I had meant success with Xtreme depends on how experienced the user is with it and even then is still a super risky, inconsistent choice.
Ban Odin Heavy Defense ?
Well, this was predictable. I do not know if a full Odin ban is the best solution, but banning Odin+Heavy-or-Ring also sounds awkward.
I am curious to get @[1234beyblade]'s view on yesterday's tournament, since he has the launch and everything and did not place. Also, as I had mentioned, if anybody has the full data on how many times Odin was used, Odin Heavy Defense specifically, what it was up against, how many Attackers were used and against what, etc.
I am curious to get @[1234beyblade]'s view on yesterday's tournament, since he has the launch and everything and did not place. Also, as I had mentioned, if anybody has the full data on how many times Odin was used, Odin Heavy Defense specifically, what it was up against, how many Attackers were used and against what, etc.
I only used OHD in my block 3 times, then i went DHA, it was also very stressful to host the tourney and participate but in the finals used OHD once and i ended up 0-7 (OHD vs OHA is the match i lost with it).
So basically the problem with people losing with OHD is just in their launch, it's either launched too hard or too light, there is just a slight margin in between where OHD is just unbeatable by any attack type. The only real counter to OHD was OHA, DHD did okay though OHD still had the upper hand. There is also one more problem I have with OHD, in my block, that's all people used and Lani was the only one to use VHA and she lost 2/3 of the matches she used it in (one of the matches she won was between a complete new comer), both me and ThermalG managed to win. Lastly... OHD is just a battle of launch power, super lame if you ask me, and honestly because of Odin still being a thing at shogatsu it kind of ruined the whole fun of the tourney, which was a real bummer.
I'm on board of complete Odin ban right now
If you're wondering what i used in the finals, i used AHX, XHN, NHD, RHX, and XHX
(some of them were just "just for the hell of it" combos)
So basically the problem with people losing with OHD is just in their launch, it's either launched too hard or too light, there is just a slight margin in between where OHD is just unbeatable by any attack type. The only real counter to OHD was OHA, DHD did okay though OHD still had the upper hand. There is also one more problem I have with OHD, in my block, that's all people used and Lani was the only one to use VHA and she lost 2/3 of the matches she used it in (one of the matches she won was between a complete new comer), both me and ThermalG managed to win. Lastly... OHD is just a battle of launch power, super lame if you ask me, and honestly because of Odin still being a thing at shogatsu it kind of ruined the whole fun of the tourney, which was a real bummer.
I'm on board of complete Odin ban right now
If you're wondering what i used in the finals, i used AHX, XHN, NHD, RHX, and XHX
(some of them were just "just for the hell of it" combos)
Contrary to what others have said after their experience at Beyblade Shogatsu yesterday, I for one found it to be an immensely fun and fascinating event. It was so interesting to see how each player reacted to the presence and idea of Odin Heavy Defense. Here is a breakdown of each of my BeyBattles:
Wins
1. Odin Heavy Blow (Kei) vs. Valkyrie Heavy(?) Claw (New User)
2. Odin Heavy Defense (Kei) vs. Deathscyther Heavy Defense (Mitsu)
3. Odin Heavy Defense (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Defense (Voldie)
4. Valkyrie Force Zephyr (Kei) vs. Xcalibur Heavy Needle (1234beyblade)
5. Wyvern Heavy Claw (Kei) vs. Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme (Beyonomics)
6. Valkyrie Force Zephyr (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Accel (pyrus10000)
7. Chaos Ring Defense (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Defense (JesseObre)
8. Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Defense (LMAO)
+ 1 win by forfeit when a new user left after losing one BeyBattle
Losses
1. Deathscyther Heavy Defense (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Defense (BLASTERJOKER)
2. Odin Heavy Defense (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Defense (Mitsu)
Odin Heavy Defense Overall Usage in Kei's BeyBattles: 40% (8/20 Combinations)
Before I delve into this issue and my experience at this event more deeply, I'd like to state that yes, we should ban something. The question is only what, and I don't think it's Odin + Heavy.
At this event the overwhelmingly prevalent attitude was to ban OHD, ban Odin, etc.. There was an almost defeatist atmosphere that pervaded the entire tournament, but I couldn't entirely understand why.
I ran into the Odin Heavy Defense vs. Odin Heavy Defense mirror match a couple times: the first time was against Voldie when I was confident I had a stronger launch than her (more on this issue later), and the second was in the finals against Mitsu when I was unsure of whether he'd go for Attack or Stamina after having lost with Deathscyther Heavy Defense in the Round Robin against me. When I ended up losing the mirror match to Mitsu, I decided that it wasn't worth it anymore–especially in the finals–to continue using OHD. It's safe, but not that safe when everybody is using it.
In my experience, Xtreme combos like Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme and Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme can both reliably Burst Finish or KO Odin Heavy Defense if the user's skill level is high enough. There's been talk about finding the sweet spot in how moderately you launch OHD to counter these Attack types, but to me that only exemplifies the skill needed to use it properly; someone who has never played before would not necessarily be able to find the 'proper' launch when playing against a skilled Attack type user. Therefore, OHD is not necessarily a "shoot and win" type of combo if this is true. But even in the hands of someone who can find this perfect launch, I'm skeptical that it becomes unbeatable. Whenever a specific launch technique is brought into the equation when talking about a potentially game-breaking combo, I always begin to become skeptical because as a community we have always embraced the idea that if a user is skilled, they deserve to win. Hence, the existence of Attack types untouched by bans on things like rubber flat tips for being too overpowered in the hands of a skilled user. The issue is different than that because we are talking about a Stamina/Defense hybrid which is inherently easier to use, but it's a slippery slope to go down once we start trying to justify the ban on something because it is supposedly unbeatable with only a specific launch technique.
It is worth noting that @[Beyonomics] went undefeated in his block (5-0) using (almost?) exclusively Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme, winning several times against Odin Heavy Defense. And in the finals against LMAO, I defeated OHD using the same combo 3-2. LMAO also used it during block play and had success against OHD.
Additionally, I had success with Chaos Ring Defense in this tournament against OHD. I saved it for near the end of the finals because I didn't want to tip anyone off that I was intending to use it as a counter to OHD. After seeing Jesse play with OHD all day, my battle against him came up and I was able to win the battle 3-2. Chaos is indeed risky, and Odin can burst it more easily if you have a stronger launch and can shoot it in a way that allows for Odin to move more aggressively on Defense and land more powerful blows, but again this also involves some level of skill on the part of the user. If you can't do this, there's a good chance you will lose.
Deathscyther Heavy Defense can also arguably counter OHD, but it is admittedly quite even. I lost 3-2 versus BLASTERJOKER's OHD, but it's important to note that in the first round I literally bounced my Beyblade out of the stadium because I was trying to conceal my Beyblade until the last second ... lol.
In the end, some people intentionally avoided using it, some people abused it because it is of course a great combo, some people had success against it, some didn't, and some felt it was an insurmountable challenge due to the strong launch power needed to win the mirror match. It's a complex issue.
Ultimately, despite outlining some of the counters to this combination above, the reason I believe something should be done is because if history has told us anything, Stamina/Defense hybrids (or in the case of Basalt or F230CF/GCF during the MFB era, combinations/parts that exhibited extremely high proficiency in Stamina, Defense, and Attack to some degree) ruin diversity in any Beyblade metagame. Odin's design is too powerful in both categories; Deathscyther in comparison is a much smarter design because it has a similar amount of Stamina, but also is easier to burst. Heavy on the other hand doesn't bolster any specific type–it bolsters all of them–but in doing so hinders diversity in the selection of competitively useful Disks we have available to us.
As I mentioned before, banning Heavy entirely invites a much larger discussion because the effects of doing so would be much more widely felt across the entire metagame. This is a discussion I would like us to have because it is still a very real issue, but in the meantime I will propose something different: a full ban on Odin. Doing so will instantly make Attack more viable, Stamina more balanced with the perfectly flawed Deathscyther likely sitting at the top, and Defense also becoming more viable because there would no longer be a Stamina/Defense hybrid like OHD available that is as impervious to damage as OHD is. DHD would take its place, but it should be easier to deal with not only with conventional Attack types, but 'stationary' ones like Valkyrie Spread Survive as well.
The point I raised above about something like Valkyrie Spread Survive potentially becoming viable again was brought home for me last night after talking with @[cadney] and @[Lani]. Essentially, they expressed to me how hopeless they felt because they could not match the launch strength of other male players using Odin Heavy Defense despite having played Beyblade since last August now. Inevitably, this will always be an issue in Beyblade and in WBO Organized Play because we allow people of any age or sex to play in our events; some people will be stronger than others, it's as simple as that. But the reason why something like Odin Heavy Defense brings to the forefront a larger issue is because prior to its introduction, players like them felt like they could still have a chance despite their weaker shot by using combos like VSS that did not necessarily require a high RPM to win. These combos can be beaten reliably by other means, but it allows some players to catch others using "safe" combos like DHD off-guard and win via Burst Finishes. In the case of OHD, these types of combos can still work, but not necessarily to a degree where they make the user feel like they still have a fighting chance most of the time.
When such a method of achieving victory exists for players like this, the game itself becomes more appealing to newcomers instantly. The best players will always win most of the time, but it becomes harder to entice new players to stick around if they will inevitably be destroyed for a long time until they can reach the level of the top level players by combos like Odin Heavy Defense. At the same time however, we also do want to protect the competitive integrity of the game. There should be some kind of learning curve and skill-barrier, and that should also be expected by new players. But not one that feels insurmountable, especially because of physical reasons like launch strength. It's a fine line to walk.
Acknowledging that Odin Heavy Defense does have an at least decently reliable counter in Xtreme combos when used by skilled players, this whole discussion then becomes in some ways a discussion about how much we value the competitive and skilled aspect of the game versus the approachability and "fun" factor of a metagame where new players can find some success. We could call it a day and say that "Xtreme combos can defeat OHD well enough, so why ban Odin or Heavy?", but in the end Beyblade isn't a professional sport where only the top end talent can play at the highest level with everyone else who has reached that level. So, we have to be concerned about approachability, drawing new players in, and making both the game and the community more diverse.
All of that said, I think simply banning Odin entirely for now is what will bring us much closer towards finding that right balance.
Wins
1. Odin Heavy Blow (Kei) vs. Valkyrie Heavy(?) Claw (New User)
2. Odin Heavy Defense (Kei) vs. Deathscyther Heavy Defense (Mitsu)
3. Odin Heavy Defense (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Defense (Voldie)
4. Valkyrie Force Zephyr (Kei) vs. Xcalibur Heavy Needle (1234beyblade)
5. Wyvern Heavy Claw (Kei) vs. Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme (Beyonomics)
6. Valkyrie Force Zephyr (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Accel (pyrus10000)
7. Chaos Ring Defense (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Defense (JesseObre)
8. Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Defense (LMAO)
+ 1 win by forfeit when a new user left after losing one BeyBattle
Losses
1. Deathscyther Heavy Defense (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Defense (BLASTERJOKER)
2. Odin Heavy Defense (Kei) vs. Odin Heavy Defense (Mitsu)
Odin Heavy Defense Overall Usage in Kei's BeyBattles: 40% (8/20 Combinations)
Before I delve into this issue and my experience at this event more deeply, I'd like to state that yes, we should ban something. The question is only what, and I don't think it's Odin + Heavy.
At this event the overwhelmingly prevalent attitude was to ban OHD, ban Odin, etc.. There was an almost defeatist atmosphere that pervaded the entire tournament, but I couldn't entirely understand why.
I ran into the Odin Heavy Defense vs. Odin Heavy Defense mirror match a couple times: the first time was against Voldie when I was confident I had a stronger launch than her (more on this issue later), and the second was in the finals against Mitsu when I was unsure of whether he'd go for Attack or Stamina after having lost with Deathscyther Heavy Defense in the Round Robin against me. When I ended up losing the mirror match to Mitsu, I decided that it wasn't worth it anymore–especially in the finals–to continue using OHD. It's safe, but not that safe when everybody is using it.
In my experience, Xtreme combos like Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme and Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme can both reliably Burst Finish or KO Odin Heavy Defense if the user's skill level is high enough. There's been talk about finding the sweet spot in how moderately you launch OHD to counter these Attack types, but to me that only exemplifies the skill needed to use it properly; someone who has never played before would not necessarily be able to find the 'proper' launch when playing against a skilled Attack type user. Therefore, OHD is not necessarily a "shoot and win" type of combo if this is true. But even in the hands of someone who can find this perfect launch, I'm skeptical that it becomes unbeatable. Whenever a specific launch technique is brought into the equation when talking about a potentially game-breaking combo, I always begin to become skeptical because as a community we have always embraced the idea that if a user is skilled, they deserve to win. Hence, the existence of Attack types untouched by bans on things like rubber flat tips for being too overpowered in the hands of a skilled user. The issue is different than that because we are talking about a Stamina/Defense hybrid which is inherently easier to use, but it's a slippery slope to go down once we start trying to justify the ban on something because it is supposedly unbeatable with only a specific launch technique.
It is worth noting that @[Beyonomics] went undefeated in his block (5-0) using (almost?) exclusively Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme, winning several times against Odin Heavy Defense. And in the finals against LMAO, I defeated OHD using the same combo 3-2. LMAO also used it during block play and had success against OHD.
Additionally, I had success with Chaos Ring Defense in this tournament against OHD. I saved it for near the end of the finals because I didn't want to tip anyone off that I was intending to use it as a counter to OHD. After seeing Jesse play with OHD all day, my battle against him came up and I was able to win the battle 3-2. Chaos is indeed risky, and Odin can burst it more easily if you have a stronger launch and can shoot it in a way that allows for Odin to move more aggressively on Defense and land more powerful blows, but again this also involves some level of skill on the part of the user. If you can't do this, there's a good chance you will lose.
Deathscyther Heavy Defense can also arguably counter OHD, but it is admittedly quite even. I lost 3-2 versus BLASTERJOKER's OHD, but it's important to note that in the first round I literally bounced my Beyblade out of the stadium because I was trying to conceal my Beyblade until the last second ... lol.
In the end, some people intentionally avoided using it, some people abused it because it is of course a great combo, some people had success against it, some didn't, and some felt it was an insurmountable challenge due to the strong launch power needed to win the mirror match. It's a complex issue.
Ultimately, despite outlining some of the counters to this combination above, the reason I believe something should be done is because if history has told us anything, Stamina/Defense hybrids (or in the case of Basalt or F230CF/GCF during the MFB era, combinations/parts that exhibited extremely high proficiency in Stamina, Defense, and Attack to some degree) ruin diversity in any Beyblade metagame. Odin's design is too powerful in both categories; Deathscyther in comparison is a much smarter design because it has a similar amount of Stamina, but also is easier to burst. Heavy on the other hand doesn't bolster any specific type–it bolsters all of them–but in doing so hinders diversity in the selection of competitively useful Disks we have available to us.
As I mentioned before, banning Heavy entirely invites a much larger discussion because the effects of doing so would be much more widely felt across the entire metagame. This is a discussion I would like us to have because it is still a very real issue, but in the meantime I will propose something different: a full ban on Odin. Doing so will instantly make Attack more viable, Stamina more balanced with the perfectly flawed Deathscyther likely sitting at the top, and Defense also becoming more viable because there would no longer be a Stamina/Defense hybrid like OHD available that is as impervious to damage as OHD is. DHD would take its place, but it should be easier to deal with not only with conventional Attack types, but 'stationary' ones like Valkyrie Spread Survive as well.
The point I raised above about something like Valkyrie Spread Survive potentially becoming viable again was brought home for me last night after talking with @[cadney] and @[Lani]. Essentially, they expressed to me how hopeless they felt because they could not match the launch strength of other male players using Odin Heavy Defense despite having played Beyblade since last August now. Inevitably, this will always be an issue in Beyblade and in WBO Organized Play because we allow people of any age or sex to play in our events; some people will be stronger than others, it's as simple as that. But the reason why something like Odin Heavy Defense brings to the forefront a larger issue is because prior to its introduction, players like them felt like they could still have a chance despite their weaker shot by using combos like VSS that did not necessarily require a high RPM to win. These combos can be beaten reliably by other means, but it allows some players to catch others using "safe" combos like DHD off-guard and win via Burst Finishes. In the case of OHD, these types of combos can still work, but not necessarily to a degree where they make the user feel like they still have a fighting chance most of the time.
When such a method of achieving victory exists for players like this, the game itself becomes more appealing to newcomers instantly. The best players will always win most of the time, but it becomes harder to entice new players to stick around if they will inevitably be destroyed for a long time until they can reach the level of the top level players by combos like Odin Heavy Defense. At the same time however, we also do want to protect the competitive integrity of the game. There should be some kind of learning curve and skill-barrier, and that should also be expected by new players. But not one that feels insurmountable, especially because of physical reasons like launch strength. It's a fine line to walk.
Acknowledging that Odin Heavy Defense does have an at least decently reliable counter in Xtreme combos when used by skilled players, this whole discussion then becomes in some ways a discussion about how much we value the competitive and skilled aspect of the game versus the approachability and "fun" factor of a metagame where new players can find some success. We could call it a day and say that "Xtreme combos can defeat OHD well enough, so why ban Odin or Heavy?", but in the end Beyblade isn't a professional sport where only the top end talent can play at the highest level with everyone else who has reached that level. So, we have to be concerned about approachability, drawing new players in, and making both the game and the community more diverse.
All of that said, I think simply banning Odin entirely for now is what will bring us much closer towards finding that right balance.
![[Image: beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/VLksgt2k/beybase-signature-is-beyblade-a-sport-Article.jpg)
I wanted to chime in a little bit about why I think OHD is a problem. I'm coming from the perspective of:
a) A newcomer who got into Beyblade relatively recently
b) A girl
When I first started playing Beyblade in August, the game was thrilling and fun because even though I was new to it and just learning how to launch, there was an element of chance that made tournaments feel worth entering for me. I could learn while playing in tournaments, and I could also feel like I had a fighting opportunity to win some of my matches. I would sometimes burst the opponent's bey; it would feel so fun and exciting! At one point, I managed to go undefeated in a round robin using mostly Valkyrie Spread Survive. It was a silly good time, being as new as I was. Learning how to shoot and also feeling like I could have some success in the game was so encouraging. It made me want to buy new parts, to practice more at home, to better my launch.
Then, Odin arrived. I learned how to shoot it and had some success with it when people used other combinations. Then, everyone caught on and started using OHD. And every single time I went up against someone stronger than me who used OHD, I lost. I started becoming very conscious of my physical handicap: the problem was, I was a girl. My arm and shoulder muscles weren't strong enough to achieve the RPM of my male opponents, so mirror matches were absolutely hopeless for me. To make sure I faced a handicap based on strength, I did some tests at home with a boy who has no prior experience with Beyblade. He and I both shot OHD on the same type of launcher. He had virtually no experience, and I had months worth: because he has strong arms, he outspun me. He achieved that in mirror matches almost every time.
So, of course, I started feeling hopeless. I came up against OHD in my block at Shogatsu 3 times and lost all 3 of those matches.
I went up to several experienced players and asked what I should do, and if they had any advice for me. I received the same answer every time: that because I'm a girl who isn't shooting as strong or as precisely as everyone else, there was nothing I could do this tournament except try risky attack types and pray.
One might argue that I could just get better at shooting extreme, and I do eventually WANT to achieve that -- but the learning curve with that part is far rougher than I've experienced with other Beyblades I've picked up. So I start asking myself: is this fun right now? If I brought another girl friend to a tournament and said "BEYBLADE IS GREAT PICK UP BEYBLADE, START PLAYING WITH ME" and she got outshot every single time by stronger boys using OHD, would she start playing Beyblade? Or would she leave feeling hopeless? Like her arms would never be strong enough to contend with that thing?
I feel like something must be done to attract new, more diverse players. A balancing of the metagame makes Beyblade more fun. It makes it thrilling, guessing what your opponent might use instead of just going into the match knowing "of course he's gonna use OHD."
Maybe one day, more accessible, reliable counters will exist against the combo. But for right now, with something as disposable (because of quick wear down) and difficult to pick up as VHX being the main choice, I don't know how we can entice new people, especially new diverse people, to enjoy Beyblade Burst.
a) A newcomer who got into Beyblade relatively recently
b) A girl
When I first started playing Beyblade in August, the game was thrilling and fun because even though I was new to it and just learning how to launch, there was an element of chance that made tournaments feel worth entering for me. I could learn while playing in tournaments, and I could also feel like I had a fighting opportunity to win some of my matches. I would sometimes burst the opponent's bey; it would feel so fun and exciting! At one point, I managed to go undefeated in a round robin using mostly Valkyrie Spread Survive. It was a silly good time, being as new as I was. Learning how to shoot and also feeling like I could have some success in the game was so encouraging. It made me want to buy new parts, to practice more at home, to better my launch.
Then, Odin arrived. I learned how to shoot it and had some success with it when people used other combinations. Then, everyone caught on and started using OHD. And every single time I went up against someone stronger than me who used OHD, I lost. I started becoming very conscious of my physical handicap: the problem was, I was a girl. My arm and shoulder muscles weren't strong enough to achieve the RPM of my male opponents, so mirror matches were absolutely hopeless for me. To make sure I faced a handicap based on strength, I did some tests at home with a boy who has no prior experience with Beyblade. He and I both shot OHD on the same type of launcher. He had virtually no experience, and I had months worth: because he has strong arms, he outspun me. He achieved that in mirror matches almost every time.
So, of course, I started feeling hopeless. I came up against OHD in my block at Shogatsu 3 times and lost all 3 of those matches.
I went up to several experienced players and asked what I should do, and if they had any advice for me. I received the same answer every time: that because I'm a girl who isn't shooting as strong or as precisely as everyone else, there was nothing I could do this tournament except try risky attack types and pray.
One might argue that I could just get better at shooting extreme, and I do eventually WANT to achieve that -- but the learning curve with that part is far rougher than I've experienced with other Beyblades I've picked up. So I start asking myself: is this fun right now? If I brought another girl friend to a tournament and said "BEYBLADE IS GREAT PICK UP BEYBLADE, START PLAYING WITH ME" and she got outshot every single time by stronger boys using OHD, would she start playing Beyblade? Or would she leave feeling hopeless? Like her arms would never be strong enough to contend with that thing?
I feel like something must be done to attract new, more diverse players. A balancing of the metagame makes Beyblade more fun. It makes it thrilling, guessing what your opponent might use instead of just going into the match knowing "of course he's gonna use OHD."
Maybe one day, more accessible, reliable counters will exist against the combo. But for right now, with something as disposable (because of quick wear down) and difficult to pick up as VHX being the main choice, I don't know how we can entice new people, especially new diverse people, to enjoy Beyblade Burst.
Great points guys. In that light especially, I fully agree. I think we should definitely always be mindful of how attractive we are to newcomers and do whatever we can to foster their adoption of the game, while, of course, at the same time, maintaining the integrity of it. This is our organization, and at the end of the day, we should do whatever we can to make it the most fun for all involved. As much as I think I might do pretty well at an Odin launching competition, that is not the game we love. The game we love has 3 types that counter each other and once a bey starts to trancend those types too much, it takes the fun out of it. That's when it's time to go.
This is partly why I wanted a ban to be introduced before the weekend, because we were at a convention and the experience is terrible for newcomers if they understand that they cannot win unless they have one part or its arguable counter.
Cadney nailed it; where is the fun when every single of your matches reminds you that you are just weaker than everybody ?
![[Image: h6sIxPy.png]](https://i.imgur.com/h6sIxPy.png)
This is kind of a slippery conversation to be having to be honest. Whilst I can certainly agree that OHD is by far the best Defense / Stamina combo we've got at the moment (and probably will have for a while it seems) It's also been proven to be beaten fairly consistently by attack types using Xtreme in the hands of those skilled enough to use it well.
This is probably going to be controversial but I'll say it anyway, it seems as if having OHD in the game is good for the skilled players who can use it to win all the time and terrible for unskilled players (like me) who have a weaker launch and can't rely on Xtreme attack types. This being the case this conversation seems to be filled with the latter type of player throwing a fit because they know they'll never catch up and I can understand that fully. Even I'm getting sick of seeing OHD constant use, more out of wanting some actual thinking to be done by other players than anything else though.
The real question here is, do we ban OHD, just Odin or just Heavy in order to make the game easier for the unskilled players to find a more equal footing? Of course we shouldn't. That's like asking if we should ban Usain Bolt from running because no one can match him for speed. It's ridiculous to even think it.
That being said, I do think that something needs to be done in order to encourage people to actually try something else rather than just relying on OHD, it's getting annoying but other than that it's fine to use.
Having a ban put in place won't do much (especially with the dual layers being released this year) and the only thing OHD as a combo really does is separate the good players from the bad. That doesn't mean it needs to be banned.
I know this is going to come off as me being slightly elitist or whatever but that's just not true. Competitive play should be just that, competitive, it loses that when you start banning parts in order to make the game easier and this is coming from someone who's never beaten someone in an OHD mirror match. I'm not going to go around blaming the combos or the parts when really the issue lies with me just not being at that skill level yet.
This is probably going to be controversial but I'll say it anyway, it seems as if having OHD in the game is good for the skilled players who can use it to win all the time and terrible for unskilled players (like me) who have a weaker launch and can't rely on Xtreme attack types. This being the case this conversation seems to be filled with the latter type of player throwing a fit because they know they'll never catch up and I can understand that fully. Even I'm getting sick of seeing OHD constant use, more out of wanting some actual thinking to be done by other players than anything else though.
The real question here is, do we ban OHD, just Odin or just Heavy in order to make the game easier for the unskilled players to find a more equal footing? Of course we shouldn't. That's like asking if we should ban Usain Bolt from running because no one can match him for speed. It's ridiculous to even think it.
That being said, I do think that something needs to be done in order to encourage people to actually try something else rather than just relying on OHD, it's getting annoying but other than that it's fine to use.
Having a ban put in place won't do much (especially with the dual layers being released this year) and the only thing OHD as a combo really does is separate the good players from the bad. That doesn't mean it needs to be banned.
I know this is going to come off as me being slightly elitist or whatever but that's just not true. Competitive play should be just that, competitive, it loses that when you start banning parts in order to make the game easier and this is coming from someone who's never beaten someone in an OHD mirror match. I'm not going to go around blaming the combos or the parts when really the issue lies with me just not being at that skill level yet.
![[Image: tumblr_nq5xdfNyMr1so23mto2_500-1_zpsesgsvb15.gif]](http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/claram/media/tumblr_nq5xdfNyMr1so23mto2_500-1_zpsesgsvb15.gif.html)
Kei and cadney pointed out a major keypoint; how the competitive Burst metagame looks in front of others, which there were many of at Shogatsu. At Beyblade Shogatsu the other day, Burst seemed like a game where everybody uses one combo which consistently has mirror matches that comes down to launch power. We want people to be encouraged to play.
Without Odin, Burst would be super balanced. That's the type of game we'd like. Where no one combo is dominant over the entire game.
Without Odin, Burst would be super balanced. That's the type of game we'd like. Where no one combo is dominant over the entire game.
(Feb. 01, 2016 2:35 PM)Mitsu Wrote: Kei and cadney pointed out a major keypoint; how the competitive Burst metagame looks in front of others, which there were many of at Shogatsu. At Beyblade Shogatsu the other day, Burst seemed like a game where everybody uses one combo which consistently has mirror matches that comes down to launch power. We want people to be encouraged to play.
Without Odin, Burst would be super balanced. That's the type of game we'd like. Where no one combo is dominant over the entire game.
Well, that I can understand. Maybe for events like that where it's not just an event but a place for new members to play too then OHD the combo could be banned (just for those kind of events) but I honestly think we've kinda missed a trick.
- I don't think it'll be too long before we find an "anti-OHD" combo so banning Odin, Heavy or OHD at this stage seems kind of a waste.
- For other tournaments where it's less about advertising and bringing new people in, it should be fine.
If I'm honest, I don't care what happens either way. It'll be exciting to see where we all end up on this issue, I was just pointing out that we need to keep the game competitive. You can't do that of you're going to ban things because skilled users are too good with them.
The "waiting" excuse needs to stop, we waited 3 months for new releases to counter odin very well, yet look where we are, it's still the OP beyblade of the meta game, waiting is not an excuse, when something new comes out that counters it then it's going to get unbanned, though since history repeats itself, we probably wont see that happening until season 2 of the anime.
I think the point about approachability is important, and I think that viewing the issue through that lens helps us understand this a bit better. But I also worry it's getting misconstrued into wanting to make adjustment's to the games rules solely for the benefit of beginners, which I don't think anyone is actually proposing.
The root of the issue is this. At its best, Beyblade is a game that utilizes two types of skills: launching skill (a combination of dexterity and strength) and decision-making ability. When deciding what type of combination you're going to use for a match, you have to combine the knowledge of what you think your opponent might use with the compromises you're willing to make. Are you willing to use a high-stamina custom that might get knocked around too easily? Or are you willing to go all-in on attack? Beyblade is at its best when each choice comes with its own unique set of compromises.
Odin is a no-compromise Layer. It's simultaneously the best Defense and best Stamina Layer in the game, and unless you're playing Attack there is basically no reason not to use it. I certainly believe the Burst metagame was more interesting before its arrival, and its complete dominance has honestly dampened my enthusiasm for playing both at home and competitively.
And because Odin is such an obvious choice, you end up with multiple players logically concluding that they should all use it. While Attack-types provide a viable path to defeating it, the odds are not overwhelming and it's a high-skill endeavour versus Odin's near-zero-skill requirement. So Odin requires no compromise and no skill to win with except sheer strength.
(Although, I was surprised to see that people continued to use OHD in mirror matches even though they didn't feel they had the launch strength to win — I would advise that those of you who don't have strong launches probably have the most to gain from mastering Attack-type launches, and you should really put the work in!)
Going back to the Valkyrie Spread Survive argument, I don't think that the most interesting part of that story was that the combo was accessible to newcomers to use and win with; what made it interesting is that its presence exerted an immense amount of pressure, and forced players to make a choice: are they willing to take the easy path and use a Deathscyther-based Stamina-custom, knowing that Valkyrie Spread Survive could tear them down if they encountered it? Although Deathscyther Spread Survive was popular then, the same applies to Deathscyther Heavy Defense; it has an obvious strength (high-stamina) and an obvious weakness (high recoil and particularly vulnerable to Valkyrie-based Bey).
(Also, I'm partial to Valkyrie Heavy Claw over Spread Survive, but I digress.)
I think there's another perspective that we can look at this issue from, though, that makes the similarities to the Libra situation even clearer. The issue is not that Odin is undefeatable; the issue is that the entire metagame has become centered around either using Odin or defeating Odin. Even if a combo like Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme can beat OHD, we will still end up with tournaments that are centered around either using VHX or OHD, with both players hoping they make the right decision and that the winds of chance blow in their favour.
Any guesses about when a part might come and dethrone Odin are just that: guesses. What we need, I think, are parts with much higher stamina but much lower defense than Odin and Defense. But who knows when they will come? Odin came out in October and we've been waiting since then. And here we are, almost in February.
After all of the reports I've read here and from just chatting with attendees, it's obvious that the omnipresence of Odin Heavy Defense is creating a really bad experience for everyone. If there's widespread support for a ban from one of our most active communities, after a large event where there was plenty of opportunity for a counter to emerge, and we see OHD dominating the Winning Combos for every region ... I think the decision we need to make is pretty clear.
I find this frustrating. I posed a question earlier in the thread asking if people were against this just because they were ideologically opposed to banning parts. I count myself in that camp; ultimately, I like to imagine Beyblade as a closed gameplay system, and I'd ideally like to see everything existing within that system available for Bladers to use (barring obvious exceptions, like the Burst BeyStadium lol). A ban is something I would've liked to avoid above all else.
But if it's making our events less fun and less competitive, and our events are our prerogative for existing in the first place, then I think we need to make the right decision that fosters a fun and skillful Beyblade community. I'm willing to support banning Odin based on everyone else's thoughts and my own, admittedly less-intense experiences.
The root of the issue is this. At its best, Beyblade is a game that utilizes two types of skills: launching skill (a combination of dexterity and strength) and decision-making ability. When deciding what type of combination you're going to use for a match, you have to combine the knowledge of what you think your opponent might use with the compromises you're willing to make. Are you willing to use a high-stamina custom that might get knocked around too easily? Or are you willing to go all-in on attack? Beyblade is at its best when each choice comes with its own unique set of compromises.
Odin is a no-compromise Layer. It's simultaneously the best Defense and best Stamina Layer in the game, and unless you're playing Attack there is basically no reason not to use it. I certainly believe the Burst metagame was more interesting before its arrival, and its complete dominance has honestly dampened my enthusiasm for playing both at home and competitively.
And because Odin is such an obvious choice, you end up with multiple players logically concluding that they should all use it. While Attack-types provide a viable path to defeating it, the odds are not overwhelming and it's a high-skill endeavour versus Odin's near-zero-skill requirement. So Odin requires no compromise and no skill to win with except sheer strength.
(Although, I was surprised to see that people continued to use OHD in mirror matches even though they didn't feel they had the launch strength to win — I would advise that those of you who don't have strong launches probably have the most to gain from mastering Attack-type launches, and you should really put the work in!)
Going back to the Valkyrie Spread Survive argument, I don't think that the most interesting part of that story was that the combo was accessible to newcomers to use and win with; what made it interesting is that its presence exerted an immense amount of pressure, and forced players to make a choice: are they willing to take the easy path and use a Deathscyther-based Stamina-custom, knowing that Valkyrie Spread Survive could tear them down if they encountered it? Although Deathscyther Spread Survive was popular then, the same applies to Deathscyther Heavy Defense; it has an obvious strength (high-stamina) and an obvious weakness (high recoil and particularly vulnerable to Valkyrie-based Bey).
(Also, I'm partial to Valkyrie Heavy Claw over Spread Survive, but I digress.)
I think there's another perspective that we can look at this issue from, though, that makes the similarities to the Libra situation even clearer. The issue is not that Odin is undefeatable; the issue is that the entire metagame has become centered around either using Odin or defeating Odin. Even if a combo like Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme can beat OHD, we will still end up with tournaments that are centered around either using VHX or OHD, with both players hoping they make the right decision and that the winds of chance blow in their favour.
Any guesses about when a part might come and dethrone Odin are just that: guesses. What we need, I think, are parts with much higher stamina but much lower defense than Odin and Defense. But who knows when they will come? Odin came out in October and we've been waiting since then. And here we are, almost in February.
After all of the reports I've read here and from just chatting with attendees, it's obvious that the omnipresence of Odin Heavy Defense is creating a really bad experience for everyone. If there's widespread support for a ban from one of our most active communities, after a large event where there was plenty of opportunity for a counter to emerge, and we see OHD dominating the Winning Combos for every region ... I think the decision we need to make is pretty clear.
I find this frustrating. I posed a question earlier in the thread asking if people were against this just because they were ideologically opposed to banning parts. I count myself in that camp; ultimately, I like to imagine Beyblade as a closed gameplay system, and I'd ideally like to see everything existing within that system available for Bladers to use (barring obvious exceptions, like the Burst BeyStadium lol). A ban is something I would've liked to avoid above all else.
But if it's making our events less fun and less competitive, and our events are our prerogative for existing in the first place, then I think we need to make the right decision that fosters a fun and skillful Beyblade community. I'm willing to support banning Odin based on everyone else's thoughts and my own, admittedly less-intense experiences.
![[Image: 2hdvatw.png]](https://i64.tinypic.com/2hdvatw.png)
Well, I don't think we need to go back that far And parts that came out after Odin will still be legal, of course, so it probably wouldn't look much like that.
And parts that came out after Odin will still be legal, of course, so it probably wouldn't look much like that.
(Feb. 01, 2016 5:43 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: Well, I don't think we need to go back that far
Yeah, I was joking LOL. Though I do miss when Kerbeus Central Defense was relevant, or Wyvern for that matter.
EDIT: Actually, I think Wyvern is still used.
Wyvern would be used a lot more often if not for Odin, probably.
Honestly, it's probably best to just ban Odin in general at this point, as that is causing the issue.
Heavy is widely used in multiple combos, and benefits all types of Beyblades to the point where almost all combos make it a staple to be using. In my opinion, it's staple use would compel me to vote in favour of also having Heavy banned as it would open up the metagame to more than just Heavy combos, but that opens a whole new topic completely.
The things you need to look at for an Odin ban are;
I believe Odin altogether would not have a substantial impact on any combos other than OHD, and therefore it doesn't particularly matter whether "it isn't overpowered on type"; it's ban serves a massive benefit to the community and the metagame in general. Banning Odin in conjunction with another part is also rather clunky to do, and it's possible other Disks or Drivers will create a similar deadly combo.
Give Odin a trial ban altogether for a month or two to see how the metagame changes. And while we're at it, seriously consider banning Heavy since its wide use makes other Disks extremely pointless, and it'd be nice to see some diversity really...
Heavy is widely used in multiple combos, and benefits all types of Beyblades to the point where almost all combos make it a staple to be using. In my opinion, it's staple use would compel me to vote in favour of also having Heavy banned as it would open up the metagame to more than just Heavy combos, but that opens a whole new topic completely.
The things you need to look at for an Odin ban are;
- It's dominance in the metagame, which is pretty evident after Shogatsu (with the exception of Xtreme combos).
- The impact it's ban would have on other combos in other types, which seems to be little-to-no impact.
I believe Odin altogether would not have a substantial impact on any combos other than OHD, and therefore it doesn't particularly matter whether "it isn't overpowered on
Give Odin a trial ban altogether for a month or two to see how the metagame changes. And while we're at it, seriously consider banning Heavy since its wide use makes other Disks extremely pointless, and it'd be nice to see some diversity really...
Based on all the alternatives presented throughout the thread, ban it and move forward.
This process has gone on for too long. It has succeeded in getting the community involved and creating an interesting discussion but now it's time to finalize this decision.
Correct, it was Hato and LMAO who used OHD.
This process has gone on for too long. It has succeeded in getting the community involved and creating an interesting discussion but now it's time to finalize this decision.
(Feb. 01, 2016 7:09 AM)Kei Wrote: It is worth noting that @[Beyonomics] went undefeated in his block (5-0) using (almost?) exclusively Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme, winning several times against Odin Heavy Defense.
Correct, it was Hato and LMAO who used OHD.
![[Image: pdiNFiz.png?1]](https://i.imgur.com/pdiNFiz.png?1)
sorry but I can't stay without posting
I agree with ~Mana~ Odin should be banned but Heavy should be banned too. It Heavy is used too much [all of the nows beys customs use it and Winning Combos have heavy [mostly heavy]
so I think WBO should ban Odin and Heavy for sometime
I agree with ~Mana~ Odin should be banned but Heavy should be banned too. It Heavy is used too much [all of the nows beys customs use it and Winning Combos have heavy [mostly heavy]
so I think WBO should ban Odin and Heavy for sometime
![[Image: 2aj5k50.jpg]](https://i68.tinypic.com/2aj5k50.jpg)
![[Image: 1fftwi.jpg]](https://i66.tinypic.com/1fftwi.jpg)
![[Image: ig94b9.jpg]](https://i63.tinypic.com/ig94b9.jpg)
(Feb. 02, 2016 1:29 AM)FOUNTAIN-FIRE Wrote: sorry but I can't stay without posting
I agree with ~Mana~ Odin should be banned but Heavy should be banned too. It Heavy is used too much [all of the nows beys customs use it and Winning Combos have heavy [mostly heavy]
so I think WBO should ban Odin and Heavy for sometime
I would vote against banning Heavy, as that would heavily affect attack. Other types would probably have minimal suffering, but Attack would take a blow from that.
Odin deserves a ban for sure.
(Feb. 02, 2016 1:33 AM)Hato Wrote:(Feb. 02, 2016 1:29 AM)FOUNTAIN-FIRE Wrote: sorry but I can't stay without posting
I agree with ~Mana~ Odin should be banned but Heavy should be banned too. It Heavy is used too much [all of the nows beys customs use it and Winning Combos have heavy [mostly heavy]
so I think WBO should ban Odin and Heavy for sometime
I would vote against banning Heavy, as that would heavily affect attack. Other types would probably have minimal suffering, but Attack would take a blow from that.
Odin deserves a ban for sure.
Yeah, I agree with not banning Heavy. Heavy makes combos good, yeah, but it doesn't make them unbeatable so it's not really causing an issue.
Only if a part causes a combo to become completely unbeatable should it really be considered for a ban.
(Feb. 02, 2016 1:37 AM)ClaraM Wrote: Yeah, I agree with not banning Heavy. Heavy makes combos good, yeah, but it doesn't make them unbeatable so it's not really causing an issue.
Only if a part causes a combo to become completely unbeatable should it really be considered for a ban.
Heavy being in the game lowers the amount of competitively viable Disks in Burst Format since almost every combo uses it. That's the issue. We want the game to be as diverse as possible.
But we do need to actually test the effects of a Heavy-less Burst Format before we make such a decision.
Honestly if there is no Heavy it benefits Attack the most. Defense would be obliterated if it used Spread.
I wanted to keep out of this disscusion until it got resolved but I think it is time to talk about this situation from my stand point.
I will say and I will be truthful, the reason I won Dir En Bey Deux was because of OHD. Yes Odin is OP and I agree with BANNING ODIN but if we ban heavy, it will do a diservice to the BURST format.
I'm going to go back to MFB for a particular reason. In the WBO youtube channel it talks about the 4 particular types: Attack, Defense, Stamina, and last Balance. For each of these, there is a risk of using it. In burst these rules apply. But since Odin is soo versatile, it outweighs the balance and makes it all around good. Though you can beat it, it is very difficult, and only bladers who dedicate their time and practice will do good in doing so. Taking out heavy will not fix things either. Heavy helps all burst beys and taking it out will make things less competitive and just make Defence not even anything.(even though thisformat is crazy lol)
In particular this showed in BEYBLADE SHOGATSU. First of all i mean no disrespect to BLASTERJOKER, because this was me in Deux2.0 but basically BLASTERJOKER SWEEPED everybody with mostly ODIN. He undeniably had the strongest launch out of all of us, since during the matchups, he used OHD vs OHD and beat people with ease. His 1 loss was from me, but the thing is, he didn't use Odin(but i did lol). I wanna say this: BLASTERJOKER hasn't been playing for a while and by finding out that OHD was good, he simply went OHD CRAZY love and did great. I alsowant to point out that I used OHD alot in shogatsu and OHB and it is too versatile as i was able to beat attack types.
This goes to show that people can come in and just go off and sweep to 1st place. I also did this in Deux2.0 and used Odin for a fair amount of my matches and won like this so I am also a OHD spammer and I have a decent launch to outspin people who also use OHD.
So to end my long rant and I apologize, heavy getting banned would be a mistake and a total loss to burst. Though i'm all in favour of banning Odin. It gives people with no skill like myself to win easily, but disadvatages kids or other people to have fun and enjoy this. All in all, #banodin. I want people to kno i mean no disrespect to anybody i mentioned as im just pointing out things ive seen throughout my burst encounters
I will say and I will be truthful, the reason I won Dir En Bey Deux was because of OHD. Yes Odin is OP and I agree with BANNING ODIN but if we ban heavy, it will do a diservice to the BURST format.
I'm going to go back to MFB for a particular reason. In the WBO youtube channel it talks about the 4 particular types: Attack, Defense, Stamina, and last Balance. For each of these, there is a risk of using it. In burst these rules apply. But since Odin is soo versatile, it outweighs the balance and makes it all around good. Though you can beat it, it is very difficult, and only bladers who dedicate their time and practice will do good in doing so. Taking out heavy will not fix things either. Heavy helps all burst beys and taking it out will make things less competitive and just make Defence not even anything.(even though thisformat is crazy lol)
In particular this showed in BEYBLADE SHOGATSU. First of all i mean no disrespect to BLASTERJOKER, because this was me in Deux2.0 but basically BLASTERJOKER SWEEPED everybody with mostly ODIN. He undeniably had the strongest launch out of all of us, since during the matchups, he used OHD vs OHD and beat people with ease. His 1 loss was from me, but the thing is, he didn't use Odin(but i did lol). I wanna say this: BLASTERJOKER hasn't been playing for a while and by finding out that OHD was good, he simply went OHD CRAZY love and did great. I alsowant to point out that I used OHD alot in shogatsu and OHB and it is too versatile as i was able to beat attack types.
This goes to show that people can come in and just go off and sweep to 1st place. I also did this in Deux2.0 and used Odin for a fair amount of my matches and won like this so I am also a OHD spammer and I have a decent launch to outspin people who also use OHD.
So to end my long rant and I apologize, heavy getting banned would be a mistake and a total loss to burst. Though i'm all in favour of banning Odin. It gives people with no skill like myself to win easily, but disadvatages kids or other people to have fun and enjoy this. All in all, #banodin. I want people to kno i mean no disrespect to anybody i mentioned as im just pointing out things ive seen throughout my burst encounters
![[Image: wherebeybladehappens.png]](https://s17.postimg.io/fdk5zdb3z/wherebeybladehappens.png)