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MFB: Standard :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion

Sep. 24, 2012  4:14 AM
 
There's not enough testing of Killerken Killerken. We only have Zionson's tests to go on and they are limited in scope.

An attacker not beating many defenders isn't unusual and in this case it's largely a matter of Defense changing to stand up to Flash, as they now rely on tips with lower stamina than before.

Killerken Dragooon is far from a pure attack type, and while it could be added, classification would be a concern, and it's definitely not enough to warrant removing Flash, for example.

SA165 needs more formal defense testing before it can be added, and while the small amount of testing we have thus far indicates it could, its survival in its more unwieldy mode, the mode in which it slightly outperformed BD145, could be a concern.
Sep. 24, 2012  11:17 AM
 
Keep Flash then. But remember its usage will start to decline quickly very soon...

B:D niche in certain combo's are notable but not top tier worthy...

I would add MF-H MLD TR145 EWD and MF-H GP TR145 EWD in spin equalizers.

As for Killerken Dragooon, it performs best as an attacker rather than a spin equalizer, defender, or balance type.

If there was an honorable mention, then Kudos to: MSF-H/MSF Saramanda Saramanda B:D.
Killerken Killerken needs to be tested much more.

Saramanda Saramanda should also be added into defense.
Sep. 24, 2012  5:07 PM
 
(Sep. 24, 2012  11:17 AM)Ya Wrote: Keep Flash then. But remember its usage will start to decline quickly very soon...
Add Metal Flat problem solved. MF H Flash Orion W145 Mf say sup

(Sep. 24, 2012  11:17 AM)Ya Wrote: BGrin niche in certain combo's are notable but not top tier worthy...
This has been said already

(Sep. 24, 2012  11:17 AM)Ya Wrote: I would add MF-H MLD TR145 EWD and MF-H GP TR145 EWD in spin equalizers.
Been added under the Stamina section of the current tier list in the advanced forum
As for Killerken Dragooon, it performs best as an attacker rather than a spin equalizer, defender, or balance type.

(Sep. 24, 2012  11:17 AM)Ya Wrote: If there was an honorable mention, then Kudos to: MSF-H/MSF Saramanda Saramanda BGrin.
Duo BD does it better then Saramanda Saramanda. Refer to MSF H Revizer Dragoooon SA165 EWD Testing thread

(Sep. 24, 2012  11:17 AM)Ya Wrote: Killerken Killerken needs to be tested much more.
This has already been said several times. Kei is going to try and get some test done.

(Sep. 24, 2012  11:17 AM)Ya Wrote: Saramanda Saramanda should also be added into defense.
To this
Kei Wrote:Considered:
- Saramanda Saramanda/Revizer Saramanda for Defense. Still not sure on this one ...
I like Saramanda Saramanda. But I prefer Revizer Revizer. Heck even Revizer/Dragooon Dragooon has some defense capabilities from the tests ive done.
Sep. 24, 2012  5:13 PM
 
shoudnt scythe be used for stamina purposes? cuz i still think due to its free- spinning PC frame its able to take a lot of hits without loosing much stamina?
Sep. 24, 2012  5:19 PM
 
(Sep. 24, 2012  5:13 PM)gameboysuperman Wrote: shoudnt scythe be used for stamina purposes? cuz i still think due to its free- spinning PC frame its able to take a lot of hits without loosing much stamina?

Scythe was used for stamina for a short while. But Phantom & Duo outclass it now.
Sep. 24, 2012  5:32 PM
 
(Sep. 24, 2012  12:24 AM)GaHooleone Wrote:
(Sep. 24, 2012  12:17 AM)Ultra Wrote: Same I feel it is balance considering its weird ability to outspin things despite being on a rubber attack bottom. Also I feel it should be noted however that the which rubber attack bottom is used on it probably makes little to no difference.

This.

I mean, I know it happens, but I still cannot understand the reason why. I've looked for several explanations physics-wise, but I really have no idea why this happens. Even on R2F this occurs.

I agree with Meow's description of Killerken Dragooon DF105LRF by the way. I could test it as well, but I don't have Killerken thanks to the price of that set...

It cost 35 dollars on amazon
heres the link http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008B43...S6Z1KFLHAA
Sep. 24, 2012  5:56 PM
 
Flash W145 MF will be outspun by standard left spin defense combos such as MF-H Revizer Dragooon BD145 RDF.

Duo B:D gets an honorable mention as well but is not top-tier worthy.

Spin-Equalizers should not be on the same section as Stamina Types.

160 needs to be added for stamina.

Cosmic needs to be added for attack.

Hasbro Jade needs to be added for attack also.
Sep. 24, 2012  6:23 PM
 
(Sep. 24, 2012  5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: Flash W145 MF will be outspun by standard left spin defense combos such as MF-H Revizer Dragooon BD145 RDF.

Duo BGrin gets an honorable mention as well but is not top-tier worthy.

Spin-Equalizers should not be on the same section as Stamina Types.

160 needs to be added for stamina.

Cosmic needs to be added for attack.

Hasbro Jade needs to be added for attack also.


I know I'm not a Beyblade expert but...
I think Jade needs waaay more testing, Cosmic is iffy, VariAres, Blitz, and Flash outclass it.
Sep. 24, 2012  6:30 PM
 
(Sep. 24, 2012  5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: Flash W145 MF will be outspun by standard left spin defense combos such as MF-H Revizer Dragooon BD145 RDF.
Maybe, its never been tested IIRC. But Im pretty sure a decent attack player can ko that. And RDF does have bad stamina. This does require more testing Ill admit.

(Sep. 24, 2012  5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: Duo BGrin gets an honorable mention as well but is not top-tier worthy.
There is no honorable section on the tier list.

(Sep. 24, 2012  5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: Spin-Equalizers should not be on the same section as Stamina Types.
I would agree with this. I can see why Kei put them in stamina. Spin Stealers are sort of a stamina type. Its more of a subsection of stamina. But I would feel comfortable with either them staying under stamina or add a spin stealer/Equalization section

(Sep. 24, 2012  5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: 160 needs to be added for stamina.
More testing needs to be done. But 160 was added to Duo

(Sep. 24, 2012  5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: Cosmic needs to be added for attack.
Why? Its okay for Hasbro. But it hasn't impacted the metagame at all. Has it topped ANYWHERE? No. Blitz>Cosmic

(Sep. 24, 2012  5:56 PM)Ya Wrote: Hasbro Jade needs to be added for attack also.

Like I said about cosmic. Its okay for Hasbro. BUT Blitz is better. Why would we take Blitz off and add something worse? Wouldn't make sense.






Sep. 24, 2012  9:42 PM
 
Dark Mousy, Cosmic can KO Duo BD145 CS. It can K.O. Duo BD145 CS much more consistently when compared to BOTH VariAres and Blitz.

Jade is better than Cosmic for attack. However, neither Cosmic or Jade should be added in attack, so you are right in that aspect.

Edit: I was wrong.

Jade is about the same as Cosmic in Attack. Neither should go on the list. They both sadly lack the raw powerful smash attack.
Sep. 24, 2012  9:55 PM
 
(Sep. 24, 2012  9:42 PM)Ya Wrote: Dark Mousy, Cosmic can KO Duo BD145 CS. It can K.O. Duo BD145 CS much more consistently when compared to BOTH VariAres and Blitz.

Jade is better than Cosmic for attack. However, neither Cosmic or Jade should be added in attack, so you are right in that aspect.

Edit: I was wrong.

Jade is about the same as Cosmic in Attack. Neither should go on the list. They both sadly lack the raw powerful smash attack.

Of course i was right because i looked at the test. If your going to post inthis particular thread please make sure you have test to back up what you say. No test=No post
Sep. 25, 2012  5:58 AM
 
No one should humor ya's posts with responses, btw. Just trust me on this.

EDIT: See?
Sep. 25, 2012  6:58 AM
 
time to give my 2c worth:

seeing as most metas (referencing the Winning Combinations thread), are being dominated by track heights of 145 and higher, i personally think that the lowest track for flash combos should be 120 on CH120 to make good contact against 145 heights. i might do some tests later with MF-H Flash Escolpio 105 RF later against MF-H Death aquario BD145/SA165 (attack mode) RDF to verify this. however seeing as the most popular tracks for flash now are CH120, S130, and GB/H/W145, i see no reason for 105 to remain on the list

i also echo Ultra's opinion that MF-H Gravity Perseus (STAM) BD145 RDF is rather underrated. i personally love how this combo easily draws with non-Death based stamina customs, and if not, beats them by a few rotations. i know that currently the LDD/LDG is more popular, but i feel that the dual spin capabilities of Gravity gives it an edge in terms of versatility. with dragooon becoming more available and thus more popular, having a left-spin locked spin stealer can be detrimental. that said, no one can say for sure that dragooon cannot KO gravity on flat tips (it probably can with relative ease, i would imagine). yet even in early testing this gravity combo never held it's ground against attack combos anyway, so it's not like it's role has changed significantly in any way. when i get my LDD soon i will test GP v. LDD with GP in right spin to see which has the edge over the other. i also believe that we need to test GP BD145 RDF in right spin as a counter to dragooon combos, giving it a large and unique enough niche has a dual spin spin stealer which also counters what seems to be a new metagame defining chrome wheel

on the topic of dragooon, if dragooon sees enough use in the future death may have a place in anti-meta after all, but conclusions at this stage would be premature.

that's all for now! i hope i haven't embarrassed myself too much with my relative inexperience xP
Sep. 25, 2012  7:29 AM
 
Flash managed good results on 105RF against BD145, however with the advent of E230 and SA165 and an overall taller meta thanks to Zero G, it should be scrutinised again, for sure, and SA165RDF/CS tests would be good - though SA165's attack mode itself needs some more testing, personally I want to see whether its survival stacks up against BD145 and E230 as the only tests I've seen of it against attack (and this was with EDS vs Flash MF) had it only get 5% higher than BD145. Also given it's shape, I'd like to see a battery of height matchup tests done against it with an attacker that could feasibly outspin it to see if the shape in attack mode is exploitable (eg whether it could be forced to scrape if something hits between the wheel and track).

MF-H Gravity Perseus (STA) BD145RDF does deserve consideration (I think the rest of us decided it wasn't worth it after Yamislayer and Galaxy had their argument over it), and I think I echo you when I say I think the deciding factors are whether it can do well against any of the best/most popular Dragooon combos (both the more aggressive and the more stamina oriented onses) and whether (if it doesn't by doing that) it can differentiate itself from them - if it can, then I think it probably deserves a spot (especially as death stamina is pretty rare).

Sep. 25, 2012  2:22 PM
 
i sat down for a while today to do some serious testing, here are the results:

Standard procedure
Beylauncer LR (oiled gears)
Death 60-70% shot in the middle
Flash banked at 100% (necessary to get the aggressive movement out of my rather worn RF)

MF-H Flash Escolpio 105RF v. MF-H Death Aquario SA165 (attack mode) RDF

Spoiler (Click to View)
Results:
Flash 10 wins (2 OS, 8 KO)
Death 10 wins (8 OS, 2 KO)

what i noticed in this test is that death was easily knocked over, causing the plastic ring on RDF to scrape, leading to some OS's by flash but also some KO's by death, which tbh were really fun to watch xD i refuse to do tests for SA165 in normal mode with death because i have already almost broken my MF-H and the thread in my SA165 from previous attempts to do so, and do not wish to aggravate the situation.

Benchmark: MF-H Flash Escolpio 105RF v. MF-H Death Aquario BD145 RDF

Spoiler (Click to View)
Results:
Flash: 8 wins (8 KO)
Death: 12 wins (12 KO)

i'm not sure if these tests are telling me that my flash is getting wayyy too worn... good thing i have a new one coming in the mail that just reached beijing today! hopefully it'll get dropped off along with all the other good stuff that i got, including a new R^2F to replace my rather worn RF (may have also resulted in the rather poor attack performances above)... probably gna have to redo these tests, which kinda makes me annoyed at myself cuz i put quite some time into them, only to realized i was foolish to do so with underperforming parts =( i hope you guys can use these tests some way or another!
Sep. 25, 2012  3:57 PM
 
slyx - Do you mind putting these tests in the SA165 Discussion Thread? That way we can discuss them without gumming up this thread.
Sep. 25, 2012  4:25 PM
 
Finally, I'm at a computer to reply to this...

First off Ingulit, thank you SO much for creating the thread. Maybe we can get some actual discussion of the metagame discussed outside of the Advanced Forum, and somewhere like Beyblade Random Thoughts, where posts like the ones here, are usually lost by (surprise! Random Thoughts!).

To start it off, I'll just go with a few things off the top of my head:

Attack: Everything here seems fine to me. I'd like to see H145 added to Vari, though. Given it does imbalance Vari, but you can't deny that it only adds to its offensive power. R145 >> H145 though, so yeah. Just a personal opinion.

Defense: I'd like to see a side note or something mentioning that if you can do a Synchrome with any two wheels, it can be used for defense (pure weight based defense) but certain combinations like Revizer Revizer or Saramanda Saramanda should be used first if available.

160. It's essentially a shorter 230, and a bit narrower. Might be worth looking into.

SA165, should it be added? I don't own the part, nor have I kept up with the discussion very much, only skimming over results every now and then, but it looks like a defense powerhouse. And how does the Zero-G attack mode fare in defense as well?

I'd vouch for RSF being removed. Given that it has good grip and better balance then RS, I still believe RS does most things RSF can do, but better.

I also vouch for TH170 being removed. It's too light in an increasingly large weight based metagame, and I don't think that it will be useful much longer. It's still a great defense part, don't get me wrong - just not against things like Flash W145MF/R²F.

Stamina: SA165 here too. It seems to be doing its job well on MSF-H Revizer Dragooon SA165EWD by adding LAD to it, even though it's in left spin. Does it do well on Phantom/Duo?

What's with SWD on the list? IIRC, it was always inferior to WD/SD/D, but if that's true, should it belong there? I don't own one, so I can't say for sure. Tongue_out

A couple more things I agree with you are removing AD145. While still great, and proving that to be so in tournaments, W145 >> AD145 any day of the week.

Basalt?
Yes.
Yes.
Also, yes.
Great balance wheel, especially in MF-H Basalt Horogium R145RF in particular.

Dragooon should be added into a spin stealer section with other wheels, not sure which though.

Aaaaaaannnnddddd that's about it! Smile

(sorry that there's a lot of questions in this post)
Sep. 25, 2012  4:49 PM
 
Kain i think i'm going to redo these tests tmr or the day after once i get my new stock of parts, so i'll hold off posting the results in the SA165 thread until i see how a new flash and primed R^2F instead of a worn RF perform.

BIG EDIT:

so i was messing around with MF-H Gravity Perseus (STAM) BD145 RDF today while waiting for my new lot of beys to arrive. it could consistently OS stamina types above 145 heights and defense combos, no surprise there. but i noticed it had problems winning clearly against W145 based stamina combos and LTSCs, always getting draws and half rotation wins. not satisfied with the combo's performance, i tried banking GP in left spin to get a slightly aggressive movement to see if ko's were possible. while i was able to get the aggressive movement i wanted, all GP seemed to do was brush against the stamina combo, never really getting a clean KO hit. this was when i had my huge moment of epiphany, and switched GP to right spin and banking.

the results were absolutely AMAZING. even with the stamina clear wheel, GP walked all over Death Cygnus W145 WD, Phantom Cancer W145 WD, and Phantom Cancer 85 WD in clean 10-0 shut outs (didn't do 20 because it was so clear that the stamina combos stood no chance)

i think the reason for this is because the same-spin GP combo is actually smashing into the stamina combo instead of pushing it/letting itself be pushed around when it is in opposite spin. i don't have Duo, so if someone could test this combo against Duo Cygnus W145 WD (least recoil, and thus should be the hardest stamina combo to KO) that would be awesome.

if my epiphany leads to a new niche for this GP combo to not only OS HTSCs, defense combos, BUT ALSO KO 145 based and LTSCs, i think that would be a major breakthrough in considering this combo for the top-tier list as well, given it's overwhelming versatility over anything that's not attack. GP still performs pitifully against attack, and that's not going to change unless it magically gets re-released at a 40+g weight xD i kid, i kid.

on the launch: the launch is actually rather difficult to get right, especially so on my rather worn RDF. banking to steeply results in hilarious self KO's in less than 4 seconds, but straight shots don't garner enough movement and speed for a KO.
Sep. 26, 2012  11:14 PM
 
Interesting. Sorry if I can't say much, but that is odd. I'll try it myself tomorrow if I remember, though I doubt I'll be well enough to do full tests.
As for the SA165 tests, not much I can say, but I appreciate them greatly.
Sep. 27, 2012  7:03 AM
 
Okay, I finally got around to re-doing my top-tier list, and boy was it an update. I'll post a cleaned-up version first with a version with an explanation of every change afterward. I'll also be posting this both in here and in the advanced section since this is a lot to chew on and discuss.

BE WARNED: THERE IS A MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT APPROACHING, PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK.


PROPOSED TIER LIST

Quote:
ATTACK


Flash
  • Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces, Horogium
  • MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
  • MF-H Flash Orion W145 MF

VariAres
  • MF-H VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)


DEFENSE


Duo
  • Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Saggitario II, Hades
  • MF-H Duo ____ BD145 (RB/RDF)
  • MF-H Duo ____ E230 (RB/RS/RSF)

Reviser
  • MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145 (RB/RDF/RS)
  • MSF-H Reviser Reviser E230 (CS/RB/RS/RSF)


ANTI-ATTACK


Diablo
  • Clear Wheels: Kerbecs, Unicorno II
  • MF-H Diablo ____ BD145 (RF/R2F)

Basalt
  • MF-H Basalt Horogium (R145/TR145) (RF/R2F)


STAMINA


Phantom
  • Clear Wheels: Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Hades
  • Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  • Phantom ____ TH170 (D/SD)

Duo
  • Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus
  • Duo ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  • Duo ____ TH170 (D/SD)


SPIN STEALERS


Dragooon
  • MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD

Meteo L-Drago
  • (MF-H) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
  • MF-H Meteo L-Drago TR145 EWD


BALANCE
  • (MF-H/MF-M) Duo Cygnus 230 MB
  • MF-H L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF


EXPLANATIONS

ATTACK

Flash
  • Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces, Horogium
  • MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
  • MF-H Flash Orion W145 MF

**Changes/Comments:
  • Added Horogium to clear wheels based on past discussion; we need to finalize the best clear wheels for Flash since there are so many good options.
  • Removed 105 and 125 simply due to the fact that nobody uses them, and because the other tracks have put up much better results. Obviously this move is up for debate, but seeing as this list is supposed to show both the best of the best and what are the most prominent tournament threats, I feel they should be removed. I am also trying to make the list more concise where I can manage it since I'm adding so much other stuff.
  • Changed 130 to S130 because S130 is strictly better than its other 130-height brethren on Flash and this is a top-tier list.
  • Made the W145MF combo very specific since it is more picky about its pieces (namely clear wheels) than RF-based Flash variants. This is also done to specify W145 is the most effective when used with MF on Flash and vice-versa, such that W145RF or H145MF aren't really that good.
  • Removed regular Metal Faces in favor of MF-H. Beyblades of all types are getting heavier, and attackers need all the weight they can get to compensate.

VariAres
  • MF-H VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

**Changes/Comments:
  • Removed regular Metal Faces in favor of MF-H. Beyblades of all types are getting heavier, and attackers need all the weight they can get anymore to compensate.

**Overall Attack Changes/Comments:
  • While I didn't change anything other than the Face Bolts on VariAres, the sole fact that it's still even on the list is actually something to take note of. Let's face it, both Blitz and VariAres pale in comparison to the recoilless monster that is Flash, so much so that despite how much I love Blitz, I don't have it on this list anymore. The only reason VariAres is still here is because it spins left, and that's a tenuous reason for it to stay at best. I think if we get a decent Zero-G attack wheel VariAres will have to get retired.

DEFENSE

Duo
  • Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Saggitario II, Hades
  • MF-H Duo ____ BD145 (RB/RDF)
  • MF-H Duo ____ E230 (RB/RS/RSF)

**Changes/Comments:
  • This entry in the tier list has been changed a lot, and as such I expect a lot of questions about it. Hopefully I can clear most of them up here.
  • I updated and expanded the clear wheel section a ton. There have been many, many heavy and well-balanced clear wheels that have been released that work wonders for defense that haven't been added for seemingly no reason other than the list not being updated frequently. Hades and Saggitario II both hit the 3.3g mark, and I feel Gasher should be mentioned seperately from Cancer since they are different. I did not include Kerbecs or Nemesis because while they are certainly heavy, their weight distribution does not play well with Duo. I'm sure I'm missing a few, so please tell me if I left something out or of one of the ones I listed doesn't actually work well with Duo.
  • To be honest, Duo's place on the defense list is shaky with Synchroms existing, but I do think Duo still CURRENTLY deserves a spot due to its amazing stamina. While I love me my Death wheel, I did remove Death since it doesn't have the weight of Synchroms or the survivability of Duo, and thus can't really be considered top-tier anymore. If we get a Synchrom wheel that has even passable stamina, I can very much see Duo getting taken off the defense list.
  • Now for the fun part, the track/tip combinations. I removed a large portion of the tips for each track as I feel if you're using a wheel as light as Duo you NEED to have the right track/tip combo to perform well defensively. I removed CS entirely because it doesn't have enough raw defense to stand up to Flash. For BD145 I removed RS and RSF as well as they don't have enough balance to perform as well as RB or RDF without scraping, as if you're using Duo over Synchroms for defense you should be maximizing the custom's stamina as much as possible. For E230 I removed RDF as in my own experience I've found it doesn't perform as well on tall tracks (when it starts to wobble RDF will scrape), but if I am mistaken please correct me.

Reviser
  • MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145 (RB/RDF/RS)
  • MSF-H Reviser Reviser E230 (CS/RB/RS/RSF)

**Changes/Comments:
  • All you have to do is put two Revisers together with a MSF-H you've already got a good defensive bey. If you think this shouldn't be on the list, you're wrong.
  • The track/tip setups are different from Duo since Reviser Reviser has such amazing defense already. If you want to maximize your defense, put RS on BD145 and you'll almost never end up outside the arena at the price of your stamina. Opposite of that, I kept CS on for E230 because Synchrom + E230 is already an amazing defensive setup against Flash to the point where the slight defense loss from using CS over a pure rubber tip isn't that noticeable compared to the stamina you get back. Note that I did not keep CS on for BD145; I do think that E230 is an overall better track for defense against Flash, such that I don't feel BD145CS is nearly as good as RB, RDF, or RS.

**Overall Defense Changes/Comments:
  • I did keep RSF on this list, though since both RS and RB exist I can see an argument being made against it. RS is basically the king of pure defense, while RB has probably the best stamina a pure rubber tip can have. RSF lies in between, and I feel it is a very competitive middleground indeed. Basically, if you want your RS custom to have more stamina, you can either go the RB route for the best stability and stamina from a defense tip or RSF for more stability and no fear of slipping over the Tornado Ridge (RB's main downfall).
  • I am heavily considering just adding a "Synchrom" section since any given Synchrom has the weight to be effective at defense (even Orojya Orojya and Pheonic Pheonic). It's not as effective as Reviser Reviser, but any Synchrom is arguably better at pure defense than even Duo.
  • I do not have Rubber Flat on any of these customs, and the reason for that will be made clear by the existance of the next section.
  • I did not add SA165, though if testing follows my hunch I imagine it becoming the third top defense track very soon. I'd love to see a triangle of defense power between BD145, E230, and SA165 since they all offer such different benefits, though there hasn't been nearly enough testing with SA165 for it to have a place on here yet.

ANTI-ATTACK

Diablo
  • Clear Wheels: Kerbecs, Unicorno II
  • MF-H Diablo ____ BD145 (RF/R2F)

Basalt
  • MF-H Basalt Horogium (R145/TR145) (RF/R2F)

**Overall Anti-Attack Changes/Comments:
  • The most obvious change to this section is that it exists! I do believe that Anti-Attack deserves its own spot, and as such I'm adding it to my list.
  • I moved Diablo from the Balance section to here since, well, it's anti-attack.
  • Basalt makes its return in my list as I've had great success with both of the listed customs and they are both showing great promise with test results. This is certainly a questionable change, but I think if you are going to talk about anti-attack at all I feel it deserves a spot.


STAMINA

Phantom
  • Clear Wheels: Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Hades
  • Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  • Phantom ____ TH170 (D/SD)

**Changes/Comments:
  • Hokay, I removed a TON of stuff, so hear me out. That said, I'm not about to say I'm right about everything, so question anything I say! I do want to eventually make this list into a true top-tier list by removing all but the absolute best parts, but if you think I removed anything for the wrong reason, say so!
  • Before I get into the stuff I removed, I need to point out that I added Hades to the clear wheels. I've said it before and I'll say it agian, I do think Hades is bar none the best clear wheel for stamina Phantom customs, and I'll do any tests I need to to prove it. I also added Gasher since it is different from Cancer and they both work well. I removed Aquario per everyone's suggestion.
  • Okay, onto what I removed. Some of it is simple like 85; honestly I removed it simply because absolutely nobody uses it anymore. As much as I love low-track customs, they've really fallen out of favor lately.
  • Though this is an old-ish update, I replaced AD145 with W145 just because W145 is strictly better. Again, I'm trying to get rid of all but the best, so while AD145 is good, it's just not good enough.
  • I removed SWD from the W145 list. I did a lot of research into SWD and it seems like it was added to the list without much actual testing; as such, I don't want it to be on there until it's been tested some more by more people. From my own experience it's not nearly as good as WD.
  • I kept EWD on the list even though in my experience I've noticed it's not as good for pure stamina types as WD. I would have removed it if it wasn't for the fact that EWD seems to do better against spin-stealers, a matchup that is becoming ever more relevant thanks to Dragooon.
  • I removed BD145EDS and I expect a lot of flak about it, but it's for the same reason I kept EWD: simply put, using anything on BD145 that isn't RDF agianst something that spins left is the same as handing your opponent a free win. Not only that, but from all my personal testing BD145EDS just doesn't have nearly the amount of stamina that W145 and TH170 offer. I understand that there is a lot of appeal to having a really heavy stamina type, but when it auto-loses to the ever-growing threat of left-spin I can't justify listing it as being as good as the other two tracks on this list.
  • Like I said before, my current goal with this list is to only list the absolute best of the best. Along those lines, I removed 230 in favor of TH170 since TH170 is infinitely more versatile. If you're looking for a tall stamina type, you should ideally be using TH170 over 230; I know 230 is much easier to come by, but that's a topic for Build Me A Combo, not the top-tier list.
  • I considered PD for TH170, though I have had better experience with TH170D and TH170SD on Phantom since PD doesn't handle recoil as well.
  • The topic of whether Phantom or Duo is the better stamina wheel comes up a lot, and a very compelling case can be made for Duo since it has so much less recoil than Phantom. Still, Phantom is an absolute powerhouse for stamina, so much so that I still consider it a very competitive wheel despite its recoil.

Duo
  • Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus
  • Duo ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  • Duo ____ TH170 (D/SD)

**Changes/Comments:
  • I covered basically all the changes for the track/tip choices in the Phantom section.
  • I added Gasher since it is technically different from Cancer and both work well. I also considered removing Aquario, but I couldn't find as concrete a reason for its removal on Duo as I could on Phantom.
  • I really, REALLY want to add 160PD to this list. Like, a lot. It's bar none my favorite Duo stamina custom, though I can understand not wanting to add it since I'm basically the only one who has tested it.

**Overall Stamina Changes/Comments:
  • Yet again I have to mention SA165. It seems like it could be very good for stamina, but there simply isn't enough testing with it for it to be added any time soon.


SPIN STEALERS

Dragooon
  • MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD

**Changes/Comments:
  • This custom has seen a ton of tournament play, and from all the testing that I and other people have done it's for a very good reason. To say that this custom is currently a tournament threat is putting things lightly.
  • Dragooon is an absolutely amazing and incredibly versatile wheel. There has been a ton of testing with many Dragooon variants that have all shown great promise, so I can see this section of the top-tier list being expanded very soon. Currently the SA165 variant is the only one here since it's seeing so much tournament play already.

Meteo L-Drago
  • (MF-H) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
  • MF-H Meteo L-Drago TR145 EWD

**Changes/Comments:
  • I'm not going to lie, I was very hesitant to add Meteo to this list since it is so anemic weight-wise, but these two customs have helped a lot of people win tournaments and as such I feel deserve a spot. If we get more Dragooon combos, though, I think this might get knocked off since Dragooon should in theory be safer to use thanks to its weight.
  • I was really unsure whether or not to list a MF-H on the Meteo L-Drago CH120EWD custom. The thread for it has it without one, but a lot of the time you see the custom being used with a Metal Face. I wound up putting it in parenthasis to try to show it is optional, though I'd prefer to have a more definite answer on the matter.
  • W2D. From my own experience I've found Meteo to actually work better with W2D than EWD for whatever reason, but there isn't nearly enough testing for it to be added to the list. I think it deserves looking into.

**Overall Spin Stealer Changes/Comments:
  • Like the Anti-Attack section, the biggest change is that this section now exists. In the same way that I feel that Anti-Attack customs are different enough to be listed seperate from regular defense customs, I feel that listing spin-stealers under stamina is cutting them short.
  • Like I mentioned in its section, I'm very hesitant to have Meteo on the list since it is so laughably light, but tournament results are hard to argue with.


BALANCE
  • (MF-H/MF-M) Duo Cygnus 230 MB
  • MF-H L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF

**Overall Balance Changes/Comments
  • I added MF-M to Duo ___ 230MB per the update to Uwik's thread. I also removed all the clear wheels except Cygnus both since Uwik specified in the thread that it's the best option and because I've found it to be the best clear wheel for Duo in my own experiences. I did keep MF-H on the list since the MF-H variant has won so many tournaments and is very much a huge tournament threat.
  • I would LOVE to see someone decide finally which is better, L-Drago Destroy or L-Drago Guardian. I want to favor Guardian for its weight alone, but I don't have both to do official testing. Until that is finalized I'm keeping both on the list, though I'd love to see that changed sometime soon.
  • I considered moving the L-Drago custom to the spin stealer section but this is very much a spin-steal/defense hybrid, thus landing it in Balance. This is actually the reason I'm favoring Guardian over Destroy since in theory Guardian's extra weight should give it more defense, but Destroy is the wheel you see listed in the Winning Customs thread most often.
  • I heavily, HEAVILY considered adding Metal Flat to the list of tips for the L-Drago custom seeing as I've seen that custom do great things, but there isn't enough formal testing on these forums for that to happen. If anyone else wants it added, they should post some test results!
Sep. 27, 2012  7:43 AM
 
Yo:

-Gravity not good enough for spin stealers? No Gravity BD145RDF? (it's featured a lot in the UK)
-What about Reviser Reviser for anti attack?
-I consider Phantom's recoil to be pretty major. In an age where there are Zero G combos where if they just touch it with any kind of force then it flies across the stadium I wouldn't consider that useful any more. Duo is better because of that IMO. Putting Duo on the list makes people assume that they're just as good when I don't think that's true.
-Um lots of metagames favour 230 over TH170 (the UK for example)
-B:D? As with 230 whether the experts think it is top tier or not it still comes out a lot in tournaments. Clearly personal preference and experience sometimes trump testing knowledge.
Sep. 27, 2012  8:02 AM
 
ATTACK
Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Flash
Escolpio/ Orion/Pisces/lynx/CH120/125/130/W145/GB145/H145 RF/R2F/MF
Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
Blitz removed as it cannot even handle death well.

DEFENSE
Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Kerbecs BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
Metal-Stone-Face-Heavy Reviser Reviser BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RS/RF
Metal-Stone-Face-Heavy Saramanda Saramanda BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RS/RF


STAMINA
Phantom Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD
Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230/160 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD/PD

BALANCE
Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 230MB
Metal Face-Heavy Gravity Perseus BD145RDF
Metal Face-Heavy L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF


SPIN STEALERS
Metal-Face-Heavy Meteo L-Drago CH120/TR145 EWD
Metal-Face-Heavy Revizer Dragooon SA165 EWD
Sep. 27, 2012  8:03 AM
 
(Sep. 27, 2012  7:43 AM)Ultra Wrote: Yo:

-Gravity not good enough for spin stealers? No Gravity BD145RDF? (it's featured a lot in the UK)
-What about Reviser Reviser for anti attack?
-I consider Phantom's recoil to be pretty major. In an age where there are Zero G combos where if they just touch it with any kind of force then it flies across the stadium I wouldn't consider that useful any more. Duo is better because of that IMO. Putting Duo on the list makes people assume that they're just as good when I don't think that's true.
-Um lots of metagames favour 230 over TH170 (the UK for example)
-B:D? As with 230 whether the experts think it is top tier or not it still comes out a lot in tournaments. Clearly personal preference and experience sometimes trump testing knowledge.

I considered Gravity, but Dragooon is kind of really stealing its thunder. That said, I really like that Gravity custom a lot, and I'd love to see some more testing on it.

Nobody uses Reviser Reviser for anti-attack, like, at all?

I have to disagree, I very much think Phantom and Duo are both competitive stamina wheels despite Phantom's recoil. I would probably favor Duo personally, but I haven't seen enough testing to show it's THAT much better. Furthermore, I've never seen Zero-G customs that can "touch [Phantom] with any kind of force" to send it "flying" that aren't basically attack types, and stamina types shouldn't be used against those kinds of beys anyway.

Why is it favored, exactly? Is it just because of availability or is there a concrete reason?

B:D is terrible in the BB-10. If you want to talk about something that goes flying at a mere touch, you should talk about B:D. Not even the heaviest Synchrom with a MSF-H on B:D can withstand a stray sneeze in the stadium's direction.
Sep. 27, 2012  8:19 AM
 
(Sep. 27, 2012  8:03 AM)Ingulit Wrote:
(Sep. 27, 2012  7:43 AM)Ultra Wrote: Yo:

-Gravity not good enough for spin stealers? No Gravity BD145RDF? (it's featured a lot in the UK)
-What about Reviser Reviser for anti attack?
-I consider Phantom's recoil to be pretty major. In an age where there are Zero G combos where if they just touch it with any kind of force then it flies across the stadium I wouldn't consider that useful any more. Duo is better because of that IMO. Putting Duo on the list makes people assume that they're just as good when I don't think that's true.
-Um lots of metagames favour 230 over TH170 (the UK for example)
-BGrin? As with 230 whether the experts think it is top tier or not it still comes out a lot in tournaments. Clearly personal preference and experience sometimes trump testing knowledge.

I considered Gravity, but Dragooon is kind of really stealing its thunder. That said, I really like that Gravity custom a lot, and I'd love to see some more testing on it.

Nobody uses Reviser Reviser for anti-attack, like, at all?

I have to disagree, I very much think Phantom and Duo are both very much competitive stamina wheels despite Phantom's recoil. I would probably favor Duo personally, but I haven't seen enough testing to show it's THAT much better. Furthermore, I've never seen Zero-G customs that can "touch [Phantom] with any kind of force" to send it "flying" that aren't basically attack types, and stamina types shouldn't be used against those kinds of beys anyway.

Why is it favored, exactly? Is it just because of availability or is there a concrete reason?

BGrin is terrible in the BB-10. If you want to talk about something that goes flying at a mere touch, you should talk about BGrin. Not even the heaviest Synchrom with a MSF-H on BGrin can withstand a stray sneeze in the stadium's direction.

Really? It should be tested then I think.

Really? Even not on aggressive tips like WSF and RDF?

I think it was due to personal testing showing different results to the testing by others and more availability.

Fine but it's used continuously by people in many areas. Maybe that's just because of availability though.
Sep. 27, 2012  12:39 PM
 
Ultra
imo one of the main features of anti attack is using a heavy wheel with enough recoil, and reviser reviser just simply doesn't match up to diablo (i don't have basalt so i can't speak for that) in terms of being able to withstand flash and counter-KO it
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