World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. World Beyblade Organization Discuss worldbeyblade.org

Ban Hasbro Bearing?

Jan. 03, 2019  4:16 AM
 
(Jan. 03, 2019  4:13 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote: 1. UTC but mine is a good mold 
2. 0 against L spin Spryzen

Do you have an original to compare it against?

You wrote 10-0, though. Or did you mean to write 5-0?
Jan. 03, 2019  4:18 AM
 
(Jan. 03, 2019  4:16 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Jan. 03, 2019  4:13 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote: 1. UTC but mine is a good mold 
2. 0 against L spin Spryzen

Do you have an original to compare it against?

You wrote 10-0, though. Or did you mean to write 5-0?

1.No
2.i meant to put 10-0 for 5 burst
Jan. 03, 2019  7:21 AM
 
I guess you make a good case, but tell me: do you at least plan to unban Spryzen requiem and maybe maximus Garuda. Giving us G3 would help hasbro players deal with left spin beys now that Br is out of the picture, and giving us SrS3 would give hasbro players a more solid, heavy and useful bey, and one that's not OP because of Br. As scary as it would be to play hasbro without any really safe Br combos, at least Spryzen requiem and Garuda would give hasbro players a better chance to play in the meta. Without Br, SrS3 is not that OP and G3 isnt that good anymore either. I think many hasbro players would accept losing Br if it meant both a more balanced meta and The unbanning of G3 and SrS3.
(Jan. 03, 2019  4:18 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote:
(Jan. 03, 2019  4:16 AM)Kei Wrote: Do you have an original to compare it against?

You wrote 10-0, though. Or did you mean to write 5-0?

1.No
2.i meant to put 10-0 for 5 burst

If you got 5 bursts then its not as good as the original, the original doesn't burst very often.
Jan. 03, 2019  8:16 AM
 
As much as I hate to sound antagonistic about this, the argument that banning Hasbro Bearing makes it near impossible for Hasbro-only players to compete in a TT meta is beside the point, and continuing to make the debate about that really only hurts the chance of keeping the part legal tbh.

The point that needs to be made, imo, is that despite being "objectively broken" in a Hasbro-only context, the equally objective fact that Hasbro Bearing can only be used with Hasbro Layers is what keeps it in check enough that it isn't overpowered in the current TT meta. Sure, things like Balkesh, G3, SrS3  (and also Caynox C3/N3 I think?) are near unburstable on Bearing, and it also has (arguably) the best LAD in the game, but the weight of the Layers it can accommodate means that it really can't compete in same spin Stamina matches and makes it much more susceptible to KO than the heavier Cho Z Layers that the TT Bearing/Xt+ has access to.

Dead Hades 8'Dagger Xtreme' vs Balkesh B3 0Wall Bearing
dH.8'D.X': 12 wins (11 KO, 1 OS)
B3.0W.Br: 8 wins (all OS)
B3.0W.Br win rate: 40%

Bloody Longinus Ωuter Xtreme' vs Balkesh B3 0Wall Bearing
bL.Ω.X': 9 wins (7 KO, 2 OS)
B3.0W.Br: 11 wins (all OS)
1 tie redone
B3.0W.Br win rate: 55%
bL miraculously bursted B3 in one of the battles from a random critical hit, but since it didn't lose like any slope in the other 19 battles I just decided to discard that round.

Not sure where the idea of B3 Bearing being difficult to KO came from... it was getting pretty ragdolled in most of these tests and even suffered a few late-game KOs (it scored less than 50% against opposite spin attack, ouch). If my bL also didn't feel so darn weird to Sliding Shoot - it like, gets stuck on the launcher a little or has a delayed release or something, but I feel like I can never aim it at the correct angle or my launch is underpowered - it might have gotten a higher win rate.

I tested B3.0W.Br against aH.7C.Xt+ (Stamina Mode) and after like 15 rounds I had only 1 definite victory for aH... Wall is definitely better than Lift in this matchup but I still can't say for sure whether Bearing or Xtend+ is better in opposite spin. Tried it against aH.7L.Br also and got 6 or 7 consecutive ties before deciding to give up on testing the matchup. Either way, I'd say that those statistics of test results with so few rounds and no ties redone are a bit misleading - I could just as easily say that aH had a 100% win rate against B3 and it technically wouldn't be incorrect. Tongue_out

TL;DR, leaving Hasbro Bearing in the game (and unbanning SrS3/G3) doesn't really change the current state of "pick the wrong driver matchup/spin direction & u lose" meta, and if anything, it adds a few viable sidegrades to aH/hS that sacrifice some same spin Stamina and KO Defense for Burst Defense. Of course, if things like Salamander S4/Hercules H4 end up being comparable to Hell Salamander and Archer Hercules in terms of weight/Stamina, or if Hasbro decides to make Turbo "Legends" with actual metal (which may happen according to zankye apparently?) then I'd be totally down to ban Hasbro Br, but as it stands now I don't think it's a problem.
Jan. 03, 2019  6:10 PM
 
(Jan. 03, 2019  8:16 AM)Wombat Wrote: As much as I hate to sound antagonistic about this, the argument that banning Hasbro Bearing makes it near impossible for Hasbro-only players to compete in a TT meta is beside the point, and continuing to make the debate about that really only hurts the chance of keeping the part legal tbh.

The point that needs to be made, imo, is that despite being "objectively broken" in a Hasbro-only context, the equally objective fact that Hasbro Bearing can only be used with Hasbro Layers is what keeps it in check enough that it isn't overpowered in the current TT meta. Sure, things like Balkesh, G3, SrS3  (and also Caynox C3/N3 I think?) are near unburstable on Bearing, and it also has (arguably) the best LAD in the game, but the weight of the Layers it can accommodate means that it really can't compete in same spin Stamina matches and makes it much more susceptible to KO than the heavier Cho Z Layers that the TT Bearing/Xt+ has access to.

Dead Hades 8'Dagger Xtreme' vs Balkesh B3 0Wall Bearing
dH.8'D.X': 12 wins (11 KO, 1 OS)
B3.0W.Br: 8 wins (all OS)
B3.0W.Br win rate: 40%

Bloody Longinus Ωuter Xtreme' vs Balkesh B3 0Wall Bearing
bL.Ω.X': 9 wins (7 KO, 2 OS)
B3.0W.Br: 11 wins (all OS)
1 tie redone
B3.0W.Br win rate: 55%
bL miraculously bursted B3 in one of the battles from a random critical hit, but since it didn't lose like any slope in the other 19 battles I just decided to discard that round.

Not sure where the idea of B3 Bearing being difficult to KO came from... it was getting pretty ragdolled in most of these tests and even suffered a few late-game KOs (it scored less than 50% against opposite spin attack, ouch). If my bL also didn't feel so darn weird to Sliding Shoot - it like, gets stuck on the launcher a little or has a delayed release or something, but I feel like I can never aim it at the correct angle or my launch is underpowered - it might have gotten a higher win rate.

I tested B3.0W.Br against aH.7C.Xt+ (Stamina Mode) and after like 15 rounds I had only 1 definite victory for aH... Wall is definitely better than Lift in this matchup but I still can't say for sure whether Bearing or Xtend+ is better in opposite spin. Tried it against aH.7L.Br also and got 6 or 7 consecutive ties before deciding to give up on testing the matchup. Either way, I'd say that those statistics of test results with so few rounds and no ties redone are a bit misleading - I could just as easily say that aH had a 100% win rate against B3 and it technically wouldn't be incorrect.  :P

TL;DR, leaving Hasbro Bearing in the game (and unbanning SrS3/G3) doesn't really change the current state of "pick the wrong driver matchup/spin direction & u lose" meta, and if anything, it adds a few viable sidegrades to aH/hS that sacrifice some same spin Stamina and KO Defense for Burst Defense. Of course, if things like Salamander S4/Hercules H4 end up being comparable to Hell Salamander and Archer Hercules in terms of weight/Stamina, or if Hasbro decides to make Turbo "Legends" with actual metal (which may happen according to zankye apparently?) then I'd be totally down to ban Hasbro Br, but as it stands now I don't think it's a problem.

Yeah, that makes more sense than hasbro players saying they can't win without Br. I'm personally at fault but your right and I may have overreacted. Sure, it may be harder to win opposite spin and stamina, but the rest of hasbro meta should be fine. Thanks to some new parts, I can now beat things like aH/hS Xt+ and can even will with attack more often. But yeah, the fact that hasbro Br can't be used with TT layers and that hasbro layers are light should justify it not getting banned. Also, they really should unban SrS3 and G3. Also, N3 and dC3 arent that hard to burst on Br, besides things like K4 and G3 (and G3 gets rekt on Br anyways) there arent many good right spin beys that are unburstable on Br.
Jan. 04, 2019  3:32 AM
 
Grin Yeah, I still say banning parts to subjectively change the meta is exactly that, just subjectively changing the meta to "make it more fair, even, variable, etc. etc.  Call the parts "op", broken or whatever.  I don't think the part is "broken", especially if all of the same part functions the same.  Now if some Hasbro Br were "unburstable" and some were not, then maybe you could say the part is "broken".  I still say if the part is out then you should be able to use it, if it dominates it dominates.  What you should do is unban everything that is currently banned, have 3-6 months of tournaments and see if these banned parts really change the meta. Grin
Jan. 04, 2019  3:50 AM
 
I just checked the winning combos thread on the latest page and Hasbro Bearing was only used 5 times on the whole page
Jan. 04, 2019  5:04 AM
 
(Jan. 04, 2019  3:50 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote: I just checked the winning combos thread on the latest page and Hasbro Bearing was only used 5 times on the whole page
TT stuff outclasses most Hasbro Br combos anyway, besides Hasbro Br is basically Br' so why in the world do we still have it unbanned?
Jan. 04, 2019  9:24 PM
 
@[Kei] Maybe we should take a vote?
Jan. 04, 2019  9:34 PM
 
(Jan. 04, 2019  5:04 AM)Infinite.Zero Wrote:
(Jan. 04, 2019  3:50 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote: I just checked the winning combos thread on the latest page and Hasbro Bearing was only used 5 times on the whole page
TT stuff outclasses most Hasbro Br combos anyway, besides Hasbro Br is basically Br' so why in the world do we still have it unbanned?

Do you think it should or not? You said TT beys outclass it and then you said it was better
Jan. 04, 2019  10:42 PM
 
(Jan. 04, 2019  9:34 PM)Dt20000 Wrote:
(Jan. 04, 2019  5:04 AM)Infinite.Zero Wrote: TT stuff outclasses most Hasbro Br combos anyway, besides Hasbro Br is basically Br' so why in the world do we still have it unbanned?

Do you think it should or not? You said TT beys outclass it and then you said it was better
You see thats the part were some people want it banned when others dont. From my point of view, banning wont help unless its the limited format were talking about. I would personally ban it on all the best hasbro layer that dont burst with it like SrS3, B3, G3...
(Jan. 04, 2019  9:24 PM)CheetoBlader Wrote: @[Kei] Maybe we should take a vote?
Most likely not a public one. I pretty sure the committee wont do that.


Sry 4 2x post.
Jan. 04, 2019  11:15 PM
 
We don't do public votes for obvious reasons, but we do take community opinions on the topic very seriously while making the decision within the Organized Play Contributor team.
Jan. 05, 2019  4:55 PM
 
Imo, bearing doesn't dominate same spin matches. Stationary attack can easily hit the bearing combo hard enough to outspin it.
Jan. 07, 2019  8:47 AM
 
Test Conditions
- B3 always launched first
- BeyLauncher LR + Launcher Grip for X' Attack types unless otherwise noted, BeyLauncher L for B3 and bL.10G.W
- Medium strength launch for Balkesh B3 against X' combos. Hard launch vs bL.10G.W

Test Results
Dead Hades 8 Dash Dagger Xtreme Dash vs. Balkesh B3 0 Wall Bearing
dH.8’D.X': 7 Wins (7 KO)
B3.0W.Br: 8 Wins (3 KO, 5 OS)
B3 Win Percentage: 53%

I was impressed by Dead Hades a lot in this set. Most of dH's KOs came later on when I realized how to launch it properly, so I'm confident I could bump B3's win percentage down to at least 40% if I did it again. This was in stark contrast to my experience with other right-spin Attackers against it thus far (超V, wV, cR), not to mention the difficulty I've had using left-spin Attackers against it (nL, bL, gF). For example:

Cho-Z Valkyrie 7 αngle Xtreme Dash vs. Balkesh B3 0 Wall Bearing
ChoV.7a.X': 1 Win (1 KO)
B3.0W.Br: 6 Wins (6 OS)
B3 Win Percentage: 86%

Bloody Longinus Ωuter Xtreme Dash vs. Balkesh B3 0 Wall Bearing
bL.Outer.X': 3 Wins (2 OS, 1 KO)
B3.0W.Br: 7 Wins (7 OS)
B3 Win Percentage: 70%

Same result as my previous bL X' set that I posted before. Although this time it was 2 OS and 1 KO instead of 3 KO and I was using Ωuter instead of 5 Reach to be consistent with Wombat's tests.

I did a shorter set before this with a Launcher Grip + BeyLauncher LR for bL and got two KOs early on, but then there was many consecutive wins for B3 so I decided to try just the BeyLauncher L for bL in this set. It didn't make much of a difference in the end. I didn't test it today, but I still felt nL stood a better chance against it (though it was still 50/50 as the tests in my earlier post suggest).

Bloody Longinus 10 Glaive Weight vs. Balkesh B3 0 Wall Bearing
bL.10G.W: 0 Wins
B3.0W.Br: 5 Wins (5 OS)
B3 Win Percentage: 100%

Key Takeaways
  • Based on my experience, Dead Hades is the only truly effective Attack type against Balkesh B3 0 Wall Bearing. Other right-spin Attackers like 超V and wV in particular can't seem to put a dent in it.
  • bL has been pretty inconsistent for me against B3.0W.Br. nL was more successful in my other set from before, but even that produced a 50/50 result in what should probably be more like a 75/25 result in favour of the Attack type when we're talking about same spin Attack vs same spin Bearing.
  • Stationary Attack seems particularly ineffective to me against B3.0W.Br. Wombat had success in the test results posted in the OP, but that was against Spryzen Requiem using Star. B3 using Wall had no real problem OSing and resisting bursting against bL in my short set.

(Jan. 03, 2019  8:16 AM)Wombat Wrote: As much as I hate to sound antagonistic about this, the argument that banning Hasbro Bearing makes it near impossible for Hasbro-only players to compete in a TT meta is beside the point, and continuing to make the debate about that really only hurts the chance of keeping the part legal tbh.

Thank you lol.

(Jan. 03, 2019  8:16 AM)Wombat Wrote: The point that needs to be made, imo, is that despite being "objectively broken" in a Hasbro-only context, the equally objective fact that Hasbro Bearing can only be used with Hasbro Layers is what keeps it in check enough that it isn't overpowered in the current TT meta. Sure, things like Balkesh, G3, SrS3  (and also Caynox C3/N3 I think?) are near unburstable on Bearing, and it also has (arguably) the best LAD in the game, but the weight of the Layers it can accommodate means that it really can't compete in same spin Stamina matches and makes it much more susceptible to KO than the heavier Cho Z Layers that the TT Bearing/Xt+ has access to.

Yeah, the fact that it can only be used with Hasbro Layers is the strongest argument for not banning it. Not being able to compete in same spin stamina matches is a big weakness, but nevertheless besides the fact that dH seems to be the only effective Attack type against it (in my experience), my worry is primarily centered on the power it holds during the first stage.

We all know that Attack types–in particular the type needed to overcome B3.0W.Br–are scarce during the first stage of events. What this means is that a player:

1. Can safely use this combo to reliably OS basically anything in right-spin not on Br with essentially no fear of being KOed or Bursted because of its low recoil design and material, strong slope, and strong spring in Br. If they come up against a right-spin Br combination, they still have a chance to win as it has been proven that the lower weight of the Layer doesn't hinder its spin stealing capability.

2. If they do come up against an left-spin Attack type user–the user that should have the best chance of bursting a left-spin Bearing-based opponent–they also essentially have no fear of being bursted and losing two points. This makes the match-up quite difficult for the Attack type user to win because KOs are not worth two points in the first stage.

The combination of being able to stand up to basically any right-spin combo in the game as well as having effectively zero chance of bursting against anything–even combos that TT Bearing combos would burst against–makes Hasbro Bearing particularly devastating in the first stage, stifling players ability to even really consider using Attack.

(Jan. 04, 2019  3:32 AM)mleunc Wrote: Grin Yeah, I still say banning parts to subjectively change the meta is exactly that, just subjectively changing the meta to "make it more fair, even, variable, etc. etc.  Call the parts "op", broken or whatever.  I don't think the part is "broken", especially if all of the same part functions the same.  Now if some Hasbro Br were "unburstable" and some were not, then maybe you could say the part is "broken".  I still say if the part is out then you should be able to use it, if it dominates it dominates.

It's easy to say "if it's out then you should be able to use it"–and that is certainly the ideal situation–but it's also important for us to consider the actual balance of the game based on the rules we use. TAKARA-TOMY and Hasbro don't always make the best decisions (or make them for the right reasons), and this is something which is obvious to players who compete in our tournaments. People wouldn't complain if there was no issues and everything was balanced and fair as it should be. Of course, there is some degree of subjectivity involved because there are many variables when it comes to Beyblade.

However, there's certain aspects fundamental to how Beyblade should work on a competitive level, and when they get out of balance is when you start to hear people complaining about X or Y. There will always be variance in experience, but over time it becomes clear when something in particular seems problematic. I don't think it's wrong to think critically about these things because the rules of our events are literally what ultimately determine how much fun the game is to play.

(Jan. 04, 2019  3:50 AM)CheetoBlader Wrote: I just checked the winning combos thread on the latest page and Hasbro Bearing was only used 5 times on the whole page

The amount of usage of a particular part doesn't necessarily play a factor when deciding whether it should be banned or not. The context is different in each situation, so the merits of each situation should be evaluated individually.

(Jan. 05, 2019  4:55 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote: Imo, bearing doesn't dominate same spin matches. Stationary attack can easily hit the bearing combo hard enough to outspin it.

My quick tests of bL.10G.W vs. B3.0W.Br above seem to suggest otherwise.
Jan. 09, 2019  7:38 AM
 
If tournament results and domination have very little to do with banning a part, why hasn't the Br ban been considered before? Its been 6+ months since the part was released. Honestly, I'm just wondering because I either thought is was going to get a considered ban really early, or never.
Jan. 09, 2019  8:29 AM
 
(Jan. 09, 2019  7:38 AM)bladekid Wrote: If tournament results and domination have very little to do with banning a part, why hasn't the Br ban been considered before? Its been 6+ months since the part was released. Honestly, I'm just wondering because I either thought is was going to get a considered ban really early, or never.

Tournament results don't necessarily have "very little" to do with banning a part. They certainly are considered and do carry some value, but as I said: "The context is different in each situation, so the merits of each situation should be evaluated individually".

To answer your question: we're all volunteers and sometimes things are missed. Besides, Attack was not in a particularly healthy position before the release of Xtreme Dash. So now that it is, something like Hasbro Bearing stonewalling some Attack types that would otherwise deal with TT Bearing handily stands out. Bearing was also difficult to find in many regions, and the number of Hasbro players who do have it and are competitive seems to have been low relatively speaking. So, a lot of reasons it didn't really come up until now haha.
Jan. 10, 2019  12:47 AM
 
(Jan. 09, 2019  8:29 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Jan. 09, 2019  7:38 AM)bladekid Wrote: If tournament results and domination have very little to do with banning a part, why hasn't the Br ban been  considered before? Its been 6+ months since the part was released. Honestly, I'm just wondering because I either thought is was going to get a considered ban really early, or never.

Tournament results don't necessarily have "very little" to do with banning a part. They certainly are considered and do carry some value, but as I said: "The context is different in each situation, so the merits of each situation should be evaluated individually".

To answer your question: we're all volunteers and sometimes things are missed. Besides, Attack was not in a particularly healthy position before the release of Xtreme Dash. So now that it is, something like Hasbro Bearing stonewalling some Attack types that would otherwise deal with TT Bearing handily stands out. Bearing was also difficult to find in many regions, and the number of Hasbro players who do have it and are competitive seems to have been low relatively speaking. So, a lot of reasons it didn't really come up until now haha.
 Ah, I see. Thanks
Jan. 10, 2019  1:30 AM
 
do not ban because bearing it has weak burst resistance
Jan. 10, 2019  1:56 AM
 
(Jan. 10, 2019  1:30 AM)Foxblade Wrote: do not ban because bearing it has weak burst resistance

We are talking about Hasbro Bearing
Jan. 11, 2019  5:08 AM
 
if you ban hasbro bearing id say the TT bearing should be banned, with TT having much heavier layers that don't burst much and with things like burst stoppers it would make it unfair to say that hasbros should be banned for having too much burst resistance and not TT's. Not to mention hasbro only players will be put at a huge disadvantage at tournaments without bearing they cant beat Xt+ or Br in opposite spin battles! id suggest if you are going to ban hasbro bearing you should ban the TT version of bearing and unban G3 and Sr3 if not it would make no sense to ban the hasbro bearing
Jan. 11, 2019  6:26 AM
 
I see a lot of talk of "banning Hasbro Bearing makes it near impossible for Hasbro-only players to compete in a TT meta" but let's be real here: Hasbro beys have almost never been competitive with TT beys. If they ever have, it's because Hasbro screwed up a part design and made it unburstable or overpowered or something similar.

I hate to say it, but BeyBlade and WBO tournaments in general have kind of always been Pay-to-win. Or, at least they are now. Many people are unable or unwilling to spend the money required to get the really good TT beys (customize sets are a great example of this).

I'll abide by whatever decisions WBO makes for banning parts, and I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other. As the testing proved, some Hasbro parts are just severely broken in such a way that not even TT's latest unstoppable absurdities can handle them. Ban my B3 10Cr Br all you want (I admit, the 10 is TT), I'm sure even with a solid Hasbro setup (and I do finally have a solid Hasbro setup with many decent beys and tips, at last) I'm just going to get smashed by whatever new TT chicanery is released. They're just generally objectively better by design. I'm sort of stoic about it now. And the only reason I got a few TT beys was because I got hooked on the idea of littering in the middle of a match (rP). I still want to go to tournaments, even if all my best parts get banned. They're fun.

Honestly, you might want to consider making all tournaments either TT specific or Hasbro specific.
Jan. 11, 2019  3:53 PM
 
Ok, so you say that the weight of the layers don't hinder the opposite spin performance. This is something a TT only player may not notice but hasbro beys are at a disadvantage in opposite spin because of their lack of weight and Br misleads a lot of people, let me explain: yes, hasbro beys on Br can compete in opposite spin but the main reason is the center of gravity. The light layers, while not keeping as much momentum, can win on Br because the light layers with the heavy disks make the center of gravity lower, negating the problem of the lighter layers. On the other hand, you have things like Ds, At, and Xt-S that don't use the center of gravity advantage, and they aren't very good against TT because of it. I can beat F3 on Ds with J3 on Gr, but I can't even come close to beating Hs At, where as hS Br can lose to a good hasbro layer on Br. The argument I'm making is that its not much about how burst resistant hasbro Br is that makes it good, its mostly the fact it has good LAD. If you want to make the argument that it makes attack harder to use in the first stage, so does aH and hS. In a vacuum, yes, you can beat both hS and aH with attack, but when it comes to the first stage, its all about predictions. If I go with dH or wV on X' because I think my opponent is going with aH on Xt+ and they go with hS on At, would you say that it's unsafe to use attack in the first stage and that hS is unfair? Just like how a hS could have lost if I read my opponent better, B3 can be beaten easily as well. If I knew my opponet was using Br on Br, I could easily beat it with most good hasbro and TT left spin stamina layers. The fact that hS At is as popular of a combo as it is, using something like Br Br is just a bad idea, and if I put Br on something right spin be beat a left spin hS combo, congratulations, I just played beyblade correctly! Beyblade, as a game, is all about prediction when it comes down to it. If I think my opponent is using B3 Br, I would use F3 At, if the used aH Xt+instead and I lose, then that's my fault for not reading my opponent well enough. In the end Br is more of a vital part because it provides LAD, not burst resistance. If I want burst resistance and defence, I'll just go with unite, which actually has the best burst resistance for hasbro.
Jan. 11, 2019  10:41 PM
 
(Jan. 11, 2019  3:53 PM)bladekid Wrote: If you want to make the argument that it makes attack harder to use in the first stage, so does aH and hS.

aH and hS cannot be used on a Bearing which makes them virtually impossible to burst. B3 can. You can't really compare them.

(Jan. 11, 2019  3:53 PM)bladekid Wrote: In a vacuum, yes, you can beat both hS and aH with attack, but when it comes to the first stage, its all about predictions. If I go with dH or wV on X' because I think my opponent is going with aH on Xt+ and they go with hS on At, would you say that it's unsafe to use attack in the first stage and that hS is unfair?

I wouldn't say hS is unfair. You can't put it on a Driver with the best LAD in the game (Bearing) and also have basically a guarantee that you won't burst (and therefore have no chance of losing two points for a Burst Finish in the first stage) because the TT Bearing has a weak spring.

That means you're forced to use other Drivers with stronger springs (and less LAD) if you don't want that same vulnerability to attack. It's fair in that sense. You can't have the best both worlds (burst resistance and LAD).

And this is besides the point, but hS can be defeated with right-spin Attack (although, not as reliably as left-spin can).


(Jan. 11, 2019  3:53 PM)bladekid Wrote: Just like how a hS could have lost if I read my opponent better, B3 can be beaten easily as well. If I knew my opponet was using Br on Br, I could easily beat it with most good hasbro and TT left spin stamina layers. The fact that hS At is as popular of a combo as it is, using something like Br Br is just a bad idea, and if I put Br on something right spin be beat a left spin hS combo, congratulations, I just played beyblade correctly! Beyblade, as a game, is all about prediction when it comes down to it. If I think my opponent is using B3 Br, I would use F3 At, if the used aH Xt+instead and I lose, then that's my fault for not reading my opponent well enough.

You're right. However, the issue isn't that it can't be beaten–it can as you've illustrated–but that it is too safe particularly for the first stage. Yes, you'll lose to left-spin TT stamina types. But you'll probably win against almost anything else.

There is no combo in the TAKARA-TOMY metagame that will simultaneously grant you burst immunity and the best LAD in the game. It doesn't exist because it would be broken.

The killer for me really is the burst resistance. Being able to use Bearing in the first stage and not having to worry about losing two points is a big deal.

There's factors that make the Hasbro version of this less powerful than if TT Bearing was as strong as Hasbro Bearing, but nevertheless, having such a combination of burst resistance and LAD for the first stage is overpowered in my opinion.
Jan. 12, 2019  5:23 AM
 
So? Who cares if you can't get a 2 point win against it? If you have something that can reliably beat it stamina wise, then it won't matter in the long run. Keep in mind that hS, which is a very popular beyblade in the first stage, can reliably beat B3 on pretty much any combo thats meta besides hold and maybe destroy. Also, if you want a TT bey that has both amazing LAD and burst resistance, look no further than ChoZ Spriggan.10W.Br. from what I've heard, the burst stoppers and good teeth really help its burst resistance, negating the weak spring in Br, couple that with the heavy weight of the layer that helps both burst a KO resistance and thats sounds pretty OP to me. Even if it can still sometimes burst, Xt+ could make it not burst. Also, if you want hasbro combos that beat B3 Br, its harder to win with F3 At than I thought, but B3 on At can beat it easier and the banned layer, SrS3 on At can beat it pretty consistantly. Also, since it has a good and widely used consistent counter, don't you think constantly spamming B3 Br would get predictable? If I see somebody just spamming a combo, I would try to counter that combo if I face them and I would assume any good blader would do the same.
Jan. 12, 2019  5:50 AM
 
(Jan. 12, 2019  5:23 AM)bladekid Wrote: So? Who cares if you can't get a 2 point win against it?

It's not just the fact that you can't get a two point win against it; there's many combos that are difficult to do that against (although maybe not as nearly impossible as B3 Br). The issue is that B3 Br has that trait while also possessing the best LAD in the game. Thus, making it inherently too safe.

Now I feel like we're going in circles haha. I've been saying this a lot; it's just a matter of whether people feel that such a combination should exist or not. So hopefully we can make a decision soon within the team. Seems like we've exhausted all angles from both sides in this thread.

(Jan. 12, 2019  5:23 AM)bladekid Wrote: Also, if you want a TT bey that has both amazing LAD and burst resistance, look no further than ChoZ Spriggan.10W.Br. from what I've heard, the burst stoppers and good teeth really help its burst resistance, negating the weak spring in Br, couple that with the heavy weight of the layer that helps both burst a KO resistance and thats sounds pretty OP to me.

Certainly does sound OP. But regrettably, in reality 超S on Br is quite bad against many attack types; a lot more noticeably so than B3 on Br. It also doesn't have better same spin (or opposite spin generally speaking) stamina than aH or hS. I would like to test it some more, but initial testing of that combo presented me with no concern at all.

(Jan. 12, 2019  5:23 AM)bladekid Wrote: Also, since it has a good and widely used consistent counter, don't you think constantly spamming B3 Br would get predictable? If I see somebody just spamming a combo, I would try to counter that combo if I face them and I would assume any good blader would do the same.

Of course. But we're talking about the game on a more general and fundamental level. Of course any great combo can be countered by specific things and good players will take advantage of such combos. Unfortunately, the existence of a counter doesn't mean that X part or combo isn't overpowered.
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