first advanced post ye

I am in full support of 230 for stamina. It's shape is super conducive for stamina, the results are still solid, and it can go toe-to-toe if not beat TH195.

Aquario, like so many others have said, doesn't make the cut any more. Definitely take it down, I'm personally a fan of Cygnus and Hades on my Phantom/Duo combos.

E230RS lmao, recipe for bad times. I even quickly checked it out just to back up my results, it falls over so fast that it practically flips. RS has decent stamina, but nothing incredible. It starts wobbling incredibly early, and RS needs a track that would support it. Combos like LTDCs appreciate the defense from RS much more, because they can handle the drawbacks that are associated with it.

Seeing how Duo SA165EWD is noted for its ability against left-spin, I'd say Death is a viable option to maximize its potential then. When I next buy some beys I'm picking up SA165 and BWD so I'll definitely try to get some tests and post them here or in another thread.

Regarding Basalt, I have a soft spot for it for obvious reasons. Besides, it smashes Flash to hell and back with great success. I would like to see tests against Synchroms, mainly because my aggressive Chrome Wheels are Phoenic, Bahamdia, Ifraid, Gryph, Pegasis and Dragooon (ie. not Wyvang/Balro).

I'll try to put up some official results regarding E230RS tomorrow, if not today.

---

"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

I say keep 230 on for stamina. I was never a fan of th170 for stamina. It just seemed so shaky once you put it on the 195 height. |

It was mentioned in the public discussion thread, but how do you feel about taking Aquario off the list? Now that we have cygnus & cancer, no one uses Aquario. I say we make a call and remove it.

RS on E230 is bad. It loses balance, you lose. Simple as that. That is talking from tournament experience.

Id like to see BWD for stamina. Blitz did some very good testing for it back in the day. I say it should at the least be looked into.

Duo SA165 BWD/EWD needs to be on the list. Its a decent stamina setup and can counter most left spin combos. It had a great showing at Beyblade REVOLUTION. *cough* Valentin!!

Dark, I think your TH170 must be loose, because neither of mine shake on 195 (even the one I've put through hell, haha!).

Aquario can go, yeah. It's still good for defense though IMO, like I mentioned before/elsewhere.

RS can be taken off of E230, sure. I'm still a sucker for it, but RSF is likely strictly better :\

I've actually been wondering about BWD a lot lately. I remember being horribly unimpressed by its performance in informal testing, but like you pointed out it got some decent results in offical tests. It should be looked into, that I definitely agree with.

Duo SA165EWD should go up, sure, but I'm really unsure about BWD on that custom... BWD is so pointy, and putting it on a tall track won't do it any favors in a spin-steal battle.

I like the list, but you should definitely add MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF. That custom oozes competitiveness.

Seeing how Duo SA165EWD is noted for its ability against left-spin, I'd say Death is a viable option to maximize its potential then. When I next buy some beys I'm picking up SA165 and BWD so I'll definitely try to get some tests and post them here or in another thread.

Regarding Basalt, I have a soft spot for it for obvious reasons. Besides, it smashes Flash to hell and back with great success. I would like to see tests against Synchroms, mainly because my aggressive Chrome Wheels are Phoenic, Bahamdia, Ifraid, Gryph, Pegasis and Dragooon (ie. not Wyvang/Balro).

I'll try to put up some official results regarding E230RS tomorrow, if not today.

I totally agree with the idea of using Death on that custom; it makes sense and probably works, though it obviously needs testing before we can say if it'd up there with Duo.

I love me some Basalt too, but it's so undeniably (and so ironically) lightweight in today's Synchrom meta. It's probably still heavy enough for some custom to do well, but most of the things it was good at have been matched or outclassed by customs packing an extra 13g in their metal wheel.

Looking forward to the tests

---

A Beyblade Testing App for Android
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
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My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

Dark, I think your TH170 must be loose, because neither of mine shake on 195 (even the one I've put through hell, haha!).

It was someone else TH170. TH170 can go for Stamina, but we need to keep 230.

Aquario can go, yeah. It's still good for defense though IMO, like I mentioned before/elsewhere.

RS can be taken off of E230, sure. I'm still a sucker for it, but RSF is likely strictly better :\

I hate taking aquario off. But its has to go.

]
I've actually been wondering about BWD a lot lately. I remember being horribly unimpressed by its performance in informal testing, but like you pointed out it got some decent results in offical tests. It should be looked into, that I definitely agree with.

Ive had some good results with it in tournaments recently. It had a decent showing at an NC event today.

Duo SA165EWD should go up, sure, but I'm really unsure about BWD on that custom... BWD is so pointy, and putting it on a tall track won't do it any favors in a spin-steal battle.

I like the list, but you should definitely add MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF. That custom oozes competitiveness.

Totally forgot about that. Adding now.

Seeing how Duo SA165EWD is noted for its ability against left-spin, I'd say Death is a viable option to maximize its potential then. When I next buy some beys I'm picking up SA165 and BWD so I'll definitely try to get some tests and post them here or in another thread.

Would putting death on the list just for one use really have a point? I mean yes its good for anti-spin steal. But does one use justify it being on the list?

---

Does anyone else feel that Diablo doesn't belong on the list anymore?

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I actually am a fan of E230RB, though RSF seems to do quite well also. RB is just an excellent, excellent tip, and I really feel like it's underestimated because of the prevalence of RDF and the new resurgence of RSF.

I perfectly agree with your statements: Basalt is undeniably light. The only thing is that no one has been able to test for its performance against synchroms. I would do it myself, but I can't. Diablo became pretty much anti-attack 2.0 haha, but it's always nice to have options.

I'll try and get these tests up tonight.

EDIT: Dark I see no reason why not. If Death can do something better than Duo, then keep it with a note about left-spin. Defeating every left-spin combo with ease isn't exactly niche, since Dragooon is a dominant part in the meta.

As for Diablo, it still gets the numbers against attack types. I think it can stay on the list still, and weight isn't too much of a problem for Diablo.

---

"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

I actually am a fan of E230RB, though RSF seems to do quite well also. RB is just an excellent, excellent tip, and I really feel like it's underestimated because of the prevalence of RDF and the new resurgence of RSF.

I always loved RB. Glad to see someone else agrees with me. RB has been underestimated for a long time.

EDIT: Dark I see no reason why not. If Death can do something better than Duo, then keep it with a note about left-spin. Defeating every left-spin combo with ease isn't exactly niche, since Dragooon is a dominant part in the meta.

I do see your point here. Just putting a combo on the list to take down a particular combo never set really good with me. But I can agree to it after seeing how bad the Dragooon is in the BB10 meta. (Nothing but Dragooon at today's event)

As for Diablo, it still gets the numbers against attack types. I think it can stay on the list still, and weight isn't too much of a problem for Diablo.

Ive never been a fan of Diablo personally. I just feel now there is better things to use then Diablo in the BB format.

Also when we put F230 in the tier list we need to make sure we note the Orange F230.

---

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Alright, so here are some tests.

MF-H Flash Escolpio GB145R2F vs. MF-H Duo Cygnus E230RS (Boost Mode)
Sliding Shoot used, BB-10, BB-121 Beylauncher LR with Launcher Rubber
Duo launched first
Flash: 7/20 (7 KOs)
Duo: 13/20 (6 OSs, 7 KOs)

I can see why this was considered a possibility for the list. My Flash is worn, so that might have played a part in the low results. E230's grinding ability was invaluable for the OSs, but at the same time it was losing balance fast. Several times it would get hit under the disk and be sent flying out entirely. The number of KOs that occurred for Duo was so high, I suspect, due to the state of my Flash. The OS battles were actually rather close because Flash would occasionally hit under the disk and destabilize the bey, which led to a waiting game. Duo would win because it would grind down Flash's stamina and Duo, as we know, has incredible balance. However, it was a little too close for comfort, and the same might not be said for synchrom combos against Wyvang^2.

Regardless, E230RS has incredible defense and grinding capability, but relatively poor stamina and very bad balance. Since Duo is such a balanced wheel, E230RS is getting the benefit of the doubt here.

In comparison...

MF-H Flash Escolpio GB145R2F vs. MF-H Duo Cygnus E230RB (Boost Mode)
Sliding Shoot used, Same equipment
Duo launched first
Flash: 4/20 (4 KOs)
Duo: 16/20 (8 OSs, 8 KOs)

Again, results are skewed slightly due to wear of the Flash. Regardless, the battles were noticeably better here. Duo would have plenty of stamina to spare and the grinding effect still occurred. RB's semi-aggressive movement pattern gave Duo a huge advantage. Duo would hit Flash before it could start executing a flower pattern, and Flash would loose control and throw itself out. Additionally, Duo was able to avoid attacks from Flash due to RB's movement, and when it was hit the grinding effect of E230 and defense of RB was more than enough to usually repel Flash. The Flash KOs occurred when Duo edged too close to the TR and Flash smashed it over and out.

I can see why RS is usable, however I still stand by my claims of RB, RSF and RDF being far superior choices in this case. Balance is critical with synchrom as well, and the extra defense can be traded for the ability to keep spinning when your opponent is low on stamina rather than being in danger of destabilization and falling over.

Damn I need a new stock of RS and R2F haha.

---

"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

Haven't read everything, but a few responses:
@Ga: You mentioned TH195 against 230. 220 is the height to use against 230, generally. Forgetting that and using 195 instead was the cause of one of my losses, haha.
Strongly against cutting off TH170, though, versatility from knowing the height matchups makes it very useful.

Aight, I doubt there's much RS is going to OS that RB won't, so not too fussed about dropping it off e230.

Not sure if heavier weights make all the difference but having used RSF and CS a lot playing around with older stuff, RSF isn't really significantly better defensively, and is more of a liability against opposite spin and has significantly poorer stamina. Again, perhaps newer parts such as E230 make the difference, but I'm not sure how they would make RSF significantly better than CS, seeing as height never seemed to do that. Generally speaking I'm still unsure whether us taking CS off was/still is the right decision, but whatever.

I've never seen my Death do anything much that my Duo can't, but whatever.

As for removing diablo, I think Kei would disagree, going off memory. I'm surprised that it hasn't been supplanted by a Zero G setup, though, especially with what I've heard of wyvang.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

My argument is more of a 'Save 230', rather than a 'Take Down TH170', so I agree with what you're saying.

RSF has been seeing use because of its semi-aggressive movement pattern, but CS might be able to do the trick as well. I'll look into that, maybe some tests by the end of the week.

EDIT: Ah, just saw what you said. I did not mean '230 is better than TH170' as in a battle between TH170 and 230, where 220 would be most preferable. I meant as in a stamina comparison, where TH195 is the most preferred height of TH170 for stamina combos.

---

"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

Personally I always liked CS for defense. It was my second go to tip outside RDF. I never understood completely why it was taken off to begin with.

---

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Ive updated my list again. Made a few small tweaks to it. Everyone okay with this list?

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Ingulit and I have talked about this a bit, I feel CS should be removed from Genbull BD145. The recoil on Genbull BD145 is noticeably greater on CS that I wouldn't even consider it top tier Defense; however, it is one of the best pure Defense setups on RDF/RB/RS.

I am on the same boat with the 230 vs TH170 deal: keep both.

Aquario should stay up for Duo Defense and Bull should be taken down. Aquario and Bull are essentially the same weight and Aquario has much less recoil than Bull. I would personally pick Aquario over any other clear wheel on Duo Defense because it is exposed.

---

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Here is an updated list I made with help from the Public Discussion. Thoughts? I like this a lot. It should be good enough to update the official list.

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Attack

Wyvang

1. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)
2. Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Zero-G attack mode) (R2F/RF/LRF)


Balro

1. Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)


Flash

1. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)
2. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) W145MF


Defense

Duo

1. MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)

Reviser/Killerken

1. MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Revizer/Killerken BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
2. MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)


Genbull

1. MSF-H Genbull/Revizer Genbull BD145/E230 (RDF/RB/RSF)
Stamina

Duo

1. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)
4. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SR200TB
5. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160PD
6. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165 EWD/BWD


Genbull

1. Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
2. Genbull Genbull TH170TB

Phantom

1. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)

Dragooon

1. (MSF-H) Reviser/Genbull/Killerken Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) EWD/BWD


Balance

1. MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF

2. MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF

3. (MF-H/MF-M) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus) 230MB

4. MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF

5. MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF

6. Reviser Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) RDF

7. MF-M Duo/Death Cancer/Cygnus F230(Orange) CF/GCF

8. MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230(Orange) CF/GCF

9. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF

10. MSF-H Girago Girago BD145 RF

11. Genbull Genbull F230GCF

12. Genbull Dragooon T125GCF

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I like it, but good gravy that is one crowded Balance list! I say we should push that list and then make a project out of seeing if we can subcategorize that at all. I know there has been some hesitation toward more detailed categories before, but I don't think the Balance list has ever been quite this extensive.

EDIT: Wait, one problem: I still really disagree with BWD on SA165, ESPECIALLY on the Dragooon combo. BWD is way too pointy to stay upright even remotely as long as EWD before toppling over. I'm going to do some tests when I get home to see if I missed something, because I just cannot see that being competitive at all.

---

A Beyblade Testing App for Android
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

Looking at it myself, I concur: the Balance list is huge. While we all know these are balance combos, I think it would be most beneficial to identify exactly what attributes these beyblades are a competitive balance of.

---

"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

You'll want to fix the spellings of Reviser (you used a z for a couple) and combine TH170 (D/SD) and 230 (D/SD) together as they use the same tip range.

As for the balance combos, I have no qualms about the list being long (frankly it makes me kinda excited/interested in playing more), but if we could make each combo a link to its testing thread, that would be perfect IMO.

Also why is CS on Genbull Genbull SR200 for stamina? That strikes me as an odd choice, tall height plus Rubber edged tip should do bad bad things for survival.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

As for the balance combos, I have no qualms about the list being long (frankly it makes me kinda excited/interested in playing more), but if we could make each combo a link to its testing thread, that would be perfect IMO.

Also why is CS on Genbull Genbull SR200 for stamina? That strikes me as an odd choice, tall height plus Rubber edged tip should do bad bad things for survival.

Don't get me wrong; I LOVE that there are so many Balance combos! I'm not proposing we remove any of them, but rather implement subcategories simply to improve the readability of the list. At the very least, we should put similar Balance customs next to each other (IE, put each Anti-Attacker next to one another, etc.).

Links would definitely be a plus, definitely.

I'm gonna speak for KainHighwind here, since he was the one who did those tests: CS actually proved comparable to TB on that specific Genbull Genbull setup, providing both great stamina and a degree of defense. It definitely looks weird, I'll agree, but the test results (see his thread) indicate that it actually works. IIRC I think it was his favorite stamina setup, but don't quote me on that.

---

A Beyblade Testing App for Android
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
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My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

I am in full support of 230 for stamina. It's shape is super conducive for stamina, the results are still solid, and it can go toe-to-toe if not beat TH195.

The point wasn't to remove 230 for all Stamina combos, but to remove it for Phantom. The recoil of Phantom + the height of 230 + a Stamina Bottom is not a positive mix.

Seeing how Duo SA165EWD is noted for its ability against left-spin, I'd say Death is a viable option to maximize its potential then. When I next buy some beys I'm picking up SA165 and BWD so I'll definitely try to get some tests and post them here or in another thread.

Death might not be bad for that purpose, but I don't see the point in using it if it performs poorly against right-spin.

Regarding Basalt, I have a soft spot for it for obvious reasons. Besides, it smashes Flash to hell and back with great success. I would like to see tests against Synchroms, mainly because my aggressive Chrome Wheels are Phoenic, Bahamdia, Ifraid, Gryph, Pegasis and Dragooon (ie. not Wyvang/Balro).

Basalt is definitely still usable–which is only a testament to how great it once was–but I think that the weight difference is too much for it to overcome against many of the currently competitive combos. It would be fun to see some tests against Synchroms though, I agree.

Does anyone else feel that Diablo doesn't belong on the list anymore?

Diablo has been overshadowed by other things lately, but it's still an outstanding Attack Wheel. Weight isn't really a problem for it either. There's a reason why I said this last year:

Diablo is the best overall Wheel in the game right now, hands down.

That might not be true anymore, but as you should know from our first battle at BEYBLADE REVOLUTION: The Insurgents, that Diablo still has no problem KOing Synchrom Defenders in the hands of a skilled user.

Here is an updated list I made with help from the Public Discussion. Thoughts? I like this a lot. It should be good enough to update the official list.

Here's my update:

Updated Competitive MFB Combos List (Click to View)

Attack

Wyvang

1. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)
2. Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Zero-G attack mode) (R2F/RF/LRF)


Balro

1. Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)


Flash

1. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)
2. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) W145MF


Defense

Duo

1. MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)

Reviser/Killerken

1. MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Revizer/Killerken BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
2. MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/CS/RB)


Genbull

1. MSF-H Genbull/Revizer Genbull BD145/E230 (RDF/RB/RSF)

Stamina

Duo

1. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)
4. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SR200TB
5. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160PD
6. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165 EWD/BWD


Genbull

1. Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
2. Genbull Genbull TH170TB

Phantom

1. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)

Dragooon

1. (MSF-H) Reviser/Genbull/Killerken Dragooon SA165 (Normal Mode) EWD/BWD


Balance
1. MF-H/MF-M Duo (Cancer/Cygnus) 230MB

2. MF-M Duo/Death Cancer/Cygnus F230(Orange) CF/GCF

3. MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230 (Orange) CF/GCF

4. MSF-M Genbull Genbull F230 (Orange) CF/GCF

5. Genbull Dragooon T125GCF

6. MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF

7. MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF

8. MSF-H Girago Girago BD145 RF

9. MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF

10. Reviser/Killerken Dragooon SA165 (Normal Mode) RDF

11. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF

Removed:
- E230 + RS: I still can't wrap my head around this one. Yes, it has great Defense, but the poor Balance is just too glaring of an issue for it to be ignored. We have enough alternatives that I don't feel it is necessary to list RS. RS does indeed deserve a spot with E230 if you consider its Defense alone, but to ignore it's drawbacks would be ignorant. You have to consider what you're sacrificing for that defensive power. I agree with what Ga'Hooleone said:

Balance is critical with synchrom as well, and the extra defense can be traded for the ability to keep spinning when your opponent is low on stamina rather than being in danger of destabilization and falling over.

- Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD): For reasons previously stated. Honestly, I might even remove Phantom all together. The recoil it has bothers me so much. What do you guys think? I'm pretty sure it's been a while since anybody has actually won with it, too. It's all Duo, Dragooon, Genbull, Killerken, etc. in the current metagame.
- MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF: Cool concept, but I'm just not buying this one right now. Dragooon is too prevalent, it hasn't been tested against SA165EWD, F230CF/GCF, etc.


Added:
- Added MSF-M and CF and also specified that the F230 on Genbull Genbull F230GCF needs to be Orange.
- Added Killerken to Reviser Dragooon SA165 (Normal Mode) RDF

Also, I grouped the similar combos in the Balance section together (BD145RF combos, F230 combos, etc.)

I noticed Scythe 85RS wasn't listed anymore. Any particular reason? I wasn't necessarily a huge proponent of it, but I did understand why it was being considered. Just wondering.

Anyways, I'm going to go ahead and post this list as it stands right now. We can continue to debate, but what we've got here is obviously better than what's listed right now!

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Phantom staying up there really depends how it does against balance and defense, I think. If a significant number of the non-RF balance customs can KO it then it might be time for it to go. Still have my reservations about removing 230 because it being there at all is really a regional thing but whatevs. It should also probably be looked at on lower tracks in case any of them offer sufficient protection.

I guess the testing doesn't back it up or it'd be on there but I would also suggest SA165EWD be added to phantom just because it is such a well distributed part. I guess perhaps with newer stuff or maybe the height messes it up but I've only got good things out of it from what I've tried. I love SA165EWD in general though, it's such a great setup with Dragooon running amok.

I guess I can acquiesce on Gryph Gryph E230BSF but I'd like to encourage anyone reading this who is able to make testing it against the combos Kei stated a major priority.

I'm going to reiterate my suggestion of MF-M as an option on Duo Stamina, based on my previous posts and experimentation I find it greatly helps against Dragooon spin stealers. I am afraid I don't have time for full tests, though I did post some justification earlier. If anyone reading this wants to give it a shot, it's most noticeable in close matchups. I would also suggest trying MSF-M on Dragooon Spin Steal Combos for the same reason (there was a specific matchup I wanted between MSF-M Dragooon and MF-M Duo but I can't remember the tracks/tips).

I stated my own reasons earlier for feeling Scythe didn't belong up there, however if Defense seriously struggles with Synchrome Attack then I think it deserves a spot. Haven't got time to check the testing myself though. That said I'd say the same for E230RS in that case as long as it could outspin it.

I honestly find it a little odd that as weight has increased RS has become less viable, I guess it's all down to balance and RDF/RB but nonetheless, it was largely the weight of MFB that made that tip shape at all viable (in fact so viable that it tore away most of the attack list at the time, which only becomes worse when later discoveries like LTDC are applied to that pre-BD145 etc time period). I guess recoil and power play a big part in it too, though, as well as big plastic disks and to a lesser extent the more versatile but similarly low-stamina high-defense Anti-Attack largely supplanting it in its only real role. Just musing to myself here though.
I'd actually try it out myself if I could make a decent defensive synchrome, but right now I'm stuck with Revizer and Saramanda and the balance of those two together is just wow.

Also a quick correction:

Basalt is definitely still usable–which is only a testament to how greatridiculously broken it once was–but I think that the weight difference is too much for it to overcome against many of the currently competitive combos. It would be fun to see some tests against Synchroms though, I agree.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

BWD absolutely should not be on the list for Reviser Dragooon SA165___, or any SA165 custom for that matter. It's especially bad on Dragooon, seeing as the fact that it topples extremely quickly kind of ruins the whole point of the combo. The only tip that I can see being considered instead of EWD is W2D, and even that isn't that great. BWD isn't even remotely viable, and I'm baffled as to why it was put on any list in the first place.

I'm still a proponent of Scythe 85RS, and I don't totally agree with it having been taken off recent lists. It is unbelievably solid against (right-spin) Synchroms attackers and the majority of Flash setups, such that if one is looking for a pure defense custom, it is easily one of the best picks IMO. The fact that it pulls almost perfect results against customs that KO Reviser Reviser BD145RDF 80% of the time shouldn't be overlooked.

I like the list a lot other than those things (if I notice anything else I'll mention it).

I'm fine with seeing E230RS being taken off considering other tips are likely strictly better in most respects.

I am going to be testing MSF-? Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F against F230(CF/GCF), and if it does as well as I expect it to I'm going to be making a case for it being listed since F230 is apparently plaguing metagames right now.

I would hate to see Phantom go, but it is true that Duo is (with good reason) the go-to stamina wheel anymore. Phantom's recoil really does pose a threat against the wealth of sudo-aggressive Synchroms out there that Duo would shrug off, though it isn't TERRIBLE (it's hard for any recoil to not look bad compared to Duo's lack of recoil). I'd say Phantom deserves its spot on the tier list for at least one more go, but that could be something I can see being discussed for the next iteration.

I guess the testing doesn't back it up or it'd be on there but I would also suggest SA165EWD be added to phantom just because it is such a well distributed part. I guess perhaps with newer stuff or maybe the height messes it up but I've only got good things out of it from what I've tried. I love SA165EWD in general though, it's such a great setup with Dragooon running amok.

I fully agree with this needing testing, like now. Phantom was SIGNIFICANTLY better than Duo on BD145EDS (for pure stamina purposes), and that might be an indication that something like Phantom ___ SA165EWD would work well.

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A Beyblade Testing App for Android
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
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My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

BWD absolutely should not be on the list for Reviser Dragooon SA165___, or any SA165 custom for that matter. It's especially bad on Dragooon, seeing as the fact that it topples extremely quickly kind of ruins the whole point of the combo. The only tip that I can see being considered instead of EWD is W2D, and even that isn't that great. BWD isn't even remotely viable, and I'm baffled as to why it was put on any list in the first place.

I'll respond in full later, but I do agree that BWD should be taken off the Dragooon SA165 custom just because the inferior balance of Synchrom + BWD isn't a great idea. I'll take it off right now. It is, however, perfectly viable on Duo SA165. Not as good as EWD, and it makes more sense in Zero-G where it's ability to resist sway to some degree is valuable, but regardless, it is still viable in BB-10.

W2D should be tested as well; I know there are some players who swear by it if it is 'worn' (to what degree though, I have no idea).

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Hm, maybe I'll try and get some testing done on the whole 230 thing once college apps blow over. That along with the RSF/CS thing. I have no experience with either SA165 or BWD, but I did notice a marked increase in performance from my W2D over time.

Small formatting error in the OP Kei, you need a [ hr ] between attack and defense.

Additionally, I'm pretty sure Duo is viable with E230 in terms of defense, is there any particular disadvantage I'm not aware of or is that just an oversight?

In terms of Balance subcategories, the simplest thing to say would be Attack/Defense, Attack/Stamina, Defense/Stamina. Would that be too simple, however? I don't think we need to be incredibly complicated, for anti-attack we can just make a note or something. Regardless, with the sheer number and variety of balance combos in existence now I feel that subcategories in the section are necessary, since the Balance section in Beyblade is essentially the intersections in a Venn Diagram. Some form of organization is needed.

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"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

That will only lead to arguments about what is and some balance combinations use all three types (usually one primarily with the other two tied) or different types depending on launch/tip condition etc.

I really think it's a waste of time for nothing useful. If people are too lazy to read a list of that length they're not going to do particularly well in a tournament anyway. Perhaps I'm biased because of the format I had to use for the plastics cc list but honestly, I think there are better things to focus on.

Speaking of which, I was wondering if anyone else here thought it might be a good idea to put together a priority testing list for things we need info on ASAP, eg things we want investigated for the CC list or other important stuff? Obviously it would have to be updated actively when testing gets done and is no longer needed etc, but I don't think it could hurt to give people who have the relevant parts and time to test.
I forget whether we have a general testing guide written out or not (I know the testing rules thread is something like that, not sure whether it got updated with more recent stuff or not), if not some directions etc should probably be listed in the post (benchmarking etc).
It might be self centred because I think I raise requests for further testing more than anyone here because my testing/beyblade time is generally occupied by minor formats, but it would also be useful for larger projects that are difficult to get a cohesive response to (cw solo spin tests being the main example in my mind).
Obviously it would not be a place to post testing requests, and I imagine that would need to be made clear in the OP etc.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

It's been awhile since the last update, and theblackdragon has compiled a very helpful list of customs being talked about in the public discussion. I added my thoughts in red, with my overall opinion written in bold:

I'll re-post the list of changes that need to be made.

Well guys, there's been some discussion lately on some things that people would like to see top-tier!
So, I think we need to buckle down and get some tests for these combos if we ever want to see any of them on the list.

Each custom has recorded votes. 4/0, for instance, means 4 "Yes" votes, and 0 "No" votes. 2/2 means 2 "Yes" votes, and 2 "No" votes, etc. If you post saying that you like or dislike a custom, I'll include your vote. If you sound neutral, I won't put anything in.

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First-priority:

• Girago/Genbull Genbull E230MB - 6/0 - placed multiple times, has confirmed results and a bunch of people want to see this up there. (Tests) (Tests)
  YES: This custom is winning tournaments in many locations, so if only for that reason I'm for it being added to Balance.

• (MSF-H) Wyvang Dragooon BD145LRF/R2F - 2/0 - This is prime Anti-Attack material. No confirmed testing, though. (Tests)
  YES: This seems like a shoe-in anti-attacker to me, meaning it'd get a spot on the Balance list.

• (MSF-L) Phantom (Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) SR200TB - 3/2 - Amazing stamina type. Actually has quite a few sets of results, but a couple more members should probably test it. (Tests) (Tests) (Tests) (Tests)
  YES: SR200TB is a darn good stamina setup (so is TH170TB for that matter); I can buy these test results, and I'd personally be very comfortable with adding SR200TB as a standard Stamina track/tip setup across the board.

• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F - 2/1 - Plenty of testing for this one. Needs consideration. Some users are on the edge about this one. I'd personally be fine either way. (Tests)
  MAYBE: I'm a proponent of this custom, but it gets mixed results. I'll leave this one up to you guys.

• MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) E230 (RDF/RSF/RB/CS) - 1/0 - This custom is an amazing pure Defense type. The fact that Attack combinations cannot actually make metal-to-metal contact with it makes it flat-out impossible to take down with even a right-spin Balro combination. (Tests)(Tests)
  NO: Technically we took this off the list the last iteration, but apparently the same people who argued for it being off have made a 180 and are saying it should be back again! I'm on the fence; I still like the argument against it (E230 is too tall for Duo to make contact with the opponent, and as such you might as well put something heavier on it instead), but it is certainly a strong defense custom in its own right.

Second-priority:

• Balro Balro W145WSF - 4/1 - A couple people really like this (me included). Needs tests. (Tests) (Tests)
  MAYBE: Ehhhhhh... I'll admit I haven't tried this yet, so I'll withhold my comments and leave this up to you guys.

• MSF-L Girago Dragooon SA165EWD (Attack mode) - 5/0 - I flippin' LOVE this thing. Multiple members have tested it, and it just recently placed in two different tournaments on the same day. (Tests)
  YES: With the change of the "Tie vs. Win in a Spin Steal Battle" rule, this absolutely 100% needs to go up on the list for Stamina. Under the new rule this is reeeeeeally good.

• Girago Girago SA165MF (Attack mode) - 4/1 - Has testing IIRC. Just needs some consideration. I personally think this one is a must-have. It's a really nice Balance type. (Tests) (Tests)
  MAYBE: ..meh. It's a nice Balance type, sure, but I'm still having trouble understanding this custom's actual purpose, as in why it's a better pick for a tournament than other options. As the numbers show, though, a decent number of people want it on the list, for what that's worth. This is up to you guys.

• MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230BSF - 4/1 - This thing is pretty darn good. It's got tests. Something to consider possibly adding. (Tests) (Tests)
  YES: I love this custom to pieces, and it's actually helped somebody place before, but I know you guys weren't keen on it being on the list. We should add an honorary mentions section, lol

• (MSF-M) Bahamdia Dragooon BD145LRF/R2F - 5/0 - Great left-spin Atack type. Has test results confirmed by several users, and just recently placed twice.(Tests)
  YES: Yes. 333,333x yes. This is easily the best left-spin attacker in the Standard meta, and its test results and tournament placings have been unquestionably spectacular. This is a very important addition to the list IMO.

So, any thoughts? It would be great to send this off to one of the advanced guys and get some updates thrown in there!

By the way, any thoughts on (MSF-M) Bahamdia Dragooon BD145LRF/R2F? It's been pretty thoroughly tested now, and it's placed twice.

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A Beyblade Testing App for Android
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

Full agreement for Bahamdia Ifraid and Bahamdia Dragooon. BI is a very potent combo: I slapped a LW160RF on it and went 2-0 at the last NYC tournament. Bahamdia Dragooon, though the SP230GF one was extremely wacky I'll admit, is a very powerful and excellent combo.

I'll attempt to test stuff like Gryph^2 E230BSF by the next weekend, my first college decision comes out the 12th and if all goes well I'll be free!

I had some issues with Genbull^2 TH170TB. Maybe it's not meant for it and only Phantom/Duo as you indicated, but though it did have pretty decent stamina I wasn't immediately wowed by it.

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"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends. Last night, I experienced something new: an extraordinary meal from a singularly unexpected source. To say that both the meal and its maker have challenged my preconceptions about fine cooking is a gross understatement. They have rocked me to my core. In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto, "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere."

-Anton Ego/Peter O'Toole (1932-2013)

I had some issues with Genbull^2 TH170TB. Maybe it's not meant for it and only Phantom/Duo as you indicated, but though it did have pretty decent stamina I wasn't immediately wowed by it.

What kind of trouble were you having? That's actually my current favorite Standard stamina custom, and it has served me quite well thus far, both in testing and in tournament play. It's nice having a heavy stamina type, and the advantages of the height changing cannot be understated IMO.

---

A Beyblade Testing App for Android
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive