A note on RF Defense: Duo BD145RF performed significantly better against flash than Diablo BD145RF, because it had better stamina and was basically immune to KO thanks to its low recoil, unlike Diablo which is easier to KO. I know I was a big proponent of Diablo for it but Dan was right to say that Duo was better with RF in terms of pure defense - it lacks the attacking ability that Anti-Attackers have (which is the main reason for the distinction from defense), instead just being a defense type that happens to move (and I hope I don't need to explain how the "defense is immobile" thing is just plain wrong another time...)

I agree. Duo (or something like Reviser Reviser) lacking the attacking ability is the deal-breaker for me, though. Diablo is much more versatile.

I'm also in the boat of the attacking prowess being very important. Another thing I'd like to discuss is Duo's spot on the defense list, such that it's really only still there since it offers much better stamina than Synchroms. On that note, I feel that while Duo RF does work, I can't understand why you wouldn't use a combo that takes advantage of Duo's stamina the greatest (namely RDF- and RB-based combos). If you want anti-attack, Diablo/Basalt RF is the way to go; if you're looking for pure defense, you're better off with a Synchrom. I feel you're shortchanging yourself by using anything with poor stamina on Duo, including stuff like RF. It's just as easy and probably even more effective to use anything with Reviser Reviser.

I think Kei has made his mind up on the number of categories for the time being (Four: Attack, Defense, Stamina, Balance), too.

Yup.

Ah, well, while I personally disagree, that's fine. I'll append an updated version of my tier list below with only those four categories.

As hesitant as I am to bring it up again, Gravity BD145RDF is getting more testing and doing really well, and is the most viable dual spin combo out (which seems to work well for it against Dragooon, though I haven't given everything a thorough read yet).

I think L Drago Destoy/Guardian BD145RDF is more useful overall for it's better defensive prowess (and just weight in general, which always a good thing), but that might just be because Attack types are relatively common here in Toronto.

While the two L-Dragos do have their weight going for them, you do have to factor in the advantages of dual spin. That adds a ton of versatility over our left-spin-only Drago brothers. From the tests alone I can see it being added to the list, though I'll defer that decision to you guys.

Cancer should still be listed on the Duo 230 MB combo as an alternative. The difference between it and cygnus, at least from what I've seen (as I don't own cygnus) is small, and Cancer works very well for me (though I do have that thing with my Phantom just laughing at my Duo no matter what for some reason).

I agree.

That's valid; should we also list Gasher? Gasher and Cancer are technically different, and both are good. I'm assuming we should leave Aquario off, eh?

I disagree with most of your edits to stamina- BD145EDS is a solid, versatile setup, even with the whole RDF thing, it's generally a decent option against Metal Flat, which isn't uncommon, and still has very good stamina as it doesn't really scrape and BD145 has a great weight distribution. It's generally a lot "safer" than other stamina setups, basically a tradeoff of a little pure stamina for a good amount of peace of mind.

I've always hated BD145EDS because EDS tends to go crazy and self-KO itself seemingly at random whenever I've seen Pockyx3 use it at our tournaments lol. But in all seriousnesss (well, that concern is kind of serious), do we have any recent tests of BD145EDS vs. W145WD, or any other prominent Stamina set ups? Does it auto-lose to things like W145WD? Because I mean, I get that it gives you a "good amount of peace of mind", but of what value is that? If you're not sure if you're opponent will use a Stamina type or an Attack type, why would you choose this? If you pick it, you may have a slightly better chance of beating the Attack type, but you also will probably lose if they choose a pure Stamina type ... personally, I'd rather go all out and choose either a pure Stamina type to combat theirs, or use a Defense type to combat the possibility of an Attack type.

Tell pocky to buy a new EDS lol. BD145EDS admittedly starts to struggle against more 'pure-type' combinations, however during qualifiers when you face things that could have good stamina or might have decent attack, it's a fairly safe choice, and it'll OS a lot of balancey things like LDD/LDG BD145MF which does still pop up a fair bit from what I can tell. Kinda Balance-y, I guess. Now you mention it though, I'm not sure if that's enough to keep it up, though it should still be something we keep in mind depending how things go with Dragooon.

Ditto on Pocky needing a new EDS, haha!

I'd like to reiterate that not only does BD145EDS not fare the greatest against pure stamina, it also straight-up folds to any decent left-spin customs. Where other stamina customs have at least a chance of OSing a spin equalizer, as soon as BD145EDS starts to lose spin velocity at the critical last few seconds of a battle it scrapes and stops spinning. With Dragooon becoming so popular, I'd go so far as to say that BD145EDS is actually NOT a safe pick in a tournament, as while it has the whole weight thing going for it it still doesn't fare that much better than other stamina types if you get tossed up against anything with decent attack.

Surprised that Dragooon+RDF isn't more popular at the moment, but eh.

Me too. I've been wondering if some sort of Dragooon + RDF variant would surpass L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF.

I'll third this notion, actually; MSF-H (Reviser/Saramanda/Dragooon) Dragooon BD145RDF sounds perfectly viable (pretty darn good, even).

MLD: Bracket MF/MF-H as optional IMO. W2D itself requires more testing in general IMO.

Gotcha about the Metal Faces, and I totally agree about W2D needing testing. I mostly mentioned it because I've noticed some good things with it, but I wanted to see if other people have noticed the same stuff before I put it on any sort of list.

And Flash MF - personally I don't think Orion is the only CW that can work. Escolpio's destabilising effect on taller opponents has been helpful to me when using AD145MF, though perhaps EDS affects that somewhat?

This is totally valid, and I hadn't honestly thought about the clear wheel destabilizing (but I can totally see it). I'll change my tier list to remove the distinction, and I'll take off Horogium.

Again, AD145 isn't ready to go yet. Yes, W145 works better but AD145 is still very, very viable.

Removing 230 but leaving TH170 up... Personally I do get much better performance from TH170 however a lot of people disagree (including basically everyone who is in a WBBA area), and it still places very regularly.

This is going to be a sticky spot to work with. Personally I felt the stamina list was getting more than a little out of control, and I feel like it's time for us to really pin down what should be considered "top tier" anymore. As such, I want to see AD145 removed and have W145 added, and I took down 230 seeing as TH170 offers almost identical performance with so much more versatility.

To help address your point of stuff not being "ready to go" yet, I recommend we keep an archive of previous tier lists like I had started to do in the public list discussion. That would allow us to immediately remove stuff like AD145 once we discovered there is a nearly strictly-better piece (W145) while still allowing the older piece to be shown as previously being top-tier.

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So, with some discussion being finalized, I'm proposing this for a final tier list:

PROPOSED TIER LIST v2

ATTACK

Flash

• Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces
  
• MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
  
• MF-H Flash ____ W145 MF

VariAres

• MF-H VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

---

DEFENSE

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Saggitario II, Hades
  
• MF-H Duo ____ BD145 (RB/RDF)
  
• MF-H Duo ____ E230 (RB/RS/RSF)

Reviser

• MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145 (CS/RB/RDF/RS)
  
• MSF-H Reviser Reviser E230 (CS/RB/RS/RSF)

---

STAMINA

Phantom

• Clear Wheels: Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Hades
  
• Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  
• Phantom ____ TH170 (D/SD)

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus
  
• Duo ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  
• Duo ____ TH170 (D/SD)

Dragooon

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD

Meteo L-Drago

• (MF/-H) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
  
• MF-H Meteo L-Drago TR145 EWD

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BALANCE

• (MF-H/MF-M) Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Gasher) 230 MB
  
• MF-H L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  
• MF-H Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) BD145 (RF/R2F)
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium (R145/TR145) (RF/R2F)

Changes:

• Removed Horogium from Flash (the other clear wheels are better)
  
• Changed the clear wheels for Flash MF to include more than just Orion
  
• Added CS to Reviser Reviser BD145
  
• Moved the entire Anti-Attack list to Balance
  
• Moved the entire Spin Stealer section to Stamina
  
• Added Gasher and Cancer to the clear wheels for Duo 230MB

I am seriously proposing this be submitted as the next tier list right now, format and everything. We need to get a list put up, and I want to say I've addressed almost everything in this iteration. If you guys have more disagreements please say so, but I think we should have something posted at least by the end of the week.

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

RE: RF Defense: Would like to see if Duo RF can outspin Revizer RB/RDF, but aside from that yeah, it could be left off Duo.
As I said, you're still looking for something different out of RF than I am, I'm focussing on its grip rather than any balance-type versatility. I'd propose sticking it on revizer as that would make the strongest defensive custom but with revizer's stamina I'd have to question whether it is worthwhile.

I disagree with listing RSF unless it performs particularly well with E230, its defense really isn't significantly better than CS and its stamina is significantly worse, and based on what I've heard of RB, RSF should be gone.

I always got good results with BD145EDS vs LDD/LDG BD145MF/ED145MF/JB (some things I was messing around with trying to find a good enough balance between survival and attack), but I don't have any Zero G parts yet soooo.

Just list Cancer, Gasher's only difference is a slight change in text.

Until we have an archival thing established, I strongly feel AD145 should be listed as it is still competitive.

230 absolutely must be listed for stamina, however.

I also disagree about Sagittario 2 on Duo for defense. It's not as heavy as Aquario/Bull and its stamina isn't any better than Aquario/Cygnus from the little testing we had, IIRC. Doesn't deserve to be up there.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I haven't actually read through Ingulit's proposal thoroughly, but one huge major concern for me and most people would be the lack of 230 for stamina. Many metas around the world have had great success with it. It's safe to say that ALL of TT oriented countries, with the addition of UK & Italy will prefer 230 over TH170 for stamina. It has been proven over and over via tournament results.

By browsing the winning combo's thread, it's actually becoming more evident that TH170 is losing its competitive hold for stamina. Iirc, it has been many months since we all see TH170's placement in a stamina combo. Sure, it has its purpose somewhere in attack types, which even then, it's becoming shadowed slowly with the newer releases of high track variants.

Back when the option of high tracks was only limited to 230 and TH170, comparing them would be like comparing Mac vs PC. It was a stalemate. Those days are behind us now. We should be at the stage where we test and compare those newer high track variants to 230 for stamina.

Now, for reasoning beyond me, other than preference and variety sake, and to accommodate other metas that still prefer TH170 (as rare as they are), it was decided to put both tracks down for stamina. So without further ado;

230 absolutely must be listed for stamina, however.

RE: RF Defense: Would like to see if Duo RF can outspin Revizer RB/RDF, but aside from that yeah, it could be left off Duo.
As I said, you're still looking for something different out of RF than I am, I'm focussing on its grip rather than any balance-type versatility. I'd propose sticking it on revizer as that would make the strongest defensive custom but with revizer's stamina I'd have to question whether it is worthwhile.

I'm certainly not trying to argue against RF being an amazing defense tip, I just think we should be looking at Duo differently from standard defense types. Again, the only reason that I can see us still having Duo on the list with Synchroms existing is because it has really good stamina; it's no secret that Synchroms have better pure defense. As such, I personally think that we should only list Duo defense customs that can take advantage of Duo's inherently great stamina (namely RDF and RB, but not CS since Flash would KO it too easily), as anything else would be better suited for Synchrom customs (including RF).

Putting RF on Reviser isn't a half bad idea, actually. Originally I didn't include it since I was trying to stick heavy RF stuff into the Anti-Attack category, but like you said, RF is indeed a great defense tip even without being used on an Anti-Attack custom. Again, like you said, the stamina will be the deciding factor there.

Random aside: What about R2F or even LRF for defense? I'd imagine R2F wouldn't have nearly enough stamina, but how does LRF fare on right-spin?

I disagree with listing RSF unless it performs particularly well with E230, its defense really isn't significantly better than CS and its stamina is significantly worse, and based on what I've heard of RB, RSF should be gone.

I actually really, really like it on E230 personally. I wouldn't compare it so directly with CS in terms of defensive power; it's not as good as RS, sure, but from what I've seen it's more comparable with RB and RDF, perhaps a bit worse. RSF does catch the tornado ridge, something RB sometimes has trouble doing. I am a big fan of E230(boost)RSF, anyway.

I always got good results with BD145EDS vs LDD/LDG BD145MF/ED145MF/JB (some things I was messing around with trying to find a good enough balance between survival and attack), but I don't have any Zero G parts yet soooo.

Those are some janky combos, haha! The main problem with BD145EDS is against a left-spin with a D variant, namely WD and EWD. When it gets down to the last few seconds of a battle, the left spin on the D tip will process and stay upright while the BD145EDS topples over and scrapes. You can see this with stuff like Meteo, not just Zero-G.

Just list Cancer, Gasher's only difference is a slight change in text.

It's actually a good bit heavier (mine is, anyway). They are different, and I'd really like it if people differentiated between them more often, but considering they're still basically interchangeable I can see an argument being made to only list one.

Until we have an archival thing established, I strongly feel AD145 should be listed as it is still competitive.

We can start the archive with this update! I'll be putting an archive in the public thread, anyway.

I also disagree about Sagittario 2 on Duo for defense. It's not as heavy as Aquario/Bull and its stamina isn't any better than Aquario/Cygnus from the little testing we had, IIRC. Doesn't deserve to be up there.

It's very much as heavy as Aquario/Bull! In fact, it's my heaviest clear wheel according to my penny scale (accurate down to a hundredth of a gram). Its stamina is definitely lacking compared to Aquario and Cygnus, but I wouldn't say it's any worse than, for example, Bull.

I haven't actually read through Ingulit's proposal thoroughly, but one huge major concern for me and most people would be the lack of 230 for stamina. Many metas around the world have had great success with it. It's safe to say that ALL of TT oriented countries, with the addition of UK & Italy will prefer 230 over TH170 for stamina. It has been proven over and over via tournament results.

By browsing the winning combo's thread, it's actually becoming more evident that TH170 is losing its competitive hold for stamina. Iirc, it has been many months since we all see TH170's placement in a stamina combo. Sure, it has its purpose somewhere in attack types, which even then, it's becoming shadowed slowly with the newer releases of high track variants.

Back when the option of high tracks was only limited to 230 and TH170, comparing them would be like comparing Mac vs PC. It was a stalemate. Those days are behind us now. We should be at the stage where we test and compare those newer high track variants to 230 for stamina.

Now, for reasoning beyond me, other than preference and variety sake, and to accommodate other metas that still prefer TH170 (as rare as they are), it was decided to put both tracks down for stamina. So without further ado;

230 absolutely must be listed for stamina, however.

That all makes perfect sense, and I am totally fine with putting 230 back on the list! I mostly wanted to take as much off the lists as I could so we could discuss each part and put them back on the list slowly, such that we only have the absolute best-of-the-best on there. This is the kind of conversation I was hoping for!

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

Duo RF Reviserkay, I agree with what you've said about Duo and RF and Reviser.
R2F: R2F and LRF have less surface area than RF, despite their greater traction, at least for me, I have more trouble with them being KO'd as a result of recoil.

RSF: In that case RSF can stay then, though I would like to see some in depth comparative tests before next update, as I'm still not convinced it has the Defense required to be on Duo, at least.

BD145EDS: In that case, given how common they are right now, I agree it should go, and of course it will be archived.

Cancer/Gasher: On reweighing mine (rather than rechecking my post) Gasher is slightly heavier, but the performance difference should be unnoticeable, at least too small to test without testers expectations playing a role subconsciously. We've always assumed that unless otherwise mentioned, parts which are listed refer to their alternate hasbro counterparts.

AD145: I'll yield for the sake of getting this update done and because Samurai Ifraid has had about a bajillion releases now, and because of your Archival thing.

Sagittario II: Mine's lighter than even my Legend Series Bull, which is the lightest of my Aquarios and Bulls. Most weights reflect this. For the time being, we should leave it off, as the list is already long, Bull itself should probably be removed as it is, and it's like .05g heavier at most than my Cancers.

Format: I strongly agree that the format should be changed, particularly for the track/tip split. However, I'm not going to wait for Kei to stop being silly about it with the tier list being so out of date, so here's a non split version of Ingulit's tier list with any agreed-upon changes made so we can actually get this up.

I am adamant the next update will split the different combos for the same wheels, seeing as there's a basic consensus that it should happen by everyone who has posted apart from Kei, and if he's not able to put aside his own personal concerns against a clear consensus then he clearly lacks the objectivity required to have his already large say in the process.

ATTACK

• Metal Face-Heavy Flash Escolpio/Orion/Pisces CH120/S130/GB145/H145/W145 RF/R2F/MF
  
• Metal Face-Heavy VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus/Hades BD145/E230 RB/RDF/RS/RSF
  
• Metal Stone Face-Heavy Revizer Revizer BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS/RSF
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Cancer/Cygnus/Hades W145/TH170/230 D/EWD/SD/SWD/WD
  
• Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus/Hades W145/TH170/230 D/EWD/PD/SD/SWD/WD
  
• (Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy) Meteo L Drago CH120/TR145 EWD
  
• Metal Stone Face/Metal Stone Face-Heavy Revizer Dragooon SA165EWD
  

BALANCE

• (Metal Face-Heavy/Metal Face-Middle) Duo Cygnus/Cancer 230 MB
  
• Metal Face-Heavy L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 RF/R2F
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Horogium R145/TR145 RF/R2F
  

Stuff not on here that has been discussed previously and should be discussed heavily for next update: Duo Cygnus 160PD/D, 160 for Stamina (D on Phantom, PD/D on Duo?), SA165 for Defense/Stamina, Killerken for Defense and whatever else, W2D, Gravity Perseus BD145RDF, and other things that haven't had quite as much discussion here but have in the public thread or anything else I forgot (sorry, writing the list in this horrible messy format is as exhausting as reading it).

Anyway, unless anyone has major concerns can we all agree and update this darned thing finally?

Once that's sorted we can discuss all these formatting things without the pressure of needing to update immediately.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I like it, let's put it up!

---

So, after we post the list, I say we take some time to put some things to a vote, taking a few days to focus on a single topic before moving to vote on a new one. I'm thinking 3-4 days per topic, and I think I'll make a new thread for each topic so we can have a poll and stuff (anyone can vote on the polls which may or may not be a good thing). I'll post a thread with the topic ideas I have after we update the list (I don't want to bog down discussion before we get the list posted).

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

Anyway, unless anyone has major concerns can we all agree and update this darned thing finally?

Once that's sorted we can discuss all these formatting things without the pressure of needing to update immediately.

Advanced forum (esp. Kei) r u there dude

people look up to you

EDIT: Oh hey Hazel, any thoughts on the tier list? I mean I know you can't test right now but based on what you've read, or any experience you do have that is relevant, do you have any thoughts? It would be good, you see, this post is worded as such to highlight how ridiculous the inactivity of most members of this forum is, and how tiresome it becomes for those of us who are active. So some input would be really nice.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I have no particular objections to the combinations suggested in the list given my limited knowledgebase, but I would rather see it go up after adding the subcategories being discussed elsewhere.

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Some manner of Octopus.

Perhaps, but that is still ongoing and the list hasn't been updated since Zero-G's start, so it would be nice to have it updated first. That way, we can have more time to properly discuss the categories to be used rather than rushing things.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

The list has been updated! I promised that we would at least get an updated list of what is generally agreed upon this weekend, so here we are. I also added a section called "Previous Lists" ... I'm not sure why we didn't do this before!

Changes to Inguilit's list:
- Added 230 for Duo and Phantom
- Removed Sagittario II from Duo for Defense. There doesn't seem to be any type of consensus yet regarding it's addition for this purpose.
- All instances of "Cancer, Gasher" have been changed to "Cancer/Gasher"

And just a few questions on things I'm not sure of myself:
- Hades for Defense?
- Why no RDF for E230?
- In theory, I've always loved Basalt RF combinations, but I've never really heard of them being put to good use in competitive situations/placing with any sort of consistency. Now, I'm not suggesting that they are bad simply because they often ever place, but are we sure that these types of combinations really have a place in the metagame right now? Why, for example, would you use a Basalt RF combination over Diablo BD145RF?

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Yay, thankyou. Great to see you've accepted the split as being helpful to the game.

I made a couple of small alterations in my edit, but then many of those were only possible because of the merge.

Yeah I strongly disagree with adding Sagittario 2, it's only close to bull which is the worst thing on that list. I'd rather have the stamina provided by Cancer than a meagre .1 of a gram at most (and usually even less) which is around 0.1% of a defensive beyblade's weight - cancer will give you noticeably better results against things while more weight won't.
Hades for defense I'm not sure about as I don't have one to weigh, but its stamina seems solid from everything I've read about it, and I'm very much of the opinion, as you can see, that stamina clear wheels on defensive beys is a good idea.

RDF for E230, Ingulit said it scraped too much, though I think it could be listed until we can say it is definitely inferior to another option.

I think it is used for its superior stamina, especially with TR145 which apparently has great synergy with it. Plus I imagine its compactness makes up for the weight at high speeds.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I posted this in the public discussion not to long ago, but I figure it probably also belongs here. This is nearly verbatim, hence the overly detailed explanations for this group, haha. I'd love some critique!

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So, it's been quite a long time since this has seen an update, and I think it's about time to start discussing the next iteration! I'll go on ahead a post a working list that I'd love critique on.

I want to put Meow!'s anti-meta custom Death Escolpio 90RF on here somewhere, but I have no clue where lol

Black - These customs stay the same as the last list.
Red - These customs would be removed from the last list.
Green - These customs would be added from the last list.
Blue - These are my comments on this working list.

ATTACK

Flash
Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces, Beelzeb, Ionis

1. MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
   
2. MF-H Flash ____ W145 MF

Explanations (Click to View)

1) Even in a world of Synchrom, Flash is still one of the great attack wheels in our metagame. The only changes I made were to add two clear wheels: Ionis, since its shape and weight distribution fit Flash well, and Beelzeb, which I am thoroughly convinced is the single best clear wheel for Flash available. All that said, now that Synchrom attackers have been discovered, Flash is standing on somewhat thinner ice, though I don't see it going down any time soon.

2) This Flash custom does have some of the best stamina of competitive right-spin attackers, and it's worth noting that Flash's stamina might be the main thing that keeps it on the competitive list.

VariAres

1. MF-H VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Explanations (Click to View)

It's time to say goodbye to an old friend. This ol' guy barely held on to be on the last competitive list thanks to its dual-spin abilities, but in the aforementioned Synchrom meta it's just too light and too recoil-prone to be effective despite this single advantage. Thus, VariAres gets some much needed rest.

Wyvang

1. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/??145) (RF/R2F)
   
2. (MSF-H) Wyvang Dragooon SA165[Attack] R2F

Explanations (Click to View)

1: It's Wyvang Wyvang. Does it need more of an explanation, lol? It's got stadium-wall-shattering power (as I found out first hand), controllable recoil, and it works on just about any 145-height track (it needs more testing to find out which ones other than GB145). If you're a bey staring down this sucker, good luck staying in the stadium, haha! If you're an attack enthusiast, nabbing two Wyvangs or two Balros is an excellent idea.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MSF-H-Wy...inHighwind

2: I absolutely love this custom. It's unique, it's fun, and it works. It's one of the best left-spin attackers in the meta IMO, and thus I'd say it's competitive.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Wyvang-D...-SA165-R2F

Balro

1. (MSF-H) Balro Balro CH120 R2F

Explanations (Click to View)

Balro and Wyvang are, by the tests that I've seen, the current kings of right-spin attack. Balro is especially notable in this custom in how well it does against E230, which as of right now is probably the best overall defense track. This custom is in need of some more testing by more users, but the numbers that are there are seriously impressive.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Balro-Balro-CH120R2F

Bahamdia

1. MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165 (RF/R2F)

Explanations (Click to View)

I'll take this opportunity to use awesome elementary-school language techniques: Bahamdia is to Wyvang/Balro as Blitz is to Flash. That is to say, this isn't in any way a BAD attacker, but Wyvang/Balro have more raw power. This has some niche advantages though (it's super heavy for whatever that is useful for, and it's got a very unique height for attackers), and it has rather competitive smash. Is that enough to justify a spot next to the two other resident right-spin Synchroms? Maybe, maybe not; that's what this thread is for! (Meow!, if you're reading this, I'd love to hear your opinion, haha!)

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DEFENSE

NOTE: SP230 (Click to View)

I erred on the side of caution and did not include SP230 on this list because I kept getting conflicting results from different users (and my own testing) as to whether or not it's actually good for defense. I also had no clue what tips are good on SP230 (if any).

Duo
Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer/Gasher, Cygnus, Hades

1. MF-H Duo ____ BD145 (RB/RDF)
   
2. MF-H Duo ____ E230 (RB/RS/RSF/RDF)

Explanations (Click to View)

Yep, Duo is hanging onto the competitive list like a rusty fishhook. I can totally see justification in taking this down in the face of Synchroms, but its stamina is reallllly nice and its shape is still phenomenal. I'd say Duo deserves another go on the list.

Scythe
Clear Wheels: Kronos, Uranus, Pisces

1. MF-H Scythe ____ 85 RS

Explanations (Click to View)

I had to do it. This custom does well against a large portion of the attack meta (larger now thanks to Synchrom attackers) despite its ridiculously light weight. This is about as much of a defense custom as a defense custom can be: it has pitiful stamina, it is weak to left-spin, but it's hard as heck to KO with modern attackers. This is very much an anti-meta custom, and in my opinion it is a very competitive one.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MF-H-Scy...ed-6-12-12

Right-Spin Synchrom
TOP Chrome Wheels: Reviser, Killerken
BOT Chrome Wheels: Reviser, Killerken

1. MSF-H [BOT] [TOP] BD145 (CS/RB/RDF/RS)
   
2. MSF-H [BOT] [TOP] E230 (CS/RB/RS/RSF/RDF)

Explanations (Click to View)

The first thing I need to mention is that this format is just something I thought of off the top of my head, and if anyone can recommend something better please post it!

Now onto the content. This list is actually not that different from the previous one, except where the old one only contained Reviser, this one has room for any chrome wheel that's good in a defense Synchrom. While I did not have a left-spin counterpart, I named this section "Right-Spin Synchrom" to make the list more accepting of Dragooon-based defense types if some are notable (but missing).

Some chrome wheels I considered but require discussion: Genbull, Gargole, Dragooon (on bottom), Saramanda, Wyvang

---

STAMINA

Phantom

1. Clear Wheels: Cancer/Gasher, Cygnus, Hades
   
2. Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
   
3. Phantom ____ TH170 (D/SD/TB)
   
4. Phantom ____ (LW160/160) PD
   
5. Phantom ____ SR200 TB
   
6. Phantom ____ 230 (D/SD)

Duo

1. Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer/Gasher, Cygnus
   
2. Duo ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
   
3. Duo ____ TH170 (D/SD/TB)
   
4. Duo ____ (LW160/160) PD
   
5. Duo ____ SR200 TB
   
6. Duo ____ 230 (D/SD)

Explanations (Click to View)

Duo and Phantom are both still dominant Stamina forces in the meta and likely will be for a long time to come. The only changes I made were to add two track/tip customs:

(LW160/160) PD:
This is based on my own testing and it works ridiculously well for me. However, there have been few other users who have backed up my results, so this might not be able to go on the list until that happens.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Duo-Cygnus-160PD

TH170 TB:
SR200 TB:
KainHighwind first clued me into these setups, and I absolutely love both of them. TB is a strangely awesome stamina part on the right tracks, and it's definitely a competitive tip in my opinion. SR200 is also probably good with other standard tips, but TB is the main notable one.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Genbull-...SR200TB-CS

Genbull

1. Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
   
2. Genbull Genbull TH170 TB

Explanations (Click to View)

We finally have a competitive Synchrom stamina type!!

1. This was the original custom, and both TB and CS work well. CS is particularly noteworthy since it gives the custom a moderate level of defense as well.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Genbull-...SR200TB-CS

2. This is just a variant that utilizes TH170, though now that I think about it, this might have only been tested informally... It's my current favorite stamina custom by a mile, but I don't remember if the results got posted or not. I'll try and find them, but until then, take this with a grain of salt.

Dragooon

1. MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165 (EWD/RDF)

Explanations (Click to View)

This custom is still kicking around as one of the dominant spin-stealers, but recently theblackdragon showed that RDF is a very competitive option as well. Originally I was going to put the RDF variant in Balance since its primary purpose is to add defense, but I figured it would be fine here.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Reviser-...ormal-mode

Meteo L-Drago

1. (MF/-H) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
   
2. MF-H Meteo L-Drago TR145 EWD

Explanations (Click to View)

Yet again, we have to say goodbye to an old friend. Now that Dragooon is very much a thing, we can't really say a sub-40g wheel is supposed to be as good as its Zero-G older brother anymore.

---

BALANCE

1. MF-H L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
   -=-
   
2. (MF-H/MF-M) Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Gasher) 230 MB
   -=-
   
3. MF-H Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) BD145 (RF/R2F)
   -=-
   
4. MF-H Basalt Horogium (R145/TR145) (RF/R2F)
   -=-
   
5. MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF
   -=-
   
6. MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF
   -=-
   
7. MSF(-H) Gryph Gryph E230BSF
   -=-
   
8. MSF-H Bahamdia Dragooon SP230GF

Explanations (Click to View)

1) This custom needs to be taken off simply because it has been heavily outclassed by much heavier (and more effective) Dragooon variants.

2) This is still a phenomenal custom, but its weakness to left-spin is really starting to hurt in this meta. That said, this custom will likely stay competitive for a long while.

3) Diablo continues to be one of the best Anti-Attack wheels out there, and this certainly remains a fearsome custom. Like Duo 230MB, this baby will be on this list for a good time yet.

4) This custom is on very, VERY shaky ground. While it continues to put up decent numbers, it can't be denied that it's one of the lighter customs on this list (which sounds so weird lol). I haven't yet seen anything that is so strictly better than it yet to take it off the list, but it could easily jump off at the drop of a hat.

5) For a long time I've been one of the few advocating this custom, and slowly but surely it has been cropping up in the Winning Customs thread in some notable tournaments. I've always thought this was competitive, and now I feel there is enough real weight to that claim to warrent a spot on this list.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MF-L-Pha...o-Revisted

6) This is a staple custom. I don't know much more to say about this other than this is a custom you could solo a tournament with. It's good.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MSF-H-Wy...n-BD145RDF

7) This is such a cool combo, and it's showing up in Winning Customs more and more nowadays; enough, IMO, to be on the list, though it's so non-standard that it'd be on shaky-ish ground.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MSF-Gryph-Gryph-E230BSF

8) This custom is so weird, haha; it's hard as heck to master, but those who have all say this is ridiculously good. I'm terrible with it myself, but it has some awesome numbers backing it up, enough that I think it might deserve a go on the list.
Thread: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MSF-H-Dr...on-SP230GF

---

4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

I don't see anything change-wise I know about and disagree with, but I'd question RDF on a stamina combo - that's balance. I'm not really up to date at all, but I definitely agree with the removals.
As for meow's combo, if it does things multiple types do, balance. If it just takes hits well, defense. Haven't read the thread though.

As a side note, I'm surprised Diablo is still around, expected synchromes to wipe it right off the map (especially with what I heard about wyvern), but it does still seem to do fine in tournaments so I guess I was wrong, haha.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I don't see anything change-wise I know about and disagree with, but I'd question RDF on a stamina combo - that's balance.

Yeah, that's valid. They were otherwise mirror combos so I lumped them together, but technically it is much more of a balance. (As a side note, this is why we might need a "left spin" section; I don't want to call it "spin stealer" since basically everything in this meta spins left, haha)

As for meow's combo, if it does things multiple types do, balance. If it just takes hits well, defense. Haven't read the thread though.

It's an "anti-meta" custom, but it requires an obscene amount of skill and it's otherwise extremely light. I love the custom, but I'm not unsure if it's list level given the aforementioned issues.

As a side note, I'm surprised Diablo is still around, expected synchromes to wipe it right off the map (especially with what I heard about wyvern), but it does still seem to do fine in tournaments so I guess I was wrong, haha.

Er, Wyvang? Yeah, Wyvang basically eats everything lol

Diablo is still one of the best anti-attack wheels. It's got comparable-ish weight to Synchroms, and it has really stood the test of time. Basalt is more what I'm concerned about, though it's still putting up good numbers.

---

4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

Probably worth changing the name, then.

Anti-meta says nothing much to me. The criteria I listed should work for any combo though, if it is competitive in the first place.

D'oh HMS on the brain.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Anti-meta says nothing much to me. The criteria I listed should work for any combo though, if it is competitive in the first place.

Give 'er a look, it's a fun read, haha! http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Anti-Met...ttack-Mode

My primary concern is that while this did well against the ideal meta AT THE TIME, I'm not sure if the meta has evolved in a way that is favorable to the custom (maybe, maybe not, literally don't know lol).

---

4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

From the Public Discussion thread:

Anywho, about a final draft, does anyone actually object to anything on this?

Spoiler (Click to View)

Attack

Wyvang

1. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)
2. Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Zero-G attack mode) (R2F/RF/LRF)

Spoiler (Click to View)

These combos have both put up stunning results against some tough defenders, here and here.

Balro

1. Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)

Spoiler (Click to View)

Although Balro has not been formally tested with these exact tracks, it's put up great results with the same heights in this thread. W145 is obviously the superior substitute for CH145 if you don't want the height-change function. I found GB145 and MSF-H to slow this down a bit much for my taste...

Flash

1. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)
2. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) W145MF

Spoiler (Click to View)

Although its weight can be a bit of a problem in some scenarios, flash does have relatively low recoil, and its speed and controllability can be advantageous. It's smash is very viable as well, hitting up to 60-70% against Revizer, as well as pulling higher numbers than any Synchrom attacker against the ever popular Duo defenders. I mean, come on, it's flash...

---

Defense

Duo

1. MF-H Duo (Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)

Spoiler (Click to View)

Duo is just amazing... it's got more stamina than any other defensive wheel out there, and yet it can still pull some of the highest numbers against the new Synchrom attacker.

Reviser/Killerken

1. MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Revizer/Killerken BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
2. MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)

Spoiler (Click to View)

Both of the Chrome Wheels have put up and still put up amazing results against traditional attackers in the past, and nothing seems to have topped them yet, so...

Genbull

1. MSF-H Genbull/Revizer Genbull BD145 (RDF/RB)

Spoiler (Click to View)

No one seemed to pay much attention to it, but when Genbull was first tested for defense, it put up numbers 50% higher than Reviser against Flash. From testing Both Formal and informal, I have found it to be absolutely amazing on BD145. Although it doesn't seem to perform well on CS or E230, it can be an amazing mid-height defender. Check out some formal results here and here.

Scythe

1. MF-H Scythe ______ 85RS

Spoiler (Click to View)

This thing is amazing... although it seems a bit, well, weird, it's put up some startling results against incredibly powerful attack types here and here.

---

Stamina

Duo

1. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) 230 (D/SD)
3. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) TH170 (D/SD)
4. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) SR200TB
5. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) 160PD

Spoiler (Click to View)

It's Duo... it just totally rocks. The only thing that can come close to matching this wheel IMO is Genbull.

Genbull

1. Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
2. Genbull Genbull TH170TB

Spoiler (Click to View)

Genbull has put up some impressive numbers used in stamina combinations here and here...

Phantom

1. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)

Spoiler (Click to View)

These combos are continuing to succeed in events as I have heard, and although its recoil can produce a huge issue in certain circumstances, you just can't ignore Phantom's amazing endurance capabilities, putting up far higher solo spin times than any other wheel released so far.

Dragooon

1. (MSF-H) Reviser Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) EWD

Spoiler (Click to View)

This thing rocks... it takes down pretty much anything using right rotation (save most attackers). It's Precession and LAD are incredible. Check it out here.

---

Balance

1. MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF

Spoiler (Click to View)

This combo continues to succeed against so many combos I can't keep count. Just the pure spin time alone is enough to impress me...

2. MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF

Spoiler (Click to View)

This combo is still a great counter to most attack types, and it can still produce very, very viable results against stamina types as well. I see no reason to leave it off of the list.

3. (MF-H/MF-M) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus) 230MB

Spoiler (Click to View)

This combo is still dominant in specific areas, and continues to put up stunning results against most of the new combos we have been testing. This one's definitely a keeper.

4. MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF

Spoiler (Click to View)

This combo is pretty decent. Not one of my favorites, but you really can't ignore the results it's been able to put up. This thing can pretty much force smash the polycarbonate out of anything below 160. Tests are here.

5. MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF

Spoiler (Click to View)

This thing is absolutely beast in every way, shape, and form... this is one of my favorite combos of all time. Check it out here.

6. MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF

Spoiler (Click to View)

I've tried this a LOT against just about everything, and so far, it's completely stomped anything remotely related to attack. Check it out here.

7. Reviser Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) RDF

Spoiler (Click to View)

I like this combo... it's a nice variation of spin equalizer, with the added defense to back it up against right-spin attackers. Check out the results here.

8. Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF

Spoiler (Click to View)

This combo has put up some viable numbers as a balance type, and seems to be a popular combo among the users I've discussed it with... so, up it goes! Check out the testing here.

As I stated in the public discussion, I like this list well enough.

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

For Attack, do you think that Bahamdia Ifraid is viable? Or Bahamdia Dragooon. I remember testing both on SA165 R2F/RF and thinking that it wasn't terribly consistent against BD145, but Bahamdia is such an intensely aggressive Wheel that I think it deserves some consideration/further testing. Perhaps that's something to figure out for future updates, though.

- MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)

RS on E230? Really?

- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario)

I think maybe we can take Aquario off the list if we're certain that the other Clear Wheels are better? We don't have to list everything that is remotely competitive.

- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) SR200TB
- Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
- Genbull Genbull TH170TB

Can somebody summarize why these are good? I'm generally not a fan of TB, so I'd like to know how this one works and what it is good against. From the tests you've linked to for the Genbull versions, it doesn't seem that good, imo. And I noticed that nobody tested it against Duo SA165EWD. Speaking of which … where the hell is Duo SA165EWD on this list?! I can't believe it was excluded. It will be added.

- Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)

I'm having a hard time understanding why this is listed. It's not bad, but it's also far to vulnerable against too many things with it's height in combination with the recoil Phantom suffers from. Even TH170 is a bit iffy, but it's not as bad as 230 for this combo in my opinion. Having TH170 listed is good enough, because yes, we can't disregard how great Phantom's Stamina is.

- MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF

What an odd–yet interesting!–combo. However, again I notice that it hasn't been tested against Duo SA165EWD. This combo is more important than I think you guys are giving it credit for. Since this can "force smash the polycarbonate out of anything below 160", I do wonder how it would do against SA165.

Finally, I think that Dragooon and Duo B:D and F230 CF/GCF should be added. Any particular reason why they haven't been added?

---

All this is from what I have tested:

For Attack, do you think that Bahamdia Ifraid is viable? Or Bahamdia Dragooon. I remember testing both on SA165 R2F/RF and thinking that it wasn't terribly consistent against BD145, but Bahamdia is such an intensely aggressive Wheel that I think it deserves some consideration/further testing. Perhaps that's something to figure out for future updates, though.

- MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)

RS on E230? Really?

RS gets worn really quick on heavy combinations which I dislike, but it also doesn't work too well. As soon as something heavy knocks it off balance, that's basically it for E230RS.

- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario)

I think maybe we can take Aquario off the list if we're certain that the other Clear Wheels are better? We don't have to list everything that is remotely competitive.

Aquario absorbs shock well in combinations such as: BD145 RDF/RSF/etc. to higher heights like W145R2F because of its bulkiness. I quite like it so I say we keep it on there.

- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) SR200TB
- Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
- Genbull Genbull TH170TB

Can somebody summarize why these are good? I'm generally not a fan of TB, so I'd like to know how this one works and what it is good against. From the tests you've linked to for the Genbull versions, it doesn't seem that good, imo. And I noticed that nobody tested it against Duo SA165EWD.

I've tested Duo and Genbull Genbull SR200TB, and I'd say that it's a decent addition. But frankly, i've noticed it has a lot of trouble with stamina combos such as Duo. Its grinding capabilities is niche though.

- Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)

I'm having a hard time understanding why this is listed. It's not bad, but it's also far to vulnerable against too many things with it's height in combination with the recoil Phantom suffers from. Even TH170 is a bit iffy, but it's not as bad as 230 for this combo in my opinion. Having TH170 listed is good enough, because yes, we can't disregard how great Phantom's Stamina is.

I never liked that combo. It has a lot of balancing issues and is vulnerable to easy KOes to basically anything with decent weight and a fast attack-oriented tip.

Plus that mode has more recoil than the other, correct? A half to a third of the time it will end up facing something lower than what it is.

- MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF

What an odd–yet interesting!–combo. However, again I notice that it hasn't been tested against Duo SA165EWD. This combo is more important than I think you guys are giving it credit for. Since this can "force smash the polycarbonate out of anything below 160", I do wonder how it would do against SA165.

That combo is very nice, and has great stamina + lasts very long within the battles. But it seems to lose a lot form what I've tested, such as with Duo W145_D.

Finally, I think that Dragooon and Duo B and F230 CF/GCF should be added. Any particular reason why they haven't been added?

Dragooon B is a yes. Phantom F230 CF/GCF (CF works x10 better since it's slower and smoother) is a great combination from what i've tested. It wins 90% of the time against Stamina and obviously Defense. Attack I have yet to test.

---

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I don't have many ZG wheels, but here's my 2c:

From what I've played around with RS isn't really any worse on E230 than it is on anything else, really. It's not a very practical part right now as Attack isn't dominant (back when it came out and wrecked a massive chunk of the metagame (the "right spin aggro wheel" chunk to which a tonne of early wheels belonged), it was a different matter entirely IMO but yeah), but I think everyone understands that it is only to be used against Rubber-tipped Attack, so unless there is a popular rubber tipped attack setup from ZG that outspins it on a certain setup, I still think it deserves a spot because it is still the hardest tip to KO overall.

I vote for taking Aquario off. It's very clearly inferior in terms of stamina (which is important for every duo combo) and Cancer performs perfectly fine, sometimes even really well against taller opponents already - whereas my experience with aquario in this respect (a sizeable amount, albeit from the time of the maximum series or thereabouts) is just that it "is okay" against taller opponents - which is nice but certainly no reason to keep it up here. Aquario's removal is long, long overdue IMO, and to be honest I find it weird that it has remained so long, given Aquario's inferiority for survival is one of the few things about CW survival performance we have managed to establish to a good extent.
Though that is just for stamina, for defense it should stay due to its weight and the fact it is still decent (and people should be able to gather from it not being listed for anything else that its stamina isn't comparable to other options there), though I personally prefer to go with the best clear wheel stamina wise for defense as the additional weight of the CW probably isn't going to make that big a difference, even with Duo being as light as it is.

I recall Phantom 230D doing well in a few metagames (UK and maybe Indo). In general it works nicely enough for me but then my Phantom has a record of being unusually good against my Duo and I don't have many ZG's to test balancey stuff against it, but at the least with my phantom it seems viable enough, hah. I personally prefer TH170 to 230 on the combo though (I generally prefer TH170 over 230 for everything), but again we have to be mindful that there are areas where no one will touch TH170 if 230 is available and they seem to get results to back it up...

As for TB, it was pretty widely accepted that it worked really well at least in particular setups, so it shouldn't be hard to find info/testing to back that up - there was a pretty clear consensus amongst a bunch of members whose opinions I respect on it being competitive, at least.

I might be remembering wrong but isn't killerken also viable in place of Reviser in Dragooon spin-stealers etc? Also curious about Genbull for the same but I guess this isn't the place, haha.

Also, perhaps I missed stuff but is there a reason only SA165 is being used for Dragooon RDF, i.e. BD145 not being there any more? As I recall SA165 has less defense which I would think could be a problem (especially as RDF is doing most of the late-game survival in that setup anyway). Perhaps I'm wrong, though, I don't have much experience with the setup.


Lastly, I do see one thing on that list I don't agree with: Scythe 85RS: With so many Dragooon (i.e. left spin) setups running around (especially ones that have good precession/round-ish lower parts), which generally cause it a tonne of trouble, I really have to question its viability.


EDIT: Woah hey just noticed something

Dragooon B: D : Everything I've done with Revizer Dragooon B: D has indicated it is little more than an inferior version of SA165EWD, because it can't handle opposing EWD setups at all well - MF-M Duo Cancer AD145EWD, for example (IIRC MF-M Basalt Kerbecs SA165EWD did well against it, though I only have the one SA165 so I can't do a proper comparison)
No full tests but I can do tests of it vs the duo combo tomorrow, if need be, because I really do not think this belongs on the list. Unlike Duo and Death, Dragooon setups do not have the roundness or natural stamina to pull of a B: D setup in BB-10, or at least not one which holds a candle to Dragooon SA165EWD.
I feel like there's way too much hype about this spilling over from Zero-G where B: D is an asset rather than a liability.
Honestly it's kinda weird seeing you talk about Duo SA165EWD being overlooked and then proposing this be added, seeing as I have always felt people overlooking SA165EWD's combination of excellent regular stamina and even better precession ability was a big reason behind Dragooon B: D being considered competitive by some.

tl;dr: Strong Objection to Dragooon B: D being added, based on experience with it and most relevant parts.

Duo B: D: The presence of Dragooon SA165EWD probably justifies this, but I am generally iffy about promoting B: D for stamina at all - it's never been good enough to make the list based on straight stamina (IIRC TH170 was the largest contributor to that, both as a comparison and a direct opponent) (a lot of people put it down to it being too easy to KO but that was never the basis of my belief about it not deserving a spot), but I guess it's just a matter of making sure that the fact its straight stamina is not that great is made clear in Beywiki whenever this comes up there. I'd still like to see Comparisons of this and SA165EWD, personally, but whatever.

Obviously I am also 100% behind adding Duo SA165EWD to the list, and I would also suggest maybe adding MF-M as an option there - the same reason it works on 230MB applies here, in general it helps a lot with staying upright, which means less getting under opponents and being toppled while wobbling late in the match, which seems even more relevant with the number of spin stealers around now. I think Uwik was a proponent of this in general as well, but perhaps we were just talking specifically about 230mb. Haven't had much from it on phantom at least in terms of pure stamina though, seeing as phantoms thing is its obscenely good weight distribution which that interferes with a lot more (phantom being a lot more prone to that than Duo as seen with clear wheels).

SA165 seems to be missing from stamina in general. Everything I've done with it has pointed to it being excellent though I lack W145, I rather like it on Phantom where it helps with the recoil a bit.

Would like to see MSF-M tested on the Dragooon setups (including dragooon b: d), too.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

For Attack, do you think that Bahamdia Ifraid is viable? Or Bahamdia Dragooon. I remember testing both on SA165 R2F/RF and thinking that it wasn't terribly consistent against BD145, but Bahamdia is such an intensely aggressive Wheel that I think it deserves some consideration/further testing. Perhaps that's something to figure out for future updates, though.

I'm actually still a huge proponent of at least MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F being on the list, TBH; I had it in my draft, but it fell to the wayside in the public discussion a bit. I still think it's a powerhouse, and should DEFINITELY be looked into for the next list at the latest.

- MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)

RS on E230? Really?

I actually really like RS on E230, namely in boost mode. The combination of the high center of gravity with the raw grip and stationary movement pattern of RS make E230[boost]RS combos especially difficult to KO. I loved MF-H Duo __ E230[boost]RS back before Reviser became a thing since its stamina and raw defense enabled it to take out all Flash variants other than MF-H Flash __ W145MF really consistently.

th!nk put the argument for RS really well in his post above, and I agree with what he said there.

- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario)

I think maybe we can take Aquario off the list if we're certain that the other Clear Wheels are better? We don't have to list everything that is remotely competitive.

I agree with what th!nk said about this completely, especially that it is bad for the stamina list (there are better options) but fine for the defense list (it's still over 3.2g and is well balanced, though I'd still use Cygnus on a defense custom first all day every day). See his post above.

- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) SR200TB
- Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
- Genbull Genbull TH170TB

Can somebody summarize why these are good? I'm generally not a fan of TB, so I'd like to know how this one works and what it is good against. From the tests you've linked to for the Genbull versions, it doesn't seem that good, imo. And I noticed that nobody tested it against Duo SA165EWD.

I didn't believe it myself when KainHighwind first told me it was good for stamina; I imagined that TB would just be another WB like tip, which is to say it wouldn't find a home. Upon testing it, though, I realized I was very, very wrong; it's good on the right setup, showing both D's ability to right itself and MB's ability to spin at crazy steep angles. Genbull Genbull TH170TB is far and away my favorite stamina custom right now; I love having an endurance bey that weighs as much as a truck yet can still take down MF-M Duo Cygnus 230MB with ease.

Speaking of which … where the hell is Duo SA165EWD on this list?! I can't believe it was excluded. It will be added.

Make that custom a thread!!! It's long overdue, considering how often it is in the winning customs thread.

The main reason this hasn't been on many list drafts is, IMO, the fact that is stamina isn't actually that great compared to other top tier stamina Beyblades. Since I've been trying it again recently I'm really unimpressed with its stamina; almost all other pure stamina customs I throw against it have no trouble OSing it, though its stamina isn't horrible by any means. Its ability to tackle Dragooon is extremely relevant, though, and that combined with its ability to handle defense customs (like any stamina Beyblade worth its weight in salt) is enough to warrant a spot IMO.

Side note: has anyone tried Death on this custom yet?

- Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)

I'm having a hard time understanding why this is listed. It's not bad, but it's also far to vulnerable against too many things with it's height in combination with the recoil Phantom suffers from. Even TH170 is a bit iffy, but it's not as bad as 230 for this combo in my opinion. Having TH170 listed is good enough, because yes, we can't disregard how great Phantom's Stamina is.

I've been pulling for 230 being taken off the stamina list for a long time, lol! IMO TH170 does its job but better outside of very specific customs like MF-M Duo Cygnus 230MB. It's especially bad on Phantom, which cannot do the whole "lololol I'm spinning almost horizontally but still not scraping" thing that Duo does on that track. I'd take Phantom TH195 over Phantom 230 any day of the week.

- MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF

What an odd–yet interesting!–combo. However, again I notice that it hasn't been tested against Duo SA165EWD. This combo is more important than I think you guys are giving it credit for. Since this can "force smash the polycarbonate out of anything below 160", I do wonder how it would do against SA165.

This custom certainly is odd, lol; despite its quirks, though, it has helped some people place with it in the past, which shouldn't be totally overlooked. Is it list worthy? Maybe, maybe not, but it IS surprisingly good, haha!

I'd say that the reason this custom wasn't tested against that is primarily due to Duo SA165EWD not being a well-known thing when that custom was first being tested. Again, it would be great to see Duo SA165EWD get a thread with how much it's popping up in the Winning Customs thread where we can test stuff like this.

Finally, I think that Dragooon and Duo B and F230 CF/GCF should be added. Any particular reason why they haven't been added?

I was wondering about F230(CF/GCF); it certainly seems to be popular. I wish it was easier to get one's hands on an orange F230 (not that a part's availability would keep it off of a list like this if it really is that good).

As far as B: D goes, I'm with th!nk in that it is probably justified on Duo anymore, but it's not fantastic on Dragooon compared to other options. I also am a proponent for Death B: D, but that's another story (I like Death okay) .n.

I might be remembering wrong but isn't killerken also viable in place of Reviser in Dragooon spin-stealers etc? Also curious about Genbull for the same but I guess this isn't the place, haha.

Yeah, Killerken needs to go up for customs like MSF-H Killerken/Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD. Genbull probably wouldn't be bad either, and heck, even Gargole and Girago would probably be decent as well.

For at least MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD, I still maintain that Reviser is the best wheel, but other options aren't bad by any means.

Also, perhaps I missed stuff but is there a reason only SA165 is being used for Dragooon RDF, i.e. BD145 not being there any more? As I recall SA165 has less defense which I would think could be a problem (especially as RDF is doing most of the late-game survival in that setup anyway). Perhaps I'm wrong, though, I don't have much experience with the setup.

That's not on that list? I missed that (I didn't write it), and yeah, Dragooon BD145RDF definitely needs to be on there too.

Lastly, I do see one thing on that list I don't agree with: Scythe 85RS: With so many Dragooon (i.e. left spin) setups running around (especially ones that have good precession/round-ish lower parts), which generally cause it a tonne of trouble, I really have to question its viability.

This is a valid concern. If your metagame is super attack heavy it holds an important niche of totally neutering Wyvang, but it definitely fails hardcore to left spin. I'm of the opinion that it is good enough inside its niche to be listed, but I concede that this argument is a compelling one.

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4D Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  

MFB Customs (Click to View)

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
  

I think the reason no one made a Duo Cancer SA165EWD thread is that it's pretty much just a generic stamina setup that just happens to do extremely well against left-spin setups, and traditionally we don't bother with threads for generic combos. Generally just goes in the thread for the main or most recently released part, but I guess nowadays things are quiet so it's not like anyone would mind.

Did the color thing with F230 get settled? If one color is significantly better to the point the other isn't competitive, it should be noted on the list IMO (just put an asterisk on it and add a note at the bottom of appropriate categories), at least until a full beywiki entry is made for the part.

Other than that I don't have much to add.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Dragooon B: D : Everything I've done with Revizer Dragooon B: D has indicated it is little more than an inferior version of SA165EWD, .........

tl;dr: Strong Objection to Dragooon B: D being added, based on experience with it and most relevant parts.

Wait, I've been out of the competitive meta for a while, but is ___ Dragooon B:D really obsolete nowadays? I vividly remember back then in a tournament, Killerken Dragooon B:D was winning 3-0s against Killerken Dragooon SA165 EWD, and yes, that's putting aside its spin steal ability. In terms of stamina, I think ___ Dragooon B:D is still a decent setup.

I actually really like RS on E230, namely in boost mode. The combination of the high center of gravity with the raw grip and stationary movement pattern of RS make E230[boost]RS combos especially difficult to KO.

I disagree. RS on 230 tracks has such bad balance that it pretty much negates any grip it's supposed to have. Yes, it might be difficult to KO, but it will still get tossed around, and losing loads of stamina in the process, which even an Attack setup on an RF can potentially outspin.

I've been pulling for 230 being taken off the stamina list for a long time, lol! ........ I'd take Phantom TH195 over Phantom 230 any day of the week.

Don't even.... What the... ? Lol... No...

Was that ever the case outside of Zero-G (barring hype overflowing from there to bb-10)? It really never seemed threatening the many times I've used it... But, after doing some more rounds with revizer dragooon sa165ewd against the duo combo mentioned it also doesn't fare that well, so I will tone down my objection a little. Still think it's more hype than merit though

I'd want to see testing on (relevant wheel setup - i.e. not revizer revizer where i'd not be surprised at it sucking) E230RS vs relevant attack setups from at least two different people before a decision is made to remove it, which I think is justified given we're talking about removing one of the hardest to KO setups in the game from the defense list. Not something that should be done lightly. I may try it myself if I get time but that's not likely at this stage (and I don't really have any suitable synchromes that don't have appalling stamina anyway).

I'm glad you rocked up to advocate 230, seeing as I personally share the other's experience with it compared to TH170. Stilllllll getting the same matchup results from when I tested the track in the first place.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

My thoughts. Enjoy!!

Spoiler (Click to View)

As far as Dragoon___ BD(Bearing Drive) goes in BB110 I personally don't think it needs to be on the list. Its not bad, but its not good. Its a niche' combo that can work in certain metas.

And I also favor Killerken over Revizer any day of the week on Dragoon. I just get better results all around with Killerken.

I say keep 230 on for stamina. I was never a fan of th170 for stamina. It just seemed so shaky once you put it on the 195 height. |

It was mentioned in the public discussion thread, but how do you feel about taking Aquario off the list? Now that we have cygnus & cancer, no one uses Aquario. I say we make a call and remove it.

RS on E230 is bad. It loses balance, you lose. Simple as that. That is talking from tournament experience.

Id like to see BWD for stamina. Blitz did some very good testing for it back in the day. I say it should at the least be looked into.

Duo SA165 BWD/EWD needs to be on the list. Its a decent stamina setup and can counter most left spin combos. It had a great showing at Beyblade REVOLUTION. *cough* Valentin!!

Here's my list. Ill update it a bit more when Im not so tired. Its a bit drastic. Part of the list is based off one TheBlackDragon made.

Spoiler (Click to View)

Attack

Wyvang

1. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)
2. Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Zero-G attack mode) (R2F/RF/LRF)


Balro

1. Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)


Flash

1. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)
2. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) W145MF


Defense

Duo

1. MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)

Reviser/Killerken

1. MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Revizer/Killerken BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
2. MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)


Genbull

1. MSF-H Genbull/Revizer Genbull BD145/E230 (RDF/RB/RSF)
Stamina

Duo

1. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)
4. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SR200TB
5. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160PD
6. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165 EWD/BWD


Genbull

1. Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
2. Genbull Genbull TH170TB

Phantom

1. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)

Dragooon

1. (MSF-H) Reviser/Genbull/Killerken Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) EWD/BWD


Balance

1. MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF

2. MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF

3. (MF-H/MF-M) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus) 230MB

4. MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF

5. MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF

6. Reviser Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) RDF

7. MF-M Duo/Death Cancer/Cygnus F230(Orange) CF/GCF

8. MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230(Orange) CF/GCF

9. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF

10. MSF-H Girago Girago BD145 RF

11. Genbull Genbull F230GCF

Edit:
Added:

Spoiler (Click to View)

MF-M Duo/Death (Cancer/Cygnus) F230(Orange) CF/GCF

MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230(Orange) CF/GCF

MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF

CS to E230

Death to F230 CF/GCF

Genbull Genbull F230GCF

Removed CS from Genbull in defense.

Removed Bull from defense on Duo and added Aquario.

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