How many work without me. 
Sorry guys,i've been busy today
I'll read all and tomorrow i'll be with you :]
Sorry guys,i've been busy today
I'll read all and tomorrow i'll be with you :]
Building a Plastic Top Tier List!
Wolborg 1 BB and Wolborg 2 BB
also, Driger F shaft shouldn't work in SG Bearing Ver., yeah.
also, Driger F shaft shouldn't work in SG Bearing Ver., yeah.
Galaxy: That's fine, man 
. 'll have an updated version of that draft up in a few minutes.
@McFrown: Thanks, I'll edit it to reflect that correctly.
EDIT:
Second Draft: With updates as mentioned. Notes on testing needed etc included, blah blah blah.
From Before
kay, here we go. It's VERY rough. This is taken from beywiki and info in this thread. I've noted what needs discussion from memory. Hope it's decent (don't shoot the messenger 
)
. 'll have an updated version of that draft up in a few minutes.@McFrown: Thanks, I'll edit it to reflect that correctly.
EDIT:
Second Draft: With updates as mentioned. Notes on testing needed etc included, blah blah blah.
From Before
kay, here we go. It's VERY rough. This is taken from beywiki and info in this thread. I've noted what needs discussion from memory. Hope it's decent (don't shoot the messenger )Template (Click to View)
Draft Plastics Tier List (Second Draft) Wrote:Attack
Discuss: Obviously various combos need to be considered.Upper Attack (Click to View)
Correct Bases for Upper Attack SP
Driger V2?
Investigate the effect of spin direction, as mentioned by McFrown. View His Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilrfsjLj688
Discuss: Wolborg 2’s Shaft in BK’s Casings with Customise Bearing Base+Whatever SP (added to top tier, though I’d like more input on it).Smash Attack (Click to View)
Discuss: Basically, everything. What makes a good OHKO combo, etc etc. Engine Gears?One Hit Knock Out (OHKO)*NEEDS A LOT OF WORK (Click to View)
Defense
What SG would be used with Defense Grip Base (seaborg) (Is an HMC worth the stamina tradeoff?)Grip-Based (Click to View)
Discuss: Mirage Goddess (Venus/Venusian G), War Monkey and other AR’s with free spinning sub-AR’s. Is 10 heavy viable (Wide Defense and Survivor greatly lower the recoil of Upper Dragoon and Smash Turtle, 10 heavy doesn’t. Would War Monkey or whatever make it more viable?)Weight Based (Click to View)
Endurance
Discuss: AR TieringZombies (Click to View)
Balance
Discuss: Holy Despell+War Lion SAR, Metal Ball Base (can’t use HMC, lighter than SG MCB+HMC), Magne WD.Compacts (Click to View)
Discuss: The name, What SG to use in Volcano Change Base. Should we include notes on launching (SCB self KO’s, so specific launches must be used to utilise this combo successfully)SCB AKA Buezee Was Right (Spin Stealers/Zombie Killers?) (Click to View)
Other Discussion: What about other random balance combo’s? Retesting of 10bBistool is needed, as much of its popularity seems based on effectiveness in the Hasbro Finals Stadiums, which we don’t use. Without them, it gets KO’d or Zombied by most things.
Fortress Base with Different SG's needs investigation.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
For Upper Attack SG Free Shaft Ver. + Full Auto Clutch in Wolborg 2 BB should be included. I'd probably dump Storm Grip tbh.
For Smash Attack, 10 Wide should be Tier 2. Dragoon V's AR might be worth testing. I'd probably dump Storm Grip Base. Wolborg 2’s Shaft in BK’s Casings isn't very attack oriented at all. I think for that you use it in SG Free Shaft Ver. I'll check later.
For Defense: Drop Wide Survivor to Tier 2. Probably dump Cross Survivor and Survival Ring. 10/6 Heavy with SG Metal Ball base is icky.
For SCB, I'd get rid of the Endurance Mode mention. Endurance Mode loses battles.
For Zombies, it's Bearing Gyro AR. For compacts, you should add 10 Balance as well as Semi-Flat.
For Smash Attack, 10 Wide should be Tier 2. Dragoon V's AR might be worth testing. I'd probably dump Storm Grip Base. Wolborg 2’s Shaft in BK’s Casings isn't very attack oriented at all. I think for that you use it in SG Free Shaft Ver. I'll check later.
For Defense: Drop Wide Survivor to Tier 2. Probably dump Cross Survivor and Survival Ring. 10/6 Heavy with SG Metal Ball base is icky.
For SCB, I'd get rid of the Endurance Mode mention. Endurance Mode loses battles.
For Zombies, it's Bearing Gyro AR. For compacts, you should add 10 Balance as well as Semi-Flat.
Not dumping storm grip, it's supposedly "the best". It'd take a lot of testing to dislodge that tbh.
10 Wide stays tier one for better exposure. Again, Storm grip is staple. Do check the Wolborg 2 thing, I got it from beywiki, and I'll remove it if you find it to be poor.
Defense: Eeeeh, it's still extremely low recoil, but maybe. Will remove the 10/6 heavy thing. Cross Survivor offers great upper attack protection, definitely tier one IMO, though I obviously lack defense ring to compare to.
SCB: Made it quite clear it sucks, but okay.
10 balance can be tier two, it's okay, but it's not really that "compact" tbh. That said, seeing as MG WD is in tier 2. Semi Flat is definitely tier two IMO, as it cannot take an HMC. What advantages does it offer over the other options (SG Semi Flat, SG Metal Change, Metal Ball Base)? I mean, that basically adds 10bBistool to the compact list, and I've stated why I disagree with that.
10 Wide stays tier one for better exposure. Again, Storm grip is staple. Do check the Wolborg 2 thing, I got it from beywiki, and I'll remove it if you find it to be poor.
Defense: Eeeeh, it's still extremely low recoil, but maybe. Will remove the 10/6 heavy thing. Cross Survivor offers great upper attack protection, definitely tier one IMO, though I obviously lack defense ring to compare to.
SCB: Made it quite clear it sucks, but okay.
10 balance can be tier two, it's okay, but it's not really that "compact" tbh. That said, seeing as MG WD is in tier 2. Semi Flat is definitely tier two IMO, as it cannot take an HMC. What advantages does it offer over the other options (SG Semi Flat, SG Metal Change, Metal Ball Base)? I mean, that basically adds 10bBistool to the compact list, and I've stated why I disagree with that.
I had a mint Storm Grip Base and tried it out and I was like 'I think I'll use other BB's from now on'.
10 Balance is compact enough to be considered 'compact' and it also adds enough Stamina to outspin most any other Compacts using 10 Heavy. Semi Flat + 10 Heavy + War Lion = My favorite compact. Semi Flat always beat SG Semi Flat. Honestly even the heaviest compacts are still easy to knock out so might as well use one with some more stamina that will beat other compacts? Semi Flat and 10 Balance imo are both viable tier 1 compact parts. They aren't the heaviest but they're small so it shouldn't matter. 10 Balance is fairly heavy anyways.
EDIT: Neither of my Wolborg 2 shafts in DBC go aggro for more than a few seconds with NSK's or Metal Bearings.
Leave Storm Grip Base just because everyone likes it I guess. I don't but w/e.
10 Balance is compact enough to be considered 'compact' and it also adds enough Stamina to outspin most any other Compacts using 10 Heavy. Semi Flat + 10 Heavy + War Lion = My favorite compact. Semi Flat always beat SG Semi Flat. Honestly even the heaviest compacts are still easy to knock out so might as well use one with some more stamina that will beat other compacts? Semi Flat and 10 Balance imo are both viable tier 1 compact parts. They aren't the heaviest but they're small so it shouldn't matter. 10 Balance is fairly heavy anyways.
EDIT: Neither of my Wolborg 2 shafts in DBC go aggro for more than a few seconds with NSK's or Metal Bearings.
Leave Storm Grip Base just because everyone likes it I guess. I don't but w/e.
Lol, I'll give it a shot as I said, ahah, if my Sonokong Stuff ever gets here, ahahah.
Honestly, War Lion/10 heavy/HMC/SG Metal Change is actually very hard to KO (and it's got decent stamina IMO). I'll add 10 balance to Tier 1, it IS as heavy as 8 Heavy.
War Lion would do a lot for that combo's defense, but yeah.
I really don't think Semi Flat is a compact part, given it's so light. Will consider other opinions, but I personally don't want to add it, as I doubt it'll have decent chemistry with the other parts, and frankly, it means 10bBistool is a top-tier compact, which, as I've said, I disagree with.
Honestly, War Lion/10 heavy/HMC/SG Metal Change is actually very hard to KO (and it's got decent stamina IMO). I'll add 10 balance to Tier 1, it IS as heavy as 8 Heavy.
War Lion would do a lot for that combo's defense, but yeah.
I really don't think Semi Flat is a compact part, given it's so light. Will consider other opinions, but I personally don't want to add it, as I doubt it'll have decent chemistry with the other parts, and frankly, it means 10bBistool is a top-tier compact, which, as I've said, I disagree with.
I don't think the weight is a very big deal in practice. Honestly I hate SG Semi Flat and think it deserves tier 2 but w/e.
The whole point of a compact is concentrated weight, if you're not using that, it's not really a compact. The HMC is basically the most concentrated weight available, so an SG that can't use it is kinda pointless.
SG Semi Flat works great for me (though SG Metal Change is noticeably better IMO).
And again, what you've said pushes Metal Ball Base back to tier 1. It might already go there, it's only 1g lighter than the others w/ HMC's, though as people have been finding Nolands Wing Cross/10 Heavy/Metal Ball Base to suck, I'm not comfortable with it.
SG Semi Flat works great for me (though SG Metal Change is noticeably better IMO).
And again, what you've said pushes Metal Ball Base back to tier 1. It might already go there, it's only 1g lighter than the others w/ HMC's, though as people have been finding Nolands Wing Cross/10 Heavy/Metal Ball Base to suck, I'm not comfortable with it.
I know that's how it's supposed to be but I think it should be more defined as using small parts.
Metal Ball Base has a crappy tip and an awkward shape. Do you own Semi Flat?
Also Auto Change Base is really good imo.
Metal Ball Base has a crappy tip and an awkward shape. Do you own Semi Flat?
Also Auto Change Base is really good imo.
They're supposed to be defensive, they need that weight. Anything else is a different type of combo.
Fair enough. No, regrettably, I'm going by the fact compacts are defensively-leaning and need that weight, there's very little point to using a base with such light weight and no ability to add an HMC, because it compromises that. That's more of an endurance-leaning bey.
With that in mind, actually, if other people would like to have Semi-Flat as tier 1, it can be moved. I am personally not comfortable with it, but yeah, I don't have one to test properly.
As for ACB, what for? If it's for your idea of compacts, I'm happy to create a "Endurance-Compact" or "Compact-Endurance" category for them, and put 10bBistool in that too (though as I've said, waaaay too easily beaten)
If the parts work well, I've no problem with putting them up there if others agree, I'd rather not place them with compacts myself. It would also mean including Other SG's in the compact category, for example, a normal SG with SG Metal Change, would it not?
We could even make it a subsection of compacts or something, I dunno. They're far too different to the idea of a compact, though, IMO.
Fair enough. No, regrettably, I'm going by the fact compacts are defensively-leaning and need that weight, there's very little point to using a base with such light weight and no ability to add an HMC, because it compromises that. That's more of an endurance-leaning bey.
With that in mind, actually, if other people would like to have Semi-Flat as tier 1, it can be moved. I am personally not comfortable with it, but yeah, I don't have one to test properly.
As for ACB, what for? If it's for your idea of compacts, I'm happy to create a "Endurance-Compact" or "Compact-Endurance" category for them, and put 10bBistool in that too (though as I've said, waaaay too easily beaten)
If the parts work well, I've no problem with putting them up there if others agree, I'd rather not place them with compacts myself. It would also mean including Other SG's in the compact category, for example, a normal SG with SG Metal Change, would it not?
We could even make it a subsection of compacts or something, I dunno. They're far too different to the idea of a compact, though, IMO.
I think you rate Compacts's defense too highly. They get knocked out anyways so might as well go for more Stamina.
Mine isn't easily KO'd, as I've said. If you're going to use something stamina based, just use a zombie... If that was their only point (due to their average attack), they'd basically be outclassed.
Zombies weren't great in the hasbro stadium because they didn't make good contact with a moving opponent, sich as 10b Bistool, and attack types were hard to use due to the size of the stadium. So, 10bBistool worked. Beys like that will suck against everything in a TT attack stadium, other than Compacts (which as you've said, should just be 10bBistool) and Weight-Based Defence (which AFAIK is less popular than grip-based, which beats 10bBistool).
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Zombies weren't great in the hasbro stadium because they didn't make good contact with a moving opponent, sich as 10b Bistool, and attack types were hard to use due to the size of the stadium. So, 10bBistool worked. Beys like that will suck against everything in a TT attack stadium, other than Compacts (which as you've said, should just be 10bBistool) and Weight-Based Defence (which AFAIK is less popular than grip-based, which beats 10bBistool).
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(Jul. 26, 2011 2:08 AM)Mc Frown Wrote: I think you rate Compacts's defense too highly. They get knocked out anyways so might as well go for more Stamina.i agree with Mc Frown..
attackers does very well in plastics..stamina combo is the one you really need as attackers palstic also has high endurance...
So, there's absolutely no use for defense in plastics, seeing as attack is so good?
That doesn't even make the tiniest bit of sense.
That doesn't even make the tiniest bit of sense.
Zombies didn't work in Hasbro tournaments because:
No Wide Survivor
No Wide Defense
I just 9-1'd Tiger Defenser/10 Heavy/Neo-Right HMC/SG Semi Flat with Triple Wing/Wide Defense/Neo Right HMC/SG Metal Flat 2 so I don't think it really matter how heavy it is.
Honestly even when I shot Triple Wing first straight on the Tornado Ridge it would still KO/OS at the end. It died once of a self-KO and a lucky wall save. That's not even my favorite Attacking combo.
No Wide Survivor
No Wide Defense
I just 9-1'd Tiger Defenser/10 Heavy/Neo-Right HMC/SG Semi Flat with Triple Wing/Wide Defense/Neo Right HMC/SG Metal Flat 2 so I don't think it really matter how heavy it is.
Honestly even when I shot Triple Wing first straight on the Tornado Ridge it would still KO/OS at the end. It died once of a self-KO and a lucky wall save. That's not even my favorite Attacking combo.
Whatever. I meant for that particular stadium, "why" they wouldn't work, but yeah.
So, 10bBistool dominated a zombieless metagame? GREAT!
Stick it on SG Metal Change, Use War Lion, try again. SG semi flat is meh.
Anyway, let's do a comparison:
10bBistool
Attack: Can't KO carp.
Defence: Easily KO'd
Stamina: Outspins Compacts, Weight Based Defence. LOSES to zombies.
Proper Compacts
Attack: SG Metal Flat gets some chance KO's, but nothing much without luck.
Defence: Hard to KO, High spin velocity causes issues for upper attack, high weight means they stand a chance against smash.
Stamina: Can OS weight Based Defence, maybe some other compacts (Metal Change Base, at least).
Zombies:
Attack: Can't KO carp
Defence: Harder to KO, due to bearings, though Upper attack is quite effective. Still relatively easily KO'd
Stamina: Outspin almost everything, including 10bBistool, Compacts, Weight Based Defence, and anything that can't KO them and isn't one of the few bases that has better LAD.
Heck, we can remove compacts, too, if you want?
But seriously, Beywiki calls 10bBistool a "Balance" combo, in a separate section from Compacts. I'd like to go with that.
So, 10bBistool dominated a zombieless metagame? GREAT!
Stick it on SG Metal Change, Use War Lion, try again. SG semi flat is meh.
Anyway, let's do a comparison:
10bBistool
Attack: Can't KO carp.
Defence: Easily KO'd
Stamina: Outspins Compacts, Weight Based Defence. LOSES to zombies.
Proper Compacts
Attack: SG Metal Flat gets some chance KO's, but nothing much without luck.
Defence: Hard to KO, High spin velocity causes issues for upper attack, high weight means they stand a chance against smash.
Stamina: Can OS weight Based Defence, maybe some other compacts (Metal Change Base, at least).
Zombies:
Attack: Can't KO carp
Defence: Harder to KO, due to bearings, though Upper attack is quite effective. Still relatively easily KO'd
Stamina: Outspin almost everything, including 10bBistool, Compacts, Weight Based Defence, and anything that can't KO them and isn't one of the few bases that has better LAD.
Heck, we can remove compacts, too, if you want?
But seriously, Beywiki calls 10bBistool a "Balance" combo, in a separate section from Compacts. I'd like to go with that.
(Jul. 26, 2011 2:31 AM)th!nk Wrote: Whatever. I meant for that particular stadium, "why" they wouldn't work, but yeah.
So, 10bBistool dominated a zombieless metagame? GREAT!
Stick it on SG Metal Change, Use War Lion, try again. SG semi flat is meh. so why is it tier 1 and not Semi Flat? Anyway, let's do a comparison:
10bBistool
Attack: Can't KO carp.opponent self ko's for victory
Defence: Easily KO'd
Stamina: Outspins Compacts, Weight Based Defence. Grip based Defense, some raw survival,LOSES to zombies.
Proper Compacts
Attack: SG Metal Flat gets some chance KO's, but nothing much without luck. aka opponent self KO's
Defence: Hard to KO, High spin velocity causes issues for upper attack, high weight means they stand a chance against smash. Relatively easy to KO or hit hard enough to outspin.
Stamina: Can OS weight Based Defence, maybe some other compacts (Metal Change Base, at least).
Zombies:
Attack: Can't KO carp
Defence: Harder to KO, due to bearings, though Upper attack is quite effective. Still relatively easily KO'd Smash works better than Upper on Zombies? Bearings don't make them harder to KO.
Stamina: Outspin almost everything, including 10bBistool, Compacts, Weight Based Defence, and anything that can't KO them and isn't one of the few bases that has better LAD.
Heck, we can remove compacts, too, if you want?
But seriously, Beywiki calls 10bBistool a "Balance" combo, in a separate section from Compacts. I'd like to go with that.
Semi Flat =/= 10B Bistool
What about War Lion/10 Heavy/Semi Flat?
Between 10bBistool and a proper compact,tbh. That said, I guess semi flat can be tier one if you are so insistent, though I disagree, and want others opinions. Honestly don't know why I got so worked up ahah, sorry
I'll edit it in when I've had some sleep :p
I'll edit it in when I've had some sleep :p
I think it should be added at least tentatively. I somewhat doubt others will disagree with my sentiments.
So, I played around with
AR: Upper Dragoon
WD: 10 Heavy
SG: SG Free Shaft Ver + Full Auto Clutch Shaft
BB: Wolborg's
Against
AR: Wing Upper (Flame Pegsasus)
WD: 10 Balance
SG: Right
BB: SG Semi Flat
Yeah, I know it's not great (it's a nice little combo though), it's just for testing against.
ANYWAY, the whole point was looking at what McFrown said about spin direction not mattering for upper attack, and Upper Dragoon being best in left spin. So, basically, played around, watched what happened, and...
I agree. In Right spin, Upper Dragoon just nudged and shoved it out of the stadium, in Left spin it was actually properly lifting it around, throwing it way off balance, and generally being a beast. And, the stamina was nice, too. Yeah, that was in Left Spin, against an opponent in the OPPOSITE direction.
So yeah. I'll do comparative tests with Upper Dragoon and Triangle Wing in left spin when I have the necessary parts to do so suitably.
AR: Upper Dragoon
WD: 10 Heavy
SG: SG Free Shaft Ver + Full Auto Clutch Shaft
BB: Wolborg's
Against
AR: Wing Upper (Flame Pegsasus)
WD: 10 Balance
SG: Right
BB: SG Semi Flat
Yeah, I know it's not great (it's a nice little combo though), it's just for testing against.
ANYWAY, the whole point was looking at what McFrown said about spin direction not mattering for upper attack, and Upper Dragoon being best in left spin. So, basically, played around, watched what happened, and...
I agree. In Right spin, Upper Dragoon just nudged and shoved it out of the stadium, in Left spin it was actually properly lifting it around, throwing it way off balance, and generally being a beast. And, the stamina was nice, too. Yeah, that was in Left Spin, against an opponent in the OPPOSITE direction.
So yeah. I'll do comparative tests with Upper Dragoon and Triangle Wing in left spin when I have the necessary parts to do so suitably.
Aw yeahhhhhhhhh
no one ever believes me when I tell them that ;<
Also if you can upgrade to Wide Defense and Wolborg 2's BB you'll be IN THE MONEY (with my fav combo).
no one ever believes me when I tell them that ;<
Also if you can upgrade to Wide Defense and Wolborg 2's BB you'll be IN THE MONEY (with my fav combo).
Well, they need to try it. Right spin worked, but left spin was far more effective, and actually far closer to my definition of "upper attack".
Also, after a quick try with both win an HMC and SG Metal Flat two, Triangle Wing and Upper Dragoon acted very similar in left spin.
And yeah, I've got those two on the way (Though the wide defense is a sonokong one so eeeh).
Also, after a quick try with both win an HMC and SG Metal Flat two, Triangle Wing and Upper Dragoon acted very similar in left spin.
And yeah, I've got those two on the way (Though the wide defense is a sonokong one so eeeh).
One thing that helps is if the little nubs are worn off your Upper Dragoon.
But yeah I wouldn't know I don't own Triangle Wing.
But yeah I wouldn't know I don't own Triangle Wing.
It's a bit more aggressive than upper dragoon, more angular. There's a little bit of smash in the mix, IMO.
Do you mean worn right off? That could take a while, ahah
BTW, re your edit to my comparison, meh. I find zombies are harder to KO, as their bearings tend to absorb an amount of the impact from opposing beys. Also, Tiger Defese/10Heavy/HMC/SG Metal Change KO's stuff sometimes, off it's own back, not from self-KOing opponents, and as I've said, the compact I use (Same but with War Lion), isn't easily KO'd from what I've tried.
That said, I accept your opinion, maybe I'm underestimating the combo's usefulness, eh. Semi Flat has been added (though I'd never use it).
Do you mean worn right off? That could take a while, ahah
BTW, re your edit to my comparison, meh. I find zombies are harder to KO, as their bearings tend to absorb an amount of the impact from opposing beys. Also, Tiger Defese/10Heavy/HMC/SG Metal Change KO's stuff sometimes, off it's own back, not from self-KOing opponents, and as I've said, the compact I use (Same but with War Lion), isn't easily KO'd from what I've tried.
That said, I accept your opinion, maybe I'm underestimating the combo's usefulness, eh. Semi Flat has been added (though I'd never use it).