Xtreme Discussion

I was going to do benchmark tests with Accel, but I figured it would be kind of a waste of time and add more wear to the Valkyrie layer, we know that Accel is pretty much below 50% win rate, anything over 50% is what we are looking for. I also thought of using Quake attack as a benchmark, but that is a somewhat complex technique that is going to vary by user.

Equipment

Procedure

Xcaliber Heavy Xtreme vs. Odin Heavy Defense
Xcaliber Heavy Xtreme: 5 wins (4 BF, 1 KO)
Odin Heavy Defense: 15 wins (5 BF, 10 SF)
2 draw (All DBF)
Xcaliber Heavy Xtreme win %: 25%
Average clicks lost per round:
Xcaliber Heavy Xtreme: 2.35
Odin Heavy Defense: 2.6
Round by Round

Xcaliber, disappointingly, seems pretty awful. Maybe not quite as bad as this test suggests, but still pretty bad on this driver and disk setup anyway. Hopefully we can find a combo that makes it useful


Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme vs. Odin Heavy Defense
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 13 wins (9 BF, 4 KO)
Odin Heavy Defense: 7 wins (1 BF, 1 KO, 5 SF)
1 draw (DBF)
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme win %: 65%
Average clicks lost per round:
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme: 2.1
Odin Heavy Defense: 2.85
Round by Round

Valkyrie seems to do really well, it gets a lot of KO's and bursts and rarely bursts itself (when new anyway).



Spriggan Heavy Xtreme vs. Odin Heavy Defense
Spriggan Heavy Xtreme: 9 wins (8 BF, 1 KO)
Odin Heavy Defense: 11 wins (4 BF, 2 KO, 5 SF)
0 draw
Spriggan Heavy Xtreme win %: 45%
Average clicks lost per round:
Spriggan Heavy Xtreme: 2.3
Odin Heavy Defense: 2.65
Round by Round


For some reason, Spriggan doesn't seem to do as well on Xtreme as Valkyrie does. It seems to have a tendancy to burst itself sometimes, which I think is the difference between the two.



Minoboros Heavy Xtreme vs. Odin Heavy Defense
Minoboros Heavy Xtreme: 8 wins (3 BF, 5 KO)
Odin Heavy Defense: 12 wins (2 BF, 1 KO, 9 SF)
1 draw (DBF)
Minoboros Heavy Xtreme win %: 40%
Average clicks lost per round:
Minoboros Heavy Xtreme: 2.05
Odin Heavy Defense: 1.95
Round by Round


Valkyrie Ring Xtreme vs. Odin Heavy Defense
Valkyrie Ring Xtreme: 10 wins (8 BF, 2 KO)
Odin Heavy Defense: 10 wins (1 BF, 9 SF)
1 draw (DBF)
Valkyrie Ring Xtreme win %: 50%
Average clicks lost per round:
Valkyrie Ring Xtreme: 1.65
Odin Heavy Defense: 2.75
Round by Round



Valkyrie Spread Xtreme vs. Odin Heavy Defense
Valkyrie Spread Xtreme: 7 wins (5 BF, 2 KO)
Odin Heavy Defense: 13 wins (1 BF, 3 KO, 9 SF)
0 draws
Valkyrie Spread Xtreme win %: 35%
Average clicks lost per round:
Valkyrie Spread Xtreme: 1.9
Odin Heavy Defense: 2.55
Round by Round

The numbers were a little disappointing. I was hoping that we would finally be able to use something other than Heavy for attack. Ring and Spread definitely make the bey faster, but they just don't hit quite as hard it seems. Heavy and Ring seem to be pretty close and when you hit that exact right launch speed with Ring, it can do really well (notice the latter half of the test with it). It seems to me, though, that Heavy edges it out by a little bit. Force = Mass x Acceleration, so both mass and speed determine how much force is directed at the defending bey. It seems to me that the weight of Heavy adds a little bit more to the equation than the speed of Ring does. There is the advantage of not taking as much of a hit, being lighter. You get knocked back a bit more as opposed Bursting yourself, but this can also translate into getting KO'ed. So, from what I have seen so far, I would give Heavy the edge by a little bit, but this is only one test by one person, so I am interested to see what other people get for results and have to say about it.
Awesome! I love these tests! Could you do some defense with xtreme testing?
So Valk is still the best attack wheel we've gotten. Otherwise, Xtreme doesnt seem to be disappointing or surprising in these result. Can you try Miniboros ____ Xtreme?
Xcalibur is definitely for OHKO, or even (potentially) OHBF. Valkryie seems like the safer option, Bursting and KOing OHD more than Spriggan, and I'm going to throw this out right now: I think that layers with the sharper teeth, will perform better.

Could you please test out Minoburos Heavy Xtreme, please? Interested to see how it performs (due to sharp teeth).

Thanks for the testings, Zoroaste! Smile
Curious why you used Heavy for all of these? Seems to me like Ring or Spread would result in faster movement?
Yeah good point, definitely will need to try that. I figured the old tried and true Heavy would be good for starters though. Definitely interested to see what will be better on Xtreme, you are right, it might not be Heavy
(Dec. 31, 2015  5:53 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: Curious why you used Heavy for all of these? Seems to me like Ring or Spread would result in faster movement?

Couldn't the argument be made that you want more weight so it hits harder? Like with wide defence and HMC in plastics. Also don't all attack combos now opt to use Heavy anyway?
Can you maybe test MHX against OHD. Really surprised how poorly XHX did...
(Jan. 06, 2016  10:15 AM)Ultra Wrote:
(Dec. 31, 2015  5:53 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: Curious why you used Heavy for all of these? Seems to me like Ring or Spread would result in faster movement?

Couldn't the argument be made that you want more weight so it hits harder? Like with wide defence and HMC in plastics. Also don't all attack combos now opt to use Heavy anyway?

I feel like the lighter weight should help Xcalibur, due to how it's shaped. I think it's supposed to KO, not Burst.
(Jan. 06, 2016  10:15 AM)Ultra Wrote:
(Dec. 31, 2015  5:53 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: Curious why you used Heavy for all of these? Seems to me like Ring or Spread would result in faster movement?

Couldn't the argument be made that you want more weight so it hits harder? Like with wide defence and HMC in plastics. Also don't all attack combos now opt to use Heavy anyway?

Wide Defense is actually 15g versus Ten Heavy's 17g. It's only 1g heavier than Ten Wide's 14g. Wide Defense wasn't popular because it was heavy.

The purpose of using Wide Defense is for outward weight distribution, reducing recoil (by filling in the huge gaps of certain attack rings) while also adding some smash potential (impact of metal on plastic + the notches in Wide Defense).

Or, as Beywiki put it:

Quote:Wide Defense is an incredibly popular WD choice among Smash Attack enthusiasts and is commonly considered to be the best WD choice for Smash Attackers. The popularity is unsurprising; it seemingly has all of the features of a perfect Smash Attack part. It is lightweight and the little weight it has is focused around the perimeter of the Beyblade. Both of these features attribute to a high movement speed.

Heavy has been the Disk of choice for attack so far, but we haven't had a grip tip until now. With a plastic tip, using Heavy has the advantage of maintaining the spin velocity better than the other Disks, with few detriments.

However, Xtreme is a different beast. Movement speed is more important than maintaining spin velocity, so it should theoretically be better if its lighter weight with more outward weight distribution. I haven't had the chance to try it out myself yet (sadly!), so I can't say definitively if there's a better choice than Heavy. But I definitely don't think it should be considered by default to be the best choice.
I concur with Brad. Also the heavier the hit, the more recoil the Bey takes, especially with a friction tip like Xtreme. So in this case speed > power.
Thanks so much Zoroaste! Was really hoping the speed increase could compensate for the loss of mass, but seems like it just isn't enough. With Valkyrie, at least.

Ugh, I'm not gonna have Xtreme for at least a week ...
Hm, could you try with Amaterios too, and post them either here or in the Amaterios Discussion thread ? It seems to get a huge boost of Attack thanks to Xtreme. Also perhaps tests against Wyvern, especially if you also get a good win percentage with Amaterios.
I still only have the one Amaterios that I wanna save for tourneys if it becomes viable for something. I will test with it though as soon as I win (or maybe even buy at this point >: / ) another one. I have a bunch of tries I will use tonight, hopefully I can win. If I do, I will test it asap.
Edit: I also have a new defensive combo that might be really good, I will be formally testing and posting about that soon also
To me, Valkyrie Force Xtreme seems to self-burst a lot less than Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme. It also looks like it has more KO.... (OF?) potential, maybe because of it's speed or possibly just the weight distribution.

There could be better options, its still to early to say for sure. I've used heavy, spread, ring, armed, central, oval, wing, and force. From what i've seen so far, force appears to have the best synergy with this combo.

I'll post some tests as soon as I have some spare layers in mint condition.
Heavy definitely outperformed Force by a great margin in the videos of Amaterios ___ Extreme that have been floating around but that might just be because Heavy is rounder and thus fits better with Amaterios' unusual order of rotational symmetry. Force's 4 is a lot more in sync with Valkyrie's 2 than Amaterios' 5.
Yeah I definitely think Force is worth a test with Valkyrie. It may be just the right weight and shape tho to get more KO's and bursts and less self bursts. I tried it after you mentioned it, ZachBob, and it definitely warrants a full testing. It's one of the next on my list to test
I got the chance to try out Kai-V's Xtreme the other day. Maybe it's just because I haven't had to deal with a rubber flat tip since Storm Pegasis came out, but jeez, this thing seems quite difficult to control at full launch power. And unlike other formats, hitting the walls can be a death sentence since it causes you to lose clicks often. It also frequently jumped over the ridge and self-KO'd.

Will take a lot of practice and some wear ...
Yeah definitely, it took me a while to get used to it, like a pretty long while. Lol. Remember that video I made with the proto that I made? Yeah, my views on it are totally different now that I have figured out how to launch it. Lol
Well, looking forward to practicing a lot ... when I get Xtreme in a week :')
Valkyrie Force Xtreme VS Odin Heavy Defense:

Valkyrie win rate: 17/20 - 85%
Odin win rate: 3/20
Notes: Odin launched first in the first 10 rounds, then alternated.

Why did I use Force? Because it looked better. But i did try it with Ring and it was more difficult to maintain the flower pattern because it moves faster.
Nice, thanks for the tests. I was going to test Force next because ZachBob said it was really good. My informal test had Valkyrie winning 4/5 rounds. It seems like it might be the perfect weight and shape to burst the other bey without bursting yourself
Awesome! Thanks for the tests cannon! Were either of the layers used worn at all? Honestly, I thought there would be as many ko's as bursts, if not more.
I just want to propose a question

From my personal tests

Low spin Odin > Fast spin valk

High spin odin < low spin Valk

Same spin odin = same spin Valk

That's just my theory so i was wondering what spin power you used for your tests between VFX and OHD @[Cannon], just want to know if this theory also works with rubber drivers not just heavy accel vs heavy defense.