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Ban Odin Heavy Defense ?

Jan. 27, 2016  2:29 AM
 
I was in the Hangouts that @[*Ginga*] mentioned earlier on. There seems to be a sweet spot launch (the "golden spot") that helps prevent Bursting. It isn't at an extremely low RPM, but in between a regular and soft launch that seems to vary for each blader. I know that others in the call had different ways of doing it, but at the end we had similar results. I need to pick up a new Xtreme to get some more testings as I do not think my current Xtreme will be able to hold on for too long in its prime state.

As I said before, AHX and XHX seem to be the competition for OHD, but I want to see how they perform against OHB, as it seems to be an OK substitute for OHD.
Jan. 27, 2016  3:03 AM
 
(Jan. 27, 2016  2:11 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote:
(Jan. 27, 2016  2:01 AM)Mitsu Wrote: I had actually forgot you guys played in a Burst tournament recently. I'm not sure how competitive it actually was but I definitely apologize for that.

In this thread, there are definitely some people I'm almost certain are speaking on Odin's behalf based off of others' tests and not own or tournament experience. I believe people should be doing either of the two themselves instead of making posts based off of other people's results.
Can I question the competitiveness of the tournament Kai-V won, the tournament that started this whole thread?

You can also question the competitiveness of the London tournament and Toronto's events as well.
Jan. 27, 2016  3:05 AM
 
Don't forget Maryland!
Jan. 27, 2016  5:01 AM
 
@[*Ginga*] Ain't no one exist who can question the competitiveness of Maryland tournaments #beybladespirit #bladefordays #ballsoharduniversity #geetster99 #stars #wombat #me
But in all seriousness, guys, chill out. Everyone who has been offended lately needs to realize that text is a non-verbal medium meaning that it is nearly impossible to convey tone or inflection. Try to take the bright side and hope that any comment that could be construed as offensive was meant in a joking manner. For everyone who has been posting these potentially offensive comments, take the time to read your own posts before you post them. Follow the golden rule. If you wouldn't like to have something like that said to you, don't say it to someone else. On the subject of competition, don't trash each other's communities. The simple fact that North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Connecticut, London, Montreal, and Toronto (sorry to anyone I'm forgetting) are hosting even semi-regular events right now is fairly incredible. A very strong argument could be made that these are the seven most competitive regions in the world considering even the advanced meta game knowledge of an average WBO member. Yes, we don't have any Burst rankings at the moment to back stuff up and the regional rankings thread has been dead for months, but accept the fact that at it's core Beyblade Burst is still Beyblade. By and large, the same tactics apply. So, if you respect someone's knowledge about Bakuten Shoot or MFB, you should respect their knowledge about Burst. Heck, if it's not someone who has currently impressed you with their knowledge help educate them rather than telling them to scram.

My thoughts on the ban:
Valkyrie Heavy Extreme can wreck it. In the one tournament I've played with extreme I was dissuaded from using OHD in the finals because of the Valkyrie Force Extreme threat.
Jan. 27, 2016  5:26 AM
 
Thanks for the big dose of positivity, Time m(_ _)m
Jan. 27, 2016  1:30 PM
 
So, some people seem to get varying results compared to others.
In the following thread people are posting very consistent win rates against OHD with VHX.

http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Xtreme-Discussion


In this thread about the ban some people seem to not be getting those kind of results, but some people are. My question is, how much of the varying test results do you guys think is the result of a difference in shooting skill?
Jan. 27, 2016  5:07 PM
 
(Jan. 27, 2016  5:02 PM)*Ginga* Wrote: I did some tests.

Valkyrie Force Xtreme vs Odin Heavy Defense
Valkyrie has never been used, from B-15
Odin has been used but not significantly
Xtreme is in a prime state
Redos done if sliding shoot not performed properly

Valkyrie: 9 wins (7 KO, 2 BF) (average 1.93 clicks lost, likely because it's brand new and has strong teeth)
Odin: 21 wins (12 OS, 6 KO, 3 BF) (average 2.3 clicks lost)

Odin win percentage: 70%

Detailed Results (Click to View)

I might test against OHB later on.

Note: I used a moderate launch leaning on the weak side.
Jan. 27, 2016  8:15 PM
 
(Jan. 27, 2016  5:07 PM)*Ginga* Wrote:
(Jan. 27, 2016  5:02 PM)*Ginga* Wrote: I did some tests.

Valkyrie Force Xtreme vs Odin Heavy Defense
Valkyrie has never been used, from B-15
Odin has been used but not significantly
Xtreme is in a prime state
Redos done if sliding shoot not performed properly

Valkyrie: 9 wins (7 KO, 2 BF) (average 1.93 clicks lost, likely because it's brand new and has strong teeth)
Odin: 21 wins (12 OS, 6 KO, 3 BF) (average 2.3 clicks lost)

Odin win percentage: 70%

Detailed Results (Click to View)

I might test against OHB later on.

Note: I used a moderate launch leaning on the weak side.

ok, it's getting confusing now. some got higher win rate with VFE and some got with OHD . i think i should avoid posting in this thread due to i don't have much experince with Odin i hope you guys will find solution
Jan. 28, 2016  4:35 AM
 
So how would everyone feel about doing a trial ban of Odin + Heavy at Beyblade Shogatsu? It's coming very soon, we can expect Xtreme to make a lot of appearances, and at least a few people from the Toronto community have expressed interest in the ban. Likewise, we'll pay close attention to the next Burst tournament that does allow Odin + Heavy and see what that looks like.

I feel like we don't have much to lose from trying it at just one tournament, especially if that community is OK with trying it out.
Jan. 28, 2016  4:57 AM
 
(Jan. 28, 2016  4:35 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: So how would everyone feel about doing a trial ban of Odin + Heavy at Beyblade Shogatsu? It's coming very soon, we can expect Xtreme to make a lot of appearances, and at least a few people from the Toronto community have expressed interest in the ban. Likewise, we'll pay close attention to the next Burst tournament that does allow Odin + Heavy and see what that looks like.

I feel like we don't have much to lose from trying it at just one tournament, especially if that community is OK with trying it out.
I'm with you 100%. A lot of competitiveness will be over there. Now I'm really excited to see the results and winning combos. Then we'll have to compare them to the next tournament without the ban.
Jan. 28, 2016  5:03 AM
 
k, a ban should even out the game. I say yes to the trial ban.
Jan. 28, 2016  5:16 AM
 
Surely if Xtreme is predicted to see high use throughout the tournament, Odin+Heavy shouldn't need a ban given the results people have shown regarding Xtreme combos beating OHD?

While I've never been to a tournament myself, wouldn't it be better to permit Odin+Heavy during Beyblade Shogatsu? If Xtreme has had a higher adoption rate due to the longer time since its release, perhaps the combo will be less of a threat during this tournament? It feels like it would be a wasted opportunity to not see the change Xtreme could have on OHD's viability in a competitive setting.

If OHD still proves to be an issue through this tournament, it definitely needs to be hit in tournaments afterwards. I can understand it may potentially dominate the tournament yet again and ruin some peoples' enjoyment but its a wasted opportunity to ban it in a tournament that is predicted to contain parts that could overthrow the combo.

Just my thoughts as an outsider though, you guys ultimately know better, haha.
Jan. 28, 2016  6:14 AM
 
If the community is okay with it I don't see why not. But, if Extreme is expected to make a lot of appearances wouldn't it be better to not ban the combo so that we can see how they do against each other in a tournament setting?
Jan. 28, 2016  7:01 AM
 
I'm opposed to it; ~Mana~'s thoughts reflect mine pretty accurately. A lot of people in Toronto have Xtreme now, so I think it is worth it to see what effect it has on our metagame, especially now that more time has passed since Xtreme's release and theoretically people should be more comfortable with it. It would be a shame to not give it one more chance in a situation where we know there should be several people who can counter OHD with it. The tournament is also in only a couple days; it's not terribly fair to impose a ban so soon before an upcoming event.

That said, I am still in the ban Heavy entirely camp, rather than Odin + Heavy. But that invites an even bigger discussion than this does.
Jan. 28, 2016  1:18 PM
 
i dont have any burst, but i agree, from a beytester's point of view. let odin+heavy stay for shogastu, then ban it for atlanta assault, and compare the results. that should give us a pretty definite answer on whether a ban is needed or not.

EDIT: you see, tests are tests, and have bias, no matter how hard you try to remove it. so i agree that this needs to be tested in a competitive format where there is stress, and all combos have a fair shot.
Jan. 28, 2016  1:40 PM
 
(Jan. 28, 2016  1:18 PM)mudorios Wrote: i dont have any burst, but i agree, from a beytester's point of view. let odin+heavy stay for shogastu, then ban it for atlanta assault, and compare the results. that should give us a pretty definite answer on whether a ban is needed or not.

EDIT: you see, tests are tests, and have bias, no matter how hard you try to remove it. so i agree that this needs to be tested in a competitive format where there is stress, and all combos have a fair shot.

This is a good idea but Beyblade Shogatsu is a big event and the WBO as an organization should give a fair chance to all bladers. Odin + Heavy should be used in NON COMPETATIVE PLAY. If it is allowed to be used at WBO sanctioned events it gives bladers no incentive to customize. If its at Shogatsu that will be the ONLY bey used by bladers with common sense.
Jan. 28, 2016  2:55 PM
 
(Jan. 28, 2016  1:40 PM)ZKamikaze Wrote:
(Jan. 28, 2016  1:18 PM)mudorios Wrote: i dont have any burst, but i agree, from a beytester's point of view. let odin+heavy stay for shogastu, then ban it for atlanta assault, and compare the results. that should give us a pretty definite answer on whether a ban is needed or not.

EDIT: you see, tests are tests, and have bias, no matter how hard you try to remove it. so i agree that this needs to be tested in a competitive format where there is stress, and all combos have a fair shot.

This is a good idea but Beyblade Shogatsu is a big event and the WBO as an organization should give a fair chance to all bladers. Odin + Heavy should be used in NON COMPETATIVE PLAY. If it is allowed to be used at WBO sanctioned events it gives bladers no incentive to customize. If its at Shogatsu that will be the ONLY bey used by bladers with common sense.

"If its at Shogatsu that will be the ONLY bey used by bladers with common sense."
That's just completely wrong. Have you seen the winning combinations list? There are way more other combos, like Deathscyther stall combos and Xtreme attack combos.
Jan. 28, 2016  4:02 PM
 
(Jan. 28, 2016  7:01 AM)Kei Wrote: I'm opposed to it; ~Mana~'s thoughts reflect mine pretty accurately. A lot of people in Toronto have Xtreme now, so I think it is worth it to see what effect it has on our metagame, especially now that more time has passed since Xtreme's release and theoretically people should be more comfortable with it. It would be a shame to not give it one more chance in a situation where we know there should be several people who can counter OHD with it. The tournament is also in only a couple days; it's not terribly fair to impose a ban so soon before an upcoming event.

That said, I am still in the ban Heavy entirely camp, rather than Odin + Heavy. But that invites an even bigger discussion than this does.

OK, those are all reasonable points. So let's approach it from another angle, then: let's leave everything legal and see if the results and reports from Shogatsu indicate that a ban could make the metagame better. We'll be counting on the Toronto members to carefully analyze their experiences Smile

I get what you mean on banning Heavy ... but since it's advantageous for almost all kinds of combos (rather than unfairly slanting the game towards one type), I think it's OK to tolerate it for now. Let's hope Victory Valkyrie onwards come with some new Disks designed by a team that knows everybody is using Heavy in official events.
Jan. 28, 2016  4:47 PM
 
It it does get allowed for Beyblade Shogatsu, then may no one restrict their use of Odin Heavy Defense, and I would go as far as asking judges and hosts to record which combinations are used in each match, by whom, how strong their launches were in comparison to the opponent, etc. You can just write the customizations in the OHD form, so this should not be too tasking.
Jan. 28, 2016  4:49 PM
 
This would be the first Toronto tournament that would be able to use Xtreme, so I would like to see how it fares against OHD and other combos. If OHD still dominates after this event, then I would say an Odin+Heavy ban should be imposed.

EDIT:

(Jan. 28, 2016  4:47 PM)Kai-V Wrote: It it does get allowed for Beyblade Shogatsu, then may no one restrict their use of Odin Heavy Defense, and I would go as far as asking judges and hosts to record which combinations are used in each match, by whom, how strong their launches were in compariso to the opponent, etc. You can just write the customizations in the OHD form, so this should not be too taskful.

Great idea! I do want to also compare the use of Xtreme to OHD to other combos, to see what the meta looks like after the release of a potentially (if not already(?)) top tier part.
Jan. 28, 2016  10:07 PM
 
Yeah I wasn't aware on Xtreme's challenge. I want to see how it does against OHD in Shogatsu. A trial ban can happen later if it's even necessary after this tourney.
Jan. 29, 2016  1:36 PM
 
(Jan. 28, 2016  2:55 PM)Myth Wrote:
(Jan. 28, 2016  1:40 PM)ZKamikaze Wrote:
(Jan. 28, 2016  1:18 PM)mudorios Wrote: i dont have any burst, but i agree, from a beytester's point of view. let odin+heavy stay for shogastu, then ban it for atlanta assault, and compare the results. that should give us a pretty definite answer on whether a ban is needed or not.

EDIT: you see, tests are tests, and have bias, no matter how hard you try to remove it. so i agree that this needs to be tested in a competitive format where there is stress, and all combos have a fair shot.

This is a good idea but Beyblade Shogatsu is a big event and the WBO as an organization should give a fair chance to all bladers. Odin + Heavy should be used in NON COMPETATIVE PLAY. If it is allowed to be used at WBO sanctioned events it gives bladers no incentive to customize. If its at Shogatsu that will be the ONLY bey used by bladers with common sense.

"If its at Shogatsu that will be the ONLY bey used by bladers with common sense."
That's just completely wrong. Have you seen the winning combinations list? There are way more other combos, like Deathscyther stall combos and Xtreme attack combos.

What I meant was that it is a safe combo not the ONLY good combo.
Jan. 31, 2016  3:03 AM
 
After attending Beyblade Shogatsu today, I would say it would be great to ban Odin+Heavy or Odin as a whole.

I've mentioned banning Odin as a whole before, on page 2:

(Jan. 24, 2016  3:45 PM)Hato Wrote: Odin Heavy Defense is definitely dominating the meta. As much as the whole combo can be banned, what about just banning Odin? Odin doesn't seem to be used much, if at all outside of Odin Heavy Defense. Just a thought, though. Smile

There was a ton of Odin combos today, mostly Odin Heavy Defense, but other Odin combos used were Odin Heavy Blow and Odin Heavy Accel. Odin Heavy Accel did good today, showing the versatility of Odin. Odin Heavy Defense defeated Amaterios Heavy Xtreme, and was able to beat Valkryie Heavy Xtreme quite consistently.

Banning Odin, either as a whole or Odin+Heavy, would be great as it literally dominated today. There were many OHD mirror matches, where it was just who had the better launch. If it wasn't a mirror match, then it was some other combo that mostly likely did not defeat it. The semi-finals was full of OHD, with only a couple matches where OHD lost, either in a mirror match, against Xtreme where it was 3-2 where it was xtremely close, or by somebody self KOing in the beginning for a round or 2.

Whatever it is, just get Odin out of the meta. Many Toronto members, if not all, are up for a ban on Odin. I think that Odin+Heavy would really degrade the use of Odin, but at the same time, Odin might find another use in the future or might already have one that I cannot think of right now. I think ORD is good, but cannot clearly remember it right now.

#banOdin
Jan. 31, 2016  3:48 AM
 
In regards to the events with Odin+Heavy at Beyblade Shogatsu today, I would like to share my perspective on the potential ban.

Today, the Odin+Heavy setup was definitely the star of the day and has been at our last few events in Toronto. A lot of my personal matches and others consisted of Odin Heavy Defense mirror matches, which had ultimately came down to launch power of the Blader.

Valkyrie/Xcalibur Xtreme combos definitely are OK against Odin Heavy Defense, but also are quite inconsistent. In just about all the matches Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme had won against Odin, they were all super close. Success also seems to depend on the actual user of the Beyblades in a lot of cases too. Odin Heavy Accel had preformed surprisingly well for some users, but it also does seem like it is a risk to take. It is no where near as dominant in a competitive Burst metagame.

But while Odin paired with Heavy is definitely the main issue in Toronto, I would very well like to see Odin banned completely. Combos like Odin Ring Defense wouldn't be as good as Odin Heavy Defense, but things like Ring could very well become the alternative for Heavy. Odin had sucked out the fun of Burst today and I honestly really didn't enjoy battling because of it.

[/rant]
Jan. 31, 2016  7:12 AM
 
What do you mean when you say "Success also seems to depend on the actual user of the Beyblades in a lot of cases too."
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