Ban Hasbro Bearing?

Hasbro Br is very strong Stamina driver, but I think it should only be banned in First Stage. In Final Stage (Deck Format), can only be 1 Br in the Deck, and so I think it can be used there.
(Jan. 12, 2019  6:08 PM)ks123 Wrote: Hasbro Br is very strong Stamina driver, but I think it should only be banned in First Stage. In Final Stage (Deck Format), can only be 1 Br in the Deck, and so I think it can be used there.

You cannot Use Multiple copies of Any Part in your deck.
(Jan. 12, 2019  6:13 PM)Adarsh Abhinav Wrote:
(Jan. 12, 2019  6:08 PM)ks123 Wrote: Hasbro Br is very strong Stamina driver, but I think it should only be banned in First Stage. In Final Stage (Deck Format), can only be 1 Br in the Deck, and so I think it can be used there.

You cannot Use Multiple copies of Any Part in your deck.

I know that. I thought that if you can't use Br several times, it will make the thing a little more equal.
Tests thus far have been largely focused on left-spin Hasbro Br combos, but we are also considering an unban on Garuda G3, so it seemed pertinent to do some testing on it as well in tandem with Br:

Test Conditions
- G3 always launched first vs Attack
- Alternating launches for G3 and hS matchup
- BeyLauncher LR + Launcher Grip for X' Attack types unless otherwise noted
- BeyLauncher/BeyLauncher L for G3, mG, hS
- Hard launch for G3/mG against Attack
- Medium/Weak launches for G3 and hS in their matchup

Benchmark
Cho-Z Valkyrie 7 αngle Xtreme Dash vs. Maximum Garuda 0 Star Bearing
超V.7α.X': 5 Wins (5 BF)
mG.0S.Br: 0 Wins
mG Win Percentage: 0%

Test Results
Cho-Z Valkyrie 7 αngle Xtreme vs. Garuda G3 0 Wall Bearing
超V.7α.X: 4 Wins (3 OS, 1 KO)
G3.0W.Br: 6 Wins (6 OS)
G3 Win Percentage: 60%

Cho-Z Valkyrie 7 αngle Hunter Dash vs. Garuda G3 0 Wall Bearing
超V.7α.Hn': 1 Wins (1 OS)
G3.0W.Br: 4 Wins (6 OS)
G3 Win Percentage: 80%

Cho-Z Valkyrie 7 αngle Xtreme Dash vs. Garuda G3 0 Wall Bearing
超V.7α.X': 4 Wins (2 OS, 2 KO)
G3.0W.Br: 1 Wins (1 OS)
G3 Win Percentage: 20%

Cho-Z Valkyrie 7 αngle Xtreme Dash vs. Garuda G3 0 Star Bearing
超V.7α.X': 0 Wins
G3.0S.Br: 5 Wins (5 OS)
G3 Win Percentage: 100%

Hell Salamander 0 Wall Bearing vs. Garuda G3 0 Wall Bearing
hS.0W.Br: 3 Wins (3 OS)
G3.0S.Br: 3 Wins (3 OS)
14 Draws
G3 Win Percentage: 50%

Key Takeaways
  • The mG benchmark demonstrates that it should basically instantly burst versus Attack. But G3 never bursted once in these tests.
  • The Frame on G3 played a pretty big role. Wall was getting knocked around and smashed down pretty easily, especially with Xtreme Dash. Star was much harder for 超V, as the results indicate.
  • Hunter Dash really didn't do much against G3 even with Wall on it ... that's not right. Against TT Bearing I'm certain the result would be much different.
  • The hS and G3 matchup was dead even overall. 14 Draws.
I dont think that we need to ban bearing
Has the decision been made yet?
(Jan. 14, 2019  3:27 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote: Has the decision been made yet?

Probably
People here want to ban the driver bearing. I am offended because it's one of the most powerful things I've ever had. I don't use or have Xt+ so if this act is passed I'll be destroyed by Cho-z users (I dont have any cho-z). I WANT SPIN STEALING TO PREVAIL. STOP BAN BEARING!!!
(Feb. 19, 2019  3:32 PM)lilphilyb Wrote: People here want to ban the driver bearing. I am offended because it's one of the most powerful things I've ever had. I don't use or have Xt+ so if this act is passed I'll be destroyed by Cho-z users (I dont have any cho-z). I WANT SPIN STEALING TO PREVAIL. STOP BAN BEARING!!!

This has been passed a while ago, there was only a couple people who wanted it banned anyways. Though 0W.H is a good replacement 0W.Br, so that is something.
[Image: 1aixxk]

Its supposed to be an I dont want to live on this planet anymore meme

Besides, its not in the rule book
(Feb. 19, 2019  5:23 PM)lilphilyb Wrote: [Image: 1aixxk]

Its supposed to be an I dont want to live on this planet anymore meme

Besides, its not in the rule book
[Image: 1aixxk.jpg]

There ya go. fixed.

Also, no reason to ban it in regular burst format since there are a lot of combo's that are better atm. It is banned is in other formats though.
Continuing the discussion from the Winning Combintions thread:

(Mar. 10, 2019  9:55 PM)Mage Wrote: Bay Area The Phoenix Burns Again

1st: PenguinSF
LC Perfect Pheonix Ωuter Xtend+
Archer Hercules 00 Wall Bearing
Crash Ragnuruk 10 Expand Destroy' (Deck Format Finals Only)

2nd: Mage
Archer Hercules 00 Eternal
Hell Salamander 7 Lift Bearing
Cho-Z Achilles 8' Xtreme (Deck Format Finals Only)

3rd: BurstingBeast
Balkesh B3 2 Bump Bearing
Garuda G3 8 Flow Flugel (Deck Format Finals Only)
Luinor L3 Atomic (Deck Format Finals Only)

Challonge: https://challonge.com/bayareahephoenixburnsagain
Spreadsheet coming soon...

http://imgur.com/PQhF5Nl
http://imgur.com/0f4oeku
http://imgur.com/RaNuLiO
http://imgur.com/DqgMH3F
http://imgur.com/MOILOiw

(Mar. 10, 2019  10:21 PM)Kei Wrote: Someone got through the First Stage using only Balkesh B3 Bearing? Shocking!

(Mar. 10, 2019  10:44 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote:
(Mar. 10, 2019  10:21 PM)Kei Wrote: Someone got through the First Stage using only Balkesh B3 Bearing? Shocking!

Are you seriously going to bring up your ban bearing thread every time someone uses B3.Br in a winning combination? Because it doesn't look like they've posted the Luinor Cup results yet, so let's just get this out of the way so you don't feel compelled to do this again.

I came in second place, B3.10L.Br was a combo I used and won with in 3/6 First round matches, and used B3.0L.Br heavily in one of my finals matches against epickblader and used it a few times for points again against Yami, who beat me 5-4.
There was another finals contender who went 4-2 entirely with B3.2B.At.

Happy? Get it out of your system, you're a broken record. If you want to ban B3, or Bearing, then just do it in some of your Toronto tournaments and tell us how it goes. Try it locally and see how the meta changes. Go right ahead, we'll just replace it with Hell Salamander.

(Mar. 11, 2019  2:59 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: You're said all this numerous times before. I'm not against people expressing their opinions, but once is enough in most cases. Especially for repeated walls of text advocating for a ban. Don't expect people to respect your opinions if you're leading a crusade to ban their decent layers or tips. Don't try to hide behind civility, what you're doing will be considered very rude by some people.

Like I said, ban it in your Toronto tournaments and see how that affects the meta. You're convinced the standard tournament results support your hypothesis, so the next step is a local ban. Enough words, try it.

I used and won with B3 in matches 1, 3, and 6 in the first stage. I used and won with a combo of hS.10C.At or something similar in matches 2, 4 (I can't remember if it was Cross or Glaive). I lost in a pP vs pP match 5.

(Mar. 11, 2019  6:36 AM)1234beyblade Wrote: Imagine Hasbro bearings only counter being stamina v stamina while stuff like hS aH and pP all have some sort of attacker that bursts them. Like comon do you seriously think having a part that makes beys unburstable without a gimmick to make them not burst is okay? To me it just seems like you like using exploits to get an unfair advantage above other players and that being you not having to worry about ever bursting, very nice, true skill, outplayed outsmarted 10/10 would play again. Nice meme "Hasbro bearing isn't broken 4Head" I'll make sure to yoink that one zlul



In reply to DeceasedCrab:

Yes, I have said much of this before. However, given the context of the situation (my last post on the matter was nearly two months ago on January 12 and then we decided to let things play themselves out and see how it did in the metagame), I did not feel it was out of place to comment on it again now that there is some tangible results posted to back up my perspective. That was the requirement we set internally for re-evaluating the part a few months ago. If I had been constantly harping on this despite that decision, I could understand the frustration as it would have been inconsequential while we waited for actual results.

I sincerely apologize if anything I say comes across as being rude; that is certainly the furthest thing from my intention! I'm not trying to hide behind civility at all; that is genuinely how I am. I argue for what I feel is right, but also do my best to listen to what others have to say. If someone feels I am being rude as a result of this approach, please accept my apology. And in the end, the WBO is not governed by any single person and all major decisions are made by the Committee and various segments of the Contributor team.

I understand that for some players, hearing that a part you have might be banned would be disheartening. However, when we evaluate the Beyblade metagame, we look at it from an objective perspective where player skill or part availability is not an issue (except in extraordinary circumstances with parts such as Ωuter where it was the best Disk and also extremely difficult and unfair to obtain upon release. I advocated for it to be banned despite that fact that it personally affected me given that I owned Ωuter at the time; I wanted to be objective). To allow those factors to influence our decisions means to try and craft a metagame which suits the individual skill and collections of a specific segment of players; all of which vary from country to country and city to city. We are a worldwide organization, so the primary format of any series needs to be as objectively balanced as possible with those factors generally not being a consideration (of course, we do have other formats such as Burst Classic or Hasbro Burst Format which allow for other audiences to be catered to. And those are important in their own way).

And yeah, I get where you'd coming from with the suggestion for a local ban. There's just a couple issues:

1. No local bans are enforceable. It is not permitted to force players to not use specific parts unless it has been officially endorsed by the WBO (as we have in the past for Trial Bans on things such as Maximum Garuda). We even tried doing an unofficial local ban on Archer Hercules last July and ... it just didn't work. Too many people just wanted to–understandably so–keep using their aH.

2. A local ban would be valuable in many "should we ban X" type discussions, but this one in particular is unique in a certain sense given the dynamic between Hasbro and TAKARA-TOMY. It's clear that Hasbro Bearing will lose to a lot of same-spin TAKARA-TOMY opponents, so in that sense it is not overpowered at all. The issue arises–and I'm sorry as I know I will be repeating myself a bit here–with the fact that it can OS almost anything in opposite spin while also being virtually unburstable. Given that we offer 2 Points for Burst Finishes in the First Stage of our events, there is no Beyblade which should offer the safety of both beating basically anything in opposite spin and not having to worry about ever losing 2 Points. As I've said before, you shouldn't have the best of both worlds. It's just not good game design in my opinion.

And the results of banning Hasbro Bearing would be pretty clear since we already know what the best combos are in the game right now besides it. The only difference would be that there would not be a combo available to use which allows you burst invulnerability and the best LAD simultaneously, which I think is a positive outcome. There would indeed be more Hell Salamander, but hS isn't broken because it can be bursted.

Regardless, I'd love to try a 'local' ban, but it just isn't possible without the endorsement of the WBO as an organization (which again, is not my individual decision to make). I've done my best to support my words with a variety of test results here in this thread (which I know is something you've–rightfully so–advocated for yourself in the Burst Classic thread), so I do think that I've put in a lot more work than most people usually do when they try to advocate for banning something.

And to be clear: I'm not saying action should be taken at this particular juncture after seeing one (well sort of two with your info about Luinor Cup) additional set of results posted. Just that it caught my eye after having not thought about it much after the past couple months.

I know we aren't seeing completely eye-to-eye DeceasedCrab, but I appreciate you taking the time to let me know how you feel about all of this! I'm not trying to come across as rude to anyone at all ... just trying to encourage a dialogue, especially after a few months have passed and some new results have started to flow in. To me, the fact that this particular issue still inspires me to feel this way after a few months indicates to me that it really is a problem and not just something that I blindly advocated for a few months ago as some sort of knee-jerk reaction.
I just spent half an hour digging through every tournament combo report since August. It's hilarious and sad. aH hS and rP are constantly winning in every tournament except Meta Madness, where they were banned (it does work and it can happen). Atomic Bearing and Eternal are constantly overpowering every other tip. Exceptions to these include rare sightings of hard-to-get Xt+, hard-to-get Dead Hades, ChoZ-S, and the typical attack types you see in deck format. You don't see Balkesh B3 start to appear until recent months, not certain when it was released.

So if you ban bearing, Hasbro users are down to Atomic and Eternal-S for really good stamina/defense tips. Orbit and Revolve are outclassed.
If you ban Balkesh B3, Hasbro users will have to hope and pray they can make a semi-decent Sr3 or mG combo, since H4/S4/P4 are terrible.

The meta is in a bad spot and has been for about 8 months. Banning B3 or Bearing won't fix that, it'll just make it more TT-prejudiced and even more narrow, aH/hS/(rp)P/B3 would become aH/hS/(rp)P. Again.

But I understand that the lack of bursting is an issue. One of many. Go ahead and solve that with a ban if you want, we're still going to have a fairly narrow and boring meta. But I'll take that to the https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Potenti...-aH-and-rP thread.
By virtually unburstable, you mean B3 right? That is the only one that is besides G3, and that's not even good on Br. SrS3 can be burst on Br if you know what you're doing and I think if B3 Br is that much of an issue, then just ban B3, that would be the most logical solution.
A few questions to hopefully guide everyone’s thoughts on the decision

1. Is B3.Br really that different from hS.Xt+?

B3.Br is said to have two strong points - insane LAD, and insane burst resistance. hS.Xt+ is also similar - it has insane LAD, excellent burst resistance, excellent stamina. Are there any right spin attackers that can easily burst hS.Xt+? And do people even commonly use left-spin attackers to deal with hS.Xt+?


2. What matchups can B3.Br win, that hS.Xt+ cannot?

B3.Br seems to have a tiny edge over hS.Xt+ in terms of LAD. However, what are the combos that it can beat, that hS.Xt+ cannot? And are they common enough such that you’ll be at a disadvantage for taking hS.Xt+?


3. Can B3.Br be easily defeated by hS?

hS is extremely prevalent from the reports. B3.Br’s weakness, from what I read, is that it has bad stamina against same-spin opponents. If hS is a reliable counter to B3.Br, wouldn’t using B3.Br in itself be a risk already, due to the high probability of encountering a hS while using B3.Br?


4. Will banning B3.Br, inadvertently be forcing people to shell out money for TT beys?

B3 seems to be cheaper and more common than TT beys in where you guys hold WBO tournaments. By banning it, won’t you be banning one of the most accessible meta parts? That would be forcing players to dig their pockets and buy TT beys to stay competitive.


5. If banning B3.Br is a result of its performance in top3 lists, shouldn’t aH and especially hS be subjected to the same scrutiny?

aH has insane stamina and LAD, but is more suspect to burst than B3/hS due to its right-spinning nature (and the fact that most viable attack types are right-spin). hS, like discussed in (1), (2), and (3), also display a similar trait to B3. Why can these two be let off the hook while B3 becomes the scapegoat?
The point is literally going over your head, it's not about the part being OP, it's about it being fundamentally broken in the sense that it doesn't burst, is it really that hard to understand that? I had a press driver that made beys super tight and unburstable, even though it's a trash driver and it wouldn't help me win; just because of the fact that it didn't burst I wasn't able to use it in tournaments at all. It's the same scenario with Hasbro bearing, it's not that good of a part and has a hard counter that already has a huge presance in the meta the part is just literally broken.

Just to add on, the excuse of "being a Hasbro only player" is just sad, you're playing a p2w game so you have to be p2w to be relevant lol. Just cuz you refuse to pay a bit more (for better quality and better performance might I add) to import shouldn't be an excuse to be against a bearing ban. Really don't understand being a hasbro only player at all, buying pretty trash tier products and it being so easy to get things off the internet now a days makes 0 sense to me, but hey to each their own; don't mind me I'll just p2w to get the OP Japanese parts while you spend your money on this trash American company smile.
I think the problem with Kei's recent arguments to ban Hasbro Bearing is that the same issues apply to TT Bearing. Both practically auto-win in opposite spin matchups, so we shouldn't pretend that this is just Hasbro Bearing.

There's also the great counterpoint to a ban where people using hS is very common, which many people are still using Ds/Ds' and Xt+ (which has an offensive mode which could beat same spin Br, though someone should test this) on it.
Is TT bearing immune to bursting though lol, you completely missed his complementary point of auto winning against opposite spin and that being the fact that you don't have to worry about stuff like nL x' bursting you on Hasbro bearing. TT bearing gets destroyed by any attacker really but Hasbro on the other hand... Might as well forfit the match if you're only going for bursts.
I've only started playing since the beginning of the year so please excuse my lack of knowledge about the parts or competitive meta. Does H.Bearing make any Def/Stamina bey combo unburstable? If not, would an adequate option be to ban only the specific unburstable combinations but leaving H.Bearing alone otherwise?

An example scenario assuming H.Bearing does not make all combinations unburstable: The rules update that B3/SrS3/G3 and H.Bearing can't be used in the same combination. I could still use H.Bearing with existing layers like Fafnir F3 or Hercules H4 because they are still burstable. Possibly in the future of this scenario Hasbro releases a new layer that results in another unburstable combination with H.Bearing but it's only 1 new layer out of tens of new releases. The rules update to include the new layer in the restriction.

I think handling H.Bearing this way would resolve the issue of an unburstable combination existing while also leaving a strong part available to give lesser viable layers a chance to compete.
(Mar. 11, 2019  8:00 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: Is TT bearing immune to bursting though lol, you completely missed his complementary point of auto winning against opposite spin and that being the fact that you don't have to worry about stuff like nL x' bursting you on Hasbro bearing. TT bearing gets destroyed by any attacker really but Hasbro on the other hand... Might as well forfit the match if you're only going for bursts.

Does hS.Xt+ similarly have an auto win against opposite spin? And also have a negligible chance of bursting to nL.X'?
(Mar. 12, 2019  5:47 AM)KingSpin Wrote:
(Mar. 11, 2019  8:00 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: Is TT bearing immune to bursting though lol, you completely missed his complementary point of auto winning against opposite spin and that being the fact that you don't have to worry about stuff like nL x' bursting you on Hasbro bearing.  TT bearing gets destroyed by any attacker really but Hasbro on the other hand... Might as well forfit the match if you're only going for bursts.

Does hS.Xt+ similarly have an auto win against opposite spin? And also have a negligible chance of bursting to nL.X'?

dunno about you but i have an easy time with hS on any setup with both wV and nL.  That's just not possible against hasbro bearing though, i solely have to rely on a knockout and have no hope of getting a burst.  I had a small discussion with Kei and i completely forgot that burst is now worth 2 points in first stage, it's actually ridiculous that you can completely evade that by simply using a broken piece that makes your bey unburstable.  Like it's actually unfair, even cho-z stuff bursts sometimes and those have a gimmick to not burst, but this thing... never seen it pop once.  

The opposite spin "auto win" is out of the question, that's not what is being discussed here. It doesn't matter if the piece is op or not, this is only focusing on the fact that you have a bey that has the LAD of an hS combo while also being unburstable.
I get H Br next weekend and then I test this.
(Mar. 12, 2019  6:35 AM)1234beyblade Wrote: dunno about you but i have an easy time with hS on any setup with both wV and nL.  That's just not possible against hasbro bearing though, i solely have to rely on a knockout and have no hope of getting a burst.  I had a small discussion with Kei and i completely forgot that burst is now worth 2 points in first stage, it's actually ridiculous that you can completely evade that by simply using a broken piece that makes your bey unburstable.  Like it's actually unfair, even cho-z stuff bursts sometimes and those have a gimmick to not burst, but this thing... never seen it pop once.  
Wow that's interesting.. even against hS on Xt+? What are the burst rates like? In the multiple tournaments I joined, I have yet to see hS.Xt+ burst against attack types despite them being commonly used. More often than not, if the attack type isn't on a Dash driver, it would inflict a self-burst. Are your opponents launching hS.Xt+ too hard?

(Mar. 12, 2019  6:35 AM)1234beyblade Wrote: The opposite spin "auto win" is out of the question, that's not what is being discussed here. It doesn't matter if the piece is op or not, this is only focusing on the fact that you have a bey that has the LAD of an hS combo while also being unburstable.
Why is it out of the question? You mentioned it in an earlier post to justify a ban.. is it only relevant for banning B3.Br?

And B3.Br has the LAD of a hS combo, but does not have the same-spin stamina, or the weight to prevent KOs. Are those two easily-exploitable weaknesses not sufficient?
(easily exploitable as hS is extremely prevalent in the meta, and also ChoZ layers are significantly heavier than it to easily KO it)
I was infamous in toronto for my skill with wV and being able to easily beat hS even before dash drivers were a thing (I used bite). Yesterday i was testing with Kei against hS variants At/Xt/Br on wV X' and i basically had 100% win rate it just gets destroyed. The only bey that really causes me a decent amount of trouble is pP, that thing is just a tank; i couldn't win with wV at all but pP is a problem of its own LMAO it's the most broken (figuratively not literally like hasbro bearing) thing I've seen since D2. nL is even better than wV you literally don't need a brain to win with that against hS.

in regards to LAD being out of the question... i just mean it's the combination of both LAD and burst immunity that's the problem not just LAD, you know what i mean? it's like... you can't have half a person, you need the whole person to make a person and in this case you need both LAD and burst immunity to cause an issue which is what hasbro bearing is right now.

Also just cuz I can eXPloit your weight stat doesn't make you completely nullifying a 2 point way of winning okay, it's still an eXPloit and in any online game something that breaks the primary rule of the game would get patched right away. I used my press driver as an eXample before and i will once again, just because it's a really bad driver doesnt make it okay to use if it's unburstable. The part isn't op at all but because it breaks a fundamental rule of the game i'm not allowed to use it.