Potential of removing hS, aH, and rP?

EDIT NOTE: This post was originally from the Winning Combinations at WBO Events thread, and has been duplicated here to allow the continuation of the discussion without derailing the original thread so much. Please feel free to discuss why hS, aH, and rP should or shouldn't be banned from the metagame, or any alternative suggestions you may have in mind.

Meta Madness
London, UK - 27/10/18

Custom Ruleset: Archer Hercules, Hell Salamander, Revive Phoenix were banned from this event.

1st-  @[Basedsamuraij]
Crash Ragnaruk 7 Cross Zephyr'
Dead Hades 7 Cross Xtreme'
Arc Bahamut 7 Proof Absorb
Deep Chaos 7 Proof Absorb
Arc Bahamut 0 Proof Absorb (Deck Format Finals Only)
Bloody Longunus 10 Reach Xtreme' (Deck Format Finals Only)

2nd - @[Mashoga]
Drain Fafnir 7 Bump Atomic
Z Achilles 1' Hit Yielding
Dead Hades 0 Bump Zephyr'
Twin Nemesis 7 Dagger Destroy'

3rd - @[Mr LT]
Winning Valkyrie 1' Hit Xtreme'
Dead Hades 8 Bump Destroy'
Geist Fafnir 0 Proof Zephyr'
Bloody Longinus 12 Reach Hunter'
Z Achilles 13 Dagger Jolt
Orb Egis 7 Vortex Yielding

I don't really understand the opinion coming out of the Toronto event that the meta is in a good place. It isn't. It's fine to think it is, but it undeniably is in a stagnant state and needs a massive change. When all but one combo on the Winning Combos for that event utilise the three problem Layers (as has been the case for many months now), I find it really hard for anyone to justify saying that the meta is in a good place.

So now take a look at our recent London event, with all three of the problem combinations removed. See a massive difference in diversity of combinations there? Attack was far more prominent due to the removal of problem Layers. While Sr Bearing was still a thing, the increased amount of attack usage meant that it was being ragdolled around a lot of the time, and wasn't the most effective of choices. Even Sr Destroy' ended up being KO'd often, likely due to the difference in weight compared to some Cho-Z Layers.

Special mention to cR.7C.Z' for being the MVP combination of the event, as Jay can agree. I'd been toying around with it on Destroy' and Zephyr' throughout the day before settling on Zephyr due to it's better stamina and being a safer stalling option. It hits a nice balance between being a stamina staller and maintaining it's potential to KO opponents. 

Dead Hades has also proven to be an interesting attack choice as well, and the Layer itself seems to be have some decent stamina behind it. I absolutely cannot advise using it on a non-dash Driver though, haha. Gums are gums at the end of the day.

I won't talk a tonne here about the event as I know Jay intends to write a tournament report for this event, but I'm happy to answer some questions anyone may have. I'd firmly encourage other communities to try this custom banlist out though as, while it's drastic, I do think this is one of the best moves going forward to bring diversity and balance back to what is undeniably a stagnant and lacklustre stamina-dominated metagame.
Honestly, I've been of the opinion that Hell Salamander and Archer Hercules have needed a time out for a while, and man does removing them really bring out some diversity! Revive Phoenix is a lesser problem since it can easily be defeated if you can remove its armor early, but it might need a little sit out as well. Honestly, it amazes me how many layers suddenly become usable without these problems around.

I certainly didn't expect to see so Z Achilles here twice since I typically consider Winning Valkyrie to be a strict upgrade. The same goes with the amazing amount of God layers that found use. Deep Chaos and Arc Bahamut I could expect, and I could maybe push myself far enough to see Twin Nemesis too since it's a fairly unique attack layer, but I didn't expect to see Drain Fafnir in use over Spriggan Requiem.

Honestly, I think it's time to break up this stagnant meta and put some of these problem layers down for a trial ban and see how well things improve over a tournament or two. If it's as big of a change as this would insinuate, it'll be a good thing for everyone involved.
i’m in the mid-atlantic US, i also think the meta is in a good place right now.

but if we have enough people complaining about alpha beys, *maybe* it’s time for a limited format for burst?

however good luck balancing that out to suit everyone’s idea of what they think “limited burst” should mean...

aH and hS are the strongest layers in the game. speaking only for myself, i want to use the strongest parts available, at all times, always.

if certain players fetishize cR, aB, etc. they are free to play them. however I can’t support gimping the main format so a few folks can win with cR and aB. that’s gangsterism.

(Oct. 31, 2018  8:22 PM)MagikHorse Wrote: Honestly, it amazes me how many layers suddenly become usable without these problems. 

i wouldn’t be so fast to assume all those winning combos would exist for every tournment if aH/hS were banned. 

to me all those winning combos in london are more likely a sign of chaos and confusion, considering the ban was new for everyone. 

also, the results are tainted, imo, because the idea of this tournment was to put combo-diversity on display. it was a defacto protest tournament with an agenda. 

let’s think critically instead of just accepting things at face value.
(Oct. 31, 2018  8:36 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: i’m in the mid-atlantic US, i also think the meta is in a good place right now.

but if we have enough people complaining about alpha beys, *maybe* it’s time for a limited format for burst?

however good luck balancing that out to suit everyone’s idea of what they think “limited burst” should mean...

aH and hS are the strongest layers in the game. speaking only for myself, i want to use the strongest parts available, at all times, always.

if certain players fetishize cR, aB, etc. they are free to play them. however I can’t support gimping the main format so a few folks can win with cR and aB. that’s gangsterism.

(Oct. 31, 2018  8:22 PM)MagikHorse Wrote: Honestly, it amazes me how many layers suddenly become usable without these problems. 

i wouldn’t be so fast to assume all those winning combos would exist for every tournment if aH/hS were banned. 

to me all those winning combos in london are more likely a sign of chaos and confusion, considering the ban was new for everyone. 

also, the results are tainted, imo, because the idea of this tournment was to put combo-diversity on display. it was a defacto protest tournament with an agenda. 

let’s think critically instead of just accepting things at face value.

I’m fine with using strong parts too, but when a part is so strong that no other part can do anything to it, I don’t think it should be used
(Oct. 31, 2018  8:36 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: i wouldn’t be so fast to assume all those winning combos would exist for every tournment if aH/hS were banned. 

to me all those winning combos in london are more likely a sign of chaos and confusion, considering the ban was new for everyone. 

also, the results are tainted, imo, because the idea of this tournment was to put combo-diversity on display. it was a defacto protest tournament with an agenda. 

let’s think critically instead of just accepting things at face vhave alue.

Agreed with both points. The meta might be more balanced with the removal of aH, hS, and rP, but if they were to be banned, part diversity would be just as limited once people had time to test and adjust. At the end of the day, there can only be a couple layers of each type that are truly the most competitive for any given situation, and gF, dF, and tN, to name a few, wouldn't be considered viable. It's also interesting to note that some of the most competitive combos pre-Hell Salamander like Sr Br and eF Br aren't listed, which does lead me to believe that there was an effort not to use competitive stamina combos that would have had higher odds of winning in a meta with aH, hS, and rP banned.

If anything, I think this is a sign that a Limited format for Burst is long overdue.
(Oct. 31, 2018  6:39 PM)~Mana~ Wrote:

just loved these combos,they are great. Amazing how much diversity appeared with the ban of hS,aH and rP

Frostic Fox has attached a moderator notice to this post


Please try to avoid fully quoting large posts. I've gone ahead and edited the quote to be in a spoiler tag.
(Oct. 31, 2018  11:35 PM)The Supreme One Wrote:
(Oct. 31, 2018  8:36 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: i wouldn’t be so fast to assume all those winning combos would exist for every tournment if aH/hS were banned. 

to me all those winning combos in london are more likely a sign of chaos and confusion, considering the ban was new for everyone. 

also, the results are tainted, imo, because the idea of this tournment was to put combo-diversity on display. it was a defacto protest tournament with an agenda. 

let’s think critically instead of just accepting things at face vhave alue.

Agreed with both points. The meta might be more balanced with the removal of aH, hS, and rP, but if they were to be banned, part diversity would be just as limited once people had time to test and adjust. At the end of the day, there can only be a couple layers of each type that are truly the most competitive for any given situation, and gF, dF, and tN, to name a few, wouldn't be considered viable. It's also interesting to note that some of the most competitive combos pre-Hell Salamander like Sr Br and eF Br aren't listed, which does lead me to believe that there was an effort not to use competitive stamina combos that would have had higher odds of winning in a meta with aH, hS, and rP banned.

If anything, I think this is a sign that a Limited format for Burst is long overdue.

Acceptable opinions from both there. There was some disarray from people not knowing exactly what to use, but it did even out as the event progressed and people picked up on what was ideal to use (with it being Round Robin, there was plenty of time for people to figure it out). I wouldn't go as far as to say combo-diversity was basically forced though; I addressed Sr Bearing in my post, which honestly suffered from some of the KO potential going around. There were some participants that definitely did not want to use Sr Bearing out of protest, but those who did had a rough time overall, including myself.

I can't refute eF. We just didn't see it at all all day, and I can't say it was personally on my mind either. I used Sr Bearing to no success, I used tN Revolve to no success, I didn't even think about Forneus overall, but I question how it would've held up on Bearing against zA/wV Xtreme' anyway.

I'd agree that part diversity would decrease over time, but it'd most definitely decrease into less of a state of stamina hell overall without the big three stamina Layers. Burst Limited is a decent idea at this point as the meta is pretty appalling, though I'm very sure that there would be a lot of disagreement on how to go about even doing that.
(Oct. 31, 2018  8:36 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: i wouldn’t be so fast to assume all those winning combos would exist for every tournment if aH/hS were banned. 

to me all those winning combos in london are more likely a sign of chaos and confusion, considering the ban was new for everyone. 

also, the results are tainted, imo, because the idea of this tournment was to put combo-diversity on display. it was a defacto protest tournament with an agenda. 

let’s think critically instead of just accepting things at face value.
I never said all of these would be competitive, only that more layers have potential without these three problem layers and I liked seeing the diversity. Don't mistake that for a blanket statement that everything suddenly becomes possible and/or good because of this. That's taking what I've said and exaggerating it to an unreasonable level, not to mention assuming I didn't think about it at all. If you've seen me around, you know thinking is what I do.

Sure, a fair bit of these results are chaos (As I said, Z Achilles really doesn't belong on the competitive scene, and neither do many of those God layers), but that doesn't make their success any less legitimate for fighting through that chaos. Sure, things will change as the meta settles down and people discover (or rediscover) what is good, but that's hardly evidence that the meta won't be more open without some of these problem layers either. It's too early to tell for sure where the chips will fall with new parts still being released, but I know it'll allow for more experimentation for a while at the very minimum and break up the monotony of the exact same combinations time after time, and that's a good thing.

It's evident to me through the results and my own play at home that these layers have way too much power for Stamina, Defense, and Burst Resistance that altogether makes them nearly impossible to take down outside of themselves, similar to the robot from The Incredibles that can only be penetrated by itself. If that's your fancy that's fine, but I know I'm not the only one tired of seeing the same combinations (or tiny adjustments to them) on the leaderboards and don't agree that it's worth throwing out all type balances just to preserve a few of the most powerful layers that are way over the power level of anything else. If they had some sort of weakness I'd reconsider, but I've seen no such weaknesses in my own play with them, which is a major reason why I'd support a temporary ban at the least to see what becomes of it.

The one thing we're in agreement with is the need for a Limited format. Just like Metal Fight before it, designs have crept up in power to the point where it's been a little excessive for a while, and too many good parts are just outclassed because the same thing has been released with a slightly better design.  I wouldn't mind bringing some of those old classics back.
well the purpose of ban lists is to ensure that tournament players are still having fun.

again only speaking for myself, i think the current game is a better and deeper than ever.

ban lists are not intended to satisfy the theoretical ideal experience as imposed by people who do not attend tournaments, but read about them on the internet.
I am basically not for banning.  But here is a thought.  If there has to be a ban, how about banning specific things.

eg:  mG god chip rule
        Sr mode change rule
       
These are essentially nerfs.  

For example (not saying this is what should be done)
-aH can’t be paired with Et
-hS can’t be paired with Br and At

This way all parts stay in play.  Banning parts outright reduces diversity because there will just be less parts.  Banning certain combos can essentially nerf a layer without banning it outright.  aH on Br or Xt+ is not so hard to handle with attack IMO.  This may even force people to use some layers in interesting ways.   I just think I rather try nerfing something before banning it.  I rather not ban anything, but I also understand that compromise is life.  I don’t think anyone here is trying to make this game worse.  There are good arguments being made on both sides.

Hey! how’s everyone’s day going?
I'm SO down for a Burst Limited Format. Especially if it involves Single and Dual Layers, as it could actually give Hasbro a chance to shine. Especially since Layers like G2 and J2 got buffed and we literally have no idea how the Hasbro Exclusive Dual Layers would do against some of the best TT Single and Dual Layers of their time, you know?
(Nov. 01, 2018  4:28 AM)RedPanda2 Wrote: well the purpose of ban lists is to ensure that tournament players are still having fun.

again only speaking for myself, i think the current game is a better and deeper than ever.

ban lists are not intended to satisfy the theoretical ideal experience as imposed by people who do not attend tournaments, but read about them on the internet.

I'm just as welcome to my opinion and voice as you are, so there's no need for this holier-than-thou poking. That's just rude and insensitive. You're not the fun judge either, which is why things like this are open for debate to begin with. Disagree with me if you will, but don't sink down to these lows.
(Nov. 01, 2018  5:41 AM)MagikHorse Wrote:
(Nov. 01, 2018  4:28 AM)RedPanda2 Wrote: well the purpose of ban lists is to ensure that tournament players are still having fun.

again only speaking for myself, i think the current game is a better and deeper than ever.

ban lists are not intended to satisfy the theoretical ideal experience as imposed by people who do not attend tournaments, but read about them on the internet.

I'm just as welcome to my opinion and voice as you are, so there's no need for this holier-than-thou poking. That's just rude and insensitive. You're not the fun judge either, which is why things like this are open for debate to begin with. Disagree with me if you will, but don't sink down to these lows.

I stand by what I posted.  If you think it is rude to point out facts about uninformed opinions, that's on you.
(Nov. 01, 2018  8:01 AM)RedPanda2 Wrote:
(Nov. 01, 2018  5:41 AM)MagikHorse Wrote: I'm just as welcome to my opinion and voice as you are, so there's no need for this holier-than-thou poking. That's just rude and insensitive. You're not the fun judge either, which is why things like this are open for debate to begin with. Disagree with me if you will, but don't sink down to these lows.

I stand by what I posted.  If you think it is rude to point out facts about uninformed opinions, that's on you.

When it's totally uncalled for, yes, it's rude. It's just an attempt to unseat my view without actually discussing it through. The fact that you blocked me after our PMs last night testifies to more of the same and proves your motivations. Get off your high horse and actually argue the points, not try to take it out on my experience or lack thereof.

I may not know tournaments, but I can see the same evidence everyone else has and see that there's an obvious block with at least aH and hS that's causing issues and stagnation. I don't think rP is as bad as it can lose its armor and becomes much weaker in that state, but that's neither here nor there. In the past, every single part this powerful (D, D2, mG, Sr) wound up with a ban and ended up opening the meta up to everything else. I have no reason to expect anything but the same from this.
mG and Sr were banned as fallout from banning G3.  which was being spammed relentlessly at tournaments on atomic at the time.  G3 had forced everyone into running Sr Br, and endless spin stealing LAD matches are only fun for so long. further, cho-z had started and the initial line-up was also hampered by G3 use.

in hindsight the mG and Sr ban might be considered the prime example of why banning is such a hamfisted way of dealing with people complaining.

after all, the mG and Sr bans were pretty quickly in need of reversal based on TT’s releases .  artificially altering the game is necessary at times (D2), but it takes creates unintended consequences that will be quickly exploited by players anyways.  

TT has a plan for the game, they design it to work the way they intended it to.  therefore right now, the meta is exactly as TT intended it to be.  unlike hasbro, TT does care about hardcore tournament players.  I feel like I understand that based on actual attendance of WBO tournaments, rather than reading about them online.
(Nov. 01, 2018  2:05 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: mG and Sr where banned as fallout from banning G3.  which was being spammed relentlessly at tournaments on atomic at the time.  G3 had forced everyone into running Sr Br.  further, cho-z had started and the initial line-up was also hampered by G3 use.

in hindsight the mG and Sr ban might be considered the prime example of why banning is such a hamfisted way of dealing with people complaining.

after all, the mG and Sr bans were pretty quickly in need of reversal based on TT’s releases .  artificially altering the game is necessary at times, but it takes creates unintended consequences that will be quickly exploited by players anyways.  

TT has a plan for the game, they design it to work the way they intended it to.  therefore right now, the meta is exactly as TT intended it to be.  unlike hasbro, TT does care about hardcore tournament players.  I feel like I understand that based on actual attendance of WBO tournaments, rather than reading about them online.

But TT and Hasbro care nothing about how the Beyblades perform! They have a plan for what beyblades to release next, but they don’t care how much recoil or stamina it has, they just care that it spins and looks cool.
(Nov. 01, 2018  2:10 PM)Dt20000 Wrote:
(Nov. 01, 2018  2:05 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: mG and Sr where banned as fallout from banning G3.  which was being spammed relentlessly at tournaments on atomic at the time.  G3 had forced everyone into running Sr Br.  further, cho-z had started and the initial line-up was also hampered by G3 use.

in hindsight the mG and Sr ban might be considered the prime example of why banning is such a hamfisted way of dealing with people complaining.

after all, the mG and Sr bans were pretty quickly in need of reversal based on TT’s releases .  artificially altering the game is necessary at times, but it takes creates unintended consequences that will be quickly exploited by players anyways.  

TT has a plan for the game, they design it to work the way they intended it to.  therefore right now, the meta is exactly as TT intended it to be.  unlike hasbro, TT does care about hardcore tournament players.  I feel like I understand that based on actual attendance of WBO tournaments, rather than reading about them online.

But TT and Hasbro care nothing about how the Beyblades perform! They have a plan for what beyblades to release next, but they don’t care how much recoil or stamina it has, they just care that it spins and looks cool.

I think TT understands their hardcore customer and serves us exactly what we want.  I think cho-z is a great progression of what we have come to enjoy and expect from beyblade burst.

I know in iPhone years, 2 years is a long time.  but look how much better burst has become in that time.  WBO tournament popularity/competition/attendance is a reflection of that, imo.
(Nov. 01, 2018  2:14 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote:
(Nov. 01, 2018  2:10 PM)Dt20000 Wrote: But TT and Hasbro care nothing about how the Beyblades perform! They have a plan for what beyblades to release next, but they don’t care how much recoil or stamina it has, they just care that it spins and looks cool.

I think TT understands their hardcore customer and serves us exactly what we want.  I think cho-z is a great progression of what we have come to enjoy and expect from beyblade burst.

I know in iPhone years, 2 years is a long time.  but look how much better burst has become in that time.  WBO tournament popularity/attendance is a reflection of that, imo.

I agree that Cho-z is a worthy BEYBLADE burst system, but I think that we should have a limited burst format without Cho-z beyblades, so that the older beyblades can get chances to battle or the people who don’t want to buy cho-z can battle each other.
(Nov. 01, 2018  2:05 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: mG and Sr were banned as fallout from banning G3.  which was being spammed relentlessly at tournaments on atomic at the time.  G3 had forced everyone into running Sr Br, and endless spin stealing LAD matches are only fun for so long. further, cho-z had started and the initial line-up was also hampered by G3 use.

in hindsight the mG and Sr ban might be considered the prime example of why banning is such a hamfisted way of dealing with people complaining.

after all, the mG and Sr bans were pretty quickly in need of reversal based on TT’s releases .  artificially altering the game is necessary at times (D2), but it takes creates unintended consequences that will be quickly exploited by players anyways.  

TT has a plan for the game, they design it to work the way they intended it to.  therefore right now, the meta is exactly as TT intended it to be.  unlike hasbro, TT does care about hardcore tournament players.  I feel like I understand that based on actual attendance of WBO tournaments, rather than reading about them online.

The WBO probably doesn't want to ban things, cause people don't like feeling their purchase was meaningless. mG and Sr were banned because they were overpowered, otherwise, G3 would have just been banned like what we have right now.

mG and Sr were unbeatable at the time. Sr is still top tier today (primarily due to the lack of attack as it is risky). mG would be broken if people could use A-mold god chips on it (hence the limit on god chips for it).

mG was released in July '17. Cho-Z launched in March '18. That's 8 months for a counter. Sr was released in December '18. That's 3 months, and Sr beats out the first 4 Cho-Z releases except for wV. You can't call that quickly.

You can't say TT "has a plan and the meta is intended" when new releases are outclassed by older parts and make zero meta impact. All disks released in the Cho-Z era besides 10 are completely unviable (12 is laughable, but it can be argued that 1' would be used if the meta wasn't so defensive). Drivers like Jolt, Operate, and Friction making no impact either. Neither Amaterios, Vice Leopard, or Hazard Kerberus (layers) made a meta impact. Orb Egis (layer) hasn't and won't make a meta impact. The two most recent starters (Buster Xcalibur and Geist Fafnir) have all of their parts make zero impact. Do you really think TT intends to release new beys and new parts that no one wants to buy from a competitive standpoint if TT even cared about the meta?
(Nov. 02, 2018  2:42 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote:
(Nov. 01, 2018  2:05 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: mG and Sr were banned as fallout from banning G3.  which was being spammed relentlessly at tournaments on atomic at the time.  G3 had forced everyone into running Sr Br, and endless spin stealing LAD matches are only fun for so long. further, cho-z had started and the initial line-up was also hampered by G3 use.

in hindsight the mG and Sr ban might be considered the prime example of why banning is such a hamfisted way of dealing with people complaining.

after all, the mG and Sr bans were pretty quickly in need of reversal based on TT’s releases .  artificially altering the game is necessary at times (D2), but it takes creates unintended consequences that will be quickly exploited by players anyways.  

TT has a plan for the game, they design it to work the way they intended it to.  therefore right now, the meta is exactly as TT intended it to be.  unlike hasbro, TT does care about hardcore tournament players.  I feel like I understand that based on actual attendance of WBO tournaments, rather than reading about them online.

The WBO probably doesn't want to ban things, cause people don't like feeling their purchase was meaningless. mG and Sr were banned because they were overpowered, otherwise, G3 would have just been banned like what we have right now.

mG and Sr were unbeatable at the time. Sr is still top tier today (primarily due to the lack of attack as it is risky). mG would be broken if people could use A-mold god chips on it (hence the limit on god chips for it).

mG was released in July '17. Cho-Z launched in March '18. That's 8 months for a counter. Sr was released in December '18. That's 3 months, and Sr beats out the first 4 Cho-Z releases except for wV. You can't call that quickly.

You can't say TT "has a plan and the meta is intended" when new releases are outclassed by older parts and make zero meta impact. All disks released in the Cho-Z era besides 10 are completely unviable (12 is laughable, but it can be argued that 1' would be used if the meta wasn't so defensive). Drivers like Jolt, Operate, and Friction making no impact either. Neither Amaterios, Vice Leopard, or Hazard Kerberus (layers) made a meta impact. Orb Egis (layer) hasn't and won't make a meta impact. The two most recent starters (Buster Xcalibur and Geist Fafnir) have all of their parts make zero impact. Do you really think TT intends to release new beys and new parts that no one wants to buy from a competitive standpoint if TT even cared about the meta?

this entire post is pretty much wrong and/or irrelevant to my post.

if you don’t think mG and Sr weren’t swept up in the need to ban G3, you are weren’t there or weren’t paying attention.  that’s why they were banned.  it was a package deal.  remember mG had already survived the crucible of a trial ban, and returned.  it was only after G3 entered the fray did the whole thing get completely out of hand.

mG/G3 and Sr were beatable in their peak, but the manner in which you had to conform to accomplish that had grown stale and annoying.  this was a consensus that i also shared at the time.

you mentioned a timeline for the mG and Sr bans, go back a review the rules thread dates.  hS and aH came out not long after the mG and Sr bans went into effect.  you are bringing up irrelevant release dates, not the two i am referring to.  once we had case for the ban two layers (hS and aH) soon came out, making it unnecessary.

finally, you give a list of cho-z releases, assuming in order for TT to have a plan that serves the meta, each release must top the previous one.  TT has never worked like that, and it’s obvious i didn’t say that.  but if you doubt the strength TT has built into the meta game via cho-z releases (all parts), i don’t know what to tell you.
(Nov. 02, 2018  3:01 AM)RedPanda2 Wrote:
(Nov. 02, 2018  2:42 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: The WBO probably doesn't want to ban things, cause people don't like feeling their purchase was meaningless. mG and Sr were banned because they were overpowered, otherwise, G3 would have just been banned like what we have right now.

mG and Sr were unbeatable at the time. Sr is still top tier today (primarily due to the lack of attack as it is risky). mG would be broken if people could use A-mold god chips on it (hence the limit on god chips for it).

mG was released in July '17. Cho-Z launched in March '18. That's 8 months for a counter. Sr was released in December '18. That's 3 months, and Sr beats out the first 4 Cho-Z releases except for wV. You can't call that quickly.

You can't say TT "has a plan and the meta is intended" when new releases are outclassed by older parts and make zero meta impact. All disks released in the Cho-Z era besides 10 are completely unviable (12 is laughable, but it can be argued that 1' would be used if the meta wasn't so defensive). Drivers like Jolt, Operate, and Friction making no impact either. Neither Amaterios, Vice Leopard, or Hazard Kerberus (layers) made a meta impact. Orb Egis (layer) hasn't and won't make a meta impact. The two most recent starters (Buster Xcalibur and Geist Fafnir) have all of their parts make zero impact. Do you really think TT intends to release new beys and new parts that no one wants to buy from a competitive standpoint if TT even cared about the meta?

this entire post is pretty much wrong and/or irrelevant to my post.

if you don’t think mG and Sr weren’t swept up in the need to ban G3, you are weren’t there or weren’t paying attention.  that’s why they were banned.  it was a package deal.  remember mG had already survived the crucible of a trial ban, and returned.  it was only after G3 entered the fray did the whole thing get completely out of hand.

mG and Sr were beatable in their peak, but the manner in which you had to conform to accomplish that had grown stale and annoying.  this was a consensus that i also shared at the time.

you mentioned a timeline for the mG and Sr bans, go back a review the rules thread dates.  hS and aH came out not long after the mG and Sr bans went into effect.  you are bringing up irrelevant realize dates, not the two i am referring to.  once we had case for the ban, two layers soon came out, making it unnecessary.

finally, you give a list of cho-z releases, assuming in order for TT to have a plan that serves the meta each release must top the previous one.  TT has never worked like that, and it’s obvious i didn’t say that.  If you doubt the strength TT has built into the meta game via cho-z releases (all parts), i don’t know what to tell you.


i see you are new here with your first post.  i really hope you didn’t go through all the trouble of making a new account just to post the above Smile

either way, welcome

Then why is mG and Sr unbanned right now, but not G3? If the bans aren't independent as you claim, you should have a reason for why there is a difference now?

If the meta becomes a few overpowered parts and their counters, the meta is stale and unbalanced.

You said, "the mG and Sr bans were pretty quickly in need of reversal based on TT’s releases ." I gave dates for the release of both of those beys and the dates of what would cause the ban to be reversed. You might not understand, but parts aren't overpowered the moment they're banned. They've always been overpowered since release. Very very very few things break this law of design.

You claimed TT wants the meta the way it is, but the meta isn't profitable for them and has been stagnant through all the releases I've stated. That's a sign that if TT cared about the meta they wouldn't make releases that literally do nothing. You either have to conclude that TT doesn't care about the meta or is terrible at predicting it, which are either negligence or discontent of the current meta. There isn't a reasoning that shows TT likes the current meta when it would lose them money.
(Nov. 02, 2018  3:01 AM)RedPanda2 Wrote:
(Nov. 02, 2018  2:42 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: The WBO probably doesn't want to ban things, cause people don't like feeling their purchase was meaningless. mG and Sr were banned because they were overpowered, otherwise, G3 would have just been banned like what we have right now.

mG and Sr were unbeatable at the time. Sr is still top tier today (primarily due to the lack of attack as it is risky). mG would be broken if people could use A-mold god chips on it (hence the limit on god chips for it).

mG was released in July '17. Cho-Z launched in March '18. That's 8 months for a counter. Sr was released in December '18. That's 3 months, and Sr beats out the first 4 Cho-Z releases except for wV. You can't call that quickly.

You can't say TT "has a plan and the meta is intended" when new releases are outclassed by older parts and make zero meta impact. All disks released in the Cho-Z era besides 10 are completely unviable (12 is laughable, but it can be argued that 1' would be used if the meta wasn't so defensive). Drivers like Jolt, Operate, and Friction making no impact either. Neither Amaterios, Vice Leopard, or Hazard Kerberus (layers) made a meta impact. Orb Egis (layer) hasn't and won't make a meta impact. The two most recent starters (Buster Xcalibur and Geist Fafnir) have all of their parts make zero impact. Do you really think TT intends to release new beys and new parts that no one wants to buy from a competitive standpoint if TT even cared about the meta?

this entire post is pretty much wrong and/or irrelevant to my post.

if you don’t think mG and Sr weren’t swept up in the need to ban G3, you are weren’t there or weren’t paying attention.  that’s why they were banned.  it was a package deal.  remember mG had already survived the crucible of a trial ban, and returned.  it was only after G3 entered the fray did the whole thing get completely out of hand.

mG and Sr were beatable in their peak, but the manner in which you had to conform to accomplish that had grown stale and annoying.  this was a consensus that i also shared at the time.

you mentioned a timeline for the mG and Sr bans, go back a review the rules thread dates.  hS and aH came out not long after the mG and Sr bans went into effect.  you are bringing up irrelevant realize dates, not the two i am referring to.  once we had case for the ban, two layers soon came out, making it unnecessary.

finally, you give a list of cho-z releases, assuming in order for TT to have a plan that serves the meta each release must top the previous one.  TT has never worked like that, and it’s obvious i didn’t say that.  If you doubt the strength TT has built into the meta game via cho-z releases (all parts), i don’t know what to tell you.


i see you are new here with your first post.  i really hope you didn’t go through all the trouble of making a new account just to post the above Smile

either way, welcome

Regardless of if his post fully addresses/ is relevant to yours, the point he's illustrating is still pretty solid. It makes no logical sense for TT to want to spike certain releases with Top-tier meta goodness, and then leave releases like Buster Xcalibur out to dry. I highly doubt Takada Tomy wanted to completely phase out an entire type in the meta, especially since Attack types have always been some of their most popular releases. 

The meta we have now lacks diversity, there's no way around that fact. However, I do enjoy using the current mainstay layers in the meta like Hercules and Salamander. That being said, it's not fun for people to play a game where around 4 or 5 layers out of the dozen plus we have, are the only ones even worth looking at. The London tournament where the 3 problem layers were banned seemed like a genuinely fun and balanced tournament that didn't use the same ludicrous top tier copypasta combos. 

I for one want to see a more balanced meta where there's diversity and the universal idea of using more than 3 almost broken layers (a simple subjective opinion). What we have now really doesn't show off the skill and passion that can go into the game, it just shows off how we all bought the same 6 or 7 releases. 

I think discussions like this are great so long as we can hear each other out, and while I think both you and Air King Neo threw in some good points, I agree that the meta is kind of a trainwreck.
That point about having new releases constantly having no competitive value is good enough for people complaining for Hasbro's metal-free Switchstrike beys, but not Takara-Tomy when they outclass everything with a handful of parts with no end in sight? Excuse me, but what?

And attacking a person because they're new when they clearly did their research beforehand? I'm still not mad, but boy am I disappointed with RedPanda's increasing number of ad hominem attacks. That has no place on this forum (or anywhere else for that matter), and they need to get out of this discussion entirely.
(Nov. 02, 2018  3:18 AM)Infinity-Z Wrote:
(Nov. 02, 2018  3:01 AM)RedPanda2 Wrote: this entire post is pretty much wrong and/or irrelevant to my post.

if you don’t think mG and Sr weren’t swept up in the need to ban G3, you are weren’t there or weren’t paying attention.  that’s why they were banned.  it was a package deal.  remember mG had already survived the crucible of a trial ban, and returned.  it was only after G3 entered the fray did the whole thing get completely out of hand.

mG and Sr were beatable in their peak, but the manner in which you had to conform to accomplish that had grown stale and annoying.  this was a consensus that i also shared at the time.

you mentioned a timeline for the mG and Sr bans, go back a review the rules thread dates.  hS and aH came out not long after the mG and Sr bans went into effect.  you are bringing up irrelevant realize dates, not the two i am referring to.  once we had case for the ban, two layers soon came out, making it unnecessary.

finally, you give a list of cho-z releases, assuming in order for TT to have a plan that serves the meta each release must top the previous one.  TT has never worked like that, and it’s obvious i didn’t say that.  If you doubt the strength TT has built into the meta game via cho-z releases (all parts), i don’t know what to tell you.


i see you are new here with your first post.  i really hope you didn’t go through all the trouble of making a new account just to post the above :)

either way, welcomeIt makes no logical sense for TT to want to spike certain releases with Top-tier meta goodness, and then leave releases like Buster Xcalibur out to dry. I highly doubt Takada Tomy wanted to completely phase out an entire type in the meta, especially since Attack types have always been some of their most popular releases. 

It makes no logical sense for TT to want to spike certain releases with Top-tier meta goodness, and then leave releases like Buster Xcalibur out to dry. I highly doubt Takada Tomy wanted to completely phase out an entire type in the meta, especially since Attack types have always been some of their most popular releases. 

what are you basing this on?

further, an attack type is part of almost every single finals deck
they might not need to be used, so they don’t end up in this thread as a winning combo

but the attack type is not phased out at all, attack types are required equipment in the current meta

if you don’t run some kind of attack threat, you are taking huge risks
(Nov. 02, 2018  3:47 AM)RedPanda2 Wrote:
(Nov. 02, 2018  3:18 AM)Infinity-Z Wrote: It makes no logical sense for TT to want to spike certain releases with Top-tier meta goodness, and then leave releases like Buster Xcalibur out to dry. I highly doubt Takada Tomy wanted to completely phase out an entire type in the meta, especially since Attack types have always been some of their most popular releases. 

what are you basing this on?

further, an attack type is part of almost every single finals deck
they might not need to be used, so they don’t end up in this thread as a winning combo

but the attack type is not phased out at all, attack types are required equipment in the current meta

if you don’t run some kind of attack threat, you are taking huge risks

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http://prntscr.com/ldd48r 
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As you can clearly see, most tops include extremely little amounts of attack. These are the last 9 tournaments that have been posted (besides the one banning aH, hS, and rP).

Attack is needed in every deck to counter the Br driver, but that just shows the meta is made up of the best parts and their counters which I said earlier is an unhealthy meta.