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Ban Odin Heavy Defense ?

Jan. 26, 2016  11:12 PM
 
That's not at all what happened. You can literally see the entire thread here. This was the thread that was in the Committee room. We were never even close to making a decision, as you can see.

The OP was rushed because it was meant for the Committee forum. I thought my explanation in my first post was clear enough, but maybe not.
Jan. 26, 2016  11:15 PM
 
It litterally lasted four or five posts in the Committee Room, two minutes altogether spread across four hours ? We had no actual discussion going and we had not decided anything, just like there is still no decision.

I wanted to ask the rest of the Committee first just to be sure I was not imagining an issue where there was none. I mean, I could have sat on top of my big victory of that day and just enjoyed the moment, but no, I saw that something was wrong and chose to instead be insecure about this win and ask whether a ban was even to be considered. This is obviously a big discussion to open in the public, so I just wanted to make sure it was serious at all.
Jan. 26, 2016  11:19 PM
 
Bey Brad Wrote:2. Is keeping Odin Heavy Defense as an option better for the competitive scene, or worse?

Chehen of FIREFIRE Wrote:probably competitive scene will become worse

@[Kai-V] can you add poll to this thread, so it will be easy to know everyone's option. i will tell non-active members [and memebers who don't like to post much] from my country to vote
Jan. 26, 2016  11:22 PM
 
I think we are more interested in arguments than a simple yes or no opinion, since it's easy to vote for an option without any real thought behind it (or even to vote if you've never played with any of these parts or Burst at all).
Jan. 26, 2016  11:28 PM
 
(Jan. 26, 2016  10:46 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: 1. Is this imbalance caused by the custom itself or by player behaviour (basically, competitive trends)?

It's very likely both - the more often the combination shows up in the Winning Combos thread, the more likely others are to pick up on it. The most attractive quality of Stamina-Defense hybrids across every generation of Beyblade has always been their ease of use to players of any skill level. Defensive Zombies, Synchrome Dragooon BD145/SA165RDF, Basalt Aquario TH170CS, etc., you name it. The basic premise has always been to shoot your Bey, and if your opponent can't knock yours out, you'll usually win by out-spin.

(Jan. 26, 2016  10:46 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: 2. Is keeping Odin Heavy Defense as an option better for the competitive scene, or worse?

I'm not sure right now, but I still think we should see how these next two tournaments go before we say for certain. Xcalibur and Xtreme really need to get some exposure before we decide if OHD is game-breaking.

(Jan. 26, 2016  10:46 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: And probably, 3. Is it ideologically acceptable to ban any combination of parts this early in the metagame?

Sure, if said combination is clearly overpowered, but as I said before, I'm not sure measures so extreme need to be taken in Burst just yet.
Jan. 26, 2016  11:28 PM
 
Here's my opinion so far, from what I've read:
(I do not own Odin or XFX, so this is based on mostly what I've seen here)

Data/theories/facts/idk:
OHD is a problem, though it can be countered by VFX, Chaos, and certain other Odin combos. DHD vs OHD is basically Phantom vs Duo.

My thoughts:
Ban Odin+Heavy, if anything. Semi-aggro OH combos are the next big thing, if OHD's success is any indication. Given the lack of left-spin Attack, evading VFX with OHN/OHB is a pretty solid strategy. Someone should test Odin [not Heavy] Defense/Blow/Needle against OHD's counters and DHD. I don't think OHD is horrifically OP, but OHN and OHB have potential for a much higher skill cap.
Jan. 26, 2016  11:35 PM
 
Again to see if it actually affects the meta game, I feel it would be best to host a tournament with a trial ban. That would help us see if it really is an all powerful combo.
Jan. 26, 2016  11:49 PM
 
(Jan. 26, 2016  11:35 PM)RagerBlade Wrote: Again to see if it actually affects the meta game, I feel it would be best to host a tournament with a trial ban. That would help us see if it really is an all powerful combo.

Yeah, what we need right now is more testing/tournament play to see what it's like with the bans in place. I'm mostly curious how banning Odin + Heavy will work out; if just downgrading from Heavy will stop Odin from being so dominant without making it worthless, that would be great.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:21 AM
 
I still can't really find a way to be able to support this ban. I just think that attack will ultimately become too strong and stamina will become unplayable. We can't forget the triangle that has been on the boxes of bey we've been buying all these years. If Attack > Stamina, Stamina > Defense and Defense > Attack then why is it a problem that attack may not be super consistent in beating attack. With the ban it would make defense a lot less played and eventually shifted out while attack come and crushes stamina and stamina mirrors would be determined on launch power (a thing that support the ban are opposed too). In my opinion the ban will not make everyone happy. There will be those who want a more aggressive format and will support the ban and those who want to be able to be more passive will be opposed to the ban.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:29 AM
 
I have to agree with Geetster if the best defense bey is banned then everyone will begin to use more attack causing stamina to be unplayable due to high volume of attack types.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:32 AM
 
Who actually plays attack on a consistent basis though? In my opinion a meta where attack is strong is a better meta than where a Defense/Stamina hybrid is OP. If players are forced to play attack, that is good. Tournaments go faster, and players are forced to get more skillful. The more skilled players, the more interesting the meta is.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:33 AM
 
Attack vs attack is not a skillful match.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:36 AM
 
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:32 AM)*Ginga* Wrote: Who actually plays attack on a consistent basis though? In my opinion a meta where attack is strong is a better meta than where a Defense/Stamina hybrid is OP. If players are forced to play attack, that is good. Tournaments go faster, and players are forced to get more skillful. The more skilled players, the more interesting the meta is.
Who wouldn't play attack when there isn't any Odin? Attack vs Attack in burst isn't very skillful. So you prefer to have one type of combination dominate? Attack vs Attack doesn't lead to skill, it leads to random bursts. This isn't MFB, we have a smaller selection of parts, and a honestly a smaller selection of actually decent parts. There isn't much you can change. We're gonna find the one dominant Attack combo (or multiple if they're equal), one dominant attack launch for the mirror and then the meta will eventually come down to burst. Sounds fun doesn't it?
Jan. 27, 2016  12:44 AM
 
A metagame with more Attack is a healthier metagame. This has always been true, for over a decade now ...


Is it necessary to have these avatars and hashtags ? Why must this cause so much drama ? This is not a humanist campaign like BlackLivesMatter or if you are on the side of the police. We can keep it in this thread as a civilised discussion.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:45 AM
 
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:44 AM)Kai-V Wrote: A metagame with more Attack is a healthier metagame. This has always been true, for over a decade now ...
How come you didn't ban synchromes, Duo, Basalt or anything that stopped attack meta?
Jan. 27, 2016  12:48 AM
 
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:45 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote:
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:44 AM)Kai-V Wrote: A metagame with more Attack is a healthier metagame. This has always been true, for over a decade now ...
How come you didn't ban synchromes, Duo, Basalt or anything that stopped attack meta?
Because they weren't OP ... You could actually counter those combos.

Except for Basalt, the consensus on that is that it should've been banned, but it doesn't matter now. Actually wait, it does! LEARN FROM THE PAST. Ban Odin now.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:48 AM
 
Because the metagame is not healthy but it is finished and no one combination dominates, at least ? Plus we did introduce the Limited format which essentially bans exactly those parts.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:48 AM
 
I'm pretty positive the best meta is where every type is used equally, but I may be wrong. It's always great to see different combos being used and that's the reason we're talking banning O+H or something. If it is banned than the players will actually use other combos instead of just spamming one combo consistently.

Attack combos are not based on skill in my opinion, because there's always a lot of luck. Attack v Attack battles are always really unpredictable whereas Stamina battles are pretty consistent. That's the reason people don't use them as often. It's because the outcome is not 100% guaranteed.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:50 AM
 
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:48 AM)RagerBlade Wrote: Attack combos are not based on skill in my opinion, because there's always a lot of luck.

Yes, that's correct! 100% correct. The types that require a damn video explaining how to effectively use them actually require LUCK! Genius!
Jan. 27, 2016  12:51 AM
 
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:48 AM)*Ginga* Wrote: Because they weren't OP ... You could actually counter those combos.

Just like you can counter Odin with Stamina and someone who knows how to use attack.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:52 AM
 
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:51 AM)Stormscorpio1 Wrote:
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:48 AM)*Ginga* Wrote: Because they weren't OP ... You could actually counter those combos.

Just like you can counter Odin with Stamina and someone who knows how to use attack.
^

This was literally the greatest and most logical post in this whole thread.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:53 AM
 
It was not, because it was said time and again that other Stamina combinations do not win against Odin Heavy Defense.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:54 AM
 
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:45 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote:
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:44 AM)Kai-V Wrote: A metagame with more Attack is a healthier metagame. This has always been true, for over a decade now ...
How come you didn't ban synchromes, Duo, Basalt or anything that stopped attack meta?

By "a metagame with more Attack", it's not meant that everything is Attack vs Attack. Odin isn't getting banned completely; any bans only exist to keep OHD and similar variants from dominating.

EDIT: For the record, I don't think OHD is the threat here. VFX seems to work against it, and there's also Chaos and other Odins. More aggressive Drivers with the Odin+Heavy combo are going to be evasive, defensive, and still have high Stamina, and those are the ones I'm worried about.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:58 AM
 
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:50 AM)*Ginga* Wrote:
(Jan. 27, 2016  12:48 AM)RagerBlade Wrote: Attack combos are not based on skill in my opinion, because there's always a lot of luck.

Yes, that's correct! 100% correct. The types that require a damn video explaining how to effectively use them actually require LUCK! Genius!
Honestly I don't know why you has to use the sarcasm to make me sound dumb when I go through the trouble to right "in my opinion" in all of my posts. It means that I could be wrong. If I'm wrong just say it to me kindly instead of making me feel like an idiot. Just a request. If you can't do it to someone as low as me, than I understand.

Anyways even if you do a proper sliding launch and tornado stall, the Bey is in full out aggression and could easily be self KOed or etc. It's probably 90% skill and the 10% luck is so the Bey it's self doesn't just spin out of control.
Jan. 27, 2016  12:58 AM
 
I would also personally just keep the parts seperate and not to ban any parts, just some specific combos. If any attack combo gets too strong, we could either do a trial ban on that attack combo on top of OHD or unban OHD to see what happens, just what I think anyway, for now.

[Image: amys2g.jpg]
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