(May. 18, 2011 2:14 AM)Dan Wrote:yup the response is as expected.. Thing is, you were right. Never can claim anything lol. But whatever. I know where we stand. Also, should we post LT vs. MM results?(May. 18, 2011 1:30 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Try reading ?
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Competit...bos--20386
Most of the time you cannot claim the exclusivity of a customization in Beyblade. There is still only a limited amount of combinations possible, and even less that actually make sense to build, so is it really innovative if you just have more time than someone else and find something before others ? It is a debate.
Oh yeah, reading, not my forté. I'm thinking of buying the whole Robert Munch collection, you know. :V I missed that change, sorry.
Debate not worth it. So, mission complete Blue?
MF Lightning L Drago BD145LRF
Well, I'm surprised, because BD145 doesn't stand out as an Attack-part, and LLD worked better on lower tracks. God knows, I didn't stumble across it and I had AGES to do so. (That said, if it did, I wouldn't have noticed as mine doesn't actually work right). They found it and publicised it before anyone else. That, in my eyes, means they at least deserve some credit for bothering to spend time on the testing and experimentation required to not only find the combo, but make a thread about it within the constraints of our rules.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
(May. 18, 2011 12:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: Well, I'm surprised, because BD145 doesn't stand out as an Attack-part, and LLD worked better on lower tracks. God knows, I didn't stumble across it and I had AGES to do so. (That said, if it did, I wouldn't have noticed as mine doesn't actually work right). They found it and publicised it before anyone else. That, in my eyes, means they at least deserve some credit for bothering to spend time on the testing and experimentation required to not only find the combo, but make a thread about it within the constraints of our rules.
Thanks a lot th!nk. At least you notice it. Fact is, I barely get time to do anything and I am more than sure that before Dan and I used this, NO ONE bothered to try it because they were stuck in using it as a defense and stamina part. It was more than likely dismissed as an attack part due to the fact that it is so round and sticks out more than most wheels which would give off the idea that it would restrict attack ability. Same thing with Dan's maximum meteor. People were often afraid to use XF due to the fact that it was so fast and uncontrollable and even today, people still have issue with it but it is an amazing combo that exceeds the abilities of every spin attacker available and ever created. The only reason people aren't making the same "can't claim it as your own combo" arguement is because it is hard to use and it is not getting the reception it most definitely deserves.
Heck, if anyone wants to make that argument about MM, I'd stumbled across and been using MM before the thread popped up (I had it together as a combo in my box when reading the thread), though, this was because of Dan's previous LLD CH120XF thread and him explaining how to use XF.
Dan deserves ALL the credit, for getting it to work (I couldn't work it against BasaltBD145), actually SHARING it, and the main part: DOING THE DAMN TESTING.
Seriously, the effort required for testing is often hugely under-appreciated. At the very least, if you cannot claim it as your own combo, you guys can definitely claim to have "popularised" the combo's.
With this combo, while it IS more conventional, I certainly didn't consider BD145 for attack (I would've just used R145), Metal gives more force than plastic, so I considered it a silly idea. I certainly wouldn't call it convetional. Sure, someone would've found it eventually, but if it were so logical, I'd think BD145 for attack would've been proposed/popularised earlier than this was.
Yeah, sure, people would have found these combos eventually. And I don't think we need to say "CREDIT TO BLUEZEE/DAN" if we use them at tourneys and get a license for the use of combo, but I DO have a problem when people don't get credit where it's due. They found it and publicised it before anyone else.
Guess what, same thing happens in scientific circles. It's not the first person to find something, it's the first person to adequately write it up and publish it that gets the fame. Be it through independently discovering the same phenomenon, or doing an Edison and nicking the idea. I honestly don't feel this is that different.
I don't want to end up in a huge argument about this, I don't think anyone has meant anything to be offensive to anyone else. I'm just stating my opinion and view on things.
Oh, also, LT vs MM results would be REALLY nice. Especially with some details on how each combo was launched.
Dan deserves ALL the credit, for getting it to work (I couldn't work it against BasaltBD145), actually SHARING it, and the main part: DOING THE DAMN TESTING.
Seriously, the effort required for testing is often hugely under-appreciated. At the very least, if you cannot claim it as your own combo, you guys can definitely claim to have "popularised" the combo's.
With this combo, while it IS more conventional, I certainly didn't consider BD145 for attack (I would've just used R145), Metal gives more force than plastic, so I considered it a silly idea. I certainly wouldn't call it convetional. Sure, someone would've found it eventually, but if it were so logical, I'd think BD145 for attack would've been proposed/popularised earlier than this was.
Yeah, sure, people would have found these combos eventually. And I don't think we need to say "CREDIT TO BLUEZEE/DAN" if we use them at tourneys and get a license for the use of combo, but I DO have a problem when people don't get credit where it's due. They found it and publicised it before anyone else.
Guess what, same thing happens in scientific circles. It's not the first person to find something, it's the first person to adequately write it up and publish it that gets the fame. Be it through independently discovering the same phenomenon, or doing an Edison and nicking the idea. I honestly don't feel this is that different.
I don't want to end up in a huge argument about this, I don't think anyone has meant anything to be offensive to anyone else. I'm just stating my opinion and view on things.
Oh, also, LT vs MM results would be REALLY nice. Especially with some details on how each combo was launched.
OBVIOUSLY it was me who discovered the combo.
![[Image: IkkiSignature.jpg]](https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/Gigamew/IkkiSignature.jpg)
The correct response to which is: Then you should've tested and made a thread for it. 
and/or "Gary was here, [name] is a loser"
and/or "Gary was here, [name] is a loser"
(May. 18, 2011 1:06 PM)Bluezee Wrote: Thanks a lot th!nk. At least you notice it. Fact is, I barely get time to do anything and I am more than sure that before Dan and I used this, NO ONE bothered to try it because they were stuck in using it as a defense and stamina part. It was more than likely dismissed as an attack part due to the fact that it is so round and sticks out more than most wheels which would give off the idea that it would restrict attack ability. Same thing with Dan's maximum meteor. People were often afraid to use XF due to the fact that it was so fast and uncontrollable and even today, people still have issue with it but it is an amazing combo that exceeds the abilities of every spin attacker available and ever created. The only reason people aren't making the same "can't claim it as your own combo" arguement is because it is hard to use and it is not getting the reception it most definitely deserves.
Actually, FlameDragon25 apparently experimented with MF Lightning L Drago BD145RF sometime near the start of the year, except he never posted about it. All I'm saying is that no one can ever "create" a combo and then make it sound as if it is some complete revolution in how the game is played. You can claim that it is "your" combo since you were the one who popularized it, but you can't claim that it is some sort of miraculous revolutionary discovery that only you could have discovered.
Dan can "claim" MF Meteo L Drago CH120XF as "his" custom, but he can't claim it as something totally new. MF L Drago 100WF preceded it, and Brad's idea to try to create a "destabilizing attacker" in 2009 preceded part of the idea behind MF L Drago 100WF.
There is no originality in Beyblade.
![[Image: beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/VLksgt2k/beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg)
(May. 18, 2011 7:32 PM)Kei Wrote:(May. 18, 2011 1:06 PM)Bluezee Wrote: Thanks a lot th!nk. At least you notice it. Fact is, I barely get time to do anything and I am more than sure that before Dan and I used this, NO ONE bothered to try it because they were stuck in using it as a defense and stamina part. It was more than likely dismissed as an attack part due to the fact that it is so round and sticks out more than most wheels which would give off the idea that it would restrict attack ability. Same thing with Dan's maximum meteor. People were often afraid to use XF due to the fact that it was so fast and uncontrollable and even today, people still have issue with it but it is an amazing combo that exceeds the abilities of every spin attacker available and ever created. The only reason people aren't making the same "can't claim it as your own combo" arguement is because it is hard to use and it is not getting the reception it most definitely deserves.
Actually, FlameDragon25 apparently experimented with MF Lightning L Drago BD145RF sometime near the start of the year, except he never posted about it. All I'm saying is that no one can ever "create" a combo and then make it sound as if it is some complete revolution in how the game is played. You can claim that it is "your" combo since you were the one who popularized it, but you can't claim that it is some sort of miraculous revolutionary discovery that only you could have discovered.
Dan can "claim" MF Meteo L Drago CH120XF as "his" custom, but he can't claim it as something totally new. MF L Drago 100WF preceded it, and Brad's idea to try to create a "destabilizing attacker" in 2009 preceded part of the idea behind MF L Drago 100WF.
There is no originality in Beyblade.
So if he supposedly tried it, what went wrong when he used it? Apparently he wasn't doing something right to not find it necessary to be posted and popularized. On top of that, RF and LRF are two VERY different parts in terms of performance.
As far as Dan, there may have been things before it but NOTHING compares to it in terms of what it is supposed to do. Secondly, the combo was not made to destabilize. It was made to steal spin yet it happens to destabilize due to the fact that it is in the opposite direction and kills beys taller than it which pretty much any beyblade can do if it is shorter than the opponent.
So to say the least, it may not be "totally" new but it is new, he did discover/popularize it, it exceeds all that came before it, it is the best at what it does and it works. The same goes for LT.
I completely understand what you are saying and it makes sense. However, it's just not right for someone to try and come and say, "oh you may have done this and it may be the best but I had this before" when they don't even compare in terms of performance.
It sounds a lot like you are concerned with being recognized.
(May. 18, 2011 7:43 PM)Bluezee Wrote: So if he supposedly tried it, what went wrong when he used it? Apparently he wasn't doing something right to not find it necessary to be posted and popularized. On top of that, RF and LRF are two VERY different parts in terms of performance.
As far as Dan, there may have been things before it but NOTHING compares to it in terms of what it is supposed to do. Secondly, the combo was not made to destabilize. It was made to steal spin yet it happens to destabilize due to the fact that it is in the opposite direction and kills beys taller than it which pretty much any beyblade can do if it is shorter than the opponent.
So to say the least, it may not be "totally" new but it is new, he did discover/popularize it, it exceeds all that came before it, it is the best at what it does and it works. The same goes for LT.
I completely understand what you are saying and it makes sense. However, it's just not right for someone to try and come and say, "oh you may have done this and it may be the best but I had this before" when they don't even compare in terms of performance.
I never made any comment about how good or bad it performed for him. He just didn't post about it, likely because he doesn't post a lot on here anyways. They're different, but essentially they are the same.
I never said Dan's combo was trying to achieve the exact same thing as the combos that preceded it. All I am trying to say is that it, and everything else in Beyblade, is derivative of something else in the past.
Of course, it is "new" in a sense, I'm not denying that. It's an evolution, not a revolution, so of course it should be the "best at what it does", or else it would not have been considered an "evolution".
EDIT:
(May. 18, 2011 7:49 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: It sounds a lot like you are concerned with being recognized.
Seems that way.
Look, I suppose I can give the evolution not revolution thing a chance, it's probably true. However, it IS a bit more of a leap than people are making it out to be. Not a revolution, but a sizeable leap, maybe.
I don't think it's wrong to be a little concerned about being recognised, though tbh, I think most people DO recognise Bluezee as the creator. I also think we've gone a way off topic here (myself included), and we're getting towards an argument about Bluezee. Again. This is a forum about beyblades, in a thread about a beyblade combo that happens to be popularised by Bluezee. This is not a forum for discussing our opinions of Bluezee.
At the very least, this didn't start with Bluezee claiming "YOU SHOULD WORSHIP ME".
Any argument that refers to the "Fall of the Metagame" thing has been discussed before, so don't start.
If we want to discuss the credit "creators" of new/slightly unusual combos deserve, I suggest we create a separate thread and discuss it THERE. Not in a thread about a specific combo.
I don't think it's wrong to be a little concerned about being recognised, though tbh, I think most people DO recognise Bluezee as the creator. I also think we've gone a way off topic here (myself included), and we're getting towards an argument about Bluezee. Again. This is a forum about beyblades, in a thread about a beyblade combo that happens to be popularised by Bluezee. This is not a forum for discussing our opinions of Bluezee.
At the very least, this didn't start with Bluezee claiming "YOU SHOULD WORSHIP ME".
Any argument that refers to the "Fall of the Metagame" thing has been discussed before, so don't start.
If we want to discuss the credit "creators" of new/slightly unusual combos deserve, I suggest we create a separate thread and discuss it THERE. Not in a thread about a specific combo.
(May. 18, 2011 7:49 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: It sounds a lot like you are concerned with being recognized.
I would not say that. I am more on the side of being acknowledged for the time spent making this what it is today. All that testing Dan and I did was not to be dismissed. If that was going to happen, we would have just kept it to ourselves. As th!nk said, testing is generally unappreciated lately and that is absolutely unacceptable.
Also, as think said, this isn't a thread about personal opinions on me. Personally, I could care less. Lately though, it seems everywhere I post, there is someone who feels the need to take what I am saying personal and start directing personal attacks towards me yet they never take the time to PM me and say any of this. They just choose to make a scene and it makes them look ridiculous when I don't respond. I just tell things like it is and it may come off as blunt but 9/10 times, people don't seem to get it any other way.
I am in no way saying, "look up to me for I am the best". I just know where I stand and where credit is due and others see it as well.
As for the revolution aspect, think of this. Before LT and MM came out, what was stopping Basalt 230CS consistently? Nothing. What was the metagame based around besides 230 combos or stamina spam? Nothing. What did the attack metagame have that could stop these things with a consistent win rate and rid the game of constant mirror matching and the same combos winning? NOTHING. So when these combos came about, they did in fact start a revolution for the game, especially for the attacking aspect. Attack was undeniably dying and that fact can not be ignored or denied. So evolution, sure. Revolution? In more ways than not, absolutely.
BD145 stamina combos were stopping Basalt 230CS consistently. And I don't think MM is all that good. I can beat it with a whole bunch of stuff, AND I was experimenting with it way before Dan made that thread.
(May. 18, 2011 8:55 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: BD145 stamina combos were stopping Basalt 230CS consistently. And I don't think MM is all that good. I can beat it with a whole bunch of stuff, AND I was experimenting with it way before Dan made that thread.
Ok maybe you didn't interpret what I posted the way I intended. I did say "what was dominating besides 230 and stamina spam" so that would mean that stamina was more or less defeating it or on equal terms but maybe you didn't get that impression so let me rephrase one of those questions:
What was stopping Basalt 230CS besides stamina types which ended up causing stamina spam all over tournaments?
Also, I have yet to see and BD145 based stamina combo beat Basalt 230 with the win rate LT or MM has against it or any combo for that matter.
As for MM, what are you using against it? Keep in mind that MM has issues against most attackers so if you are just using them, that's not really showing too much.
1. You do want to be regonized, your post are somewhat like a "plz regonize me". Trust me I read you everyday.
2. Maybe Cye doesnt want to reveal combo? Ever thought about that?
3. You can be blunt sometimes
4. Its an evolution not revolution. Get a dictionary please. I agree with Cye and Kei. Its just like MF LLDCh120RF. Which people probably has been using maybe over at Italy? Ever thought about that? And yes i read italian sections with my google translitorator. (idk how to spell =p). Plus Italy doesnt really "stamina spam" its an mix of types of the metagame. Thought about that too?
5. Not going against you at all just saying my thoughts.
2. Maybe Cye doesnt want to reveal combo? Ever thought about that?
3. You can be blunt sometimes
4. Its an evolution not revolution. Get a dictionary please. I agree with Cye and Kei. Its just like MF LLDCh120RF. Which people probably has been using maybe over at Italy? Ever thought about that? And yes i read italian sections with my google translitorator. (idk how to spell =p). Plus Italy doesnt really "stamina spam" its an mix of types of the metagame. Thought about that too?
5. Not going against you at all just saying my thoughts.
(May. 18, 2011 9:23 PM)® Wrote: 1. You do want to be regonized, your post are somewhat like a "plz regonize me". Trust me I read you everyday.
2. Maybe Cye doesnt want to reveal combo? Ever thought about that?
3. You can be blunt sometimes
4. Its an evolution not revolution. Get a dictionary please. I agree with Cye and Kei. Its just like MF LLDCh120RF. Which people probably has been using maybe over at Italy? Ever thought about that? And yes i read italian sections with my google translitorator. (idk how to spell =p). Plus Italy doesnt really "stamina spam" its an mix of types of the metagame. Thought about that too?
5. Not going against you at all just saying my thoughts.
If you only knew how ridiculous you sound.....I am honestly sitting here laughing at you and I would point out every tiny thing you posted but I am just going to simply shut you out with a few things based on observation of what you posted:
1. You obviously DO NOT read because I specifically said I AM blunt with the things I say now. Yet you read everyday?
2. When you can read, go find me where I said anything even remotely close to "please recognize me" or even anything that comes off as that way. I would love to see where my begging for attention shows up lol
3. I clearly expressed how it was a revolution. Did you bother to read that or were you spending more time on how to try to bandwagon off of someone else's success or ideas like you do with Otsu? Yes, it is that obvious.
4. Lastly, WHY WOULDN'T THE ITALIANS USE AN ATTACK COMBO LIKE LLDCH120RF? They primarily use attack beys over there! And even now, they suffer from Basalt 230CS unless they use LT! Nothing over there has a higher win rate. You ever think of that since you claim to use your handy-dandy google translator which is often inaccurate?
Also, what does Cye not releasing something have to do with any of this? You say you aren't going against me yet the 4/5 things you stated were all things trying to make me seem like I don't know what I am talking about. Apparently you aren't siding with me so you must be against me correct? Pick a side. You are indeed making personal attacks which is EXACTLY what we just talked about no more than a page ago. So yeah, read please.
(May. 18, 2011 9:39 PM)Bluezee Wrote:(May. 18, 2011 9:23 PM)® Wrote: 1. You do want to be regonized, your post are somewhat like a "plz regonize me". Trust me I read you everyday.
2. Maybe Cye doesnt want to reveal combo? Ever thought about that?
3. You can be blunt sometimes
4. Its an evolution not revolution. Get a dictionary please. I agree with Cye and Kei. Its just like MF LLDCh120RF. Which people probably has been using maybe over at Italy? Ever thought about that? And yes i read italian sections with my google translitorator. (idk how to spell =p). Plus Italy doesnt really "stamina spam" its an mix of types of the metagame. Thought about that too?
5. Not going against you at all just saying my thoughts.
If you only knew how ridiculous you sound.....I am honestly sitting here laughing at you and I would point out every tiny thing you posted but I am just going to simply shut you out with a few things based on observation of what you posted:
1. You obviously DO NOT read because I specifically said I AM blunt with the things I say now. Yet you read everyday?
2. When you can read, go find me where I said anything even remotely close to "please recognize me" or even anything that comes off as that way. I would love to see where my begging for attention shows up lol
3. I clearly expressed how it was a revolution. Did you bother to read that or were you spending more time on how to try to bandwagon off of someone else's success or ideas like you do with Otsu? Yes, it is that obvious.
4. Lastly, WHY WOULDN'T THE ITALIANS USE AN ATTACK COMBO LIKE LLDCH120RF? They primarily use attack beys over there! And even now, they suffer from Basalt 230CS unless they use LT! Nothing over there has a higher win rate. You ever think of that since you claim to use your handy-dandy google translator which is often inaccurate?
Also, what does Cye not releasing something have to do with any of this? You say you aren't going against me yet the 4/5 things you stated were all things trying to make me seem like I don't know what I am talking about. Apparently you aren't siding with me so you must be against me correct? Pick a side. You are indeed making personal attacks which is EXACTLY what we just talked about no more than a page ago. So yeah, read please.
chill out guys no need to yell at each other we know lightning tank is good combo and others this thread is turning into a yell at people thread let's just calm down i know your expressing your opinions and choose to counter each other but let's just discuss the tank more is LRF a requiremeaant for this combo or can other tips be used
LRF definitely brings out this combo's maximum performance. Other tips can be used but they definitely will not do as well.
Weirdly, not even R2F (same surface area) brings out the potential in this combo, you really must follow correct steps to master the LRF, taken from Bluezee to maximise the combo (LRF wearness = massive performance difference).
1. Make sure the LRF is broken in and soft to create maximum heat and speed.
2. Make sure you do not just pull acceptably, it must be 100% complete strength, the technique is somewhat lost but is madeup for.
3. Different pulls can change the bey from "atk" to "defence" by varying the pull power and angle/technique. A flat push launch at 80% if done well can make the LRF stall somewhat, it will do this if made heavy impact with opposing bey. This means the LRF can act defensively, plastic contact and both in the same direction of spin results in the now defensive Lightning Tank beat the regular attacking Lightning Tank.
This means Lightning Tank has great versatility depending on launch.
1. Make sure the LRF is broken in and soft to create maximum heat and speed.
2. Make sure you do not just pull acceptably, it must be 100% complete strength, the technique is somewhat lost but is madeup for.
3. Different pulls can change the bey from "atk" to "defence" by varying the pull power and angle/technique. A flat push launch at 80% if done well can make the LRF stall somewhat, it will do this if made heavy impact with opposing bey. This means the LRF can act defensively, plastic contact and both in the same direction of spin results in the now defensive Lightning Tank beat the regular attacking Lightning Tank.
This means Lightning Tank has great versatility depending on launch.
Spoiler (Click to View)
![[Image: sskullsig.png]](https://img802.imageshack.us/img802/4783/sskullsig.png)
(May. 18, 2011 10:01 PM)Bluezee Wrote: LRF definitely brings out this combo's maximum performance. Other tips can be used but they definitely will not do as well.Actually, with something like this, the choice depends on the skill of the player. This combo can still get a KO late in the match if it failed to knock out the other combo initially. A lot of players don't have a good enough shot to KO the opponent early every time. In that case, RF would be preferred because it provides a bit more stamina, or R2F because it provides a bit more control.
Also, I don't agree with people who say things like this provide good defense. Ideas like this weren't around back in the day. It's a flat, rubber tip. It's aggressive. It isn't defensive at all. Your skill will not make it defensive.
Thank you for posting that ControL_. I was really about to copy and paste the whole youtube response just so people would understand it. I think I still might but you covered it. Thanks again.
But RF will not aid the combo as much as LRF in terms of spin-stealing which can more times than most, ensure a win or tie on LT's behalf. Also, by LRF helping it steal more spin throughout the match, the last minute KO ability is maximized rather than having it subpar with RF. The purpose of it being a tank is how it runs through combos with speed and power. If that speed is decreased, it is no longer the same combo.
Also, it is in fact VERY defensive. Majority, if not all attackers, fall to this combo's defensive abilities if LT is launched at a lower spin rate. The rubber provides the grip it needs to stay in and BD145 absorbs the opponent's hits, making it defensive even when it barely has enough spin left to get out of the middle of the stadium.
(May. 18, 2011 10:16 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote:(May. 18, 2011 10:01 PM)Bluezee Wrote: LRF definitely brings out this combo's maximum performance. Other tips can be used but they definitely will not do as well.Actually, with something like this, the choice depends on the skill of the player. This combo can still get a KO late in the match if it failed to knock out the other combo initially. A lot of players don't have a good enough shot to KO the opponent early every time. In that case, RF would be preferred because it provides a bit more stamina, or R2F because it provides a bit more control.
But RF will not aid the combo as much as LRF in terms of spin-stealing which can more times than most, ensure a win or tie on LT's behalf. Also, by LRF helping it steal more spin throughout the match, the last minute KO ability is maximized rather than having it subpar with RF. The purpose of it being a tank is how it runs through combos with speed and power. If that speed is decreased, it is no longer the same combo.
Also, it is in fact VERY defensive. Majority, if not all attackers, fall to this combo's defensive abilities if LT is launched at a lower spin rate. The rubber provides the grip it needs to stay in and BD145 absorbs the opponent's hits, making it defensive even when it barely has enough spin left to get out of the middle of the stadium.
This isn't an effective spin stealer at all... How does LRF help it to steal spin? That's not how that works at all.
Also, nothing you said made anything I said wrong. Obviously, if you switch the bottom it's not the same combo. What I said about choosing a bottom for this beyblade still stands.
Also, nothing you said made anything I said wrong. Obviously, if you switch the bottom it's not the same combo. What I said about choosing a bottom for this beyblade still stands.
(May. 18, 2011 10:26 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: This isn't an effective spin stealer at all... How does LRF help it to steal spin? That's not how that works at all.
Also, nothing you said made anything I said wrong. Obviously, if you switch the bottom it's not the same combo. What I said about choosing a bottom for this beyblade still stands.
I would be glad to show you what I mean personally considering I could show you much better than I could tell you. Better yet, give me any combo that you think this can not steal spin effectively from and I will show you in a video unedited? Agreed?
Sure, but you still haven't addressed how LRF helps spin stealing.