World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Other Closed Threads

The Case For Banning F230 From Zero-G Tournament Play

Feb. 15, 2014  7:22 PM
 
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:20 PM)The Supreme One Wrote:
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:12 PM)Leone19 Wrote: The circle/rim on CF and GCF is really what keeps it going- I'm sure people could try GF, but it wouldn't really work the same way.
I figured as much. In that case, couldn't there simply be a rule change in which the whole beyblade must remain spinning for it to still be "in?"

Then there would be no point in using F230 anyways, the main gimmick is to keep it spinning after it's initially stopped- similar counter argument to my idea of banning it on CF/GCF.
Feb. 15, 2014  7:25 PM
 
But if that gets rid of the main issue, then people can technically still use a part they spent a lot of money on and it's less complicated than trying to discern whether a player is using a specific performance tip.
Feb. 15, 2014  7:27 PM
 
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:25 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: But if that gets rid of the main issue, then people can technically still use a part they spent a lot of money on and it's less complicated than trying to discern whether a player is using a specific performance tip.

That's very true, but it just seems a bit complicated. I mean, the point of the combination was to have incredible LAD, so if anything, that ruling would just discourage use.
Feb. 15, 2014  7:34 PM
 
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:27 PM)Leone19 Wrote: That's very true, but it just seems a bit complicated. I mean, the point of the combination was to have incredible LAD, so if anything, that ruling would just discourage use.
IIRC, the one time I used F230 CF was at the last tournament I hosted. The fact that the beyblade was still spinning seemed so unfair to me that I actually called my own match as a loss because I couldn't believe that such a thing would be legal. Of course I looked it up after the match and realized that I'd been incorrect in judging, but that was when I began to have my concerns. They're spinning tops. If half of the top isn't spinning, how is that fair? In my opinion, the problem is really in the rules. If future free-spinning parts are created, changing the rules would get rid of any problem before they could arise without banning every individual part.
Feb. 15, 2014  7:39 PM
 
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:34 PM)The Supreme One Wrote:
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:27 PM)Leone19 Wrote: That's very true, but it just seems a bit complicated. I mean, the point of the combination was to have incredible LAD, so if anything, that ruling would just discourage use.
IIRC, the one time I used F230 CF was at the last tournament I hosted. The fact that the beyblade was still spinning seemed so unfair to me that I actually called my own match as a loss because I couldn't believe that such a thing would be legal. Of course I looked it up after the match and realized that I'd been incorrect in judging, but that was when I began to have my concerns. They're spinning tops. If half of the top isn't spinning, how is that fair? In my opinion, the problem is really in the rules. If future free-spinning parts are created, changing the rules would get rid of any problem before they could arise.

Yeah, I believe that was Before the Big Bang, we hosted.

Technically they're spinning tops and part of the top is spinning... Tongue_out

But, I do understand and accept your point.

Either way- it's all up to the committee/advanced members to see what's going to happen.

A public vote, would be interesting, though. But it could become corrupt so easily- with people PM'ing what to vote for, etc.
Feb. 15, 2014  7:39 PM
 
Aquamarine, this is a serious thread for serious players. Not a chat room.

VA kinda skipped all of the phases after (no offense) seeing Dark abuse the hell out of it. We agree not to use it, and if someone does, they are SEVERELY frowned upon (as someone on page one kinda said).

I started playing competitively just around the time when Basalt became insignificant, but I knew well of its presence and what it did. th!nk brought up strawman, many of the people who want F230 to stay have terrible, terrible points.

I may be able to do a video if Kaboom!!! comes over today.
Feb. 15, 2014  7:44 PM
 
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:39 PM)DrPepsidew Wrote: Aquamarine, this is a serious thread for serious players. Not a chat room.

VA kinda skipped all of the phases after (no offense) seeing Dark abuse the hell out of it. We agree not to use it, and if someone does, they are SEVERELY frowned upon (as someone on page one kinda said).

I started playing competitively just around the time when Basalt became insignificant, but I knew well of its presence and what it did. th!nk brought up strawman, many of the people who want F230 to stay have terrible, terrible points.

I may be able to do a video if Kaboom!!! comes over today.

Yeah, the idea that a few posted about regions just agreeing not to use it, have that negative effect- anyone who wants to use it, is incredibly frowned upon and may even feel uncomfortable at the event- something the WBO wouldn't want, at all.

I don't know if that referred to me, but I don't consider my points to be that terrible. Tongue_out
Feb. 15, 2014  7:44 PM
 
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:20 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: I figured as much. In that case, couldn't there simply be a rule change in which the whole beyblade must remain spinning for it to still be "in?"

That's not a bad idea, but that could make judging matches somewhat more difficult in larger tournament scenes. The argument could then come up, what counts as still spinning. I know from experience judging just spin stealing battles can be annoying. In theory the rule change isn't a bad idea. It would just have to be worded very properly.

But i still believe banning it from the Zero G Format would be much easier.
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:44 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Yeah, the idea that a few posted about regions just agreeing not to use it, have that negative effect- anyone who wants to use it, is incredibly frowned upon and may even feel uncomfortable at the event- something the WBO wouldn't want, at all.

People can agree not to use something, but if someone just pops up and uses it the judge can't enforce anything. I actually saw something like this happen at Anime North 2012 I think it was. And its happened quite a bit in NC in the past.
Feb. 15, 2014  7:55 PM
 
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:44 PM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: That's not a bad idea, but that could make judging matches somewhat more difficult in larger tournament scenes. The argument could then come up, what counts as still spinning. I know from experience judging just spin stealing battles can be annoying. In theory the rule change isn't a bad idea. It would just have to be worded very properly.

But i still believe banning it from the Zero G Format would be much easier.
I think you'd just have to watch the performance tip. When one part of the beyblade, either tip or wheel, stops moving, it should be out of play.
F230 many not be as good in standard as it is in Zero G, but it still does pretty well from what I've seen. Wouldn't banning it in Zero G lead to less tournaments in that format?
Feb. 15, 2014  8:03 PM
 
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:55 PM)The Supreme One Wrote: I think you'd just have to watch the performance tip. When one part of the beyblade, either tip or wheel, stops moving, it should be out of play.
F230 many not be as good in standard as it is in Zero G, but it still does pretty well from what I've seen. Wouldn't banning it in Zero G lead to less tournaments in that format?

Personally i think it would have the opposite affect. It would give the younger kids a chance to use more parts then just F230. It would cause a wider range of parts to be used.

Personally when i go to a tournament i have most of my combos pre made. 2 of them being F230 CF combos. If you look at my tournament record you will see F230 in every single event Ive played or topped in since Beyblade Revolution. Banning of F230 would indeed cause myself and other players to expand our repertoire of customs.

I use F230 CF because I know others have it at these events. Everyone expects me to use F230 CF so therefore they may use F230 CF. The moment I change is the moment they use F230 CF and I lose a match. It always happens to me. So therefore I must keep an F230 CF combo with me at all times.

Personally if F230 was banned Id be going straight Left spin sway. But its simply to risky right now with F230 in the meta.
Feb. 15, 2014  8:06 PM
 
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:55 PM)The Supreme One Wrote:
(Feb. 15, 2014  7:44 PM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: That's not a bad idea, but that could make judging matches somewhat more difficult in larger tournament scenes. The argument could then come up, what counts as still spinning. I know from experience judging just spin stealing battles can be annoying. In theory the rule change isn't a bad idea. It would just have to be worded very properly.

But i still believe banning it from the Zero G Format would be much easier.
I think you'd just have to watch the performance tip. When one part of the beyblade, either tip or wheel, stops moving, it should be out of play.
F230 many not be as good in standard as it is in Zero G, but it still does pretty well from what I've seen. Wouldn't banning it in Zero G lead to less tournaments in that format?

I know this topic is strictly about it in Zero-G, so I assume you mean this rule would only stand in Zero-G or in any format?

It may be confusing to people if it can keep spinning in Standard, but that would be considered a loss in Zero-G.

I kinda have to agree with Dark- only to the fact that it would make judging a bit harder.
Feb. 15, 2014  8:43 PM
 
Guys, the rule about outspinning applies to Engine Gear Beyblades as well. That is just how Beyblades with independently-spinning parts get ruled. In other words, there is a reason that rule exists.
Feb. 15, 2014  11:20 PM
 
Exactly.

Another example, besides Plastics SGs, would be bearing Drive. You'd basically lose as soon as you launched, haha.

It's a good idea, but it's just not practical.
Feb. 16, 2014  2:51 AM
 
Back when libra was a thing didn't I get banned with a metal face. wouldn't that be a complicated ban just like banning f230 on cf/gcf
Feb. 16, 2014  3:04 AM
 
(Feb. 16, 2014  2:51 AM)geetster99 Wrote: Back when libra was a thing didn't I get banned with a metal face. wouldn't that be a complicated ban just like banning f230 on cf/gcf

We never did that. That is what TAKARA-TOMY did for some of their tournaments.
Feb. 16, 2014  3:11 AM
 
F230 washed after every 10 battles.
Girago Dragooon 100RF vs. Genbull Dragooon F230 (Brown) GCF
Girago Dragooon 100RF: 16 wins, 14 OS, 2 KO
Genbull Dragooon F230: 4 wins, all OS
Girago Dragooon 100RF Win Rate: 80%
There's a little something called destabilization which works well against F230.

Girago Dragooon 100RF vs. Duo Gasher F230 (brown) GCF
Girago Dragooon 100RF: 14 wins, 13 KO, 1 OS
Duo F230: 6 wins, all OS
Girago Dragooon 100RF Win Rate: 70%!!!!!
Totally unexplainable.
Feb. 16, 2014  3:12 AM
 
(Feb. 16, 2014  3:11 AM)Aquamarine Wrote: F230 washed after every 10 battles.
Girago Dragooon 100RF vs. Genbull Dragooon F230 (Brown) GCF
Girago Dragooon 100RF: 16 wins, 14 OS, 2 KO
Genbull Dragooon F230: 4 wins, all OS
Girago Dragooon 100RF Win Rate: 80%
There's a little something called destabilization which works well against F230.

Girago Dragooon 100RF vs. Duo Gasher F230 (brown) GCF
Girago Dragooon 100RF: 14 wins, 13 KO, 1 OS
Duo F230: 6 wins, all OS
Girago Dragooon 100RF Win Rate: 70%!!!!!
Totally unexplainable.

I can easily explain it. Its a brown F230. Its been proven time and again that Orange Takara Tomy F230 are far superior to the other molds. SO really your tests don't support this thread. And i don't see this as being possible if done in a Zero G stadium.
Feb. 16, 2014  3:18 AM
 
Nah, it's BB-10. My F230 works better than most browns.
Feb. 16, 2014  3:19 AM
 
(Feb. 16, 2014  3:18 AM)Aquamarine Wrote: Nah, it's BB-10. My F230 works better than most browns.

This is for zero g only. Also, this thread isn't for counters. Use the other thread for that.
Feb. 16, 2014  3:28 AM
 
Sorry, got mixed up XD
Feb. 16, 2014  4:01 AM
 
(Feb. 16, 2014  3:04 AM)Kai-V Wrote:
(Feb. 16, 2014  2:51 AM)geetster99 Wrote: Back when libra was a thing didn't I get banned with a metal face. wouldn't that be a complicated ban just like banning f230 on cf/gcf

We never did that. That is what TAKARA-TOMY did for some of their tournaments.

oh I thought we applied that ban too I guess I miss read the wiki article
Feb. 16, 2014  5:15 AM
 
(Feb. 15, 2014  1:32 PM)Leone19 Wrote: I feel that way towards F230 CF/GCF as a Sway Attacker (if launched right, like F230 must be launched right...) can take it down with ease. I know in Year of the Bey, Naijalak nearly won, as I was outswayed twice, I believe.

While I do not own an F230 of any kind, I've fought it three times in Zero-G, and won twice 3-2 with a Right Spin Sway Attacker. However,

(Feb. 15, 2014  3:21 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Naijalak almost won, but he didn't. Same-spin Sway Attack is one of (and in my opinion, the) best counters for it. However,you still won, which is a serious problem. That means the counter isn't consistent.

The two times I won were basically ^that, but the inconsistencies were on my side and I won through pure luck. And, keep in mind this was before TBD discovered that you could Sliding Shoot F230GCF and completely violate everything, so there's no way I could pull off those wins now.

(Feb. 15, 2014  1:32 PM)Leone19 Wrote: From experience, it's not unbeatable, as several pointed out. I mean, as much as people compare this to Basalt and Libra, it could also be connected to a Dragoon Spin Stealer. It seemed very powerful and could defeat nearly anything, but a specific counter could take it down. Not to mention, once it was discovered, everyone used it constantly. It was the same with BGrin in CT. Ever since it's use in Zero-G Gorge, it was constantly used and a BGrin combination placed in all 3 categories. Even though BGrin can be defeated, it can be connected to how F230 swept events in NC and Maryland. BGrin dominated CT.

Another part of the difference, other than what TBD pointed out that BGrin and Dragooon are easily countered, is that they were both new at the time and people hadn't found ways to stop them yet. They dominated for a few weeks until someone found a combo that would stop them cold in their Tracks. Another factor is that both after Libra and Basalt came out new parts that evened out the playing field, like Lightning L-Drago (which could beat Libra AFAIK, just people's lack of confidence/skill with Attack made it not used very often) or the 4D weight creep. Nothing new has really been created since BBG-023, and people have had over a year to develop a counter. It hasn't been done, and TT hasn't made anything new that stops F230GCF, so we should ban it for the time being.

(Feb. 15, 2014  7:13 PM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: CF/GCF has the disk around it that allows for additional LAD.

I personally like Leone19's idea, because it will give people time to expect a ban.

I personally disagree, as we want to be rid of F230 ASAP, and since it's so controversial most people (like myself) have seen this ban coming for a while now.

(Feb. 15, 2014  7:39 PM)DrPepsidew Wrote: Aquamarine, this is a serious thread for serious players. Not a chat room.

VA kinda skipped all of the phases after (no offense) seeing Dark abuse the hell out of it. We agree not to use it, and if someone does, they are SEVERELY frowned upon (as someone on page one kinda said).

I'm not sure if I would be considered a serious player, but this is basically what I contributed to getting Gravity banned in Limited (how people would be frowned upon for using it). If people feel worse about that for F230, then it needs to be banned.

(Feb. 15, 2014  5:11 PM)Snoop Dog MS Wrote: Yeah, it's not really that OP in Michigan or Chicago. I agree about banning it in certain regions.

No offense, but I think that's a bad idea. If it's banned from certain regions it will still dominate elsewhere. While metas for different areas may differ slightly, there are pretty much global constants. Like people in the USA will use the same combo as people in Italy or the Philippines because it's just a good combo. F230 is like an invasive species, once it gets introduced into the meta people will try to stop it until they fail and start using it themselves. We should just ban it outright.


So yeah, I'm in favor of an F230 ban. Nothing now can beat it consistently, but it may be reintroduced later if TT makes something that can stop it.

Disclaimer: I don't mean any offense to anyone I quoted or mentioned in the post, so I apologize if any of this offended you. (Especially Leone19 as I just noticed I disagreed with you the most, sorry.)

Spoiler (Click to View)
Feb. 16, 2014  5:28 AM
 
Hahaha! Invasive species... that was just perfect.

But yah, I pretty much agree with everything you said.

However, sliding it forward towards the edge of the stadium is only used to beat same-spin Stamina (it's not a sliding shoot actually; just a standard Zero-G Attack launch). Against Attack, you weak launch. Wink
Feb. 16, 2014  1:20 PM
 
(Feb. 16, 2014  5:15 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Feb. 15, 2014  1:32 PM)Leone19 Wrote: I feel that way towards F230 CF/GCF as a Sway Attacker (if launched right, like F230 must be launched right...) can take it down with ease. I know in Year of the Bey, Naijalak nearly won, as I was outswayed twice, I believe.

While I do not own an F230 of any kind, I've fought it three times in Zero-G, and won twice 3-2 with a Right Spin Sway Attacker. However,

(Feb. 15, 2014  3:21 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Naijalak almost won, but he didn't. Same-spin Sway Attack is one of (and in my opinion, the) best counters for it. However,you still won, which is a serious problem. That means the counter isn't consistent.

The two times I won were basically ^that, but the inconsistencies were on my side and I won through pure luck. And, keep in mind this was before TBD discovered that you could Sliding Shoot F230GCF and completely violate everything, so there's no way I could pull off those wins now.

(Feb. 15, 2014  1:32 PM)Leone19 Wrote: From experience, it's not unbeatable, as several pointed out. I mean, as much as people compare this to Basalt and Libra, it could also be connected to a Dragoon Spin Stealer. It seemed very powerful and could defeat nearly anything, but a specific counter could take it down. Not to mention, once it was discovered, everyone used it constantly. It was the same with BGrin in CT. Ever since it's use in Zero-G Gorge, it was constantly used and a BGrin combination placed in all 3 categories. Even though BGrin can be defeated, it can be connected to how F230 swept events in NC and Maryland. BGrin dominated CT.

Another part of the difference, other than what TBD pointed out that BGrin and Dragooon are easily countered, is that they were both new at the time and people hadn't found ways to stop them yet. They dominated for a few weeks until someone found a combo that would stop them cold in their Tracks. Another factor is that both after Libra and Basalt came out new parts that evened out the playing field, like Lightning L-Drago (which could beat Libra AFAIK, just people's lack of confidence/skill with Attack made it not used very often) or the 4D weight creep. Nothing new has really been created since BBG-023, and people have had over a year to develop a counter. It hasn't been done, and TT hasn't made anything new that stops F230GCF, so we should ban it for the time being.

(Feb. 15, 2014  7:13 PM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: CF/GCF has the disk around it that allows for additional LAD.

I personally like Leone19's idea, because it will give people time to expect a ban.

I personally disagree, as we want to be rid of F230 ASAP, and since it's so controversial most people (like myself) have seen this ban coming for a while now.

(Feb. 15, 2014  7:39 PM)DrPepsidew Wrote: Aquamarine, this is a serious thread for serious players. Not a chat room.

VA kinda skipped all of the phases after (no offense) seeing Dark abuse the hell out of it. We agree not to use it, and if someone does, they are SEVERELY frowned upon (as someone on page one kinda said).

I'm not sure if I would be considered a serious player, but this is basically what I contributed to getting Gravity banned in Limited (how people would be frowned upon for using it). If people feel worse about that for F230, then it needs to be banned.

(Feb. 15, 2014  5:11 PM)Snoop Dog MS Wrote: Yeah, it's not really that OP in Michigan or Chicago. I agree about banning it in certain regions.

No offense, but I think that's a bad idea. If it's banned from certain regions it will still dominate elsewhere. While metas for different areas may differ slightly, there are pretty much global constants. Like people in the USA will use the same combo as people in Italy or the Philippines because it's just a good combo. F230 is like an invasive species, once it gets introduced into the meta people will try to stop it until they fail and start using it themselves. We should just ban it outright.


So yeah, I'm in favor of an F230 ban. Nothing now can beat it consistently, but it may be reintroduced later if TT makes something that can stop it.

Disclaimer: I don't mean any offense to anyone I quoted or mentioned in the post, so I apologize if any of this offended you. (Especially Leone19 as I just noticed I disagreed with you the most, sorry.)

Spoiler (Click to View)

One thing that I had to correct to TBD, too-

My reference to BGrin was simply connecting that in CT, for a good time period, you needed BGrin if you wanted to place. It's similar to the F230 situation, in that case, really.

At the same time, not all regions have had that fair time period- CT just faced an F230, while like Snoop Dog previously stated, other regions haven't either.
Feb. 16, 2014  3:17 PM
 
The difference between a meta dominated by Bearing Drive and a meta dominated by F230, is that, in the Bearing Drive meta, consistent, competitive counters exist and are easy to find, so the problem will eventually fix itself. It's just that people haven't looked hard enough.

The only real way to fix a meta using F230, is when the players owning it agree to an event without it (or to ban it, which is definitely the preferable option).
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