World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. World Beyblade Organization Discuss worldbeyblade.org

Ban Odin Heavy Defense ?

Feb. 03, 2016  2:14 AM
 
I don't think you would ever see a rule in Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh! about the number of times you could use a card in a tournament. Too easy to cross wires or make a mistake and as I said, I don't think it will actually help things.

It's not about whether our judges are simpletons, BTW; it's that it's backwards to create an opportunity for judge error and/or player exploitation where there wasn't one before.
Feb. 03, 2016  2:15 AM
 
What about Chaos Ring Defense? Kei used it to beat OHD at Shogatsu. Can anyone run tests of CRD vs OHD?
Feb. 03, 2016  2:30 AM
 
(Feb. 03, 2016  2:14 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: I don't think you would ever see a rule in Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh! about the number of times you could use a card in a tournament. Too easy to cross wires or make a mistake and as I said, I don't think it will actually help things.

Sure, there's probably never been anything about the number of times you could use a card, but there are limits on the number of copies of each card you have use in a deck because players would use certain great cards without limit and the games would be broken. A limit on the number of copies of a Beyblade part you use doesn't make sense, but if you can limit the number of times it's used, then you can keep the game from being broken while still allowing the part to be used.

(Feb. 03, 2016  2:14 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: It's not about whether our judges are simpletons, BTW; it's that it's backwards to create an opportunity for judge error and/or player exploitation where there wasn't one before.

Don't we generally trust players not to illegally modify their parts by adding weights or applying foreign substances in ways that wouldn't normally be visible on an assembled Beyblade? If so, why couldn't we trust players to also keep track of the number of times they've used Odin? It's pretty simple to make checks next to players' names on registration sheets or spreadsheets to signify for judges the number of times a user has used the Layer, and judges and hosts are pretty attentive to those things.
Feb. 03, 2016  2:36 AM
 
(Feb. 03, 2016  1:48 AM)Manicben Wrote:
(Feb. 03, 2016  1:38 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: The issue is that the entire metagame has become centered around it. I don't think there's anything I could say now that I didn't say in this post.

I feel silly for not reading all of the previous posts. I completely see both viewpoints now and I must completely agree. I've restated what ClaraM and Thunder Dome have been saying and that is that OHD can be beaten. But now I see what you've posted a while back Brad and I agree with that too. This has happened in London, but not too much since not everyone has Odin, so we see some old/controversial combos which is always fun to see.

It is true that now it's down to whether we use Odin or whether we can beat it. When I think about it like that then perhaps we may need a (temporary) ban. It frustrates me when I even try to think of a solution that will satisfy everyone. I kinda hope that some of the upcoming releases have the potential to balance the metagame, but again that's too far away.

And if Odin were banned, wouldn't another combo just take its place? I mean DSS and DHA were pretty good while they were around... (Of course I'm sure Xtreme combos and VHS could beat them) I know there's not much I can do now to help decide, but I still think that a ban isn't a great idea right now.

After getting my Excaliber I now feel (since Extreme combos can't consistently beat OHD) that Odin should be banned. The situation at the last tourney was the same as others are describing where OHD was really your only choice. While it was enjoyable it does take the fun out of it. While OHD would simply be replaced they wouldn't be as overpowered as OHD is.

@Angry Face:

That's not a great comparison since for yugioh at least since Konami decides what cards are outright banned and limited. No one outside of the company has any say in it.
Feb. 03, 2016  2:39 AM
 
(Feb. 03, 2016  2:15 AM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: What about Chaos Ring Defense? Kei used it to beat OHD at Shogatsu. Can anyone run tests of CRD vs OHD?

Chaos can defeat Odin, but it's risky to one degree or another because of its extremely shallow teeth. I only beat Odin Heavy Defense 3-2 in that battle. Chaos isn't good against much of anything else, so it is a purely situational combo. The fact is that a combo like that becomes relevant only because the metagame has become centred around defeating Odin Heavy Defense. Before Odin there was no singular combo that the metagame was centred around defeating.
Feb. 03, 2016  2:57 AM
 
(Feb. 03, 2016  2:36 AM)Ultra Wrote: @Angry Face:

That's not a great comparison since for yugioh at least since Konami decides what cards are outright banned and limited. No one outside of the company has any say in it.

Even though cards in YGO and MTG can be outright banned like parts in Beyblade can be, my point is that players can't just put infinite copies of cards in their decks like Bladers can use any part any number of times they want throughout a tournament. At least in YGO, it has limited and semi-limited classes for certain cards that still allow them to be used in smaller quantites, thus reducing the frequency at which they can appear.
Feb. 03, 2016  6:19 AM
 
(Feb. 03, 2016  2:57 AM)Angry Face Wrote:
(Feb. 03, 2016  2:36 AM)Ultra Wrote: @Angry Face:

That's not a great comparison since for yugioh at least since Konami decides what cards are outright banned and limited. No one outside of the company has any say in it.

Even though cards in YGO and MTG can be outright banned like parts in Beyblade can be, my point is that players can't just put infinite copies of cards in their decks like Bladers can use any part any number of times they want throughout a tournament. At least in YGO, it has limited and semi-limited classes for certain cards that still allow them to be used in smaller quantites, thus reducing the frequency at which they can appear.

The issue is that adding restrictions on deck size and duplicate cards adds an element of randomness to card games, while limiting the extent that Odin can be played is nonrandom. Restricting the number of duplicate cards in your deck lets you know you have an X% chance of drawing a given card; restricting Odin is like putting those limited cards directly into your hand at the start of the game. You might only have one or two of them, but you can play them at any time, and your opponent can do the same.

somewhat irrelevant random thought:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Feb. 03, 2016  7:02 AM
 
(Feb. 03, 2016  1:39 AM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: When people say that VHX isn't consistent enough do they mean that the combo doesn't consistently beat OHD or that the different skill levels among the players using VHX vary, and so the results are inconsistent?

I can't really tell based on the differenct comments in this thread, but if the only thing making the results different is a lack of practice then I don't agree with a ban.

If Odin did get banned, is there a defense combo that consistently stops VHX? If not then wouldn't the tournament scene just turn into everyone using whatever the best stamina combo is or VHX? Thats the same lack of diversity that people are arguing exists because of OHD.

I think it is a combination of both. It's very true that Xtreme requires a considerable amount of skill to use, and skill levels with using Xtreme will vary between Bladers. The issue is that OHD performs better against certain opponents, including VHX, based on how strongly it is launched. By hitting the "sweet spot" in RPM Odin is able to resist being Burst by Valkyrie, and instead cause Valkyrie to Burst. Launch too fast and OHD will be KOed/Bursted by VHX, too slowly and you have a chance of being outspun. However, hitting this "sweet spot" also takes a good bit of skill, so make of that as you will.

Also, I'll just leave these here
Odin Heavy Defense vs. Deathscyther Heavy Defense
OHD: 13 wins (3 OS, 10 BF)
DHD: 7 wins (all OS)
3 ties (1 DBF, 2 DOS) redone
OHD win rate: 65%

Odin's Heavy was a 2-Star and Deathscyther's was a 4-Star. I alternated launches each round and swapped the Defenses halfway through. All Beyblades were launched with 100% power, so Defense moved aggressively for the first few seconds of the Battle. It does seem that Deathsyther will OS Odin most of the time... but only if Odin does not Burst it first. Using OHB over OHD would probably result in Deathscyther Bursting/being KOed even more.
Feb. 03, 2016  8:04 AM
 
My speculated competitive burst combos with Odin.

Attack:

Valkyrie/Amaterios/xcalibur heavy/force Xtreme

Defense:

!

Stamina:

Deathscyther Heavy/spread Defense/Survive/Claw


Balance:

Attack/Defense :

Odin Heavy/force xtreme


Attack/Stamina:

Odin Heavy/force/spread Accel/zephyr
Valkyrie/Amaterios heavy/force/spread Accel/zephyr


Stamina/defense:

Odin Heavy Defense/survive/claw


Defense/stamina:

Odin Heavy Needle/blow




My speculated competitive burst combos without Odin.

Attack:

Valkyrie/Amaterios/xcalibur heavy/force Xtreme

Defense:

Wyvern heavy/armed Needle/claw

Stamina:

Deathscyther Heavy/spread Defense/Survive/Claw


Balance:

Attack/Defense :

Wyvern heavy/force xtreme


Attack/Stamina:

Deathscyther Heavy/force Accel/zephyr
Valkyrie/Amaterios heavy/force Accel/zephyr
Valkyrie/Amaterios Heavy/force/spread survive/defense


Stamina/defense:

Deathscyther Heavy/spread needle/blow


Defense/stamina:

Wyvern Heavy/spread claw/survive






Ok so this was thrown together quickly to show my thoughts on the matter, please forgive me if I forgot any combos or parts or added any that you disagree with, but I think this is close enough to show my point.

With odin, there is no pure defense combo that is competitive. This is caused by the fact that odin is the strongest layer in defense and also has stamina soooo very close to Deathscyther's. this is a problem, and it does look to me like banning odin completely for now is the best option, after looking at it from this perspective.

Edit: Also, I forgot to mention that without a ban of odin, it would be the layer of choice for most of the competitive combos. That is really the larger problem.
Feb. 03, 2016  8:20 AM
 
(Feb. 03, 2016  8:04 AM)ZachBob Wrote: no pure defense combo that is competitive

if this test is correct. Wyvern Force Xtreme is pure competitive defence combo
Feb. 03, 2016  8:49 AM
 
(Feb. 03, 2016  8:20 AM)FOUNTAIN-FIRE Wrote:
(Feb. 03, 2016  8:04 AM)ZachBob Wrote: no pure defense combo that is competitive

if this test is correct. Wyvern Force Xtreme is pure competitive defence combo

Well first off all... that test shows WFX beating OHD.... by ko... burst.... and os... with a 64% win rate... wouldn't that make it an attack/stamina combo IF that test was correct?
I would have to argue that WFX is really a balance of defense and attack although it may be called an "anti-attack" or a "mobile defense" combo, or something like that ... also odin force xtreme is probably better. And i'm pretty sure that at this point, that is only good for beating attack combos on xtreme. Which is good and all but it probably takes a very large amount of skill, knowledge, and disaprin to use it properly. It would be ideal to have a "stationary defense" Bey in that spot imo.

On an unrelated note, I <3 U CRACKBLADER FIRE-FIRE
Feb. 03, 2016  2:23 PM
 
Does Wyvern Heavy Needle/Defense beat VHX?
Feb. 03, 2016  2:30 PM
 
I know this is kinda early (for me at least) but my view on the subject has changed(somewhat). Heavy is too versatile to be banned but Odin is too op. OHD and beys like it are beaten but inconsistently, OK I know this. I think of it this way....

Michael Jordan was the best basketball player of all time and still is.
(Odin Heavy Defense is the best bey in Burst)

People thought Jordan jumped high because of his shoes, so everybody wore them
(Odin + Defense might not perform well without Heavy)

The NBA banned Jordan from wearing his shoes
(The WBO bans Heavy on Odin)

Nike lessened their use of red and put more white on the shoe so Jordan could play in them
(We limit the use of Odin Heavy Defense)

Jordan and his fans are happy
(OHD can be used but only once per match)


Now tell me if I'm wrong or tell me if I'm just stupid. This is only my new view on this. Limit OHD because it is so good but don't completely ban it.

Oh and yay! More sports analogies!
Lets stay positive guys Grin
Feb. 03, 2016  3:11 PM
 
(Feb. 03, 2016  2:23 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: Does Wyvern Heavy Needle/Defense beat VHX?

Well, here's a test by Zoroaste from the needle testing thread.
WHN/D vs VHX (Click to View)
Feb. 04, 2016  1:13 PM
 
Throughout this discussion, I was speaking with zero experience with Odin, and since I was separated from my Beyblades for the last couple weeks, I'd not been able to try anything new out for myself. But last night, after being reunited with them lol, I opened up an Odin Booster I had been saving to sell and finally got to try it out. From that short time playing with it, damn, am I glad this is banned. That layer is potent and I'll actually be really glad I won't have to play against it in the Burst tournament this Saturday.
Feb. 04, 2016  3:52 PM
 
(Feb. 04, 2016  1:13 PM)Angry Face Wrote: Throughout this discussion, I was speaking with zero experience with Odin ...

You don't think this is worth mentioning when making proposals on how to handle it? lol
Feb. 15, 2016  4:31 AM
 
I really believe that there is something wrong with Odin and Takara made a mistake with the mold or something.

- If you compare Odin's Teeth vs Valkery or Excalibur your logic would suggest that Odin should have somewhat a a Weak to Medium resistance to Bursting. While Valk and Exca have Strong resistance to bursting. This makes sense since both Valk and Exca are attack layers with poor stamina.

- The other variable to the burst logic is that the Combination of Odin with Heavy should make it even easier to burst, since Heavy's weight momentum should reduce your clicks much more easier than any other ring.

The weakness of Odin and Heavy should have clearly been Bursting, I believe this is how you're supposed need to beat OH combo. Arena knock out is highly unlikely.

BUT Odin and Heavy combo DEFIES all logic in Beyblade Burst, it just doesn't make any sense....

Valkery and Excalibur have a higher chance of getting Burst by Odin, this clearly should be the other way around but the fact is it's not. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?

How can a Layer with weaker teeth than Excalibur would burst Excalibur instead of getting burst?

I don't know.

I only play at home and Odin have seriously destroyed my enthusiasm for Beyblade burst, in fact I play my Metal Fusion > Metal Masters beyblades way more.

another solution would be to make the B-19 Burst Bay the main stadium for competition. You would at least more of a chance of a knock out or burst.

TLDR Odin is freak of Beyblade and should be banned as there is no reliable counter.
Feb. 15, 2016  4:41 AM
 
(Feb. 15, 2016  4:31 AM)Duwg Wrote: -long quote-

Lucky for you (and the rest of the competitive scene); it's already been banned as a whole Wink
Feb. 15, 2016  4:41 AM
 
(Feb. 15, 2016  4:31 AM)Duwg Wrote: I really believe that there is something wrong with Odin and Takara made a mistake with the mold or something.

- If you compare Odin's Teeth vs Valkery or Excalibur your logic would suggest that Odin should have somewhat a a Weak to Medium resistance to Bursting. While Valk and Exca have Strong resistance to bursting. This makes sense since both Valk and Exca are attack layers with poor stamina.

- The other variable to the burst logic is that the Combination of Odin with Heavy should make it even easier to burst, since Heavy's weight momentum should reduce your clicks much more easier than any other ring.

The weakness of Odin and Heavy should have clearly been Bursting, I believe this is how you're supposed need to beat OH combo. Arena knock out is highly unlikely.

BUT Odin and Heavy combo DEFIES all logic in Beyblade Burst, it just doesn't make any sense....

Valkery and Excalibur have a higher chance of getting Burst by Odin, this clearly should be the other way around but the fact is it's not. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?

How can a Layer with weaker teeth than Excalibur would burst Excalibur instead of getting burst?

I don't know.

I only play at home and Odin have seriously destroyed my enthusiasm for Beyblade burst, in fact I play my Metal Fusion > Metal Masters beyblades way more.

another solution would be to make the B-19 Burst Bay the main stadium for competition. You would at least more of a chance of a knock out or burst.

TLDR Odin is freak of Beyblade and should be banned as there is no reliable counter.

Odin was banned um.... a week ago? Haha. Also, recoil. And, the B-19 stadium is terrible, and in no way is suited to be the standard stadium for Burst competitions.
Feb. 15, 2016  4:44 AM
 
(Feb. 15, 2016  4:41 AM)Myth Wrote: Odin was banned um.... a week ago? Haha. Also, recoil. And, the B-19 stadium is terrible, and in no way is suited to be the standard stadium for Burst competitions.

Link ban post?
Feb. 15, 2016  4:51 AM
 
(Feb. 15, 2016  4:44 AM)Duwg Wrote:
(Feb. 15, 2016  4:41 AM)Myth Wrote: Odin was banned um.... a week ago? Haha. Also, recoil. And, the B-19 stadium is terrible, and in no way is suited to be the standard stadium for Burst competitions.

Link ban post?

Sorry, not a week, 11 days...
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Burst-F...ournaments
Feb. 15, 2016  4:57 AM
 
Thank you for the link, not sure how I missed that and what a relief.
May. 21, 2016  2:45 AM
 
Figured this was the perfect opportunity to revive this thread.

Before anything else, I want to stress that when it comes to testing Attack combos, all data should be treated with skepticism. While Stamina Vs. Stamina testing can be pretty cut-and-dry, Attack-type testing is so heavily dependent on the quality of the launch, and results don't tend to factor in moments when you totally mess the launch up. For all you know, I might just be having an off day. (Or a lucky one, depending on your perspective.)

With that in mind, I've theorized for a while that Victory Valkyrie (henceforth referred to as V2) might be a counter — or at least a check — to Odin. Tonight I decided to do some testing.


Victory Valkyrie Gravity Xtreme Vs. Odin Heavy Defense
OHD always launched first at roughly 50% power.

V2GX: 9 (6 BF, 3 KO)
OHD: 11 (6 BF, 5 OS)
Draws: 5 (5 DBF)

I found these results respectable against what's an essentially an especially-fearsome Stamina-Defense hybrid. Since Attack typically runs better against Stamina, and Defense is no longer the top Stamina Driver, I decided to try it against Odin Heavy Revolve.

Victory Valkyrie Gravity Xtreme Vs. Odin Heavy Revolve
OHD always launched first at roughly 50% power. I played ten more rounds because I was curious as to how the battles would continue progressing.

V2GX: 16 (11 BF, 4 KO)
OHR: 14 (8 OS, 4 BF, 2 KO)

OK, so ... not mind-blowing, but respectable. But I genuinely think V2's potential surpasses what this data shows. The results felt pretty dependent on the quality of the launch — gattyaki seemed effective (but I didn't count these rounds since the advantage in a testing scenario is too obvious), and a fast hit early on would often clinch the match. In many rounds, OHD and OHR were only saved by the walls or a lucky rebound back into the stadium from the exit's back-wall.

As some of you might have noticed, we're running a trial tournament in Virginia where KOs and BFs count for 2 points. We resisted adopting Takara-Tomy's 2-points-for-Burst rule early on seems BFs seemed too frequent and essentially random, but I think seeing the way the meta has played out, adopting it — along with giving 2 points for a KO as well — seems to me the clear way forward to incentivize skill-based, Attack-type play.

Under these rules, here's what the results of the above tests would look like from a points perspective:

V2GX: 18 points (6 BF, 3 KO)
OHD: 17 points (6 BF, 5 OS)

V2GX: 30 points (11 BF, 4 KO)
OHR: 20 points (8 OS, 4 BF, 2 KO)

Again, I can't vouch for the reliability of my data. But if it were up to me, I'd lift the ban on Odin right now along with adopting the 2 point scheme just to see how things go over BeyDays. I think the data gained from that would be invaluable.

But I tend to make rash decisions, and we owe it to the community to ensure that this is the right decision before moving forward with it. Plus, it would probably rightfully annoy a lot of people who would be caught off guard by the sudden rule change immediately before some intensely competitive events. :')

If I were to guess, though, I would say that Odin's days in the penalty box are numbered, and the straightforward best-of-3 ruleset is probably not long for this world.
May. 21, 2016  2:57 AM
 
Thank you for the Testings, Brad!

Very interesting how V2 does seem to handle Odin fairly well in your Testings (but again, I will wait for others until I draw my own conclusions). I wish both my Xtremes weren't worn and my Odin wasn't trash now (maybe wearing? I don't know why it's so horrible now). I will try Accel, though, seeing as @[ZachBob] had some success with it and possibly still being viable.
May. 21, 2016  3:03 AM
 
Thanks for the tests! Your results seem similar to what I have been hearing from others, but once again I am behind the times and don't own V2 to test it myself Uncertain

Regarding the rules change, I think it would be a really interesting and positive change, though I'm not sure it's best to change the rules right before all the BeyDays events. I certainly think that weighting KOs and Bursts double would be better than just Bursts, though.
Prev
Page 11
Next