World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. World Beyblade Organization Discuss worldbeyblade.org

Ban Odin Heavy Defense ?

Jan. 26, 2016  3:07 AM
 
The OP should be able to convince me to want to ban it, instead it is just bland accusations because of 1 experience the Montreal community had. I think that tests and negatives expierences from competitive players with meta imbalances wouldn't be too much to ask for from such an impactful thread. Instead of having to read pages and pages of threads.


The Zero-G competitive meta was barely larger than burst as far as competitive parts. It'd make no since to test Basalt, when you have Reviser Reviser, you know? I actually feel free-er in burst format simply because everything is new and still coming.


EDIT: I am not insulting your competence, it just seems this case was rushed.
Jan. 26, 2016  3:26 AM
 
Oh, did you just read the first post ? Plenty of other valid reasons were posted in other messages after that.
Jan. 26, 2016  3:41 AM
 
(Jan. 26, 2016  3:07 AM)DRAGON KING EX Wrote: The OP should be able to convince me to want to ban it, instead it is just bland accusations because of 1 experience the Montreal community had. I think that tests and negatives expierences from competitive players with meta imbalances wouldn't be too much to ask for from such an impactful thread. Instead of having to read pages and pages of threads.


The Zero-G competitive meta was barely larger than burst as far as competitive parts. It'd make no since to test Basalt, when you have Reviser Reviser, you know? I actually feel free-er in burst format simply because everything is new and still coming.


EDIT: I am not insulting your competence, it just seems this case was rushed.

It's worth remembering that this was originally posted in the Committee forum, so it wasn't meant to be our case to the community for why a ban should go ahead. I moved it here to promote a discussion about it, not to persuade anybody. We'll make a decision on it after hearing what the community has to say.
Jan. 26, 2016  4:04 AM
 
Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme vs. Odin Heavy Defense
Prime Xtreme; Odin launched first all matches.
XHX: 14/20 (5 OF, 9 BF): 70% win rate.
OHD: 6/20 (3 SF, 1 OF, 2 BF): 30% win rate.
XHX average clicks lost: 1.7 clicks.
OHD average clicks lost: 2.65 clicks.

For me personally, I think I've learnt how to control Xtreme well. Xcalibur can consistently Burst and knockout Odin but it doesn't seem to be the case again Wyvern combos (I'm still really surprised it remains a viable option for defense!). I'm very interested to see if it remains it's success against Odin Heavy Defense in tournament matches though.

I've only had limited experience with Amaterios, but from what I had tested with 1234beyblade and pryus10000 a while ago, it preformed well, but was very inconsistent and not as reliable as Xcalibur against OHD.
Jan. 26, 2016  4:12 AM
 
I think I'm all for banning Odin+Heavy until the Dual layer system comes out. I still think there should be a trial ban tournament to see the results without it, but if that's not possible then go ahead and ban it. I just want OH to be unbanned as soon as the Dual layer system comes out so we can see how it competes against the DL system.

EDIT:
(Jan. 09, 2016  3:11 AM)Hato Wrote: Did testings with Amaterios Heavy Xtreme against Odin Heavy Defense:

Amaterios Heavy Xtreme vs Odin Heavy Defense

AHX: 13 (6 BF, 7 KO)
OHD: 7 (2 KO, 5 OS)

AHX win rate: 65%
How many combos like this would it take to stop a ban though? Just in theory.
Jan. 26, 2016  5:16 AM
 
(Jan. 25, 2016  1:10 PM)Kai-V Wrote: With a comparably strong launch, I honestly see no way for Tornado Stallers to even beat Odin Heavy Defense, let alone consistently do so. There is just no physics way this can be true if both launches have the same strength.
Using Deathscyther Spread Accel I am able to beat my own Odin Heavy Defense with varying consistency, though in my experience the Staller seems to win most of the time by remaining upright longer due to the shape of the Drivers or by Spread's LAD edging out the blockier Heavy.

Regardless of whether this is the case for anyone else, it doesn't really change the point I was trying to make about Odin Heavy Defense's counters being Skill/Strength-blocked. Xtreme takes practice and conditioning to use well, and you won't be able to outspin Odin Heavy Defense with Odin Heavy Blow or Deathscyther Spread/Ring Accel (or even Odin Heavy Defense itself for that matter) unless your launch is stronger than your opponent's.

(Jan. 25, 2016  8:23 PM)Ultra Wrote: Also i'd argue that if you banned odin everyone would just go back to using Deathscyther.

While that's probably true, Deathscyther has a weak spot Odin does not in that its contact points cause it to be Bursted far more easily. Several "Stationary Attack" combos like Valkyrie Heavy Survive were even used prominently at a few Toronto tournaments to exploit this weakness in Stationary Deathscyther combos.

(Jan. 26, 2016  1:39 AM)Angry Face Wrote: I'd personally like to see how Beyblade Shogatsu, Beyblade: Star City Assault, and Amaterios Atlanta Assault go before deciding whether to do anything about Odin and/or Heavy. After these tournaments, players will have had basically two months from Xcalibur Force Xtreme's December 26th release to receive and practice using Attackers with Xtreme. I think that would then be a reasonable time to reevaluate OHD's place in the metagame.

I would agree to this on most points except for Amaterios Atlanta Assault. Shogatsu and Star City Assault both occur earlier than AAA, and are also in regions where the Burst meta has had more time to develop (Toronto has had multiple Burst tournaments, Virginia has had at least two, and the event will likely feature players from NC and MD which have both held multiple Burst events). For many of the players in AAA, it would be their first Burst tournament (and maybe even first tournament in general) and may not be as accurate of a representation of the competitive Burst meta. It's also a good month away from now, meaning that this thread will have had time to cool off and grow a bit stale in the back of the minds of some Bladers, which may not be a good thing.

EDIT: I do realize this comment may sound insulting to some people and I apologize for it ahead of time. However the first Burst tournament in any given area is not usually representative of the Burst meta since for most people it is their first time ever playing with the series in a competitive environment (or even at all).

(Jan. 26, 2016  4:04 AM)Mitsu Wrote: XHX: 14/20 (5 OF, 9 BF): 70% win rate.

How are you guys getting XHX to burst Odin so much? Usually for me Xcalibur ends up being more of a KO Attack Layer, and if any Burst occurs for me it is Xcalibur that is Bursting. Not saying your testing is illegitimate, I'm just curious is all. Something similar happened during the F230 discussion where Toronto Bladers would get better results against F230GCF using BWD than with TB, while with East Coast Bladers it was the opposite and TB performed better against F230GCF.

(Jan. 26, 2016  4:12 AM)RagerBlade Wrote: I think I'm all for banning Odin+Heavy until the Dual layer system comes out. I still think there should be a trial ban tournament to see the results without it, but if that's not possible then go ahead and ban it. I just want OH to be unbanned as soon as the Dual layer system comes out so we can see how it competes against the DL system.

What if nothing in the (early) Dual Layer system can stop Odin? Nothing in the first half year of HWS could stop Metal System Libra. Until Lightning was released, the most powerful Attack Wheels remained Pegasis (which apparently was overlooked during the time) and Quetzalcoatl which were both from the Metal System.
Jan. 26, 2016  7:40 AM
 
I think RagerBlade is right. I'm also for a temporary ban of Odin and Heavy. Then we could do a few tournaments without it and if the results were the same only with a different combo like Deathscyther Spread Defense we can unban Odin again. But if the winning combos are very different from each other we could ban Odin and Heavy until the dual layers come out and then we'll see.
Jan. 26, 2016  8:04 AM
 
If we do ban the Odin+Heavy combo, it should only be unbanned once testing has shown it won't be so game-breakingly dominant. I'm not saying "oh ban it until it's hopelessly outclassed lolololol", but it shouldn't get released back into the tournament scene until we know it won't just dominate all the dual layers too.
Jan. 26, 2016  1:15 PM
 
(Jan. 26, 2016  5:16 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Jan. 26, 2016  4:12 AM)RagerBlade Wrote: I think I'm all for banning Odin+Heavy until the Dual layer system comes out. I still think there should be a trial ban tournament to see the results without it, but if that's not possible then go ahead and ban it. I just want OH to be unbanned as soon as the Dual layer system comes out so we can see how it competes against the DL system.
What if nothing in the (early) Dual Layer system can stop Odin? Nothing in the first half year of HWS could stop Metal System Libra. Until Lightning was released, the most powerful Attack Wheels remained Pegasis (which apparently was overlooked during the time) and Quetzalcoatl which were both from the Metal System.
Just ban it again. I just want it unbanned so we can see how it does in the DL system. If it still overpowers everything then it deserves to be banned again.
Jan. 26, 2016  2:39 PM
 
Guys, the ban was of course going to be temporary from the start, it would just be dumb to ban it forever.


To be fair with everyone, I have got news that Dual Layers will officially come out at the beginning of April 2016 and in the following months. That is earlier than planned but also in two whole months and a half, by the time we import them. In two months and a half, as many as six Burst-format tournaments could still happen with Odin Heavy Defense.
Jan. 26, 2016  9:26 PM
 
(Jan. 26, 2016  2:39 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Guys, the ban was of course going to be temporary from the start, it would just be dumb to ban it forever.


To be fair with everyone, I have got news that Dual Layers will officially come out at the beginning of April 2016 and in the following months. That is earlier than planned but also in two whole months and a half, by the time we import them. In two months and a half, as many as six Burst-format tournaments could still happen with Odin Heavy Defense.

The fact of it is, these parts have been recommended to many emerging players, because it is a competitive combo. A Lot of places have trouble acquiring Beyblade Burst to begin with. It would be wasteful to scrap the custom until it is almost useless when as Mitsu's and Hato's tests have shown, this thing is just a defense stamina hybrid, the highly anticipated Driver Xtreme has just recently came out, that will expand the attack option a huge boost. Give the meta a chance to grow. As you said, dual layers are coming out very soon, let things run their course. If communities have that much trouble with it until then, let them decide beforehand if they want to allow the combo, like some very active and competitive regions had done with F230. Let them see for themselves, I trust experienced users to not just want or not want to ban it just because they see an opportunity to abuse the meta.
I hate to say this and I am not trying to ignite an argument, but I personally think that players are jumping the bandwagon just because a committee member posted it and it was posted to the committee forum first. Therefore, it wouldn't be completely illogical to think that hey, 3 CM were at that Montreal tourney and this was posted to only a select few at first, so this will become a thing very soon, might as well just go with it instead of being labelled un-knowledgeable.
Jan. 26, 2016  9:35 PM
 
(Jan. 26, 2016  9:26 PM)DRAGON KING EX Wrote:
(Jan. 26, 2016  2:39 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Guys, the ban was of course going to be temporary from the start, it would just be dumb to ban it forever.


To be fair with everyone, I have got news that Dual Layers will officially come out at the beginning of April 2016 and in the following months. That is earlier than planned but also in two whole months and a half, by the time we import them. In two months and a half, as many as six Burst-format tournaments could still happen with Odin Heavy Defense.

The fact of it is, these parts have been recommended to many emerging players, because it is a competitive combo. A Lot of places have trouble acquiring Beyblade Burst to begin with. It would be wasteful to scrap the custom until it is almost useless when as Mitsu's and Hato's tests have shown, this thing is just a defense stamina hybrid, the highly anticipated Driver Xtreme has just recently came out, that will expand the attack option a huge boost. Give the meta a chance to grow. As you said, dual layers are coming out very soon, let things run their course. If communities have that much trouble with it until then, let them decide beforehand if they want to allow the combo, like some very active and competitive regions had done with F230. Let them see for themselves, I trust experienced users to not just want or not want to ban it just because they see an opportunity to abuse the meta.
I hate to say this and I am not trying to ignite an argument, but I personally think that players are jumping the bandwagon just because a committee member posted it and it was posted to the committee forum first. Therefore, it wouldn't be completely illogical to think that hey, 3 CM were at that Montreal tourney and this was posted to only a select few at first, so this will become a thing very soon, might as well just go with it instead of being labelled un-knowledgeable.

1. Whether or not players have made the decision to purchase Odin won't weigh on our decision. That said, Odin will not be useless if we ban its use with Heavy.

2. Dual Layers are not coming out until April, we don't know how many of them are coming out, or if any of them will help this situation. They could, they might, but we don't know. I think there are lots of reasonable counter-arguments to a ban, but I don't consider this – which is totally based on an unknown – one of them.

3. What bandwagon? There's been tons of healthy disagreement in this thread and even the Committee hasn't committed to a position on this. I suspect we all have different opinions about it, but we're seeking to do what's best for the active player-base we have. I think it's unfair to frame this in a them vs. us kind of way. It's not like just because Kai-V posted about it in the Committee room that we were going to definitively go ahead with it.

I think it's a good thing if we open discussions like this to the community as much as possible, so I'd rather the prospect of doing so not be soured.
Jan. 26, 2016  9:45 PM
 
After a lot more testing, I don't actually know exactly where I stand on this ban anymore. However, I stand behind the committee in whichever choice they make, you all know what you're doing. Love you <3


That being said, I'm here to present the evidence I have that could be related to this discussion.

There was also one round after this where vfx won by a late burst finish but my phone ran out of memory Unhappy
Valkyrie Force Xtreme vs. Odin Heavy Defense
Jan. 26, 2016  9:49 PM
 
I would personally ban it to see how tournaments go.

As for my thoughts on the bandwagon thing, eh... I have very mixed feelings about that but I think people could genuinely agree with the points Kai-V makes.
Jan. 26, 2016  9:53 PM
 
I don't see any evidence of bandwagoning, particularly since the Committee as a collective hasn't even stated an opinion on this. If you look at the first few posts of the thread we all had different ideas. There's no bandwagon to even get on.
Jan. 26, 2016  9:57 PM
 
(Jan. 26, 2016  9:49 PM)J.I.N.B.E.E! Wrote: I would personally ban it to see how tournaments go.

As for my thoughts on the bandwagon thing, eh... I have very mixed feelings about that but I think people could genuinely agree with the points Kai-V makes.

I am just saying some replies could be not completely unbiased. It seems like legitimate tests and proof have been ignored because it is made to seem like the spawn of satan, when I see no proof from the other side besides it being used in tournaments. After all, it is competitive, isn't it supposed to be used?


Bey Brad, a bandwagon is when, in this case, choices are not completely unbiased because of you feel like you should just go with or against something because your peers are. Even without valid proof.
Jan. 26, 2016  9:58 PM
 
(Jan. 26, 2016  9:53 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: I don't see any evidence of bandwagoning, particularly since the Committee as a collective hasn't even stated an opinion on this. If you look at the first few posts of the thread we all had different ideas. There's no bandwagon to even get on.

Yeah, I don't see any now looking at the thread properly. Probably thinking of something else.
Jan. 26, 2016  10:00 PM
 
(Jan. 26, 2016  9:57 PM)DRAGON KING EX Wrote: I am just saying some replies could be not completely unbiased. It seems like legitimate tests and proof have been ignored because it is made to seem like the spawn of satan, when I see no proof from the other side besides it being used in tournaments. After all, it is competitive, isn't it supposed to be used?


Bey Brad, a bandwagon is when, in this case, choices are not completely unbiased because of you feel like you should just go with or against something because your peers are. Even without valid proof.

I know what a bandwagon is. I think there are convincing arguments from both sides. To try to invalidate people's thoughtful positions by accusing them of being disingenuous or too easily persuaded is rude and uncalled for.

This is a conversation, not an argument. And as for bias: everyone is biased towards their own beliefs and positions, yourself included. We should take this into account when having any kind of discussion where there will inevitably be conflicting points of view.
Jan. 26, 2016  10:14 PM
 
(Jan. 26, 2016  10:00 PM)Bey Brad Wrote:
(Jan. 26, 2016  9:57 PM)DRAGON KING EX Wrote: I am just saying some replies could be not completely unbiased. It seems like legitimate tests and proof have been ignored because it is made to seem like the spawn of satan, when I see no proof from the other side besides it being used in tournaments. After all, it is competitive, isn't it supposed to be used?


Bey Brad, a bandwagon is when, in this case, choices are not completely unbiased because of you feel like you should just go with or against something because your peers are. Even without valid proof.

I know what a bandwagon is. I think there are convincing arguments from both sides. To try to invalidate people's thoughtful positions by accusing them of being disingenuous, biased, or just too easily persuaded is rude and uncalled for.

This is a conversation, not an argument. And as for bias: everyone is biased towards their own beliefs and positions, yourself included.
I posted my opinion and was called sour, so would you kindly explain how I am so disrespectful? You like the discussion, but don't like hearing my opinion? I am posting my views just like anyone else. You are the one making this enjoyable, from my point of view. I am not trying to show you the bandwagon, I am posting that I suspect one. The bandwagoning mentality is most times unconscious. You seem like your the one trying to force me to believe that my idea is invalid.


Of course everyone is bias towards their beliefs, but there can be bandwagon mentalities which are influenced by others, that can change your own beliefs. I am not going to call out specific posts or users, I am not trying to argue with you or public shame anyone, buddy. Just a discussion.

"I don't see any evidence of bandwagoning, particularly since the Committee as a collective hasn't even stated an opinion on this. If you look at the first few posts of the thread we all had different ideas. There's no bandwagon to even get on. "

If you don't see it, I am fine with that. I am not trying to show you the world. When authority announces somethings, it appears to instantly be valid. I see nothing of the sort with Odin Heavy Defense.


EDIT: A perfect example is Kei's joke custom, Gravity Perseus TH170HF/S. I advise you read that thread, pure bandwagoning.
Jan. 26, 2016  10:18 PM
 
This has become an argument unintentionally and no offense to the committee but the User themselves have presented a much better case than the people who are supposed to be the most knowledgeable. Again not trying to offend anyone. Bandwagon is always going to be a thing where people will believe the committee over smaller users.
Jan. 26, 2016  10:41 PM
 
Wah, this definitely degenerated. Nobody is smaller or more knowledgeable when it comes to tests and tournament experience : you were either there to do it or not. I can personally say that I have not ignored anyone, although I did take posts from people who had attended tournaments or at least clearly been here for a while and tested things more seriously than others, but that totally includes both sides. I did pay more attention to tournament experience reports than single-person tests too, and that is normal because things are more pristine at home alone than in the atmosphere of a tournament. But again, that includes opinions from both sides.


I really have no idea why there would be a sudden divide between Members and Committee Members. As you can see, I even capitalise Members all the time; I think as highly of all of our Members as the other staff members. You guys are great, and I think that there are people with both/different opinions both in the Committee and also in people as a whole.
Jan. 26, 2016  10:46 PM
 
I didn't call anyone sour; I simply thought that seeing the conversation degenerate into argument and finger-pointing as souring the discussion. I made the decision to publicize a staff-only thread in the hopes of getting better feedback from the community. If we're going to face accusations of bias or bandwagoning when we do this, we obviously might not want to do it again in the future.

The purpose of this thread isn't to convince anyone, as I already wrote; it's to present the idea of banning Odin Heavy Defense and solicit feedback on the idea. We are immensely grateful for whatever arguments and tests have been provided by the community so far, regardless of whatever option they are in favour of.

I don't even have a strong opinion on this ban either way – I am fine with whatever decision the community and rest of the Committee agree is best – and we didn't say that we were absolutely going to ban it, so I find the accusatory nature of the last few posts totally bizarre.

If you think that the only reason someone might think Odin Heavy Defense should be banned is because the idea came from the Committee, I don't know what to say. It's irrefutable that this custom is very powerful and has caused an imbalance in several local Beyblade communities where it's been adopted. What's up for debate is:

1. Is this imbalance caused by the custom itself or by player behaviour (basically, competitive trends)?
2. Is keeping Odin Heavy Defense as an option better for the competitive scene, or worse?

And probably, 3. Is it ideologically acceptable to ban any combination of parts this early in the metagame?

And on a final, personal note: we are real human beings and the only reason we're having this conversation in the first place is because we earnestly want what's best for the competitive Beyblade community. We want you all to be happy. So please try to treat us with that in mind.
Jan. 26, 2016  11:05 PM
 
In the future, I feel like you should make a public discussion first. After all arguments for each side have been stated, than go decide the final decision yourselves. It sounds like a much better way than discussing between yourselves first and than letting us give our arguments. Just my opinion on the matter.
Jan. 26, 2016  11:10 PM
 
(Jan. 26, 2016  11:05 PM)RagerBlade Wrote: In the future, I feel like you should make a public discussion first. After all arguments for each side have been stated, than go decide the final decision yourselves. It sounds like a much better way than discussing between yourselves first and than letting us give our arguments. Just my opinion on the matter.

We didn't really discuss it amongst ourselves. What you see in this thread is everything that happened. There were only a handful of posts made before we made this thread public. We didn't even really scratch the surface of the discussion and my first post in this thread was me announcing that we were making the thread public.

Kai-V was simply bringing it to the Committee to broach the discussion. I asked her if we could have the discussion publicly. She said yes. Ironically, if I had just posted a new thread saying we wanted to have this discussion, rather than being transparent (as I thought the community would appreciate) and simply making the staff discussion public, this wouldn't even be an issue.
Jan. 26, 2016  11:11 PM
 
I agree with RagerBlade, when Brad said that he had moved it from the committee forum, it felt like you guys had already made a decision and were just seeing what we had to say about it before finalizing it. Especially because it seemed the OP was rushed and didn't feel like our opinions really mattered anyways.


(Jan. 26, 2016  10:46 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: I didn't call anyone sour; I simply thought that seeing the conversation degenerate into argument and finger-pointing as souring the discussion. I made the decision to publicize a staff-only thread in the hopes of getting better feedback from the community. If we're going to face accusations of bias or bandwagoning when we do this, we obviously might not want to do it again in the future.

The purpose of this thread isn't to convince anyone, as I already wrote; it's to present the idea of banning Odin Heavy Defense and solicit feedback on the idea. We are immensely grateful for whatever arguments and tests have been provided by the community so far, regardless of whatever option they are in favour of.

I don't even have a strong opinion on this ban either way – I am fine with whatever decision the community and rest of the Committee agree is best – and we didn't say that we were absolutely going to ban it, so I find the accusatory nature of the last few posts totally bizarre.

If you think that the only reason someone might think Odin Heavy Defense should be banned is because the idea came from the Committee, I don't know what to say. It's irrefutable that this custom is very powerful and has caused an imbalance in several local Beyblade communities where it's been adopted. What's up for debate is:

1. Is this imbalance caused by the custom itself or by player behaviour (basically, competitive trends)?
2. Is keeping Odin Heavy Defense as an option better for the competitive scene, or worse?

And probably, 3. Is it ideologically acceptable to ban any combination of parts this early in the metagame?

And on a final, personal note: we are real human beings and the only reason we're having this conversation in the first place is because we earnestly want what's best for the competitive Beyblade community. We want you all to be happy. So please try to treat us with that in mind.

I took it as my posting my opinion just tainted the discussion, I guess I might've misunderstood it.
Prev
Page 5
Next