Ban Hasbro Bearing?

Hey guys, this started out as a discussion in Spryzen Requiem S3 Testing and Discussion, but I feel it would quickly de-rail the purpose of that thread, so I decided to make a new thread to discuss the issue of Hasbro Bearing.

See the initial posts below and my latest response:



(Jan. 01, 2019  1:52 AM)Wombat Wrote: Did some testing that @[kjrules17] wanted me to do, since he currently can't meet up with @[LazerBeamz]. Since we already know that Spryzen Requiem's light weight and higher recoil design means it can't compete with Hell Salamander or Archer Hercules in same spin matchups, the only reason to leave it banned would be if its defensive potential was that much greater than either hS or aH.

First, I did a benchmark of bL KO Attack vs hS:
Bloody Longinus 8Under Xtreme' vs Hell Salamander 0Wall Bearing
bL.8U.X': 15 wins (4 KO, 1 OS, 10 Burst)
hS.0W.Br: 5 wins (all OS)
hS.0W.Br win rate: 25%
This matchup was fun to test, but it was a pain to have to re-assemble hS the correct way every 10 seconds lol. When I got the launch right, most of the bursts happened in one hit or were simultaneous burst/KOs.

Bloody Longinus 8Under Xtreme' vs Spryzen Requiem (Left Spin) S3 0Wall Bearing
bL.8U.X': 9 wins (6 KO, 2 OS, 1 Burst)
SrS3.0W.Br: 11 wins (all OS)
SrS3.0W.Br win rate: 55%
Those outspins would probably not happen if I had gone with a better Frame for same spin matchups, Wall tended to scrape a lot when it was knocked off balance.

Then I tried a stationary Burst Attacker against it, to see if it would be more consistent in bursting it.
Bloody Longinus 5Glaive Weight vs Spryzen Requiem (Left Spin) 0Star Bearing
bL.5G.W: 16 wins (3 KO, 9 OS, 4 Burst)
SrS3.0S.Br: 4 wins (all OS)
2 ties redone
SrS3.0S.Br win rate: 20%
Wow, this was a really unexpected result. bL didn't burst Spryzen Requiem as consistently as it could the TT Sr,  but often times it was able to use the shape of the dragon heads to push it down and outspin it. Spryzen's outspins came from when it was launched second, and were usually very close. I informally tested this same matchup but with B3 about a week ago and I was getting pretty similar results, so I'm starting to think that stationary bL might have some Smash Attack potential.

Just for fun, I also tried it in right spin against "No Longer Alive" Hades:
Dead Hades 8'Dagger Xtreme' vs Spryzen Requiem (Right Spin) S3 0Star Bearing
dH.8'D.X': 14 wins (9 KO, 5 OS)
SrS3.0S.Br: 6 wins (all OS)
1 tie redone
SrS3.0S.Br win rate: 30%

(Jan. 01, 2019  3:21 AM)Kei Wrote: One burst with bL X’ against Sr Br is really concerning to me. You should never be that safe with Br against an X’ attack combo in the same spin direction as you.

I’m testing dF and B3 Br right now and can’t burst them either. In fact, I can’t even get them to lose much of anything at all on their slope.

It makes me wonder what the argument is for keeping Hasbro Bearing in the game, nevermind Sr. I’d be more inclined to allow Sr again if Hasbro Br was banned. The discrepancy in the spring tightness–and therefore, performance–versus the TT Br seems like too much.

Curious to hear what others think who have more experience with Hasbro parts.

(Jan. 01, 2019  8:59 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Jan. 01, 2019  3:21 AM)Kei Wrote: One burst with bL X’ against Sr Br is really concerning to me. You should never be that safe with Br against an X’ attack combo in the same spin direction as you.

I’m testing dF and B3 Br right now and can’t burst them either. In fact, I can’t even get them to lose much of anything at all on their slope.

It makes me wonder what the argument is for keeping Hasbro Bearing in the game, nevermind Sr. I’d be more inclined to allow Sr again if Hasbro Br was banned. The discrepancy in the spring tightness–and therefore, performance–versus the TT Br seems like too much.

Curious to hear what others think who have more experience with Hasbro parts.

To be fair, I am using a rubber Attack Driver, which isn't normally supposed to be bursting things due to the high amount of friction is has with the ground. As you can see, more dedicated Burst Attackers have a higher chance of bursting SrS3 Br - the tradeoff of using something like X' is that you sacrifice some of your bursting ability for a better chance to KO an opposite spin opponent (though at this point in Burst standard, that's still not very likely... I wouldn't have a ton of faith in bL X' being able to KO aH Xt+ or wV/dH X' KOing hS Xt+ consistently).

Personally, I'm opposed to removing Hasbro Bearing from the game. It's basically the only part that allows Hasbro combos to be viable in the Takara-Tomy meta, and even then its uses are limited to opposite spin. With the only Layers that are viable with Hasbro Bearing (Caynox C3, G3, SrS3, and B3) being relatively light compared to the Cho Z releases, they not only lose in same spin Stamina matches but are also relatively easy to KO. In my opinion, it makes the Hasbro Layers viable sidegrades to aH and hS (more burst resistance at the cost of Stamina and opposite spin performance) while not making them too overcentralizing.

(Jan. 01, 2019  10:28 AM)kjrules17 Wrote: I 100% agree with Wombat here. We already got oofed big time because of Turbo, banning Hasbro Bearing would just be adding insult to injury, you know?

Wombat I definitely get where you're coming from, but it's also our responsibility to ensure poorly and carelessly designed parts like Hasbro Bearing don't negatively impact the metagame from an objective perspective. Hasbro Bearing being beneficial for Hasbro players should carry no weight in this type of discussion.

I find it hard to resolve the idea in my head that it is OK for a part with the best LAD in the game to also have the best burst resistance. It means it can win opposite spin match-ups and stand a great chance of winning against Attack in both spin directions. Especially in the first stage where KOs are worth 1 Point, that's particularly deadly.

You point about using X' versus "more dedicated Burst Attackers" holds some truth, but in this case the difference should be negligible because Bearing shouldn't be that burst resistant to begin with, and the TAKARA-TOMY version isn't. For good reason. And I trust TAKARA-TOMY's reasoning for the way they make their parts a lot more than Hasbro.

If TAKARA-TOMY Bearing was as difficult to burst as Hasbro Bearing, you can bet there would have been talk of banning it. To say Hasbro Bearing shouldn't be banned seems to me like we are setting a double standard here. Yes, there are circumstances surrounding Hasbro Bearing that make it less of a threat because of things like how light the Hasbro Layers are currently, but it doesn't change the fact that for the sake of overall game balance, a virtually unburstable Bearing should not exist in the game nevertheless.

Curious to hear what you all think. Thanks!
I guess, but even with Br's good burst resistance, its still easy to KO. Ive though of the Br ban before, but the argument that hasbro doesn't have the ability to compete in opposite spin anymore always makes me think it would be a negative change. Think of it this way: without Br, hasbro players can't win opposite spin, can't compete with stamina without getting bursted and really can't do anything to TT beys like hS, aH, and rP. Considering turbo is bad, hasbro doesn't have the weight to compete. Hasbro already can't really compete with attack beys, without Br defence isn't as viable because of the lack of LAD and burst resistance, now, if Br gets banned, hasbro won't have stamina or equalizing either. And if Br is such a problem, what about Xt+? I'm not able to burst or KO aH or hS on Xt+, so if hasbro's Br is such a problem that it gets considered a ban, shouldn't we look at Xt+ the same way? If you want to ban Hasbro Br, fine, but you would also have to ban TT Br, Xt+, and hS because it would make hasbro still viable in opposite spin, and you'd need to ban aH and maybe rP because that would make hasbro, and even some TT beys more viable in right spin. Also, its not Br making B3, F3, and SrS3 unburstable, they already are pretty much. And if you still think you need to ban hasbro Br, than you may need to think it over a bit more because removing hasbro's one ticket to viablitity, would make the meta less balanced, since hasbro beys aren't good, hasbro players like myself wouldn't have a chance, therefore, the meta would become TT centralized. And just to end, for hasbro players, Br is mostly about opposite spin and not burst resistance, if you remove Br, hasbro players won't have a chance against the many strong TT beys out there. Also, hS can pretty much beat anything left spin from hasbro keep in mind. Thanks for your time, have a good day.
I am generally against bans and believe there has to be overwhelming evidence that a part is a problem before banning. I believe other WBO members have expressed concerns about bans and the “unintended consequences” bans may have. I believe this came up quite a bit in the aH, hS, and rP ban discussion. I don’t think we are seeing Hasbro Br truly dominating the winning combos like Sr once did. Does Hasbro Br really need to be banned because it is a major problem right now?
(Jan. 01, 2019  11:15 PM)Shindog Wrote: I am generally against bans and believe there has to be overwhelming evidence that a part is a problem before banning.  I believe other WBO members have expressed concerns about bans and the “unintended consequences” bans may have.  I believe this came up quite a bit in the aH, hS, and rP ban discussion.  I don’t think we are seeing Hasbro Br truly dominating the winning combos like Sr once did.  Does Hasbro Br really need to be banned because it is a major problem right now?

the potential banning of hasbro Br vs. the potential banning of aH, hS, and rP are completely different concepts here. 

one might argue hasbro Br, itself, is a one giant     “unintended consequence”. but rather than WBO rules as a culprit, it’s hasbro’s lazy and tone deaf design choices. 

it’s a ridiculous, broken part. it strays far from the obvious intentions/limitations of the TT part. frankly that irritates me.  so in principle, i believe banning hasbro Br at least needs to be discussed. 

however as an “outcomes” focused person, i’m unsure if adding this part to the banlist will have much of an impact either way.
(Jan. 01, 2019  11:57 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote:
(Jan. 01, 2019  11:15 PM)Shindog Wrote: I am generally against bans and believe there has to be overwhelming evidence that a part is a problem before banning.  I believe other WBO members have expressed concerns about bans and the “unintended consequences” bans may have.  I believe this came up quite a bit in the aH, hS, and rP ban discussion.  I don’t think we are seeing Hasbro Br truly dominating the winning combos like Sr once did.  Does Hasbro Br really need to be banned because it is a major problem right now?

the potential banning of hasbro Br vs. the potential banning of aH, hS, and rP are completely different concepts here. 

one might argue hasbro Br, itself, is a one giant     “unintended consequence”. but rather than WBO rules as a culprit, it’s hasbro’s lazy and tone deaf design choices. 

it’s a ridiculous, broken part.  it strays far from the obvious intentions/limitations of the TT part. frankly that irritates me.  so in principle, i believe banning hasbro Br at least needs to be discussed. 

however as an “outcomes” focused person, i’m unsure if adding this part to the banlist will have much of an impact either way.

I recall some of the strongest arguments to ban aH was that it combins good stamina and defense?

Does Hasbro Br not combine good stamina and defense?
I agree with Shindog in that Hasbro Bearing certainly isn't dominating winning combos enough to be a problem. That being said, I feel much more comfortable banning Hasbro Bearing than banning Balkesh B3 and keeping Spryzen Requeim S3 banned, which is necessary for the time being if Hasbro Bearing sticks around. It really is a poor design choice to give it the burst resistance that it has, and by banning just the driver, there will be less of a need to ban competitive Hasbro layers in the future, which benefits bladers who use Hasbro more overall.

Re Shindog: I was against banning Archer Hercules because it sets off a chain reaction in which we also have to ban Hell Salamander and Revive Phoenix (maybe even Cho-Z Spriggan) to maintain a balanced meta. The benefit to banning just the driver is that there won't be this sort of chain-reaction banning because it affects all layers.
I did a couple sets of tests:

Test Conditions
- 5-10 rounds each with no ties redone. Just to give an impression of the way these match-ups would likely play out.
- Alternating launches for stamina match-ups, B3 launched first vs bL and nL
- BeyLauncher LR + Launcher Grip for nL/bL, BeyLaunchers for all other Beyblades
- Medium strength launch for Balkesh B3 against nL/bL
- Weak launch in Balkesh B3 vs aH and 超S matches

Test Results
Archer Hercules 0 Cross Xtend Plus vs. Balkesh B3 0 Wall Bearing
aH.0C.Xt+: 0 Wins
B3.0W.Br: 8 Wins (8 OS)
2 Draws
B3 Win Percentage: 100%

Archer Hercules 0 Turn Bearing vs. Balkesh B3 0 Turn Bearing
aH.0T.Br: 2 Wins (2 OS)
B3.0T.Br: 6 Wins (6 OS)
2 Draws
B3 Win Percentage: 75%

I swapped the 0T half way through this first set. To make sure the TT aH or Bearing weren't putting it at a disadvantage for some reason I did five more rounds with a different aH and TT Bearing:

Archer Hercules 0 Turn Bearing vs. Balkesh B3 0 Turn Bearing
aH.0T.Br: 0 Wins
B3.0T.Br: 3 Wins (3 OS)
2 Draws
B3 Win Percentage: 100%

Cho-Z Spriggan 0 Turn Bearing (Right-Spin) vs. Balkesh B3 0 Turn Bearing
超S.0T.Br: 0 Wins
B3.0T.Br: 5 Wins (5 OS)
B3 Win Percentage: 100%

Nightmare Longinus Reach Xtreme Dash vs. Balkesh B3 0 Turn Bearing
nL.R.X’: 5 Wins (2 OS, 3 KO)
B3.0T.Br: 5 Wns (5 OS)
B3 Win Percentage: 50%

Bloody Longinus 5 Reach Xtreme Dash vs Balkesh B3 0 Turn Bearing
bL.5R.X’: 3 Wins (3 KO)
B3.0T.Br: 7 Wins (7 OS)
B3 Win Percentage: 70%

Key Takeaways
  • Balkesh B3 on Br never bursted. It also never really moved much on its slope, if at all.
  • Despite the weight difference, Hasbro Bearing combos (at least using B3) don't seem to have trouble competing in opposite spin match-ups with TT Bearing-based opponents.
  • B3.0T.Br wasn't that easy to KO. It requires a pretty perfect launch in order to do it; otherwise, it just deflects everything after the first few seconds. The softer plastic used for B3 (and Hasbro Beyblades in general) probably helps a bit with this. The feeling you get when your Attack type hits this thing is completely different than the TT counterpart or things like hS.



(Jan. 01, 2019  10:41 PM)bladekid Wrote: Ive though of the Br ban before, but the argument that hasbro doesn't have the ability to compete in opposite spin anymore always makes me  think it would be a negative change. Think of it this way: without Br, hasbro players can't win opposite spin, can't compete with stamina without getting bursted and really can't do anything to TT beys like hS, aH, and rP. Considering turbo is bad, hasbro doesn't have the weight to compete.

(Jan. 01, 2019  10:41 PM)bladekid Wrote: And if you still think you need to ban hasbro Br, than you may need to think it over a bit more because removing hasbro's one ticket to viablitity, would make the meta less balanced, since hasbro beys aren't good, hasbro players like myself wouldn't have a chance, therefore, the meta would become TT centralized

The unfortunate reality is that when making decisions for what's best in our regular Burst Format, what must take precedence is ensuring it is balanced objectively. If we factor in the idea that Hasbro players might not be able to compete as well with a certain part banned, then we are allowing the game to become ruled by something which has no relevance to the actual gameplay balance from an objective perspective. This situation is comparable to what we went through with Garuda G3; banning that impacted Hasbro players negatively, but it made the Burst Format itself better.

Hasbro players have Hasbro Burst Format available too for them to play each other on a level playing field, which is another reason why I don't think their ability to compete should be mentioned in this discussion.

(Jan. 01, 2019  10:41 PM)bladekid Wrote: Hasbro already can't really compete with attack beys, without Br defence isn't as viable because of the lack of LAD and burst resistance, now, if Br gets banned, hasbro won't have stamina or equalizing either.

Hasbro would still have Atomic. That part is still quite burst resistant too, but I'm more OK with it because it doesn't have the best LAD in the game like Bearing does.

(Jan. 01, 2019  10:41 PM)bladekid Wrote: And if Br is such a problem, what about Xt+? I'm not able to burst or KO aH or hS on Xt+, so if hasbro's Br is such a problem that it gets considered a ban, shouldn't we look at Xt+ the same way?

Do you have Xtreme'? If so, you shouldn't have much issue KOing or Bursting aH or hS on Xt+.

(Jan. 01, 2019  10:41 PM)bladekid Wrote: Also, its not Br making B3, F3, and SrS3 unburstable, they already are pretty much.

I think it's a combination of the two, but yeah I mean ... all three of the Layers themselves are pretty difficult to burst. That's another issue to discuss, but like I said above, it would become less of an issue if Hasbro Bearing wasn't available because then players wouldn't have the ability to use a Beyblade with both the best LAD and burst resistance in the game simultaneously.

(Jan. 01, 2019  11:15 PM)Shindog Wrote: I am generally against bans and believe there has to be overwhelming evidence that a part is a problem before banning.  I believe other WBO members have expressed concerns about bans and the “unintended consequences” bans may have.  I believe this came up quite a bit in the aH, hS, and rP ban discussion.  I don’t think we are seeing Hasbro Br truly dominating the winning combos like Sr once did.  Does Hasbro Br really need to be banned because it is a major problem right now?

Yeah, I definitely hear you. However, one of the key points that has consistently been present for all bans in regular formats to date is that the part in question possessed too much stamina and defense simultaneously. I would say Hasbro Bearing fits that bill precisely; it just can't be healthy for something with the best LAD to also have the best burst resistance (and also decent KO defense).

I mean, just look at Wombat's benchmark of bL X' vs. hS Br and compare it to his bL X' vs SrS3 Br. The win rate difference is significant and the difference in burst resistance is enormous.

A part dominating in tournaments is one thing, but sometimes you have to look beyond that. We should be seeing more Xtreme Dash in the winning combinations, but whether because of player inexperience or inability to obtain the part currently, we haven't seen a ton of it. But that doesn't change the fact that it's an extremely good part when looking at the game from an objective perspective where part availability or actual tournament results aren't factored in. The same thing goes for Hasbro Bearing here. You have to think about what the implications of a Driver having both the best LAD and best burst resistance are. It shouldn't exist, and that's why TT didn't give their Bearing a strong spring.
(Jan. 02, 2019  12:08 AM)Shindog Wrote:
(Jan. 01, 2019  11:57 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: the potential banning of hasbro Br vs. the potential banning of aH, hS, and rP are completely different concepts here. 

one might argue hasbro Br, itself, is a one giant     “unintended consequence”. but rather than WBO rules as a culprit, it’s hasbro’s lazy and tone deaf design choices. 

it’s a ridiculous, broken part.  it strays far from the obvious intentions/limitations of the TT part. frankly that irritates me.  so in principle, i believe banning hasbro Br at least needs to be discussed. 

however as an “outcomes” focused person, i’m unsure if adding this part to the banlist will have much of an impact either way.

I recall some of the strongest arguments to ban aH was that it combins good stamina and defense?

Does Hasbro Br not combine good stamina and defense?

the ban discussion you referenced was aH/hS/rP as a combo-ban.

now you are talking about individual issues with a layer, again two different concepts.

wow those are some brutal test results, Kei. i didn’t realize.
(Jan. 02, 2019  12:20 AM)RedPanda2 Wrote:
(Jan. 02, 2019  12:08 AM)Shindog Wrote: I recall some of the strongest arguments to ban aH was that it combins good stamina and defense?

Does Hasbro Br not combine good stamina and defense?

the ban discussion you referenced was aH/hS/rP as a combo-ban.

now you are talking about individual issues with a layer, again two different concepts.

wow those are some brutal test results, Kei. i didn’t realize.
Pretty sure aH ban has been discussed prior to the combo ban.

See “Archer Hercules Ban discussion” thread
I think that at least in the Hasbro only format it should be banned. There is almost no way that these new turbo beys stand a chance against hasbro bearing. In the TT format I am on the fence. With the new Cho Z Awakened beys TT Bearing is given more of a chance to shine. Hasbro's bearing is more powerful than most drivers for sure, but I don't know if it deserves a full ban as of now, or at least until more thorough testing of both Hasbro Bearing and TT Bearing on Cho Z Awakened layers is done
You bring up some good points, but let me explain. 1: Sure, hasbro players have the hasbro format, but when is the last time they have had one? There are not really enough competitive hasbro players so it isn't worth while. I asked oldschool about it and he said he doubts another one will happen anytime soon. 2: Yes, hasbro has At, but its not good enough and doesn't even have that good burst resistance. I made a combo, J3.7S.Gr, that was easily able to beat strong B3 and F3 combos and its able to beat dF.P.Ds and almost tie with F3 Br. However, I tried this combo against ardmore blader's hS At, and it lost, showing how big a disadvantage hasbro is at in opposite spin. 3: No, I don't have X' because I use hasbro. Just like TT has a tough time against hasbro Br combos, hasbro has just as much, if not more trouble beating Xt+ combos. Most hasbro beys are too light to be used for attack, so I can't really beat it.
4: yes it having both LAD and burst resistance is bad, but you have to think of the fact that removing the piece with the best LAD is severely handicapping hasbro players. Think of it this way: if its a opposite spin match and the best I have is Ds, you could beat me with anything Ds and better, I can't compete. As I said, you would need to remove both Xt+ and TT Br if you take out hasbro Br, because if not the playing field won't be level. With the G3 ban, its fine because I have other options. With the Br ban, I won't because its the only piece like it LAD wise. So its either none of the drivers banned, or all 3. Thanks for your time.
I don't buy into any bans in general. By banning any "op" parts all you do is make the next level "op" parts the best. If you look at winning combos the overwhelming majority are the same combos that spread through the meta. So whether you ban parts or not it's still going to be a consistent set of winning combos. Just let the "op" parts be "op", it will make it easier and more fun for the average blader to have success and enjoy tournaments.
(Jan. 01, 2019  10:41 PM)bladekid Wrote: I guess, but even with Br's good burst resistance, its still easy to KO. Ive though of the Br ban before, but the argument that hasbro doesn't have the ability to compete in opposite spin anymore always makes me  think it would be a negative change. Think of it this way: without Br, hasbro players can't win opposite spin, can't compete with stamina without getting bursted and really can't do anything to TT beys like hS, aH, and rP. Considering turbo is bad, hasbro doesn't have the weight to compete. Hasbro already can't really compete with attack beys, without Br defence isn't as viable because of the lack of LAD and burst resistance, now, if Br gets banned, hasbro won't have stamina or equalizing either. And if Br is such a problem, what about Xt+? I'm not able to burst or KO aH or hS on Xt+, so if hasbro's Br is such a problem that it gets considered a ban, shouldn't we look at Xt+ the same way? If you want to ban Hasbro Br, fine, but you would also have to ban TT Br, Xt+, and hS because it would make hasbro still viable in opposite spin, and you'd need to ban aH and maybe rP because that would make hasbro, and even some TT beys more viable in right spin. Also, its not Br making B3, F3, and SrS3 unburstable, they already are pretty much. And if you still think you need to ban hasbro Br, than you may need to think it over a bit more because removing hasbro's one ticket to viablitity, would make the meta less balanced, since hasbro beys aren't good, hasbro players like myself wouldn't have a chance, therefore, the meta would become TT centralized. And just to end, for hasbro players, Br is mostly about opposite spin and not burst resistance, if you remove Br, hasbro players won't have a chance against the many strong TT beys out there. Also, hS can pretty much beat anything left spin from hasbro keep in mind. Thanks for your time, have a good day.
Xt+ is very easy to Ko...and its not as tight as Et.
(Jan. 02, 2019  6:49 AM)Infinite.Zero Wrote:
(Jan. 01, 2019  10:41 PM)bladekid Wrote: I guess, but even with Br's good burst resistance, its still easy to KO. Ive though of the Br ban before, but the argument that hasbro doesn't have the ability to compete in opposite spin anymore always makes me  think it would be a negative change. Think of it this way: without Br, hasbro players can't win opposite spin, can't compete with stamina without getting bursted and really can't do anything to TT beys like hS, aH, and rP. Considering turbo is bad, hasbro doesn't have the weight to compete. Hasbro already can't really compete with attack beys, without Br defence isn't as viable because of the lack of LAD and burst resistance, now, if Br gets banned, hasbro won't have stamina or equalizing either. And if Br is such a problem, what about Xt+? I'm not able to burst or KO aH or hS on Xt+, so if hasbro's Br is such a problem that it gets considered a ban, shouldn't we look at Xt+ the same way? If you want to ban Hasbro Br, fine, but you would also have to ban TT Br, Xt+, and hS because it would make hasbro still viable in opposite spin, and you'd need to ban aH and maybe rP because that would make hasbro, and even some TT beys more viable in right spin. Also, its not Br making B3, F3, and SrS3 unburstable, they already are pretty much. And if you still think you need to ban hasbro Br, than you may need to think it over a bit more because removing hasbro's one ticket to viablitity, would make the meta less balanced, since hasbro beys aren't good, hasbro players like myself wouldn't have a chance, therefore, the meta would become TT centralized. And just to end, for hasbro players, Br is mostly about opposite spin and not burst resistance, if you remove Br, hasbro players won't have a chance against the many strong TT beys out there. Also, hS can pretty much beat anything left spin from hasbro keep in mind. Thanks for your time, have a good day.
Xt+ is very easy to Ko...and its not as tight as Et.

I dont know of a single hasbro bey that can KO aH on Xt+. Maybe the new R4 can but still. The only thing that I know can KO and maybe burst hS on Xt+ is L3 on either X, Jl-S, and maybe Hn-s. As I will argue, its not really about defence with Xt+, its about LAD, so it doesn't matter as much. Sure that hasbro Br is harder to burst and has the best LAD, but thats just the thing, since it has the best LAD, removing it from play would put hasbro players at an even bigger disadvantage.
(Jan. 02, 2019  4:41 AM)mleunc Wrote: I don't buy into any bans in general.  By banning any "op" parts all you do is make the next level "op" parts the best.  If you look at winning combos the overwhelming majority are the same combos that spread through the meta.  So whether you ban parts or not it's still going to be a consistent set of winning combos.  Just let the "op" parts be "op", it will make it easier and more fun for the average blader to have success and enjoy tournaments.

there is a difference between “op”, a subjective opinion, and “obviously broken”, which is a verifiable fact.  TT bearing is the benchmark for how hasbro bearing should behave.  hasbro bearing is a pretty large departure from TT's design, considering burst resistance.

i hate bans, but after seeing Kei's test results, hasbro bearing looks more obviously broken than simply op.

(Jan. 02, 2019  12:43 PM)bladekid Wrote: removing it from play would put hasbro players at an even bigger disadvantage.

then the hasbro player could simply buy TT.

being a hasbro player is not a disease or genetic condition; if you don’t like the hasbro lineup, buy TT.

 we should not allow hasbro's poor and lazy design to impact our game.
(Jan. 02, 2019  2:02 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote:
(Jan. 02, 2019  4:41 AM)mleunc Wrote: I don't buy into any bans in general.  By banning any "op" parts all you do is make the next level "op" parts the best.  If you look at winning combos the overwhelming majority are the same combos that spread through the meta.  So whether you ban parts or not it's still going to be a consistent set of winning combos.  Just let the "op" parts be "op", it will make it easier and more fun for the average blader to have success and enjoy tournaments.

there is a difference between “op”, a subjective opinion, and “obviously broken”, which is a verifiable fact.  TT bearing is the benchmark for how hasbro bearing should behave.  hasbro bearing is a pretty large departure from TT's design, considering burst resistance.

i hate bans, but after seeing Kei's test results, hasbro bearing looks more obviously broken than simply op.

(Jan. 02, 2019  12:43 PM)bladekid Wrote: removing it from play would put hasbro players at an even bigger disadvantage.

then the hasbro player could simply buy TT.

being a hasbro player is not a disease or genetic condition; if you don’t like the hasbro lineup, buy TT.

 we should not allow hasbro's poor and lazy design to impact our game.

Saying just buy TT is not a solution. Ya see, I dont really have the means to buy TT beys and I dont really want to pay a lot for them at tournaments. Also, I've been using hasbro since the beginning, its too late for me to just switch to TT now unless I want to re buy a bunch of beys. Sure its broken, but its one of the few things that hasbro has in it favor and without it, it would be much harder. In the end, its really not about burst resistance, its more about LAD. If you take away the piece with the best LAD, it severely disadvantages hasbro players.
Here is my take on this. I don't think hasbro's Br should be banned. Turbo doesn't have metal so it puts turbo at a disadvantage against Super Z. Hasbro's Br balances the meta a little more. Sorry If this has already been said, But at the moment I just don't see a reason to ban it.
How about a Limited Burst Format!
(Jan. 02, 2019  2:02 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote:
(Jan. 02, 2019  4:41 AM)mleunc Wrote: I don't buy into any bans in general.  By banning any "op" parts all you do is make the next level "op" parts the best.  If you look at winning combos the overwhelming majority are the same combos that spread through the meta.  So whether you ban parts or not it's still going to be a consistent set of winning combos.  Just let the "op" parts be "op", it will make it easier and more fun for the average blader to have success and enjoy tournaments.

there is a difference between “op”, a subjective opinion, and “obviously broken”, which is a verifiable fact.  TT bearing is the benchmark for how hasbro bearing should behave.  hasbro bearing is a pretty large departure from TT's design, considering burst resistance.

i hate bans, but after seeing Kei's test results, hasbro bearing looks more obviously broken than simply op.

(Jan. 02, 2019  12:43 PM)bladekid Wrote: removing it from play would put hasbro players at an even bigger disadvantage.

then the hasbro player could simply buy TT.

being a hasbro player is not a disease or genetic condition; if you don’t like the hasbro lineup, buy TT.

 we should not allow hasbro's poor and lazy design to impact our game.

You’re right, being a Hasbro Blader isn’t a disease or genetic condition. It’s a product of circumstance. TT beys are very expensive for anybody that isn’t in Japan, and a majority of them are hard to access. Hasbro’s Bearing is the best that anybody can get if they don’t want to blow a ton of money on a hobby. Also, TT is not a benchmark for Hasbro. They would be, if it weren’t for the Turbo beys. The Turbo beys are a huge departure from the Cho-Z beyblades, and now a layer from Turbo can barely stand up to a Cho-Z bey. Hasbro’s Bearing, coupled with strong and heavy parts, can allow a Turbo bey to actually engage in a battle against a TT Cho-Z Bey. Hasbro’s Bearing is one of a Hasbro Bladers only chances of victory against a TT Blader, and yet people like you want to make the Hasbro bladers lose by a lot, for no reason other than the fact that one Hasbro part is stronger than a TT.
(Jan. 02, 2019  9:27 PM)Dt20000 Wrote:
(Jan. 02, 2019  2:02 PM)RedPanda2 Wrote: there is a difference between “op”, a subjective opinion, and “obviously broken”, which is a verifiable fact.  TT bearing is the benchmark for how hasbro bearing should behave.  hasbro bearing is a pretty large departure from TT's design, considering burst resistance.

i hate bans, but after seeing Kei's test results, hasbro bearing looks more obviously broken than simply op.


then the hasbro player could simply buy TT.

being a hasbro player is not a disease or genetic condition; if you don’t like the hasbro lineup, buy TT.

 we should not allow hasbro's poor and lazy design to impact our game.

You’re right, being a Hasbro Blader isn’t a disease or genetic condition. It’s a product of circumstance. TT beys are very expensive for anybody that isn’t in Japan, and a majority of them are hard to access. Hasbro’s Bearing is the best that anybody can get if they don’t want to blow a ton of money on a hobby. Also, TT is not a benchmark for Hasbro. They would be, if it weren’t for the Turbo beys. The Turbo beys are a huge departure from the Cho-Z beyblades, and now a layer from Turbo can barely stand up to a Cho-Z bey. Hasbro’s Bearing, coupled with strong and heavy parts, can allow a Turbo bey to actually engage in a battle against a TT Cho-Z Bey. Hasbro’s Bearing is one of a Hasbro Bladers only chances of victory against a TT Blader, and yet people like you want to make the Hasbro bladers lose by a lot, for no reason other than the fact that one Hasbro part is stronger than a TT.

Well said. I agree.
(Jan. 02, 2019  9:27 PM)Dt20000 Wrote: You’re right, being a Hasbro Blader isn’t a disease or genetic condition. It’s a product of circumstance. TT beys are very expensive for anybody that isn’t in Japan, and a majority of them are hard to access. Hasbro’s Bearing is the best that anybody can get if they don’t want to blow a ton of money on a hobby. Also, TT is not a benchmark for Hasbro. They would be, if it weren’t for the Turbo beys. The Turbo beys are a huge departure from the Cho-Z beyblades, and now a layer from Turbo can barely stand up to a Cho-Z bey. Hasbro’s Bearing, coupled with strong and heavy parts, can allow a Turbo bey to actually engage in a battle against a TT Cho-Z Bey. Hasbro’s Bearing is one of a Hasbro Bladers only chances of victory against a TT Blader, and yet people like you want to make the Hasbro bladers lose by a lot, for no reason other than the fact that one Hasbro part is stronger than a TT.

I'd like to direct you to this from my previous post:

(Jan. 02, 2019  12:14 AM)Kei Wrote: The unfortunate reality is that when making decisions for what's best in our regular Burst Format, what must take precedence is ensuring it is balanced objectively. If we factor in the idea that Hasbro players might not be able to compete as well with a certain part banned, then we are allowing the game to become ruled by something which has no relevance to the actual gameplay balance from an objective perspective. This situation is comparable to what we went through with Garuda G3; banning that impacted Hasbro players negatively, but it made the Burst Format itself better.

Hasbro players have Hasbro Burst Format available too for them to play each other on a level playing field, which is another reason why I don't think their ability to compete should be mentioned in this discussion.

Wanting to ban Hasbro Bearing doesn't mean we "want to make the Hasbro bladers lose by a lot, for no reason other than the fact that one Hasbro part is stronger than a TT". The reason some people want it banned is because it is a broken part objectively speaking. That cannot be argued; Beyblade simply cannot fairly include a part which has the best LAD and the best burst resistance in the game on a conceptual level. Some performance variance is to be expected when comparing the two brands, but that doesn't mean we should allow something which is obviously broken to remain in the game. That goes beyond a mere slight performance variance.

I understand why players who primarily buy Hasbro parts would feel threatened by this, but this has nothing to do with any feelings towards such players. Instead, it has everything to do with wanting the game to be balanced on a conceptual level where parts availability is not a factor. If Hasbro players are affected negatively by a potential ban of Bearing, then that's Hasbro's fault for producing it so carelessly without thinking about the gameplay implications. And in order to help alleviate this, at least we do have Hasbro Burst Format as I mentioned previously; everyone is free to use it so they have an environment to compete on a more even playing field.

If we allow the fact that some players can't afford TT (or any particular part which is hard to obtain, regardless of the brand) to influence our decisions, what value does WBO Organized Play have? What value does it have if we allow inherently broken parts to exist? What value do the rankings then have? Not much competitively speaking, by my estimation. That's why we always carefully consider things like this to ensure the part(s) in question are not damaging to the balance of the game. And that's whether the part is produced by TAKARA-TOMY or by Hasbro; there is no prejudice against one side or the other as we have clearly shown over the years.
(Jan. 02, 2019  10:11 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Jan. 02, 2019  9:27 PM)Dt20000 Wrote: You’re right, being a Hasbro Blader isn’t a disease or genetic condition. It’s a product of circumstance. TT beys are very expensive for anybody that isn’t in Japan, and a majority of them are hard to access. Hasbro’s Bearing is the best that anybody can get if they don’t want to blow a ton of money on a hobby. Also, TT is not a benchmark for Hasbro. They would be, if it weren’t for the Turbo beys. The Turbo beys are a huge departure from the Cho-Z beyblades, and now a layer from Turbo can barely stand up to a Cho-Z bey. Hasbro’s Bearing, coupled with strong and heavy parts, can allow a Turbo bey to actually engage in a battle against a TT Cho-Z Bey. Hasbro’s Bearing is one of a Hasbro Bladers only chances of victory against a TT Blader, and yet people like you want to make the Hasbro bladers lose by a lot, for no reason other than the fact that one Hasbro part is stronger than a TT.

I'd like to direct you to this from my previous post:

(Jan. 02, 2019  12:14 AM)Kei Wrote: The unfortunate reality is that when making decisions for what's best in our regular Burst Format, what must take precedence is ensuring it is balanced objectively. If we factor in the idea that Hasbro players might not be able to compete as well with a certain part banned, then we are allowing the game to become ruled by something which has no relevance to the actual gameplay balance from an objective perspective. This situation is comparable to what we went through with Garuda G3; banning that impacted Hasbro players negatively, but it made the Burst Format itself better.

Hasbro players have Hasbro Burst Format available too for them to play each other on a level playing field, which is another reason why I don't think their ability to compete should be mentioned in this discussion.

Wanting to ban Hasbro Bearing doesn't mean we "want to make the Hasbro bladers lose by a lot, for no reason other than the fact that one Hasbro part is stronger than a TT". The reason some people want it banned is because it is a broken part objectively speaking. That cannot be argued; Beyblade simply cannot fairly include a part which has the best LAD and the best burst resistance in the game on a conceptual level. Some performance variance is to be expected when comparing the two brands, but that doesn't mean we should allow something which is obviously broken to remain in the game. That goes beyond a mere slight performance variance.

I understand why players who primarily buy Hasbro parts would feel threatened by this, but this has nothing to do with any feelings towards such players. Instead, it has everything to do with wanting the game to be balanced on a conceptual level where parts availability is not a factor. If Hasbro players are affected negatively by a potential ban of Bearing, then that's Hasbro's fault for producing it so carelessly without thinking about the gameplay implications. And in order to help alleviate this, at least we do have Hasbro Burst Format as I mentioned previously; everyone is free to use it so they have an environment to compete on a more even playing field.

If we allow the fact that some players can't afford TT (or any particular part which is hard to obtain, regardless of the brand) to influence our decisions, what value does WBO Organized Play have? What value does it have if we allow inherently broken parts to exist? What value do the rankings then have? Not much competitively speaking, by my estimation. That's why we always carefully consider things like this to ensure the part(s) in question are not damaging to the balance of the game. And that's whether the part is produced by TAKARA-TOMY or by Hasbro; there is no prejudice against one side or the other as we have clearly shown over the years.

I'm not saying its not broken, but banning it is simply unfair. It also isn't about burst resistance, its about LAD, there is less chance its going to get bursted just because its an opposite spin battle. If you are going to ban it, fine, just make it equal to hasbro players and ban TT br and Xt+. As Ive said, you can't replace Br in a deck with something like Ds, its just not good enough. Also, if it's all about balancing the meta, what about aH, hS, and rP? To my knowledge, a lot of people have been wanting them banned for a while, and they are actually dominating tournaments unlike B3 on Br which has endless weaknesses. Without those 3 beys, the meta would improve a lot. In the Uk (I think) there was a tournament where they banned aH, rP and hS ad there was a lot more variety with both TT and hasbro combo. The reason why us hasbro players even need to use things like B3 Br is because we can't win same spin because of those 3 layers. And you can't even use Br recklessly either, I tried that and I lost hard at the beytuber brawl. You can't even use B3 Br recklessly, considering my entire deck, with my best equilizer, B3 on Br, my best equilzer counter J3 on Gr, and my best left spin attack type, L3 on X were all beaten by hS on At, showing its pure dominance in the meta.
Here are some tests
5 rounds each
(Left spin) Spryzen Requiem 7 Br VS Bloody Longinus 0B Hn’
Bloody Longinus wins 10-0 (5 Bursts)

(Right spin) Spryzen Requiem 7 Br VS Bloody Longinus 0B Hn’
Spryzen Requiem wins 5-0 (5 Survivors)

I think it matters what spin you are in because when Spryzen was in left spin it lost but in right spin it won so I think that it only matters about spin direction so Bearing should not be banned
(Jan. 02, 2019  11:23 PM)bladekid Wrote: I'm not saying its not broken, but banning it is simply unfair.

If it's broken–which you agree with–then it should be banned, no?

(Jan. 02, 2019  11:23 PM)bladekid Wrote: It also isn't about burst resistance, its about LAD, there is less chance its going to get bursted just because its an opposite spin battle.

My tests and Wombat's tests indicate that it is extremely difficult–if not, virtually impossible in the case of B3–to burst top tier Hasbro Br combos even with same spin attack types. So yes, there is a big component of this discussion that is related directly to the burst resistance. In fact, the entire discussion is predicated on that, really. The LAD is fine, but the problem is how much more burst resistant it is in combination with that attribute.

(Jan. 02, 2019  11:23 PM)bladekid Wrote: If you are going to ban it, fine, just make it equal to hasbro players and ban TT br and Xt+. As Ive said, you can't replace Br in a deck with something like Ds, its just not good enough. Also, if it's all about balancing the meta, what about aH, hS, and rP? To my knowledge, a lot of people have been wanting them banned for a while, and they are actually dominating tournaments unlike B3 on Br which has endless weaknesses. Without those 3 beys, the meta would improve a lot.

aH, hS, and rP were certainly concerning (to varying degrees) early on this summer, but the release of Xtreme' in particular helped to solve that situation, thankfully. They're no longer nearly as safe as they were before. Additionally, as has been mentioned, the situation with those three and Hasbro Br isn't really comparable. As The Supreme One said:

The Supreme One Wrote:Re Shindog: I was against banning Archer Hercules because it sets off a chain reaction in which we also have to ban Hell Salamander and Revive Phoenix (maybe even Cho-Z Spriggan) to maintain a balanced meta. The benefit to banning just the driver is that there won't be this sort of chain-reaction banning because it affects all layers.

While aH, hS, and rP (as well as TT Br and Xt+) will continue to be used, there is a distinct difference in their use now versus earlier this year. There is a lot more risk associated with them now and they don't possess simultaneously the best LAD and burst resistance in the game like B3 on Br does. Remember that a part dominating tournaments doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be banned; it's not quite that simple. No matter what we do, the 'best' parts will always be used because that's what's required to win. It's just a question of whether those parts are too safe, versatile, etc.

(Jan. 02, 2019  11:23 PM)bladekid Wrote: In the Uk (I think) there was a tournament where they banned aH, rP and hS ad there was a lot more variety with both TT and hasbro combo.

A lot of the variety on display in that tournament was because of the general chaos caused by a new meta that nobody knew anything about. The tournament also was created to try and make a point about how the metagame could be more diverse, so you have to be careful when evaluating truly how much more diverse the metagame would have been if that was made official. Maybe it would have been more diverse, but it's hard to say how much. At that particular point in time, messing with the game to that extent didn't feel right to me personally for our regular Burst Format. It felt more like a Limited Format at that point.

(Jan. 03, 2019  2:26 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote: Here are some tests
5 rounds each
(Left spin) Spryzen Requiem 7 Br VS Bloody Longinus 0B Hn’
Bloody Longinus wins 10-0 (5 Bursts)

(Right spin) Spryzen Requiem 7 Br VS Bloody Longinus 0B Hn’
Spryzen Requiem wins 5-0 (5 Survivors)

I think it matters what spin you are in because when Spryzen was in left spin it lost but in right spin it won so I think that it only matters about spin direction so Bearing should not be banned

Which Spryzen Requiem mold are you using? The original or the silver one from the Ultimate Tournament Collection? The UTC version is significantly easier to burst. Also, using no Frame makes it easier to destabilize, I find.

Also, how many KO/OS for bL in the results versus left spin Spryzen Requiem?

I just did a few rounds informally comparing both molds to be sure and the UTC mold was indeed much easier to burst. I was able to burst the regular Spryzen Requiem once or twice–which is consistent with Wombat's bL results from before–and it did have more recoil than B3, but it was still exceedingly hard to get it close to bursting.
(Jan. 03, 2019  4:03 AM)Kei Wrote: Which Spryzen Requiem mold are you using? The original or the silver one from the Ultimate Tournament Collection? The UTC version is significantly easier to burst. Also, using no Frame makes it easier to destabilize, I find.

Also, how many KO/OS for bL in the results versus left spin Spryzen Requiem?

I just did a few rounds informally comparing both molds to be sure and the UTC mold was indeed much easier to burst. I was able to burst the regular Spryzen Requiem once or twice–which is consistent with Wombat's bL results from before–and it did have more recoil than B3, but it was still exceedingly hard to get it close to bursting.

1. UTC but mine is a good mold 
2. 0 against L spin Spryzen