for the first few tournaments.
I really like this banlist and ruleset, though I feel like it should be updated to have Jolt' be legal once that releases, and also do the same if the other remaining grip-flat Drivers get Dash variants (Variable, Evolution, Impact maybe???). I also feel like the Duo Artemis/Apollos/Aeclipse Layers would be fine to have legal in this format (especially considering how similar in design Duo Artemis is to Inferno Ifrit and Victory Valkyrie, which are both great attackers for this format, and how these layers would never see competitive play otherwise, lol), but I respect the mentality of "keep this format restricted only to S1-era Layers", so I'm not too bent out of shape over it, haha. Can't wait to try and run this format!
My issue is, the more God stuff added, the more actual "Classic" stuff becomes invalid, which isn't really the point here.

Like, I'm preparing a Classic parts case for this weekend at the moment and looking at these God Layers with so much distaste really, especially after weighing some and seeing they're 3-4 grams heavier than the maximum from the Single/Dual stuff. Regulus weighs in at 12.5g, which is already amusing to see when stuff like Valkyrie and V2 are 8 and 9 respectively, haha. We'll see how that works out, but I won't lie that it's concerning at first glance.

We can think about those Dash Drivers for sure later on, haha.
Wait a minute, with the God Valkyrie Layer allowed, is changing out God Chips permitted?
Good question! Given that God Layers already have a sizeable weight advantage in this format, I'd say they shouldn't be able to use Metal God Chips. @[Wombat], @[The Supreme One]; thoughts?

Though I'm increasingly concerned about including God stuff altogether, especially after testing stuff tonight ready for the weekend. Shelter Regulus inparticular is perhaps a little too good for this format honestly; it's sizeable weight advantage helps it take the center over Single/Dual Layer Beys, and it can handily Burst some attackers as well. Not a good trait to have for balancing...

Shall test some more tomorrow to see if there's a decent solution, but I'm not too optimistic unfortunately.
I gotta say Mana, I really liked the idea in the first place for a Dual Layer format, and I gotta hand it too you for making the idea possible.

The banlist and format are mostly what I thought it would be, though a few things surprise me (Hasbro J2 ban, kS unban) which I think are definite possibilities of things that may or may not be overpowered that I overlooked when I tried making a proof of concept. That said, there are a few things I'm concerned about.

We should allow core disks but ban 0, 00, 7, 10, and frames. Maybe ban 1' (I don't have any experience with the part to know) and maybe unban 7. The main issue with dual layer format I found is the availability of disks being low. Allowing the weaker core disks (without frames) would help make the format a lot easier to participate in without causing meta issues.

Xtreme' and Hunter' not being banned is a serious issue. It makes them the ONLY viable attack drivers and makes bursting occur extremely less. It also makes the rule inconsistent with game balance. Xtreme and Hunter are two the BEST attack drivers in the game, but somehow only their Dash counterpart is allowed? Destroy', while it would be a really good driver, wouldn't break the game entirely due to the lack of left spins (I tried Dragoon Phantom with Ds', it doesn't work.) Volcanic isn't a good driver, but it sure is one of my favorite. No reason to ban Volcanic'. Unsure about Zeta'; would need to compare its performance compared to Orbit. Similar argument for Volcanic' applies to Accel', Merge', and Blow'. A similar argument for Destroy' (but on a lesser level) applies to Zephyr'.

My opinion is that dash drivers have absolutely no place in a Classic Format. If you allow them at all, the ruling shouldn't be so inconsistent that is bans all but the very best ones.

As for the discussions about drivers like Eternal, stamina isn't too good in Dual Layer format, so I think stamina could use the boost. Conversely, I think it would be interesting to consider if Xtreme gives too much power to attack (which is kinda why Atomic is banned; giving too much to defense).

I don't care if newer layers that are weak are allowed (the topic was the dual god beys). I think it's more important to have a diversity and balanced meta than preserve the "Classic" idea, but that doesn't mean to abandon the Classic idea. I'd probably allow Bloody Longinus (no level chip) and maybe Hasbro's Turbo layers in a god layer format.

EDIT: Specifically talking about Shelter Regulus, the layer is fair and very burstable as long as you ban Dash drivers.
I think we should ban all layers past dual layers because the format is called Burst Classic not God layer and Classic format but keep all of the parts unbanned.
(Jan. 17, 2019  2:09 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: I gotta say Mana, I really liked the idea in the first place for a Dual Layer format, and I gotta hand it too you for making the idea possible.

The banlist and format are mostly what I thought it would be, though a few things surprise me (Hasbro J2 ban, kS unban) which I think are definite possibilities of things that may or may not be overpowered that I overlooked when I tried making a proof of concept. That said, there are a few things I'm concerned about.

We should allow core disks but ban 0, 00, 7, 10, and frames. Maybe ban 1' (I don't have any experience with the part to know) and maybe unban 7. The main issue with dual layer format I found is the availability of disks being low. Allowing the weaker core disks (without frames) would help make the format a lot easier to participate in without causing meta issues.

Xtreme' and Hunter' not being banned is a serious issue. It makes them the ONLY viable attack drivers and makes bursting occur extremely less. It also makes the rule inconsistent with game balance. Xtreme and Hunter are two the BEST attack drivers in the game, but somehow only their Dash counterpart is allowed? Destroy', while it would be a really good driver, wouldn't break the game entirely due to the lack of left spins (I tried Dragoon Phantom with Ds', it doesn't work.) Volcanic isn't a good driver, but it sure is one of my favorite. No reason to ban Volcanic'. Unsure about Zeta'; would need to compare its performance compared to Orbit. Similar argument for Volcanic' applies to Accel', Merge', and Blow'. A similar argument for Destroy' (but on a lesser level) applies to Zephyr'.

My opinion is that dash drivers have absolutely no place in a Classic Format. If you allow them at all, the ruling shouldn't be so inconsistent that is bans all but the very best ones.

As for the discussions about drivers like Eternal, stamina isn't too good in Dual Layer format, so I think stamina could use the boost. Conversely, I think it would be interesting to consider if Xtreme gives too much power to attack (which is kinda why Atomic is banned; giving too much to defense).

I don't care if newer layers that are weak are allowed (the topic was the dual god beys). I think it's more important to have a diversity and balanced meta than preserve the "Classic" idea, but that doesn't mean to abandon the Classic idea. I'd probably allow Bloody Longinus (no level chip) and maybe Hasbro's Turbo layers in a god layer format.

EDIT: Specifically talking about Shelter Regulus, the layer is fair and very burstable as long as you ban Dash drivers.

The issue with core discs is that the premise is Burst Classic. Emphasis on Classic. It’s already stretching it by adding a few God Layers. Burst Classic is designed so that people can have fun with the original releases, and by continually tossing in new parts it just becomes Burst Limited.
(Jan. 17, 2019  2:14 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote: I think we should ban all layers past dual layers because the format is called Burst Classic not God layer and Classic format but keep all of the parts unbanned.

Cheeto's got the right idea here. Sure, ban Hasbro J2 or whatever, but for real, keep classic classic. Ban God and above, ban dash drivers, and ban all core disks. Heavy and Gravity and the other uncommon and interesting newer forge discs, let's give those a chance to shine, certainly.

I realize you're keeping Xtreme' and Hunter' in there to try and make attack beys viable. But it's diluting the classic intent. Xtreme and Hunter are still viable on their own.
When you have 4 or more exceptions to a rule, like you do in the Tips and Layers category, it loses meaning. Keep it simple. If you want to fine tune the meta perfectly, save that for limited.
Guys, just an important thing to keep in mind: Burst Classic is only a name, it doesn't literally mean that only Single/Dual Layer parts should be legal for use. Functionally, the intent of this format is to create a balanced metagame focused on the Single and Dual Layer parts. If newer parts like Xtreme', Eternal, and Cognite C3 can exist in that meta without upsetting its balance, then they should be legal.

(Jan. 17, 2019  1:39 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: Good question! Given that God Layers already have a sizeable weight advantage in this format, I'd say they shouldn't be able to use Metal God Chips. @[Wombat], @[The Supreme One]; thoughts?

Though I'm increasingly concerned about including God stuff altogether, especially after testing stuff tonight ready for the weekend. Shelter Regulus inparticular is perhaps a little too good for this format honestly; it's sizeable weight advantage helps it take the center over Single/Dual Layer Beys, and it can handily Burst some attackers as well. Not a good trait to have for balancing...

Shall test some more tomorrow to see if there's a decent solution, but I'm not too optimistic unfortunately.

I'm not sure if the banning Metal God Chips would really do anything, since finding a God Chip that fits tightly was more important than the ~0.4g weight increase you get from a MGC. I know I played around with sR briefly when I was testing classic stuff and it was still bursting a lot for me, what combos have you found that you think make it OP?

(Jan. 16, 2019  10:23 AM)~Mana~ Wrote:
(Jan. 16, 2019  1:46 AM)AndyHG Wrote: Is Deathscyther really at risk for dominating considering the options available?

A noted concern, and something we thought about and tried for ourselves a little. Deathscyther's Burst Resistance isn't the best anyway and, with attack being goaded on quite heavily with how we've planned this out, we think it can avoid the banlist for now! But we'll be keeping an eye on it to see how it handles itself.

I will say though; I feel like TT Deathscyther technically softbans itself due to it's lack of availability and the number of them that people have that already have ruined teeth from when they were used years ago, haha.

I don't think Deathscyther is at risk for dominating at all. It may have some of the best Stamina in the game, but also has the tradeoff of being easy to burst (much like the TT Bearing). It's a good part, for sure, but not overpowered by any means, and we've also kept Acid Anubis and Guardian Kerbeus (two Layers which perform very similarly to Deathscyther) legal to address the teeth wear issue that Deathscyther does have.

(Jan. 17, 2019  2:09 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: We should allow core disks but ban 0, 00, 7, 10, and frames. Maybe ban 1' (I don't have any experience with the part to know) and maybe unban 7. The main issue with dual layer format I found is the availability of disks being low. Allowing the weaker core disks (without frames) would help make the format a lot easier to participate in without causing meta issues.

Aside from the lighter Core Disks like 11 and 13 (12 should still stay banned so we don't have to deal with the Frame restriction imo) even things like 6 are about the same weight as Heavy. Depending on what combo you're using there's like at least 8 different non-core Disks that can be feasibly used, while everyone would just use 4 and 5 for the Core Disks.

Like I said before, I'm all for unbanning 11 and 13 and even allowing them to use Frames (since their main purposes are to provide LAD or support Attack Points, the former of which isn't terribly important with such a small left spin presence and the latter of which actually helps Attack more), but I understand the reasoning behind keeping all the Core Disks banned for simplicity's sake.

(Jan. 17, 2019  2:09 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Xtreme' and Hunter' not being banned is a serious issue. It makes them the ONLY viable attack drivers and makes bursting occur extremely less. It also makes the rule inconsistent with game balance. Xtreme and Hunter are two the BEST attack drivers in the game, but somehow only their Dash counterpart is allowed? Destroy', while it would be a really good driver, wouldn't break the game entirely due to the lack of left spins (I tried Dragoon Phantom with Ds', it doesn't work.) Volcanic isn't a good driver, but it sure is one of my favorite. No reason to ban Volcanic'. Unsure about Zeta'; would need to compare its performance compared to Orbit. Similar argument for Volcanic' applies to Accel', Merge', and Blow'. A similar argument for Destroy' (but on a lesser level) applies to Zephyr'.

My opinion is that dash drivers have absolutely no place in a Classic Format. If you allow them at all, the ruling shouldn't be so inconsistent that is bans all but the very best ones.

Xtreme' and Hunter' (and Jolt' too when it comes out) will no doubt see use on KO Attack setups, but they're far from the only viable Attack Drivers in the game. Things like Accel, Zephyr, Iron, and Trans still exist for Mixed Attack, and there's a plethora of Drivers that can be used for Burst Attack as well (Yielding, Weight, Orbit, Needle). Not sure where you're getting the idea that Xtreme and Hunter are banned, though, since they aren't - they're just outclassed, though still  viable in this format with lighter, more agile combos. Allowing the Dash versions of such high-friction Drivers is crucial to promoting Attack usage in this format, since self-bursting was a significant risk back when most of these Layers were first being used.

I'd be comfortable with allowing Volcanic' and Merge', but I have to say that A', Z', and probably B' too need to stay banned. gK.S.Z' is capable of OSing A2.G.R, and even when I launched V2.K.X' against it so that they would collide head on along the Tornado Ridge, V2 would fail to KO or burst gK, or even self burst while gK barely skipped any teeth. If Z' makes Tornado Stalling so OP that neither conventional Stamina nor KO Attack (its 2 main counters) can beat it, then it should be banned. I'm kind of neutral about Ds', given it can really only be used well in opposite spin, its KO Defense still sucks, and the only 2 legal left spin Layers are pretty wimpy, I don't think it would do any harm to unban it, but I don't think it would make the game any more interesting.

(Jan. 17, 2019  2:09 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: As for the discussions about drivers like Eternal, stamina isn't too good in Dual Layer format, so I think stamina could use the boost. Conversely, I think it would be interesting to consider if Xtreme gives too much power to attack (which is kinda why Atomic is banned; giving too much to defense).

(For some reason) Eternal doesn't have as good of Stamina as Revolve in same spin, so it's really not much of a threat there. I've also tested Dragoon Y.Et and found that dedicated KO Attackers like V2 and X can take it out without much issue. Sure, it can outspin a good amount of right spin stuff, but I don't think it's any more worrisome than, say, Meteo L-Drago in MFB Limited.

If anything, I'd echo ~Mana~'s concerns about the Hasbro Octa as well - if Dragoon F's slopes are as tight as KJ and bladekid claim, then it's probably going to be relatively tight on Octa, which could make it really difficult to burst on top of being difficult to KO (thanks to Octa's weight) and OS... I don't really think the TT Octa is an issue though, since again the only Layers that can really abuse it are about half its weight.
@[~Mana~], please test Hasbro Anubion A2. 2018 Estonia champion win using Anubion A2.
(Jan. 17, 2019  12:46 PM)ks123 Wrote: @[~Mana~], please test Hasbro Anubion A2. 2018 Estonia champion win using Anubion A2.

I have Anubion A2, it’s pretty good for defense.