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Burst Classic - New Format Feedback & Discussion

Jan. 25, 2019  10:30 PM
 
I've heard that response about the Turbo Recolors. A lot. But I'm asking for an official ruling, and ideally, a clarifying edit to the first post with the rule listings. Because the first post is the closest thing we have to official documentation, and unless that official documentation is edited, I could see a case being made for banning those.

Also, like I said, Silver-X Jormuntor J4 is a recolor of a bey that is already banned in Burst Classic format. There's no way that's format legal.
Jan. 26, 2019  1:35 PM
 
Apologies for my silence! I'm on vacation at the moment, haha. I did see your message too @[DeceasedCrab], albeit a bit late.

The ruling on recoloured Dual Layer Turbo stuff will need some thought on the wording, but yes, they are permitted as long as their base form isn't banned. i.e Silver-X Jormuntor J4 will not be permitted as Jormuntor J2 is banned.

Do Slingshock Drivers really need a written ruling? They're definitely permitted, there's nothing there to say they aren't, haha.

On the topic of my London write up as well; it'll have to wait, but I also think that might be a good thing for the sake of not having it influence this weekend's events and seeing how they go, completely unbiased from existing results. I'll get this up soon, but yeah, might actually end up for the best that it doesn't go up yet.
Jan. 26, 2019  5:07 PM
 
(Jan. 26, 2019  1:35 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Apologies for my silence! I'm on vacation at the moment, haha. I did see your message too @[DeceasedCrab], albeit a bit late.

The ruling on recoloured Dual Layer Turbo stuff will need some thought on the wording, but yes, they are permitted as long as their base form isn't banned. i.e Silver-X Jormuntor J4 will not be permitted as Jormuntor J2 is banned.

Do Slingshock Drivers really need a written ruling? They're definitely permitted, there's nothing there to say they aren't, haha.

On the topic of my London write up as well; it'll have to wait, but I also think that might be a good thing for the sake of not having it influence this weekend's events and seeing how they go, completely unbiased from existing results. I'll get this up soon, but yeah, might actually end up for the best that it doesn't go up yet.

Cleaned up the Google Sheet based on the clarifications.
Jan. 28, 2019  1:18 AM
 
Well, I was in my first Classic Tournament today. It was a lot of fun.
I didn't get a good sense of what other beys worked well, between rounds I was mostly having 3-5 person battle royales in the colossal beystadium.
Here's the combos I tried and the records I had with them.


Hasbro Ifritor I2/Heavy/Zephyr: 0 Wins 2 Losses
I was expecting this one to do a little better, but I just couldn't get the knack of it. Ifritor I2 Hasbro version has the same bursty goodness as TT, but without the extra-breaky plastic. I was hoping for some good bursts with this. It has some nasty prongs in both directions, meaning both same spin and opposite spin beys are in danger from it, even though the protrusions generally don't go very far.

The problem is keeping ITSELF from bursting. The slopes are Not Good. It's Viable, but you need to pick your other parts (especially the tip) based around what will hold, to keep it from self-bursting.

In testing, I discovered that Xtreme and Hunter didn't have the gripping power needed to avoid a self-burst. However, with 2 color variants of Zephyr, they both have an incredible hold when paired with Ifritor I2.

Performancewise, it won a few of the rounds, but could never reach 3 points, and I think it went 0-3 in the 2nd match. I really want to make Ifritor I2 work, but it needs some testing.

Hasbro Doomscizor D2/Heavy/Unite: 2 Wins 2 Losses

I'm happy with how this one did. Doomscizor D2 is a beast with fine stamina and decent attack. It's got a lot of good smooth bits, and its major downside is a total lack of weight. Also its slopes, they're even worse than Ifritor I2. With this combo I more or less avoided bursting entirely.

Unite is a weird choice for a tip, but I had to do it to avoid the burst. My Orbit is a green Hasbro one that I got with D2, and I don't know if it's just me but it doesn't hold at all. Burst City. I might pick up Anubion A2 just to see if the Orbit's better. EDIT: I did, and the Dark Olive Green Orbit with A2 is actually a way better hold. I think it might be viable for next tournament.

Heavy is probably a weird choice for the core disk. Spread might've been a better one. I probably could've outspun more opponents with Spread, which I had. But I got the Heavy, and it was gold (Thanks @[Yami] ) and it went right to my head.

I feel with a little fine tuning this could become one of the top layers for the classic meta, without being so overpowered that it needs to be banned. Perhaps someone else can determine a better disk/tip combo.

Now that I have a better Orbit, I'll definitely try D2.Sp.Orb next time. D2 Sporb.
---

What worked for everyone else?
Jan. 28, 2019  12:52 PM
 
So I've attended a few tournaments in Turkey (unofficial tournaments that the Turkish beyblade forum organises) ... since we don't yet have switch strike released here our meta is mostly based on Hasbro single/dual parts. A few people order online so there are some newer/Takara beys but it's mostly single/dual layers.(I'd expect it to be somewhat similar to the burst classic meta). We don't use the deck format and it's single elimination Bo5 with burst finishes worth 2 points so keep that in mind.

I can't say how the following combos fair against takara Beys but;

Unicrest Gravity Survive basically beats any and everything that can't outspin it, so anything that's not using revolve/Orbit or kerberus/Anubion a2/yegdrion/d2. I haven't tested it against Dragoon f/s.
I only recently got a Gaianon but I'd expect to perform similarly to Unicrest.


Evipero Gravity/Heavy Needle isn't as strong as UGS when it comes to raw defense but it can occasionally burst/ko stamina types that use revolve.


R/X/V2 seem to be the best attack types. I've had the most success with Roktavor Limited Xtreme (I've also tried heavy, knuckle and gravity on this combo, limited seemed to have the best mix of movement/burst resistance/ko power), Xcalius Heavy Variable (very worn) and V2 Triple Xtreme.

Roktavor and Valtryek (1) seem to work on stationary attack combos. Roktavor with Survive/Valtryek with Orbit have worked well so far.

X2 Heavy Weight could have some potential, X2 being unbalanced + weights plastic ridges(idk if that's the correct word) make it move in an odd but possibly useful way.

Spryzen S2 and Ifritor I2 are solidly outclassed by the previously mentioned parts imo.


Most posts here say D2 has terrible burst resistance and the wiki claims that D2 lags behind parts like kerberus and yegdrion in terms of stamina but my D2 Knuckle Revolve was out spinning J2 Spread Orbit and did decently vs most attacks types(by decently I mean it was doing better than kerberus/yegdrion) . D2 does burst super often against W2 specifically so there's that.
Jan. 28, 2019  3:00 PM
 
I was really excited about attending a tournament for this new format, despite having sold most of my old competitive stuff in recent months, but I came away from yesterday's event feeling like I'd just played Hasbro-Only Format 2.0.

The massive presence of Hasbro Beyblades exacerbated the confusion of this fledgling format for many old players by passing onto it the same major flaw that our Hasbro-Only format suffers from: major inconsistency between the performance of parts (i.e. widely varying degrees of tightness in identical Energy Layers and Performance Tips).

Beyblade Burst has always had varying standards of performance between parts. However, the discrepancies between performance of individual parts of Takara-Tomy's product line have rarely approached the gross inconsistency displayed by Hasbro's.

Burst Classic as it stands just feels like a Hasbro Format that wants to be a Burst Limited with all the God Layers and Turbo Drivers it's got, but just won't quite commit. Until there's a proper Burst Limited, tbh I'll probably pass on future Classic tournaments.
Jan. 28, 2019  4:35 PM
 
Thanks for the feedback @[Angry Face], and sorry to hear it wasn't a great experience for you. Any particular Hasbro stuff that you felt had inconsistent resistance at all?

I did hear some reports that Hasbro D2 was more resistant than desired, but not much about anything else, haha.
Jan. 28, 2019  4:56 PM
 
(Jan. 28, 2019  4:35 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Thanks for the feedback @[Angry Face], and sorry to hear it wasn't a great experience for you. Any particular Hasbro stuff that you felt had inconsistent resistance at all?

I did hear some reports that Hasbro D2 was more resistant than desired, but not much about anything else, haha.

Hasbro's recolored D2s were big, but the blue and orange-painted Odin was also surprisingly tight on some of the Turbo Performance Tips.
Jan. 28, 2019  7:13 PM
 
(Jan. 28, 2019  4:56 PM)Angry Face Wrote:
(Jan. 28, 2019  4:35 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Thanks for the feedback @[Angry Face], and sorry to hear it wasn't a great experience for you. Any particular Hasbro stuff that you felt had inconsistent resistance at all?

I did hear some reports that Hasbro D2 was more resistant than desired, but not much about anything else, haha.

Hasbro's recolored D2s were big, but the blue and orange-painted Odin was also surprisingly tight on some of the Turbo Performance Tips.

I'm not sure that it's so much consistencies with different molds as it is that some of the newer drivers are just more burst resistant. The reason I stuck to D2 Destroy is because just like the Takara Tomy version, it's tighter. When I tried any other driver with decent LAD, it would burst relatively easily against decent stationary attack. Some of the newer drivers just have tighter springs than say Orbit, which gives the impression that they're tighter in the match than you might remember. The two layers that I found to be the most problematic were both Takara Tomy.
Jan. 28, 2019  9:15 PM
 
Maybe it's just me, but I find the idea of a stable and solved meta boring. I love having a certain amount of variance in games interesting. A board game without a large amount of random chance is a bored game. And sure, the Hasbro part variance comes back to bite me a lot (I have a lime green Hasbro Orbit that is so weak that it's almost unusable, leading me to use mostly attack/balance parts during this tournament) it still leads to interesting combinations that I wouldn't otherwise normally see.

It's not as if Hasbro totally dominated. There were a fair amount of TT beys there that performed well, including Kaiser Kerbeus and Jail Jormungand. I'm fairly certain there were a bunch of TT beys in the finals. If anything Hasbro parts were more visible at the tournament because a lot of players didn't have tournament legal beys on arrival, and they had to buy some. Hasbro Dual layers are still widely available in the US, whereas TT Dual and Single layers are mostly Ebay and Amazon only.

It was fun and refreshing to see earlier generation beys get a time to shine.

If you want a tournament where the Hasbro parts are completely absent, make a TT-only format and play that. Or just play Burst Standard where the Hasbro parts are so outclassed and maligned that any of them that deviate from their TT counterparts in any positive way get banned.

There's an inherent and systemic prejudice against Hasbro parts among the organizers and committee, both conscious and subconscious, and I don't really care to stand by idly and let it continue.
Jan. 28, 2019  9:39 PM
 
Honestly, I would want destroy to be banned, because Attack was always known for the skill needed to use it. Destroy is too effective for attack with little needed skill for application aside of launch speed

If someone wants to use attack they need to have the skills to actually use it instead of using a driver that does all the work for them.

we already have Accel and Xtreme for both purposes Destroy serves, but with a steeper curve on how to use them wisely.
Jan. 28, 2019  10:04 PM
 
(Jan. 28, 2019  4:56 PM)Angry Face Wrote: Hasbro's recolored D2s were big, but the blue and orange-painted Odin was also surprisingly tight on some of the Turbo Performance Tips.
I'm surprised that Odax was being used, I thought its nerf would've oofed it out of commission. In that case, do you happen to remember what SlingShock Driver Odax was used on? I feel like it might've been Eternal-S, which I don't currently have at the moment, but once I get it, I'll test Odax on Et-S. I do have Yard-S, Volcanic-S, Xtend-S, and Jolt-S though, so if Odax was being used on any of those Drivers, let me know so I can do some testing with it. Thanks.
Jan. 28, 2019  11:08 PM
 
(Jan. 21, 2019  10:45 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Just to follow up; I do intend on reviewing Saturday's event! Just been kept busy the last few days unfortunately, haha. Should hopefully have something up tomorrow Smile

To comment on concerns about Xtreme Dash though; I think it's somewhat needed after seeing the events of Saturday unfortunately, but I'd like to try some more Classic events before committing to a stance on that, haha.

I do agree that we don't need more Dash tips though, and I'll comment more on that in my writeup.

It doesn't make sense why any of the dash drivers are banned besides possibly Z' and Ds'.

X', Hn', Z', and Ds' are the only competitively viable dash drivers. Makes no sense to ban B', A', M', Vl', and Zt'.

On the topic, is there any testing that's been done to give reason to ban Xt+?
Jan. 29, 2019  12:17 AM
 
(Jan. 28, 2019  11:08 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote:
(Jan. 21, 2019  10:45 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Just to follow up; I do intend on reviewing Saturday's event! Just been kept busy the last few days unfortunately, haha. Should hopefully have something up tomorrow Smile

To comment on concerns about Xtreme Dash though; I think it's somewhat needed after seeing the events of Saturday unfortunately, but I'd like to try some more Classic events before committing to a stance on that, haha.

I do agree that we don't need more Dash tips though, and I'll comment more on that in my writeup.

It doesn't make sense why any of the dash drivers are banned besides possibly Z' and Ds'.

X', Hn', Z', and Ds' are the only competitively viable dash drivers. Makes no sense to ban B', A', M', Vl', and Zt'.

On the topic, is there any testing that's been done to give reason to ban Xt+?

It's all in the name of balance, really. Because attack is so viable, players should have no choice but to give up good stamina for better burst resistance. While Vl' could probably be unbanned, drivers like Z', A', Zt', Ds', etc. would be the default choice of many due to their decent stamina potential and burst resistance. This would make smash attack drivers like X/X', Hn/Hn', Jl, etc. unviable (since they are already countered by stallers) and put some of the more niche stamina drivers that are only good in classic because of their burst resistance out of commission.

Xt+ has been banned for the time being because of the threat it possesses as a flexible stamina driver with better burst resistance than Atomic, which is currently banned because of its good LAD and ability to avoid certain types of attack.
Jan. 29, 2019  6:38 AM
 
I don't have the parts on hand, but can someone do testing with a strong Ds Combo against a counter and the same but with X'?
Jan. 29, 2019  2:08 PM
 
(Jan. 28, 2019  9:39 PM)Siⱺn Wrote: Honestly, I would want destroy to be banned, because Attack was always known for the skill needed to use it. Destroy is too effective for attack with little needed skill for application aside of launch speed

If someone wants to use attack they need to have the skills to actually use it instead of using a driver that does all the work for them.

we already have Accel and Xtreme for both purposes Destroy serves, but with a steeper curve on how to use them wisely.

Honestly, attack's skill cap is one of the factors making attack much less viable. If attack has a driver (destroy) that makes it more viable for low, mid, or even high level players to use, it should be embraced.

Destroy doesn't make attack too good, it simply makes it more viable. If destroy were to be banned, The meta would shift towards stamina types, like burst standard is currently.

So while destroy may be highly infuriating to play against, it would be best to leave the ban hammer on the shelf, allowing for a more diverse meta.
Jan. 29, 2019  4:49 PM
 
To be honest, I'm kind of surprised the Hasbro-exclusive Turbo Layers (i.e. Kraken K4, Sphinx S4, etc.) are banned. Is there a reasoning behind this?
Jan. 29, 2019  10:45 PM
 
Maybe it's because they're brand new, and there's nothing classic about them. Sure, they might be competitive on par with the Dual Layers, but that doesn't make them classic.
Jan. 29, 2019  10:51 PM
 
no it's not on the banlist
Jan. 29, 2019  10:55 PM
 
The fact that they're new also means that very little testing on them has been done. For the time being, we would rather prioritize balancing and refining the current list. It's possible that they could be added to the list of legal parts someday assuming that they don't outshine the single and dual layers that the format is balanced around, but the fact that Turbo layers are larger and heavier than early Burst releases does present some challenges.
Jan. 29, 2019  10:56 PM
 
They're Turbo Layers, they're on the banlist.
Jan. 29, 2019  11:06 PM
 
Actually, I'd like to propose something that would give tons of other drivers a chance.

What if any driver with at least one freely rotating part (meaning any component is able to make a full 360 degree turn in any direction independent of the rest of the driver) is not allowed in classic?

This would give many other defense-stamina drivers a chance instead of what I know is going to be a free-spinning stamina+destroy driver funfest, which Flame~Capricorn pointed out to me.

This would give a slight edge to attack types (which is beneficial since they take much more skill to control than the other types) while making defense-stamina players take a little more thought into their combos.
Jan. 29, 2019  11:07 PM
 
(Jan. 29, 2019  11:06 PM)Siⱺn Wrote: Actually, I'd like to propose something that would give tons of other drivers a chance.

What if any driver with at least one freely rotating part (meaning any component is able to make a full 360 degree turn in any direction independent of the rest of the driver) is not allowed in classic?

This would give many other defense-stamina drivers a chance instead of what I know is going to be a free-spinning stamina+destroy driver funfest, which Flame~Capricorn pointed out to me.

This would give a slight edge to attack types (which is beneficial since they take much more skill to control than the other types) while making defense-stamina players take a little more thought into their combos.

So parts like Orbit, Gyro, Revolve, Destroy, etc. would be banned?
Jan. 29, 2019  11:13 PM
 
(Jan. 29, 2019  11:07 PM)Dt20000 Wrote:
(Jan. 29, 2019  11:06 PM)Siⱺn Wrote: Actually, I'd like to propose something that would give tons of other drivers a chance.

What if any driver with at least one freely rotating part (meaning any component is able to make a full 360 degree turn in any direction independent of the rest of the driver) is not allowed in classic?

This would give many other defense-stamina drivers a chance instead of what I know is going to be a free-spinning stamina+destroy driver funfest, which Flame~Capricorn pointed out to me.

This would give a slight edge to attack types (which is beneficial since they take much more skill to control than the other types) while making defense-stamina players take a little more thought into their combos.

So parts like Orbit, Gyro, Revolve, Destroy, etc. would be banned?

Essentially. It would give attack far more viability while not being too harsh on defense and stamina, which still has drivers like: Bite, Octa, Friction, Yielding, and Claw, Just to name a few that I would use in this scenario.
Jan. 29, 2019  11:23 PM
 
(Jan. 29, 2019  11:06 PM)Siⱺn Wrote: Actually, I'd like to propose something that would give tons of other drivers a chance.

What if any driver with at least one freely rotating part (meaning any component is able to make a full 360 degree turn in any direction independent of the rest of the driver) is not allowed in classic?

This would give many other defense-stamina drivers a chance instead of what I know is going to be a free-spinning stamina+destroy driver funfest, which Flame~Capricorn pointed out to me.

This would give a slight edge to attack types (which is beneficial since they take much more skill to control than the other types) while making defense-stamina players take a little more thought into their combos.
If you really want to make a case for this, you gotta do some testing to show why the meta for Classic would benefit from every free-spinning Driver being banned.
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