[Takara Tomy]  Maximum Garuda Testing/Discussion

Hey guys, the trial ban for Maximum Garuda recently expired and we are working on making a decision for its future as soon as possible. We'd like to conduct some testing with newer parts soon to get a better gauge for where it might fit into the game if it were to be unbanned. My first impulse was to keep it banned, but I do think it has potential to help temper the power opposite spin Destroy holds right now. I also believe that Bearing-based combos will be one way to counter it, which would simultaneously make Attack even more viable, so there could potentially be a nice balance.

I haven't thought through everything which should be tested, but here's a few ideas to start:

- mG Orbit vs. Sr Destroy (L&R), dC Bearing, dF Bearing, dF Destroy, tN Revolve
- mG Atomic vs. Sr Destroy (L&R), dC Bearing, dF Bearing, dF Destroy, tN Revolve
- Some new benchmarks for mG vs tN, Sr, sX, maybe bK, etc Xtreme since it's been a while

If anyone has these parts and could post some test results here, it would be greatly appreciated! I'm going to try and post some of my own this weekend.
not a reliable source but i saw on yt stock dC lose a bunch of rounds against mg 7g o
I have yet to acquire sR(waiting in the mail), but I'll try out some combos with tN,sX,dC and dF later on
(Feb. 02, 2018  6:39 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote: not a reliable source but i saw on yt stock dC lose a bunch of rounds against mg 7g o

Well, it's a stock dC. Idk what you expected XD
(Feb. 02, 2018  9:15 AM)Kei Wrote: I haven't thought through everything which should be tested, but here's a few ideas to start:

- mG Orbit vs. Sr Destroy (L&R), dC Bearing, dF Bearing, dF Destroy, tN Revolve
- mG Atomic vs. Sr Destroy (L&R), dC Bearing, dF Bearing, dF Destroy, tN Revolve
- Some new benchmarks for mG vs tN, Sr, sX, maybe bK, etc Xtreme since it's been a while

If anyone has these parts and could post some test results here, it would be greatly appreciated! I'm going to try and post some of my own this weekend.

On top of these, I would also be interested in seeing:

- mG Orbit/Atomic vs. dC.7.R (if gK was able to OS mG on Revolve, and dC has more Stamina than gK, I'm interested to see who wins. If Orbit
is losing go up to Atomic. If dC starts losing put dC on Orbit as well)
- mG Orbit vs. nL Xtreme/Destroy/Variable (I want to say mG probably wins this one but it should still be tested anyways)
- mG Orbit vs tN (Upper Mode) Accel/Iron/Zephyr (Want to test vs a tN setup that is more likely to burst mG)
- mG Orbit vs sX Atomic/Orbit/Needle/Weight/Semi-mobile Driver of choice
- mG Destroy vs. dF Bearing (if mG goes up to Destroy, can it OS dF Bearing?)
- mG Orbit vs. aC Bearing (not sure if dC Bearing is burst-resistant enough, so maybe aC can get the job done?)
(Feb. 02, 2018  6:43 PM)Mage Wrote:
(Feb. 02, 2018  6:39 PM)Rebel Blader Wrote: not a reliable source but i saw on yt stock dC lose a bunch of rounds against mg 7g o

Well, it's a stock dC. Idk what you expected XD

Still its Chaos and Bearing. isn't its good already for pure OSing purpose?

But if that video is not made up then its interesting. I wonder if people using Atomic launches slower then Orbit because fear of self KOing and thats what makes mG lose most of time? And with Orbit maybe they are more confident it won't self KO. though for that you need a mint orbit cuz worn/dirty orbit will probably self KO at 100% speed.
(Feb. 03, 2018  10:34 AM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote:
(Feb. 02, 2018  6:43 PM)Mage Wrote: Well, it's a stock dC. Idk what you expected XD

Still its Chaos and Bearing. isn't its good already for pure OSing purpose?

But if that video is not made up then its interesting. I wonder if people using Atomic launches slower then Orbit because fear of self KOing and thats what makes mG lose most of time? And with Orbit maybe they are more confident it won't self KO. though for that you need a mint orbit cuz worn/dirty orbit will probably self KO at 100% speed.

From the vid it seems bearing is quite easy to destabilize. 
i can agree with that self ko thing but i don't think if someone is using mG then that person should be worried about self kos cuz its pretty wide and has the upper force sort of thing which slows its speed just an assumption i can be wrong about it tho
- BeyLauncher for both
- A Mold God Chip used for non-mG or non-MGC combos when possible

Test Results

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Orbit vs. Drain Fafnir 7 Glaive Destroy (NOTE: Worn mG, Weak Spring Orbit)
Maximum Garuda: 0 Wins
Drain Fafnir: 10 Wins (9 BF, 1 OS)
mG Win Percentage: 0%

You can pretty much ignore this result, but I wanted to include it because the cause of it was interesting: I realized pretty quickly that my old mG was probably done for after extensive use. I didn't realize that it would really wear down to this extent.

Upon further inspection, the yellow Orbit I was using also had a noticeably weaker spring than my blue and black ones ... very strange. Has anybody else noticed this kind of variance with Orbit Drivers?

Maximum Garuda 7 Glaive Orbit vs. Drain Fafnir 7 Glaive Destroy
Maximum Garuda: 10 Wins (10 OS)
Drain Fafnir: 0 Wins
mG Win Percentage: 100%

From this point forward, I used a brand new Maximum Garuda. The difference was night and day. This match-up went exactly as I expected. We need something to temper Destroy's power, and it seems like mG may indeed be the solution for that at least.

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Orbit vs. Drain Fafnir 7 Glaive Bearing
Maximum Garuda: 7 Wins (7 OS)
Drain Fafnir: 13 Wins (13 OS)
2 Draws
mG Win Percentage: 35%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

I was surprised that mG was able to get as many wins as it did, but dF was still overall better. One thing to note is that you do kind of have to launch dF moderately and not weakly in this match-up, or else you have a higher chance of losing it seems.

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Atomic vs. Drain Fafnir 7 Glaive Bearing
Maximum Garuda: 5 Wins (5 OS)
Drain Fafnir: 5 Wins (4 BF, 1 OS)
mG Win Percentage: 50%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

Disappointed Bearing couldn't pull through more consistently in this match-up, but given that even Orbit put up a fight, this wasn't surprising. However ... it might have been more due to dF than Bearing because:

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Atomic vs. Spriggan Requiem 0 Bump Bearing (Left Spin)
Maximum Garuda: 2 Wins (2 OS)
Spriggan Requiem: 8 Wins (4 BF, 4 OS)
mG Win Percentage: 20%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

Spriggan Requiem was much more consistent than dF, as you can see.

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Orbit vs. Spriggan Requiem 7 Bump Bearing (Right Spin)
Maximum Garuda: 9 Wins (9 OS)
Spriggan Requiem: 6 Wins (3 BF, 3 OS)
mG Win Percentage: 60%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Atomic vs. Twin Nemesis 7 Revolve
Maximum Garuda: 1 Win (1 OS)
Twin Nemesis: 4 Wins (4 BF)
mG Win Percentage: 20%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Orbit vs. Twin Nemesis 7 Revolve
Maximum Garuda: 5 Wins (5 OS)
Twin Nemesis: 0 Wins
mG Win Percentage: 100%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

This is a good example of Orbit's increased tightness with mG ... shuts down tN completely compared to the Atomic match-up.

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Orbit vs. Deep Chaos 7 Revolve
Maximum Garuda: 2 Wins (2 OS)
Deep Chaos: 8 Wins (7 OS, 1 BF)
mG Win Percentage: 20%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Atomic vs. Deep Chaos 7 Revolve
Maximum Garuda: 10 Wins (10 OS)
Deep Chaos: 15 Wins (3 BF, 12 OS)
1 Draw
mG Win Percentage: 40%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

Unlike the Orbit match-up above, this one depended a lot on who was launched first ... But dC had the slight edge, even being able to burst mG a few times.

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Atomic vs. Deep Chaos 7 Bearing
Maximum Garuda: 0 Wins
Deep Chaos: 10 Wins (10 OS)
mG Win Percentage: 0%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Orbit vs. MGC Sieg Xcalibur 0 Meteor Orbit
Maximum Garuda: 3 Wins (3 OS)
Sieg Xcalibur: 7 Wins (7 BF)
mG Win Percentage: 30%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

Really no contest in this match-up even with mG using the tighter Orbit.

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Destroy vs. Drain Fafnir 7 Bump Bearing
Maximum Garuda: 0 Wins
Drain Fafnir: 5 Wins (5 OS)
mG Win Percentage: 0%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

(Metal God Chip) Maximum Garuda 7 Star Orbit vs. Alter Chronos 7 Bump Bearing
Maximum Garuda:  4 Wins (4 OS)
Alter Chronos: 1 Win (1 BF)
mG Win Percentage: 80%

Round by Round Results (Click to View)

These last two are for you Wombat haha. Destroy just doesn't work on mG and aC just doesn't have enough stamina, unfortunately.



Summary

 - Maximum Garuda shuts down left-spin Destroy
 - Maximum Garuda loses to left-spin Bearing (more so Spriggan Requiem than dF)
 - Maximum Garuda loses to right-spin Bearing (particularly Deep Chaos)
 - Maximum Garuda Orbit loses to Deep Chaos Revolve, but mG Atomic performs significantly better in this match-up
 - Even with the increased tightness of Orbit, Sieg Xcalibur Orbit obliterates Maximum Garuda
 - Destroy cannot be used effectively with mG
 - Spriggan Requiem has less stamina than Deep Chaos, if the comparison of the match-up they had using Bearing against mG is to be used as any indication
 - I didn't include formal test results, but Xtreme-based attackers had a tough time with mG Orbit, as expected. It was pretty one-sided in mG's favour.

I would surmise that if Maximum Garuda was unbanned, it would find use as a solid counter to Destroy and Xtreme-based combos. Right now, there really is no 100% counter to either of those things. I don't like lowering the viability of Xtreme-based combos, but at the same time I don't know if overall that would actually be the case because an assortment of Revolve, Bearing, Orbit, and Atomic-based combos (which are vulnerable to Xtreme to one degree or another) would also probably become even more viable than they are now due to their necessity in countering mG. Destroy can also counter those things if in the opposite spin direction, but it would be less widely applicable with Maximum Garuda around as a threat.

So, based on my experience I think that it is worth giving Maximum Garuda a chance to come back. Would love to see more results from you guys before we make a decision, though!
wont right spin bearing based combo be just one trick ponies? I mean other than countering mG what else can dC bearing do? Pretty sure right spin orbit and atomic can destroy it.
(Feb. 04, 2018  2:18 AM)Rebel Blader Wrote: wont right spin bearing based combo be just one trick ponies? I mean other than countering mG what else can dC bearing do? Pretty sure right spin orbit and atomic can destroy it.

Probably counter left-spin stamina combos to some degree. I imagine Sr Bearing (Left Spin) would be more popular, though.
(Feb. 04, 2018  2:24 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Feb. 04, 2018  2:18 AM)Rebel Blader Wrote: wont right spin bearing based combo be just one trick ponies?  I mean other than countering mG what else can dC bearing do?  Pretty sure right spin orbit and atomic can destroy it.

Probably counter left-spin stamina combos to some degree. I imagine Sr Bearing (Left Spin) would be more popular, though.
i can see that happening with Sr Bearing (which can probably beat same spin atomic too)  but not with dC Bearing as its ver burst prone.
Thanks for the tests, Kei! I'm a little more confident about unbanning mG now, though I do still worry a bit about Bearing being its primary counter since I'm not too sure how usable it would be against anything vaguely aggressive (though from what I've heard, Sr Bearing seems more resistant to bursting than other Bearing combos).  

I do have a few questions about the Bearing tests though:
- Was there any particular reason that you used 7 for right spin Sr Bearing, and 0 for left spin? Is 0 vs 7 similar to Polish/Yell vs Spread in
  that 0 performs better in opposite spin, but 7 has more Stamina in same spin?
- If this is the case, wouldn't dF.0B.Br have a better chance of defeating mG Orbit/Atomic than dF.7G.Br would? Bump's lack of LAD compared to
  Glaive wouldn't matter if Bearing doesn't fall over.
- (Kind of a stupid question, but) Were these tests done with your "good" Bearing or your "bad" one? This is one of the cases where I'd want to
  see tests from other people, since I wouldn't want to unban mG just because it loses to one *particularly* good Bearing that doesn't account
  for variations in free spin/spring tightness.
i just bought 3 fresh mG layers, looking forward to the potential unbanning, along with the rest of #TeamStamina!
(Feb. 04, 2018  5:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: Thanks for the tests, Kei! I'm a little more confident about unbanning mG now, though I do still worry a bit about Bearing being its primary counter since I'm not too sure how usable it would be against anything vaguely aggressive (though from what I've heard, Sr Bearing seems more resistant to bursting than other Bearing combos).

Like aC, Sr is indeed a bit more resistant to bursting on Bearing due to its teeth. 

(Feb. 04, 2018  5:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: - Was there any particular reason that you used 7 for right spin Sr Bearing, and 0 for left spin? Is 0 vs 7 similar to Polish/Yell vs Spread in
  that 0 performs better in opposite spin, but 7 has more Stamina in same spin?

I only switched to 7 because I had heard from TraniacJ that it was better overall for stamina than 0. I haven't tested them directly that much yet to know myself, but decided to switch.

(Feb. 04, 2018  5:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: Bump's lack of LAD compared to Glaive wouldn't matter if Bearing doesn't fall over.

Not so sure Bump is worse for life after death than Glaive. At BEYBLADE SHOGATSU I lost using Sr.0G.Ds (4 Star 0) versus OldSchool's Sr.0B.Ds 3-1 (my only win was via a lucky KO, his were all OS). Of course, there could be other factors too, but it's worth mentioning.

(Feb. 04, 2018  5:25 AM)Wombat Wrote: - (Kind of a stupid question, but) Were these tests done with your "good" Bearing or your "bad" one? This is one of the cases where I'd want to
  see tests from other people, since I wouldn't want to unban mG just because it loses to one *particularly* good Bearing that doesn't account
  for variations in free spin/spring tightness.

One of mine does spin for noticeably longer than the other when I flick the tip with my finger, but even the one that spins for a shorter period of time is still pretty decent. I think I switched between the two during these tests pretty evenly, but I don't have an exact figure for you.
Well I was Bored, SOoooooo I tried to go and Counter Garuda to see if there more Seemingly Consistent Counters:

AND I FOUND IT!!!!

[All was done Normal Launched]

[i]Crash Ragnaruk 0.Bump Revolve VS Maximum Garuda 0.Bump Orbit:

cR.0B.R: 19 wins (All Bursts)
mG.0B.O: 1 win (1 OS)
cR.0B.R Win Rate: 95%

So cR basically had control here. I'm certain the 1 OS mG had was a fluke.

Lets Try the Metal God Chip on mG

[i][i]Crash Ragnaruk 0.Bump Revolve VS M-Maximum Garuda 0.Bump Orbit:[/i]

cR.0B.R: 9 wins (All Bursts)
M-mG.0B.O: 1 win (1 OS)

cR.0B.R Win Rate: 90%

So cR basically had control here. I'm certain the 1 OS M-mG had was a fluke still but it held on a bit more.


When more is done maybe we can unban this. [Maybe not the Hasbro one Yet]


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