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Ban Odin Heavy Defense ?

Jan. 24, 2016  1:15 AM
 
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning-...pid1309516

I honestly did not expect it to be such a wall when I came to the tournament, but I placed first mainly with it, and seeing London also SPAMming it on the same day and Japan finally catching on too makes it all very sour. The victory still depends on who has the strongest launch, but my Starter Kerbeus' Defense also seemed to have made a difference and it does not change the fact that you really do not have anything certain to counter Odin Heavy Defense. Therefore, it is even more of a problem than F230GCF/CF, no ? Because what people complained about the most with that combination of part is that it was overpowered and the few counters it had were not good at all against anything else.

My Blader heart sincerely wants this banned as soon as tomorrow to prevent any other area getting slammed by it too, and to open up some variety in the current regions' next tournaments.

As for what we ban, Odin with Claw or Survive is certainly not as overpowered, so Odin can stay, and while banning Heavy over the whole metagame would be extremely interesting, this is obviously not this combination's core issue. And just Odin + Defense makes no sense, since it might do well with Spread too or something.
Jan. 24, 2016  2:31 AM
 
This is certainly something we should look at. I think after Beyblade Shogatsu next week would be a good point to seriously consider doing some kind of ban.
Jan. 24, 2016  2:58 AM
 
I honestly want to do it before then, because it is so predictable that it will also rule Beyblade Shogatsu and it disgusts me to know that this is a correct assumption hah ...
Jan. 24, 2016  3:42 AM
 
Hey, thanks for posting about this. I can definitely agree on banning Odin Heavy Defense. It's definitely been used in Toronto for the safety it.

Valkyrie attack combos can't reliably counter it and it really is hard to say whether DHD or OHD is better for pure stamina. As I've said and experienced in the past, it seems to ultimately come down to which Blader has a better launch. I still truly believe that Odin Heavy Blow is the best counter to it.

After doing a couple of testings today, XHX seems to be a bit reliable as well, but you also run risks if you don't know how to use Xtreme properly. I'll definitely post those testings soon.

But I'm not sure we can ban Odin Heavy Defense without exploring options of versatility for Needle. For a lot of users, Needle has been good paired with Odin and Heavy, in fact seemingly better for defense. We have yet to test Needle and I think Beyblade Shogatsu is the perfect opportunity to do so. But if we do agree on banning it, it's obvious that we need to do it before Anime North. I think we'd like Beyblade Burst to look like a game where one or two combos aren't dominant of the game to the audience.

TL;DR - Limited counters and we would definitely need to test OHN before we decide on this. I'd assume Dual Layers would definitely change the game to the point where we can unban the combo, but I still believe it's safe to do it before AN.
Jan. 24, 2016  4:00 AM
 
But what would tests on Odin Heavy Needle even accomplish ? Is it supposed to be a counter to Odin Heavy Defense, really ? I think it just sounds like you fear that it could be a second customization to ban, but until it actually ruins a metagame in two or three areas (which Odin Heavy Defense has definitely done already), this is not a problem yet at all and Odin Heavy Defense's ban does not depend on that in any way. One does not stop the other from happening.
Jan. 24, 2016  4:28 AM
 
What I'm saying is Odin Heavy Needle might have the potential to do so.

Odin Heavy Needle could very well be similar to Odin Heavy Defense. If we ban Odin Heavy Defense, there could be something similar to it in our game. It's obvious that there's been no tournament experience with it, but if it actually is good, the same that happened with Odin Heavy Defense could happen with Odin Heavy Needle. Maybe testings wouldn't prove anything, but tournament experience would.
Jan. 24, 2016  4:41 AM
 
OK, so until then I see no reason not to ban Odin Heavy Defense, and if Odin Heavy Needle also proves to be similarly overpowered, then we could ban that too. A metagame revolving exclusively around selecting among Odin Heavy Needle or Odin Heavy Defense is far from ideal as well, so having both of them on at the same time for the next months seems like a nightmare to me as well.


It is sad that whenever I win or almost win a tournament, it is the indicator that something is messed up and we have to rectify the situation hah. Like when I realised that we should never process plastic events since it was just about who had the most money and access to the rarest parts. Hopefully this is not a trend, now that I do launch well ...
Jan. 24, 2016  5:16 AM
 
Hey all,

Kai-V posted this thread in the Committee forum after OHD completely dominated today's tournament in Montreal and another in London. However, I think it will be more interesting if we get the entirety of the community to chime in.

Odin Heavy Defense is a very powerful combination and a very safe choice due to its high odds of winning against many other kinds of Beyblades.

I think the position to ban it is a reasonable one, and it's something I've thought of many times before. But I don't know that banning OHD specifically is the right solution. I suspect that if we do this, Deathscyther Heavy Defense will just take its place, and while slightly less effective in all areas as OHD, it's still a very powerful "safe" choice.

The biggest issue in the game right now is, in my opinion, the ominpresence of Heavy. Without Heavy, Odin + Defense-based combos can be KO'd far more often. It could open up the possibilities of using many other Disks. Or it could just be Spread all the time. Who knows?

But I'm also of the opinion that right now, maybe we don't need to do anything. I really do think that Xtreme-based combos are viable against OHD. Of course, the problem is that there's a much higher skill barrier to using Xtreme than OHD. That's the main drawback.
Jan. 24, 2016  5:31 AM
 
I have to disagree with the fact of "Claw or Survive is certainly not as overpowered", I personally find Survive more over powered than Defense, I was hoping to not reveal this before Beyblade Shogatsu, but it seems like I have to, the movement on Survive when it's barely spinning causes my combos on Xtreme to burst more easily, while with defense this barely happens, it either gets KOed before it can get much contact, or it just gets OSed because of the weak launch, though with Survive this never happens, it's either burst finish for Odin, or KO for the attacker. If this is a real concern I might do some tests for you all, and maybe record a few rounds to get my point across.

The launch techniques you can use with Odin in certain situations makes it INVINCIBLE, therefore I think Odin as a whole should go. Also regarding Heavy, I'm personally sick of just using heavy for everything, it seems that now spread was overtaken by Heavy on Deathscyther too, so all the other disks have no use now. Just my opinion, but Heavy and Odin should just leave.
Jan. 24, 2016  5:31 AM
 
To be honest, I think we should ban Heavy. If we ban the combination OHD, there will be probably another combo such as DHD/Survive that will inevitably become a nuisance for the metagame. I don't know for the other bladers, but personally, I don't have any fun at all playing battles based only on the power of your launch.
Jan. 24, 2016  5:40 AM
 
personaly my experience today with OHD, I beat up any variant of Odin Heavy. the only time I lost with it its in mirror battle. I went 8-1 during the first round robin and finished first to pass in finals. I only used OHD in my 9 battles. for the finals I play my first match with OHD vs Valentin's OHD and lost this time. against Kai-V's OHD I decided to try something else because mirror battle become to be long. I lost with my WHC.
Jan. 24, 2016  5:42 AM
 
There also wasn't really any presence by Xtreme during the event today, though.
Jan. 24, 2016  5:49 AM
 
only MissingNo. have one I think. I just see him using it though
Jan. 24, 2016  5:49 AM
 
(Jan. 24, 2016  5:31 AM)MissingNo. Wrote: To be honest, I think we should ban Heavy. If we ban the combination OHD, there will be probably another combo such as DHD/Survive that will inevitably become a nuisance for the metagame. I don't know for the other bladers, but personally, I don't have any fun at all playing battles based only on the power of your launch.

Well, actually launch power is basically the only thing that really links you to whether you win a battle, because the rest is almost luck-based since you hope, every time, that you chose the right combination against the supposed customization you think your opponent will select. Launch power is almost the single aspect in which the player is really involved in a battle, so it is very important hah. How do you think I felt all these years not winning anything simply because I could not launch as strongly as everyone else ?


By the way, as I wrote in the first post, I initially thought that banning Heavy was definitely interesting but too god-playing, like Limited where we just voluntarily remove parts from the game to make it more interesting, so I rejected it as farfetched, but if it actually makes sense to you all, then I am really up for it. I just know I want something to happen to this metagame before the next Burst tournament, because it is so predictable that the same thing will keep happening. Even though Xtreme may win in tests, it is not exactly super reliable in general, and a lot less in a tournament atmosphere too.
Jan. 24, 2016  5:53 AM
 
I think its the best idea for the moment. Removed Heavy from the game will let Central Force Ring Spread and may be armed shine a lot more.
Jan. 24, 2016  6:37 AM
 
Is Odin Heavy Defense this much of a problem in other regions? At our latest burst tournament in North Carolina I know Deathscyther's were OSing Odin Heavy Defense and I was even able to KO/Burst it with Spriggan Heavy Defense (which makes me think that other attack combinations should be able to do the same).

I'm not going to overlook everyone else's problems though, one tournament doesn't mean much and it seems on multiple occasions Odin has dominated events. Although I'm not sure how much people would like this (especially those attending the event) but I personally think it would be best to wait till Beyblade Shogatsu next week to make a decision. Considering how many high skill players will be at the event it will be able to judge if Odin is really ban worthy, either they will have a response to it (which hopefully isn't just good against Odin because then that's a problem) or they won't and show Odin's dominance.

I will say that Heavy could potentially deserve a ban. Every combination uses it, there doesn't seem a draw back to not using. It's kinda lame to see the same disk on every combination considering this is a 3 part system, it feels like it does take some creativeness out of the game.

I would like to include that I definitely don't have as much experience in burst as everyone else here, but I just wanted to throw my opinion on this matter and share my experience.
Jan. 24, 2016  6:52 AM
 
I think Toronto has already experienced Odin Heavy Defense, no ? http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning-...pid1301927

And two or three frequent Toronto event goers have already posted their opinion about it here.
Jan. 24, 2016  9:01 AM
 
If you look at the burst winning combinations out side of Odin you see Valkyrie and Deathscyther. I honestly believe that we are in a triangle type format at the moment. Right now I think that the problem isn't Odin at the moment its the fact that no one consistently plays attack types at competitive events. If we get rid of Odin nothing will be there to keep attack types in check and then we may be having a similar discussion about Valkyrie heavy xtream or whatever variant is relevant at the time.
Jan. 24, 2016  3:17 PM
 
I like geetster's points, yet I also think the semblance of this situation to Libra's from early MFB goes beyond just one particular part or combination being extremely prevalent at tournaments:

Beywiki Wrote:Initially the WBO did not react to this rule change and did not impose any sort of weight limit, allowing heavy Libra customs to still be tournament legal. However, in December 2009 after countless tournaments were won, most through simply the use of a Libra-based custom such as MF Libra C145WB, and seeing that the then new RF, the one part that could stand up to these customizations was difficult to control, the following poll was conducted:
http://wiki.worldbeyblade.org/index.php?...Over_Libra

Just like in 2009, a rubber flat bottom was newly released, but many players had trouble controlling it, making the more mild Libra C145WB the go-to combo for most. Though I wasn't around during that time in MFB's history, I could never understand looking back how anybody could've had that much trouble beating MF Libra on WB, a plastic tip, with MF Pegasis 105/145RF, so I put it to everyone just stinking with Attack types early on. But being here to witness the repeat of this phenomenon in Burst between OHD vs _ _ X I think has given me a new insight.

Can anybody who played much later in MFB's history say that they'd have any trouble knocking out MF Libra C145WB with MF Pegasis 145RF to the point where they'd see it fit for a ban if they tried it today? Probably not if you've had as much practice with RF as many MFB players do now. Back then when RF was new to everyone, nobody had ever had any experience with such an aggressive Bottom in MFB up to that point, so I can definitely begin to understand what that must've been like based on how well and how many players have used Xtreme today so shortly after its release.

Looking back, I always thought banning Libra from the game despite the simultaneous existence of Pegasis and RF, especially when only plastic Defense Bottoms existed, was a pretty hastily made decision on the WBO's part; all I think was necessary was a little more time for players to practice and become better adjusted to using the new rubber flat tips, but maybe I'm just looking at this through broken rose-colored glasses.
Jan. 24, 2016  3:18 PM
 
odin heavy defense has been seen countered by chaos quite easily. Could someone test OHD against CRS?
Jan. 24, 2016  3:27 PM
 
Thought I was on a break but this is sorta big so back for a little bit m890//s~

Anyways, I'm not much of a Burst expert, but my go-to combo is Minoboros Spread Xtreme. I've found it to be the best KO combo, and while Odin Heavy Defense can hold its ground, a new Minoboros will surely KO or maybe burst it.
I suggest someone test MSX versus OHD, as I really dislike testing Bursts. (and I wanna go again)
Jan. 24, 2016  3:29 PM
 
(Jan. 24, 2016  3:18 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote: odin heavy defense has been seen countered by chaos quite easily. Could someone test OHD against CRS?

Chaos sucks against everything else, though, which ties into what Kai-V said about counters for F230CF/GCF in the first post:

(Jan. 24, 2016  1:15 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Because what people complained about the most with that combination of part is that it was overpowered and the few counters it had were not good at all against anything else.

Basically, I think we should just wait for Xtreme to become more prevalent at tournaments before deciding whether OHD or anything else really deserves a ban. Just like with MFB, RF existed before Libra was banned, but possibly due to its newness and lack of prevalence at tournaments, its full effectiveness didn't seem to be taken advantage of.
Jan. 24, 2016  3:30 PM
 
(Jan. 24, 2016  3:18 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote: odin heavy defense has been seen countered by chaos quite easily. Could someone test OHD against CRS?
Chaos isn't really a valid counter, if Chaos were to go against any other beyblade besides Odin I can guarantee that it would get destroyed.

I totally agree with Angry Face and Geetster99, both of them had amazing points.
Jan. 24, 2016  3:31 PM
 
true that. we should try it being banned at this next tournament, so if it is a bad idea, it won't ruin anime north.
Jan. 24, 2016  3:37 PM
 
I can definitely get behind hosting at least one event with a temporary ban on Odin Heavy Defense. See how it goes. And I think OHD is just a dominant combo; but we need to adjust to Xtreme like it appears we did with RF.

So I definitely agree with the points Geetster and Angry Lenny Face have pointed out, pointifully.
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