World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations

Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos

Oct. 01, 2012  10:51 PM
 
(Sep. 30, 2012  11:11 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: A note on RF Defense: Duo BD145RF performed significantly better against flash than Diablo BD145RF, because it had better stamina and was basically immune to KO thanks to its low recoil, unlike Diablo which is easier to KO. I know I was a big proponent of Diablo for it but Dan was right to say that Duo was better with RF in terms of pure defense - it lacks the attacking ability that Anti-Attackers have (which is the main reason for the distinction from defense), instead just being a defense type that happens to move (and I hope I don't need to explain how the "defense is immobile" thing is just plain wrong another time...)

I agree. Duo (or something like Reviser Reviser) lacking the attacking ability is the deal-breaker for me, though. Diablo is much more versatile.

I'm also in the boat of the attacking prowess being very important. Another thing I'd like to discuss is Duo's spot on the defense list, such that it's really only still there since it offers much better stamina than Synchroms. On that note, I feel that while Duo RF does work, I can't understand why you wouldn't use a combo that takes advantage of Duo's stamina the greatest (namely RDF- and RB-based combos). If you want anti-attack, Diablo/Basalt RF is the way to go; if you're looking for pure defense, you're better off with a Synchrom. I feel you're shortchanging yourself by using anything with poor stamina on Duo, including stuff like RF. It's just as easy and probably even more effective to use anything with Reviser Reviser.

(Sep. 30, 2012  11:11 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: I think Kei has made his mind up on the number of categories for the time being (Four: Attack, Defense, Stamina, Balance), too.

Yup.
Ah, well, while I personally disagree, that's fine. I'll append an updated version of my tier list below with only those four categories.

(Sep. 30, 2012  11:11 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: As hesitant as I am to bring it up again, Gravity BD145RDF is getting more testing and doing really well, and is the most viable dual spin combo out (which seems to work well for it against Dragooon, though I haven't given everything a thorough read yet).

I think L Drago Destoy/Guardian BD145RDF is more useful overall for it's better defensive prowess (and just weight in general, which always a good thing), but that might just be because Attack types are relatively common here in Toronto.

While the two L-Dragos do have their weight going for them, you do have to factor in the advantages of dual spin. That adds a ton of versatility over our left-spin-only Drago brothers. From the tests alone I can see it being added to the list, though I'll defer that decision to you guys.

(Sep. 30, 2012  11:11 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: Cancer should still be listed on the Duo 230 MB combo as an alternative. The difference between it and cygnus, at least from what I've seen (as I don't own cygnus) is small, and Cancer works very well for me (though I do have that thing with my Phantom just laughing at my Duo no matter what for some reason).

I agree.
That's valid; should we also list Gasher? Gasher and Cancer are technically different, and both are good. I'm assuming we should leave Aquario off, eh?

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote:
(Sep. 30, 2012  11:11 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: I disagree with most of your edits to stamina- BD145EDS is a solid, versatile setup, even with the whole RDF thing, it's generally a decent option against Metal Flat, which isn't uncommon, and still has very good stamina as it doesn't really scrape and BD145 has a great weight distribution. It's generally a lot "safer" than other stamina setups, basically a tradeoff of a little pure stamina for a good amount of peace of mind.

I've always hated BD145EDS because EDS tends to go crazy and self-KO itself seemingly at random whenever I've seen Pockyx3 use it at our tournaments lol. But in all seriousnesss (well, that concern is kind of serious), do we have any recent tests of BD145EDS vs. W145WD, or any other prominent Stamina set ups? Does it auto-lose to things like W145WD? Because I mean, I get that it gives you a "good amount of peace of mind", but of what value is that? If you're not sure if you're opponent will use a Stamina type or an Attack type, why would you choose this? If you pick it, you may have a slightly better chance of beating the Attack type, but you also will probably lose if they choose a pure Stamina type ... personally, I'd rather go all out and choose either a pure Stamina type to combat theirs, or use a Defense type to combat the possibility of an Attack type.
Tell pocky to buy a new EDS lol. BD145EDS admittedly starts to struggle against more 'pure-type' combinations, however during qualifiers when you face things that could have good stamina or might have decent attack, it's a fairly safe choice, and it'll OS a lot of balancey things like LDD/LDG BD145MF which does still pop up a fair bit from what I can tell. Kinda Balance-y, I guess. Now you mention it though, I'm not sure if that's enough to keep it up, though it should still be something we keep in mind depending how things go with Dragooon.
Ditto on Pocky needing a new EDS, haha!

I'd like to reiterate that not only does BD145EDS not fare the greatest against pure stamina, it also straight-up folds to any decent left-spin customs. Where other stamina customs have at least a chance of OSing a spin equalizer, as soon as BD145EDS starts to lose spin velocity at the critical last few seconds of a battle it scrapes and stops spinning. With Dragooon becoming so popular, I'd go so far as to say that BD145EDS is actually NOT a safe pick in a tournament, as while it has the whole weight thing going for it it still doesn't fare that much better than other stamina types if you get tossed up against anything with decent attack.

(Sep. 30, 2012  11:11 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: Surprised that Dragooon+RDF isn't more popular at the moment, but eh.

Me too. I've been wondering if some sort of Dragooon + RDF variant would surpass L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF.

I'll third this notion, actually; MSF-H (Reviser/Saramanda/Dragooon) Dragooon BD145RDF sounds perfectly viable (pretty darn good, even).

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: MLD: Bracket MF/MF-H as optional IMO. W2D itself requires more testing in general IMO.

Gotcha about the Metal Faces, and I totally agree about W2D needing testing. I mostly mentioned it because I've noticed some good things with it, but I wanted to see if other people have noticed the same stuff before I put it on any sort of list.

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: And Flash MF - personally I don't think Orion is the only CW that can work. Escolpio's destabilising effect on taller opponents has been helpful to me when using AD145MF, though perhaps EDS affects that somewhat?

This is totally valid, and I hadn't honestly thought about the clear wheel destabilizing (but I can totally see it). I'll change my tier list to remove the distinction, and I'll take off Horogium.

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: Again, AD145 isn't ready to go yet. Yes, W145 works better but AD145 is still very, very viable.

Removing 230 but leaving TH170 up... Personally I do get much better performance from TH170 however a lot of people disagree (including basically everyone who is in a WBBA area), and it still places very regularly.

This is going to be a sticky spot to work with. Personally I felt the stamina list was getting more than a little out of control, and I feel like it's time for us to really pin down what should be considered "top tier" anymore. As such, I want to see AD145 removed and have W145 added, and I took down 230 seeing as TH170 offers almost identical performance with so much more versatility.

To help address your point of stuff not being "ready to go" yet, I recommend we keep an archive of previous tier lists like I had started to do in the public list discussion. That would allow us to immediately remove stuff like AD145 once we discovered there is a nearly strictly-better piece (W145) while still allowing the older piece to be shown as previously being top-tier.


So, with some discussion being finalized, I'm proposing this for a final tier list:

PROPOSED TIER LIST v2

Quote:
ATTACK


Flash
  • Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces
  • MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
  • MF-H Flash ____ W145 MF

VariAres
  • MF-H VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)


DEFENSE


Duo
  • Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Saggitario II, Hades
  • MF-H Duo ____ BD145 (RB/RDF)
  • MF-H Duo ____ E230 (RB/RS/RSF)

Reviser
  • MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145 (CS/RB/RDF/RS)
  • MSF-H Reviser Reviser E230 (CS/RB/RS/RSF)


STAMINA


Phantom
  • Clear Wheels: Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Hades
  • Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  • Phantom ____ TH170 (D/SD)

Duo
  • Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus
  • Duo ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  • Duo ____ TH170 (D/SD)

Dragooon
  • MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD

Meteo L-Drago
  • (MF/-H) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
  • MF-H Meteo L-Drago TR145 EWD


BALANCE
  • (MF-H/MF-M) Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Gasher) 230 MB
  • MF-H L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  • MF-H Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) BD145 (RF/R2F)
  • MF-H Basalt Horogium (R145/TR145) (RF/R2F)

Changes:
  • Removed Horogium from Flash (the other clear wheels are better)
  • Changed the clear wheels for Flash MF to include more than just Orion
  • Added CS to Reviser Reviser BD145
  • Moved the entire Anti-Attack list to Balance
  • Moved the entire Spin Stealer section to Stamina
  • Added Gasher and Cancer to the clear wheels for Duo 230MB

I am seriously proposing this be submitted as the next tier list right now, format and everything. We need to get a list put up, and I want to say I've addressed almost everything in this iteration. If you guys have more disagreements please say so, but I think we should have something posted at least by the end of the week.
Oct. 02, 2012  6:39 AM
 
RE: RF Defense: Would like to see if Duo RF can outspin Revizer RB/RDF, but aside from that yeah, it could be left off Duo.
As I said, you're still looking for something different out of RF than I am, I'm focussing on its grip rather than any balance-type versatility. I'd propose sticking it on revizer as that would make the strongest defensive custom but with revizer's stamina I'd have to question whether it is worthwhile.

I disagree with listing RSF unless it performs particularly well with E230, its defense really isn't significantly better than CS and its stamina is significantly worse, and based on what I've heard of RB, RSF should be gone.

I always got good results with BD145EDS vs LDD/LDG BD145MF/ED145MF/JB (some things I was messing around with trying to find a good enough balance between survival and attack), but I don't have any Zero G parts yet soooo.

Just list Cancer, Gasher's only difference is a slight change in text.

Until we have an archival thing established, I strongly feel AD145 should be listed as it is still competitive.

230 absolutely must be listed for stamina, however.

I also disagree about Sagittario 2 on Duo for defense. It's not as heavy as Aquario/Bull and its stamina isn't any better than Aquario/Cygnus from the little testing we had, IIRC. Doesn't deserve to be up there.
Oct. 02, 2012  7:44 AM
 
I haven't actually read through Ingulit's proposal thoroughly, but one huge major concern for me and most people would be the lack of 230 for stamina. Many metas around the world have had great success with it. It's safe to say that ALL of TT oriented countries, with the addition of UK & Italy will prefer 230 over TH170 for stamina. It has been proven over and over via tournament results.

By browsing the winning combo's thread, it's actually becoming more evident that TH170 is losing its competitive hold for stamina. Iirc, it has been many months since we all see TH170's placement in a stamina combo. Sure, it has its purpose somewhere in attack types, which even then, it's becoming shadowed slowly with the newer releases of high track variants.

Back when the option of high tracks was only limited to 230 and TH170, comparing them would be like comparing Mac vs PC. It was a stalemate. Those days are behind us now. We should be at the stage where we test and compare those newer high track variants to 230 for stamina.

Now, for reasoning beyond me, other than preference and variety sake, and to accommodate other metas that still prefer TH170 (as rare as they are), it was decided to put both tracks down for stamina. So without further ado;

(Oct. 02, 2012  6:39 AM)th!nk Wrote: 230 absolutely must be listed for stamina, however.

Oct. 02, 2012  2:57 PM
 
(Oct. 02, 2012  6:39 AM)th!nk Wrote: RE: RF Defense: Would like to see if Duo RF can outspin Revizer RB/RDF, but aside from that yeah, it could be left off Duo.
As I said, you're still looking for something different out of RF than I am, I'm focussing on its grip rather than any balance-type versatility. I'd propose sticking it on revizer as that would make the strongest defensive custom but with revizer's stamina I'd have to question whether it is worthwhile.

I'm certainly not trying to argue against RF being an amazing defense tip, I just think we should be looking at Duo differently from standard defense types. Again, the only reason that I can see us still having Duo on the list with Synchroms existing is because it has really good stamina; it's no secret that Synchroms have better pure defense. As such, I personally think that we should only list Duo defense customs that can take advantage of Duo's inherently great stamina (namely RDF and RB, but not CS since Flash would KO it too easily), as anything else would be better suited for Synchrom customs (including RF).

Putting RF on Reviser isn't a half bad idea, actually. Originally I didn't include it since I was trying to stick heavy RF stuff into the Anti-Attack category, but like you said, RF is indeed a great defense tip even without being used on an Anti-Attack custom. Again, like you said, the stamina will be the deciding factor there.

Random aside: What about R2F or even LRF for defense? I'd imagine R2F wouldn't have nearly enough stamina, but how does LRF fare on right-spin?

(Oct. 02, 2012  6:39 AM)th!nk Wrote: I disagree with listing RSF unless it performs particularly well with E230, its defense really isn't significantly better than CS and its stamina is significantly worse, and based on what I've heard of RB, RSF should be gone.
I actually really, really like it on E230 personally. I wouldn't compare it so directly with CS in terms of defensive power; it's not as good as RS, sure, but from what I've seen it's more comparable with RB and RDF, perhaps a bit worse. RSF does catch the tornado ridge, something RB sometimes has trouble doing. I am a big fan of E230(boost)RSF, anyway.

(Oct. 02, 2012  6:39 AM)th!nk Wrote: I always got good results with BD145EDS vs LDD/LDG BD145MF/ED145MF/JB (some things I was messing around with trying to find a good enough balance between survival and attack), but I don't have any Zero G parts yet soooo.
Those are some janky combos, haha! The main problem with BD145EDS is against a left-spin with a D variant, namely WD and EWD. When it gets down to the last few seconds of a battle, the left spin on the D tip will process and stay upright while the BD145EDS topples over and scrapes. You can see this with stuff like Meteo, not just Zero-G.

(Oct. 02, 2012  6:39 AM)th!nk Wrote: Just list Cancer, Gasher's only difference is a slight change in text.
It's actually a good bit heavier (mine is, anyway). They are different, and I'd really like it if people differentiated between them more often, but considering they're still basically interchangeable I can see an argument being made to only list one.

(Oct. 02, 2012  6:39 AM)th!nk Wrote: Until we have an archival thing established, I strongly feel AD145 should be listed as it is still competitive.
We can start the archive with this update! I'll be putting an archive in the public thread, anyway.

(Oct. 02, 2012  6:39 AM)th!nk Wrote: I also disagree about Sagittario 2 on Duo for defense. It's not as heavy as Aquario/Bull and its stamina isn't any better than Aquario/Cygnus from the little testing we had, IIRC. Doesn't deserve to be up there.

It's very much as heavy as Aquario/Bull! In fact, it's my heaviest clear wheel according to my penny scale (accurate down to a hundredth of a gram). Its stamina is definitely lacking compared to Aquario and Cygnus, but I wouldn't say it's any worse than, for example, Bull.

(Oct. 02, 2012  7:44 AM)Uwik Wrote: I haven't actually read through Ingulit's proposal thoroughly, but one huge major concern for me and most people would be the lack of 230 for stamina. Many metas around the world have had great success with it. It's safe to say that ALL of TT oriented countries, with the addition of UK & Italy will prefer 230 over TH170 for stamina. It has been proven over and over via tournament results.

By browsing the winning combo's thread, it's actually becoming more evident that TH170 is losing its competitive hold for stamina. Iirc, it has been many months since we all see TH170's placement in a stamina combo. Sure, it has its purpose somewhere in attack types, which even then, it's becoming shadowed slowly with the newer releases of high track variants.

Back when the option of high tracks was only limited to 230 and TH170, comparing them would be like comparing Mac vs PC. It was a stalemate. Those days are behind us now. We should be at the stage where we test and compare those newer high track variants to 230 for stamina.

Now, for reasoning beyond me, other than preference and variety sake, and to accommodate other metas that still prefer TH170 (as rare as they are), it was decided to put both tracks down for stamina. So without further ado;

(Oct. 02, 2012  6:39 AM)th!nk Wrote: 230 absolutely must be listed for stamina, however.

That all makes perfect sense, and I am totally fine with putting 230 back on the list! I mostly wanted to take as much off the lists as I could so we could discuss each part and put them back on the list slowly, such that we only have the absolute best-of-the-best on there. This is the kind of conversation I was hoping for!
Oct. 02, 2012  4:13 PM
 
Duo RF ReviserGaspkay, I agree with what you've said about Duo and RF and Reviser.
R2F: R2F and LRF have less surface area than RF, despite their greater traction, at least for me, I have more trouble with them being KO'd as a result of recoil.

RSF: In that case RSF can stay then, though I would like to see some in depth comparative tests before next update, as I'm still not convinced it has the Defense required to be on Duo, at least.

BD145EDS: In that case, given how common they are right now, I agree it should go, and of course it will be archived.

Cancer/Gasher: On reweighing mine (rather than rechecking my post) Gasher is slightly heavier, but the performance difference should be unnoticeable, at least too small to test without testers expectations playing a role subconsciously. We've always assumed that unless otherwise mentioned, parts which are listed refer to their alternate hasbro counterparts.

AD145: I'll yield for the sake of getting this update done and because Samurai Ifraid has had about a bajillion releases now, and because of your Archival thing.

Sagittario II: Mine's lighter than even my Legend Series Bull, which is the lightest of my Aquarios and Bulls. Most weights reflect this. For the time being, we should leave it off, as the list is already long, Bull itself should probably be removed as it is, and it's like .05g heavier at most than my Cancers.

Format: I strongly agree that the format should be changed, particularly for the track/tip split. However, I'm not going to wait for Kei to stop being silly about it with the tier list being so out of date, so here's a non split version of Ingulit's tier list with any agreed-upon changes made so we can actually get this up.

I am adamant the next update will split the different combos for the same wheels, seeing as there's a basic consensus that it should happen by everyone who has posted apart from Kei, and if he's not able to put aside his own personal concerns against a clear consensus then he clearly lacks the objectivity required to have his already large say in the process.

Quote:ATTACK
  • Metal Face-Heavy Flash Escolpio/Orion/Pisces CH120/S130/GB145/H145/W145 RF/R2F/MF
  • Metal Face-Heavy VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF

DEFENSE
  • Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus/Hades BD145/E230 RB/RDF/RS/RSF
  • Metal Stone Face-Heavy Revizer Revizer BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS/RSF

STAMINA
  • Phantom Cancer/Cygnus/Hades W145/TH170/230 D/EWD/SD/SWD/WD
  • Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus/Hades W145/TH170/230 D/EWD/PD/SD/SWD/WD
  • (Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy) Meteo L Drago CH120/TR145 EWD
  • Metal Stone Face/Metal Stone Face-Heavy Revizer Dragooon SA165EWD

BALANCE
  • (Metal Face-Heavy/Metal Face-Middle) Duo Cygnus/Cancer 230 MB
  • Metal Face-Heavy L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  • Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 RF/R2F
  • Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Horogium R145/TR145 RF/R2F


Stuff not on here that has been discussed previously and should be discussed heavily for next update: Duo Cygnus 160PD/D, 160 for Stamina (D on Phantom, PD/D on Duo?), SA165 for Defense/Stamina, Killerken for Defense and whatever else, W2D, Gravity Perseus BD145RDF, and other things that haven't had quite as much discussion here but have in the public thread or anything else I forgot (sorry, writing the list in this horrible messy format is as exhausting as reading it).

Anyway, unless anyone has major concerns can we all agree and update this darned thing finally?

Once that's sorted we can discuss all these formatting things without the pressure of needing to update immediately.
Oct. 02, 2012  5:02 PM
 
I like it, let's put it up!


So, after we post the list, I say we take some time to put some things to a vote, taking a few days to focus on a single topic before moving to vote on a new one. I'm thinking 3-4 days per topic, and I think I'll make a new thread for each topic so we can have a poll and stuff (anyone can vote on the polls which may or may not be a good thing). I'll post a thread with the topic ideas I have after we update the list (I don't want to bog down discussion before we get the list posted).
Oct. 06, 2012  2:55 PM
 
(Oct. 02, 2012  4:13 PM)Technocrat Wrote: Anyway, unless anyone has major concerns can we all agree and update this darned thing finally?

Once that's sorted we can discuss all these formatting things without the pressure of needing to update immediately.

Advanced forum (esp. Kei) r u there dude

people look up to you

EDIT: Oh hey Hazel, any thoughts on the tier list? I mean I know you can't test right now but based on what you've read, or any experience you do have that is relevant, do you have any thoughts? It would be good, you see, this post is worded as such to highlight how ridiculous the inactivity of most members of this forum is, and how tiresome it becomes for those of us who are active. So some input would be really nice.
Oct. 06, 2012  9:29 PM
 
I have no particular objections to the combinations suggested in the list given my limited knowledgebase, but I would rather see it go up after adding the subcategories being discussed elsewhere.
Oct. 06, 2012  9:31 PM
 
Perhaps, but that is still ongoing and the list hasn't been updated since Zero-G's start, so it would be nice to have it updated first. That way, we can have more time to properly discuss the categories to be used rather than rushing things.
Oct. 07, 2012  4:08 AM
 
The list has been updated! I promised that we would at least get an updated list of what is generally agreed upon this weekend, so here we are. Smile I also added a section called "Previous Lists" ... I'm not sure why we didn't do this before!

Changes to Inguilit's list:
- Added 230 for Duo and Phantom
- Removed Sagittario II from Duo for Defense. There doesn't seem to be any type of consensus yet regarding it's addition for this purpose.
- All instances of "Cancer, Gasher" have been changed to "Cancer/Gasher"

And just a few questions on things I'm not sure of myself:
- Hades for Defense?
- Why no RDF for E230?
- In theory, I've always loved Basalt RF combinations, but I've never really heard of them being put to good use in competitive situations/placing with any sort of consistency. Now, I'm not suggesting that they are bad simply because they often ever place, but are we sure that these types of combinations really have a place in the metagame right now? Why, for example, would you use a Basalt RF combination over Diablo BD145RF?
Oct. 07, 2012  4:52 AM
 
Yay, thankyou. Great to see you've accepted the split as being helpful to the game.

I made a couple of small alterations in my edit, but then many of those were only possible because of the merge.

Yeah I strongly disagree with adding Sagittario 2, it's only close to bull which is the worst thing on that list. I'd rather have the stamina provided by Cancer than a meagre .1 of a gram at most (and usually even less) which is around 0.1% of a defensive beyblade's weight - cancer will give you noticeably better results against things while more weight won't.
Hades for defense I'm not sure about as I don't have one to weigh, but its stamina seems solid from everything I've read about it, and I'm very much of the opinion, as you can see, that stamina clear wheels on defensive beys is a good idea.

RDF for E230, Ingulit said it scraped too much, though I think it could be listed until we can say it is definitely inferior to another option.

I think it is used for its superior stamina, especially with TR145 which apparently has great synergy with it. Plus I imagine its compactness makes up for the weight at high speeds.
Jun. 11, 2013  1:40 AM
 
I posted this in the public discussion not to long ago, but I figure it probably also belongs here. This is nearly verbatim, hence the overly detailed explanations for this group, haha. I'd love some critique!


So, it's been quite a long time since this has seen an update, and I think it's about time to start discussing the next iteration! I'll go on ahead a post a working list that I'd love critique on.

I want to put Meow!'s anti-meta custom Death Escolpio 90RF on here somewhere, but I have no clue where lol

KEY Wrote:Black - These customs stay the same as the last list.
Red - These customs would be removed from the last list.
Green - These customs would be added from the last list.
Blue - These are my comments on this working list.

WORKING COMPETITIVE LIST Wrote:
ATTACK


Flash
Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces, Beelzeb, Ionis
  1. MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
  2. MF-H Flash ____ W145 MF
Explanations (Click to View)


VariAres
  1. MF-H VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Explanations (Click to View)


Wyvang
  1. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/??145) (RF/R2F)
  2. (MSF-H) Wyvang Dragooon SA165[Attack] R2F

Explanations (Click to View)


Balro
  1. (MSF-H) Balro Balro CH120 R2F

Explanations (Click to View)


Bahamdia
  1. MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165 (RF/R2F)

Explanations (Click to View)



DEFENSE


NOTE: SP230 (Click to View)


Duo
Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer/Gasher, Cygnus, Hades
  1. MF-H Duo ____ BD145 (RB/RDF)
  2. MF-H Duo ____ E230 (RB/RS/RSF/RDF)
Explanations (Click to View)


Scythe
Clear Wheels: Kronos, Uranus, Pisces
  1. MF-H Scythe ____ 85 RS

Explanations (Click to View)


Right-Spin Synchrom
TOP Chrome Wheels: Reviser, Killerken
BOT Chrome Wheels: Reviser, Killerken
  1. MSF-H [BOT] [TOP] BD145 (CS/RB/RDF/RS)
  2. MSF-H [BOT] [TOP] E230 (CS/RB/RS/RSF/RDF)

Explanations (Click to View)



STAMINA

Phantom
  1. Clear Wheels: Cancer/Gasher, Cygnus, Hades
  2. Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  3. Phantom ____ TH170 (D/SD/TB)
  4. Phantom ____ (LW160/160) PD
  5. Phantom ____ SR200 TB
  6. Phantom ____ 230 (D/SD)

Duo
  1. Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer/Gasher, Cygnus
  2. Duo ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  3. Duo ____ TH170 (D/SD/TB)
  4. Duo ____ (LW160/160) PD
  5. Duo ____ SR200 TB
  6. Duo ____ 230 (D/SD)
Explanations (Click to View)


Genbull
  1. Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
  2. Genbull Genbull TH170 TB

Explanations (Click to View)


Dragooon
  1. MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165 (EWD/RDF)
Explanations (Click to View)


Meteo L-Drago
  1. (MF/-H) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
  2. MF-H Meteo L-Drago TR145 EWD

Explanations (Click to View)



BALANCE

  1. MF-H L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
    -=-
  2. (MF-H/MF-M) Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Gasher) 230 MB
    -=-
  3. MF-H Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) BD145 (RF/R2F)
    -=-
  4. MF-H Basalt Horogium (R145/TR145) (RF/R2F)
    -=-
  5. MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF
    -=-
  6. MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF
    -=-
  7. MSF(-H) Gryph Gryph E230BSF
    -=-
  8. MSF-H Bahamdia Dragooon SP230GF
Explanations (Click to View)
Jun. 11, 2013  11:15 AM
 
I don't see anything change-wise I know about and disagree with, but I'd question RDF on a stamina combo - that's balance. I'm not really up to date at all, but I definitely agree with the removals.
As for meow's combo, if it does things multiple types do, balance. If it just takes hits well, defense. Haven't read the thread though.

As a side note, I'm surprised Diablo is still around, expected synchromes to wipe it right off the map (especially with what I heard about wyvern), but it does still seem to do fine in tournaments so I guess I was wrong, haha.
Jun. 11, 2013  5:35 PM
 
(Jun. 11, 2013  11:15 AM)th!nk Wrote: I don't see anything change-wise I know about and disagree with, but I'd question RDF on a stamina combo - that's balance.

Yeah, that's valid. They were otherwise mirror combos so I lumped them together, but technically it is much more of a balance. (As a side note, this is why we might need a "left spin" section; I don't want to call it "spin stealer" since basically everything in this meta spins left, haha)

(Jun. 11, 2013  11:15 AM)th!nk Wrote: As for meow's combo, if it does things multiple types do, balance. If it just takes hits well, defense. Haven't read the thread though.

It's an "anti-meta" custom, but it requires an obscene amount of skill and it's otherwise extremely light. I love the custom, but I'm not unsure if it's list level given the aforementioned issues.

(Jun. 11, 2013  11:15 AM)th!nk Wrote: As a side note, I'm surprised Diablo is still around, expected synchromes to wipe it right off the map (especially with what I heard about wyvern), but it does still seem to do fine in tournaments so I guess I was wrong, haha.

Er, Wyvang? Yeah, Wyvang basically eats everything lol

Diablo is still one of the best anti-attack wheels. It's got comparable-ish weight to Synchroms, and it has really stood the test of time. Basalt is more what I'm concerned about, though it's still putting up good numbers.
Jun. 11, 2013  5:44 PM
 
Probably worth changing the name, then.

Anti-meta says nothing much to me. The criteria I listed should work for any combo though, if it is competitive in the first place.

D'oh HMS on the brain.
Jun. 12, 2013  3:47 AM
 
(Jun. 11, 2013  5:44 PM)th!nk Wrote: Anti-meta says nothing much to me. The criteria I listed should work for any combo though, if it is competitive in the first place.

Give 'er a look, it's a fun read, haha! http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Anti-Met...ttack-Mode

My primary concern is that while this did well against the ideal meta AT THE TIME, I'm not sure if the meta has evolved in a way that is favorable to the custom (maybe, maybe not, literally don't know lol).
Sep. 10, 2013  3:01 PM
 
From the Public Discussion thread:

(Sep. 09, 2013  6:21 PM)theblackdragon Wrote: Anywho, about a final draft, does anyone actually object to anything on this?

Spoiler (Click to View)

As I stated in the public discussion, I like this list well enough.
Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM
 
For Attack, do you think that Bahamdia Ifraid is viable? Or Bahamdia Dragooon. I remember testing both on SA165 R2F/RF and thinking that it wasn't terribly consistent against BD145, but Bahamdia is such an intensely aggressive Wheel that I think it deserves some consideration/further testing. Perhaps that's something to figure out for future updates, though.

- MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)

RS on E230? Really?

- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario)

I think maybe we can take Aquario off the list if we're certain that the other Clear Wheels are better? We don't have to list everything that is remotely competitive.

- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) SR200TB
- Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
- Genbull Genbull TH170TB

Can somebody summarize why these are good? I'm generally not a fan of TB, so I'd like to know how this one works and what it is good against. From the tests you've linked to for the Genbull versions, it doesn't seem that good, imo. And I noticed that nobody tested it against Duo SA165EWD. Speaking of which … where the hell is Duo SA165EWD on this list?! I can't believe it was excluded. It will be added.

- Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)

I'm having a hard time understanding why this is listed. It's not bad, but it's also far to vulnerable against too many things with it's height in combination with the recoil Phantom suffers from. Even TH170 is a bit iffy, but it's not as bad as 230 for this combo in my opinion. Having TH170 listed is good enough, because yes, we can't disregard how great Phantom's Stamina is.

- MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF

What an odd–yet interesting!–combo. However, again I notice that it hasn't been tested against Duo SA165EWD. This combo is more important than I think you guys are giving it credit for. Since this can "force smash the polycarbonate out of anything below 160", I do wonder how it would do against SA165.

Finally, I think that Dragooon and Duo B:D and F230 CF/GCF should be added. Any particular reason why they haven't been added?
Sep. 22, 2013  5:12 AM
 
All this is from what I have tested:

(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: For Attack, do you think that Bahamdia Ifraid is viable? Or Bahamdia Dragooon. I remember testing both on SA165 R2F/RF and thinking that it wasn't terribly consistent against BD145, but Bahamdia is such an intensely aggressive Wheel that I think it deserves some consideration/further testing. Perhaps that's something to figure out for future updates, though.

- MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)

RS on E230? Really?

RS gets worn really quick on heavy combinations which I dislike, but it also doesn't work too well. As soon as something heavy knocks it off balance, that's basically it for E230RS.

(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: - Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario)

I think maybe we can take Aquario off the list if we're certain that the other Clear Wheels are better? We don't have to list everything that is remotely competitive.

Aquario absorbs shock well in combinations such as: BD145 RDF/RSF/etc. to higher heights like W145R2F because of its bulkiness. I quite like it so I say we keep it on there.

(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: - Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) SR200TB
- Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
- Genbull Genbull TH170TB

Can somebody summarize why these are good? I'm generally not a fan of TB, so I'd like to know how this one works and what it is good against. From the tests you've linked to for the Genbull versions, it doesn't seem that good, imo. And I noticed that nobody tested it against Duo SA165EWD.

I've tested Duo and Genbull Genbull SR200TB, and I'd say that it's a decent addition. But frankly, i've noticed it has a lot of trouble with stamina combos such as Duo. Its grinding capabilities is niche though.

(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: - Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)

I'm having a hard time understanding why this is listed. It's not bad, but it's also far to vulnerable against too many things with it's height in combination with the recoil Phantom suffers from. Even TH170 is a bit iffy, but it's not as bad as 230 for this combo in my opinion. Having TH170 listed is good enough, because yes, we can't disregard how great Phantom's Stamina is.

I never liked that combo. It has a lot of balancing issues and is vulnerable to easy KOes to basically anything with decent weight and a fast attack-oriented tip.

Plus that mode has more recoil than the other, correct? A half to a third of the time it will end up facing something lower than what it is.

(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: - MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF

What an odd–yet interesting!–combo. However, again I notice that it hasn't been tested against Duo SA165EWD. This combo is more important than I think you guys are giving it credit for. Since this can "force smash the polycarbonate out of anything below 160", I do wonder how it would do against SA165.

That combo is very nice, and has great stamina + lasts very long within the battles. But it seems to lose a lot form what I've tested, such as with Duo W145_D.

(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: Finally, I think that Dragooon and Duo BGrin and F230 CF/GCF should be added. Any particular reason why they haven't been added?

Dragooon BGrin is a yes. Phantom F230 CF/GCF (CF works x10 better since it's slower and smoother) is a great combination from what i've tested. It wins 90% of the time against Stamina and obviously Defense. Attack I have yet to test.
Sep. 22, 2013  12:30 PM
 
I don't have many ZG wheels, but here's my 2c:

From what I've played around with RS isn't really any worse on E230 than it is on anything else, really. It's not a very practical part right now as Attack isn't dominant (back when it came out and wrecked a massive chunk of the metagame (the "right spin aggro wheel" chunk to which a tonne of early wheels belonged), it was a different matter entirely IMO but yeah), but I think everyone understands that it is only to be used against Rubber-tipped Attack, so unless there is a popular rubber tipped attack setup from ZG that outspins it on a certain setup, I still think it deserves a spot because it is still the hardest tip to KO overall.

I vote for taking Aquario off. It's very clearly inferior in terms of stamina (which is important for every duo combo) and Cancer performs perfectly fine, sometimes even really well against taller opponents already - whereas my experience with aquario in this respect (a sizeable amount, albeit from the time of the maximum series or thereabouts) is just that it "is okay" against taller opponents - which is nice but certainly no reason to keep it up here. Aquario's removal is long, long overdue IMO, and to be honest I find it weird that it has remained so long, given Aquario's inferiority for survival is one of the few things about CW survival performance we have managed to establish to a good extent.
Though that is just for stamina, for defense it should stay due to its weight and the fact it is still decent (and people should be able to gather from it not being listed for anything else that its stamina isn't comparable to other options there), though I personally prefer to go with the best clear wheel stamina wise for defense as the additional weight of the CW probably isn't going to make that big a difference, even with Duo being as light as it is.

I recall Phantom 230D doing well in a few metagames (UK and maybe Indo). In general it works nicely enough for me but then my Phantom has a record of being unusually good against my Duo and I don't have many ZG's to test balancey stuff against it, but at the least with my phantom it seems viable enough, hah. I personally prefer TH170 to 230 on the combo though (I generally prefer TH170 over 230 for everything), but again we have to be mindful that there are areas where no one will touch TH170 if 230 is available and they seem to get results to back it up...

As for TB, it was pretty widely accepted that it worked really well at least in particular setups, so it shouldn't be hard to find info/testing to back that up - there was a pretty clear consensus amongst a bunch of members whose opinions I respect on it being competitive, at least.

I might be remembering wrong but isn't killerken also viable in place of Reviser in Dragooon spin-stealers etc? Also curious about Genbull for the same but I guess this isn't the place, haha.

Also, perhaps I missed stuff but is there a reason only SA165 is being used for Dragooon RDF, i.e. BD145 not being there any more? As I recall SA165 has less defense which I would think could be a problem (especially as RDF is doing most of the late-game survival in that setup anyway). Perhaps I'm wrong, though, I don't have much experience with the setup.


Lastly, I do see one thing on that list I don't agree with: Scythe 85RS: With so many Dragooon (i.e. left spin) setups running around (especially ones that have good precession/round-ish lower parts), which generally cause it a tonne of trouble, I really have to question its viability.


EDIT: Woah hey just noticed something

Dragooon B: D : Everything I've done with Revizer Dragooon B: D has indicated it is little more than an inferior version of SA165EWD, because it can't handle opposing EWD setups at all well - MF-M Duo Cancer AD145EWD, for example (IIRC MF-M Basalt Kerbecs SA165EWD did well against it, though I only have the one SA165 so I can't do a proper comparison)
No full tests but I can do tests of it vs the duo combo tomorrow, if need be, because I really do not think this belongs on the list. Unlike Duo and Death, Dragooon setups do not have the roundness or natural stamina to pull of a B: D setup in BB-10, or at least not one which holds a candle to Dragooon SA165EWD.
I feel like there's way too much hype about this spilling over from Zero-G where B: D is an asset rather than a liability.
Honestly it's kinda weird seeing you talk about Duo SA165EWD being overlooked and then proposing this be added, seeing as I have always felt people overlooking SA165EWD's combination of excellent regular stamina and even better precession ability was a big reason behind Dragooon B: D being considered competitive by some.

tl;dr: Strong Objection to Dragooon B: D being added, based on experience with it and most relevant parts.

Duo B: D: The presence of Dragooon SA165EWD probably justifies this, but I am generally iffy about promoting B: D for stamina at all - it's never been good enough to make the list based on straight stamina (IIRC TH170 was the largest contributor to that, both as a comparison and a direct opponent) (a lot of people put it down to it being too easy to KO but that was never the basis of my belief about it not deserving a spot), but I guess it's just a matter of making sure that the fact its straight stamina is not that great is made clear in Beywiki whenever this comes up there. I'd still like to see Comparisons of this and SA165EWD, personally, but whatever.

Obviously I am also 100% behind adding Duo SA165EWD to the list, and I would also suggest maybe adding MF-M as an option there - the same reason it works on 230MB applies here, in general it helps a lot with staying upright, which means less getting under opponents and being toppled while wobbling late in the match, which seems even more relevant with the number of spin stealers around now. I think Uwik was a proponent of this in general as well, but perhaps we were just talking specifically about 230mb. Haven't had much from it on phantom at least in terms of pure stamina though, seeing as phantoms thing is its obscenely good weight distribution which that interferes with a lot more (phantom being a lot more prone to that than Duo as seen with clear wheels).

SA165 seems to be missing from stamina in general. Everything I've done with it has pointed to it being excellent though I lack W145, I rather like it on Phantom where it helps with the recoil a bit.

Would like to see MSF-M tested on the Dragooon setups (including dragooon b: d), too.
Sep. 23, 2013  4:24 AM
 
(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: For Attack, do you think that Bahamdia Ifraid is viable? Or Bahamdia Dragooon. I remember testing both on SA165 R2F/RF and thinking that it wasn't terribly consistent against BD145, but Bahamdia is such an intensely aggressive Wheel that I think it deserves some consideration/further testing. Perhaps that's something to figure out for future updates, though.

I'm actually still a huge proponent of at least MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F being on the list, TBH; I had it in my draft, but it fell to the wayside in the public discussion a bit. I still think it's a powerhouse, and should DEFINITELY be looked into for the next list at the latest.


(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: - MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)

RS on E230? Really?

I actually really like RS on E230, namely in boost mode. The combination of the high center of gravity with the raw grip and stationary movement pattern of RS make E230[boost]RS combos especially difficult to KO. I loved MF-H Duo __ E230[boost]RS back before Reviser became a thing since its stamina and raw defense enabled it to take out all Flash variants other than MF-H Flash __ W145MF really consistently.

th!nk put the argument for RS really well in his post above, and I agree with what he said there.


(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: - Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario)

I think maybe we can take Aquario off the list if we're certain that the other Clear Wheels are better? We don't have to list everything that is remotely competitive.

I agree with what th!nk said about this completely, especially that it is bad for the stamina list (there are better options) but fine for the defense list (it's still over 3.2g and is well balanced, though I'd still use Cygnus on a defense custom first all day every day). See his post above.


(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: - Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) SR200TB
- Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
- Genbull Genbull TH170TB

Can somebody summarize why these are good? I'm generally not a fan of TB, so I'd like to know how this one works and what it is good against. From the tests you've linked to for the Genbull versions, it doesn't seem that good, imo. And I noticed that nobody tested it against Duo SA165EWD.

I didn't believe it myself when KainHighwind first told me it was good for stamina; I imagined that TB would just be another WB like tip, which is to say it wouldn't find a home. Upon testing it, though, I realized I was very, very wrong; it's good on the right setup, showing both D's ability to right itself and MB's ability to spin at crazy steep angles. Genbull Genbull TH170TB is far and away my favorite stamina custom right now; I love having an endurance bey that weighs as much as a truck yet can still take down MF-M Duo Cygnus 230MB with ease.


(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: Speaking of which … where the hell is Duo SA165EWD on this list?! I can't believe it was excluded. It will be added.

Make that custom a thread!!! It's long overdue, considering how often it is in the winning customs thread.

The main reason this hasn't been on many list drafts is, IMO, the fact that is stamina isn't actually that great compared to other top tier stamina Beyblades. Since I've been trying it again recently I'm really unimpressed with its stamina; almost all other pure stamina customs I throw against it have no trouble OSing it, though its stamina isn't horrible by any means. Its ability to tackle Dragooon is extremely relevant, though, and that combined with its ability to handle defense customs (like any stamina Beyblade worth its weight in salt) is enough to warrant a spot IMO.

Side note: has anyone tried Death on this custom yet?


(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: - Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)

I'm having a hard time understanding why this is listed. It's not bad, but it's also far to vulnerable against too many things with it's height in combination with the recoil Phantom suffers from. Even TH170 is a bit iffy, but it's not as bad as 230 for this combo in my opinion. Having TH170 listed is good enough, because yes, we can't disregard how great Phantom's Stamina is.

I've been pulling for 230 being taken off the stamina list for a long time, lol! IMO TH170 does its job but better outside of very specific customs like MF-M Duo Cygnus 230MB. It's especially bad on Phantom, which cannot do the whole "lololol I'm spinning almost horizontally but still not scraping" thing that Duo does on that track. I'd take Phantom TH195 over Phantom 230 any day of the week.


(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: - MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF

What an odd–yet interesting!–combo. However, again I notice that it hasn't been tested against Duo SA165EWD. This combo is more important than I think you guys are giving it credit for. Since this can "force smash the polycarbonate out of anything below 160", I do wonder how it would do against SA165.

This custom certainly is odd, lol; despite its quirks, though, it has helped some people place with it in the past, which shouldn't be totally overlooked. Is it list worthy? Maybe, maybe not, but it IS surprisingly good, haha!

I'd say that the reason this custom wasn't tested against that is primarily due to Duo SA165EWD not being a well-known thing when that custom was first being tested. Again, it would be great to see Duo SA165EWD get a thread with how much it's popping up in the Winning Customs thread where we can test stuff like this.


(Sep. 21, 2013  8:22 PM)Kei Wrote: Finally, I think that Dragooon and Duo BGrin and F230 CF/GCF should be added. Any particular reason why they haven't been added?

I was wondering about F230(CF/GCF); it certainly seems to be popular. I wish it was easier to get one's hands on an orange F230 (not that a part's availability would keep it off of a list like this if it really is that good).

As far as B: D goes, I'm with th!nk in that it is probably justified on Duo anymore, but it's not fantastic on Dragooon compared to other options. I also am a proponent for Death B: D, but that's another story (I like Death okay) .n.


(Sep. 22, 2013  12:30 PM)th!nk Wrote: I might be remembering wrong but isn't killerken also viable in place of Reviser in Dragooon spin-stealers etc? Also curious about Genbull for the same but I guess this isn't the place, haha.

Yeah, Killerken needs to go up for customs like MSF-H Killerken/Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD. Genbull probably wouldn't be bad either, and heck, even Gargole and Girago would probably be decent as well.

For at least MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD, I still maintain that Reviser is the best wheel, but other options aren't bad by any means.


(Sep. 22, 2013  12:30 PM)th!nk Wrote: Also, perhaps I missed stuff but is there a reason only SA165 is being used for Dragooon RDF, i.e. BD145 not being there any more? As I recall SA165 has less defense which I would think could be a problem (especially as RDF is doing most of the late-game survival in that setup anyway). Perhaps I'm wrong, though, I don't have much experience with the setup.

That's not on that list? I missed that (I didn't write it), and yeah, Dragooon BD145RDF definitely needs to be on there too.


(Sep. 22, 2013  12:30 PM)th!nk Wrote: Lastly, I do see one thing on that list I don't agree with: Scythe 85RS: With so many Dragooon (i.e. left spin) setups running around (especially ones that have good precession/round-ish lower parts), which generally cause it a tonne of trouble, I really have to question its viability.

This is a valid concern. If your metagame is super attack heavy it holds an important niche of totally neutering Wyvang, but it definitely fails hardcore to left spin. I'm of the opinion that it is good enough inside its niche to be listed, but I concede that this argument is a compelling one.
Sep. 23, 2013  4:37 AM
 
I think the reason no one made a Duo Cancer SA165EWD thread is that it's pretty much just a generic stamina setup that just happens to do extremely well against left-spin setups, and traditionally we don't bother with threads for generic combos. Generally just goes in the thread for the main or most recently released part, but I guess nowadays things are quiet so it's not like anyone would mind.

Did the color thing with F230 get settled? If one color is significantly better to the point the other isn't competitive, it should be noted on the list IMO (just put an asterisk on it and add a note at the bottom of appropriate categories), at least until a full beywiki entry is made for the part.

Other than that I don't have much to add.
Sep. 23, 2013  5:14 AM
 
(Sep. 22, 2013  12:30 PM)th!nk Wrote: Dragooon B: D : Everything I've done with Revizer Dragooon B: D has indicated it is little more than an inferior version of SA165EWD, .........

tl;dr: Strong Objection to Dragooon B: D being added, based on experience with it and most relevant parts.

Wait, I've been out of the competitive meta for a while, but is ___ Dragooon B:D really obsolete nowadays? I vividly remember back then in a tournament, Killerken Dragooon B:D was winning 3-0s against Killerken Dragooon SA165 EWD, and yes, that's putting aside its spin steal ability. In terms of stamina, I think ___ Dragooon B:D is still a decent setup.

(Sep. 23, 2013  4:24 AM)Ingulit Wrote: I actually really like RS on E230, namely in boost mode. The combination of the high center of gravity with the raw grip and stationary movement pattern of RS make E230[boost]RS combos especially difficult to KO.

I disagree. RS on 230 tracks has such bad balance that it pretty much negates any grip it's supposed to have. Yes, it might be difficult to KO, but it will still get tossed around, and losing loads of stamina in the process, which even an Attack setup on an RF can potentially outspin.

(Sep. 23, 2013  4:24 AM)Ingulit Wrote: I've been pulling for 230 being taken off the stamina list for a long time, lol! ........ I'd take Phantom TH195 over Phantom 230 any day of the week.

Don't even.... What the... ? Lol... No...
Sep. 23, 2013  2:44 PM
 
Was that ever the case outside of Zero-G (barring hype overflowing from there to bb-10)? It really never seemed threatening the many times I've used it... But, after doing some more rounds with revizer dragooon sa165ewd against the duo combo mentioned it also doesn't fare that well, so I will tone down my objection a little. Still think it's more hype than merit though Uncertain

I'd want to see testing on (relevant wheel setup - i.e. not revizer revizer where i'd not be surprised at it sucking) E230RS vs relevant attack setups from at least two different people before a decision is made to remove it, which I think is justified given we're talking about removing one of the hardest to KO setups in the game from the defense list. Not something that should be done lightly. I may try it myself if I get time but that's not likely at this stage (and I don't really have any suitable synchromes that don't have appalling stamina anyway).

I'm glad you rocked up to advocate 230, seeing as I personally share the other's experience with it compared to TH170. Stilllllll getting the same matchup results from when I tested the track in the first place.
Sep. 28, 2013  5:39 AM
 
My thoughts. Enjoy!!
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Edit:
Added:
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