World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.

(Feb. 07, 2015  2:45 PM)Honey Wrote: [ -> ]

Wombat Wrote:I just know it was tough to get the launch down, I almost lost to Grand Ketos E230RS with it just because I self KOd twice. I bet Honey's got a good idea of how strong and what angle to launch it because it's so similar to Bahamdia Dragooon BD145GF, so maybe he could do tests?

Just to confirm before anything else, self KO'd, as in it leaving the stadium without any contact, not because of recoil? I honestly doubt that's the case, but it'd be pretty odd if so.

It was more than a year ago so I don't remember the exact details of the match (other than my opponent, the combos and the final score), but it was probably without any contact seeing as I had trouble controlling GF. I remember not wanting to use the combo afterward throughout the rest of the tournament because I wasn't confident I could stay in the stadium.

Also, thanks for the tests, although the combo didn't do as well as I thought it would. The original thread for it made it seem better that it actually is, I guess. BD145GF is still good though.

LW105 Solves the Spin-Equalizing problems that BD145 suffers from (admittedly while giving up some smash and defense)

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(Feb. 03, 2015  9:50 PM)Honey Wrote: [ -> ]

TheBlackDragon Wrote:Come on guys! You're killing me here, haha. Let's get this thing rolling!

I'd say the list is definitely fine. In terms defense, like I mentioned in the Defense Reformation thread, I like the list an most of your changes TBD, especially RF-based defense being up there once again; like those things are good, they seem to do the job pretty successfully. Not too sure if anyone had any tournament experience with them, though.

TheBlackDragon Wrote:It's possible; I wouldn't be opposed to it (although I'd have to do some more testing myself before giving any sort of opinion). They seem successful enough in tournaments and formal testing.

In terms of them being successful in tournaments, them doing well against stamina is what should matter most, in my opinion, seeing as they're supposed to be spin equalizers, after all.

By the way, @[Time], you were saying Sniper was in love with either Genbull Dragoon LW105GF or Dragoon BD145GF. Has he had any tournament success with it; what was he successful against using either one?

TheBlackDragon Wrote:EDIT: Oh wait, didn't Meow! do some testing with Dragooon D125GF sometime in the past? Like back in 2013?

http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Finding-...pid1238204

Here's a link to a list I made with all the testings with Dragoon GF testings, there are a couple of Dragoon D125GF ones in there. Meow made some video with it, too.

Sniper and I actually had a battle between LW105 and BD145 with him winning with 3 KO to my 2 OS. I can't say I remember specifics, only him beating a bunch of stuff with it.

Problem with mid/low height Dragooon GF customs is that, at least for me, they die hard against HTSC/HTDC. The friction between GF and the stadium floor is too great for them to spin-equalize effectively against an opponent who's Wheel is far removed from theirs.

From my testing, Dragooon D125GF can't even take out Duo SR200TB.

From my testing, D125 was always too high, which is a large part of the reason I based my combo around LW105 which if I'm remembering right usually does a pretty good job of taking out almost any htsc that stays in the middle and doesn't wobble around in circles at the end. The only thing I've seen really give it trouble is E230. It just really doesn't like the grinding.

TheBlackDragon Wrote:From my testing, Dragooon D125GF can't even take out Duo SR200TB.

That's rather weird, seeing as Dragooon-based setups with a decent amount of stamina - or in this case, a relatively good amount of stall, can generally take out Duo HTSC. Was it possible that not much contact at the end of the matches you tested was made. That may be the case, but TB would probably get off-balanced easily, so I don't really know.

@[TheBlackDragon] and @[Time], have you guys considered CH120? Synchrome Dragooon ___ GF is basically the modern Meteo L-Drago II ___ XF; they both follow the same concept, and the latter often utilizes CH120.

If 120-height's too short to deal with an opponent, you could always switch 145-height mode and go for destabilizing blows.

Isn't CH120 too light to make the custom controllable? If you are going to use that, then you should use an MF-H right?

(Feb. 11, 2015  10:20 PM)Ocean Wrote: [ -> ]Isn't CH120 too light to make the custom controllable? If you are going to use that, then you should use an MF-H right?

Where did you hear that from?

Not trying to be sarcastic here- I know CH120 used to be commonly used for Attack, from what I remember.

(Feb. 11, 2015  10:20 PM)Ocean Wrote: [ -> ]Isn't CH120 too light to make the custom controllable? If you are going to use that, then you should use an MF-H right?

I guess you could add a MSF, but you'd just be sacrificing crucial late game Stamina in a Left-Spin Stamina-Attack type for a minor increase in mass. Plus, the point of using CH120 isn't for its weight, but its height(s). I've never heard of anybody using low Tracks to make their combos heavier, lol.

(Feb. 11, 2015  10:38 PM)Aɴɢʀʏ Fᴀᴄᴇ Wrote: [ -> ]

(Feb. 11, 2015  10:20 PM)Ocean Wrote: [ -> ]Isn't CH120 too light to make the custom controllable? If you are going to use that, then you should use an MF-H right?

I guess you could add a MSF, but you'd just be sacrificing crucial late game Stamina in a Left-Spin Stamina-Attack type for a minor increase in mass. Plus, the point of using CH120 isn't for its weight, but its height(s). I've never heard of anybody using low Tracks to make their combos heavier, lol.

lol, would MSF-L work?

I found a decent combo that I stumbled upon when making my username. It may not seem like much, but in my hands, it is very powerful.

Hades/Hell Lynx BD145DS ES/EDS/S/MS/SD/D/WD

(Apr. 17, 2015  8:53 PM)Hades Lynx Wrote: [ -> ]I found a decent combo that I stumbled upon when making my username. It may not seem like much, but in my hands, it is very powerful.

Hades/Hell Lynx BD145DS ES/EDS/S/MS/SD/D/WD

Unfortunately Hell and BD145 are banned in the Limited format. It used to be OK upon release though.

TheBlackDragon in the Advanced Forum Wrote:Anyone for the update above?

It's been almost 6 months now; I say we go for it.

The list you made back in December is definitely good. I think we should definitely still consider things like Dragooon BD145GF—which I personally does pretty well against pretty much all areas put aside mixed results against Duo and it not being so great against BD145RDF variant—and for that matter Dragooon LW105GF. Not to mention Dragooon LTSC, too, like I think those should definitely be on the list.

@[TheBlackDragon]

(May. 29, 2015  11:29 PM)Mitsu Wrote: [ -> ]

TheBlackDragon in the Advanced Forum Wrote:Anyone for the update above?

It's been almost 6 months now; I say we go for it.

The list you made back in December is definitely good. I think we should definitely still consider things like Dragooon BD145GF—which I personally does pretty well against pretty much all areas put aside mixed results against Duo and it not being so great against BD145RDF variant—and for that matter Dragooon LW105GF. Not to mention Dragooon LTSC, too, like I think those should definitely be on the list.

@[TheBlackDragon]

I mean, since MFB is finished, the Standard (and Zero-G) CC list should be relatively stable. I don't really think anything new has been discovered since the last update in December, nor will anything new be discovered (unless someone pulls another Wolborg 4 and finds something no one's thought of), so at this point it's all really a matter of who is better at arguing about what is "top tier".

I'll be honest here, I never got the heck of using GF (I wanted to try using Meteo CH120GF in Limited but couldn't get the launch down. It's the same problem I had with MF during AN this year, I either launched it too hard and self-KOed or didn't launch hard enough to OS. I still think it should be on the list though, it's just one of those combos that you have to know how to use to win with.

I would still like to see (MSF-L/H) Revizer/Killerken/Zirago Dragooon B:D on the list. It is definitely as good as Duo B:D; arguably better in some situations (unlike Duo B:D weak launching can reduce the effectiveness of common threats like Wyvang). The shape and height of B:D allows Dragooon it to remain upright longer without falling, unlike SA165EWD (granted SA165EWD has much better LAD so the tradeoff is approximately equal), and B:D's ability to precess at low spin velocities without moving only makes weak launching the combo more effective, as some users (I know Stormscorpio is at least one) find that B:D is also harder to KO when it's precessing like that. Plus you're a lot less likely to get the late game "unlucky tilt" that's common among D-series Tips.

I'm still on the fence about RF-based Defense however. What I'm struggling to understand is in what case is it a better choice than Anti-Attack or RSF/RB/RDF Defense? You've got about the same chance of beating Attack as RSF/RB/RDF based Defense. You're more likely to be closer the edge of the Stadium where a head on collision could KO you, but at the same time you'll be harder to hit than even an aggressively launched RSF/RB/RDF. You miss out on the Stamina of those Tips as well: If an Attacker fails to KO RSF/RB/RDF, it will almost always be OSed, while that's a lot less likely to be the case using RF. True you're more likely to KO, but I'd be tempted to say the chances of OSing using RSF/RB/RDF are greater than that of KOing with such passive Metal Wheels on RF. As for Anti-Attack, both will normally win the Attack matchup (maybe Anti-Attack is less likely because of the recoil), but while Anti-Attack can also KO Stamina RF-based Defense is a lot less likely to do that, and can't OS Stamina or Defense.

(May. 30, 2015  12:19 AM)Wombat Wrote: [ -> ]I'm still on the fence about RF-based Defense however. What I'm struggling to understand is in what case is it a better choice than Anti-Attack or RSF/RB/RDF Defense? You've got about the same chance of beating Attack as RSF/RB/RDF based Defense. You're more likely to be closer the edge of the Stadium where a head on collision could KO you, but at the same time you'll be harder to hit than even an aggressively launched RSF/RB/RDF. You miss out on the Stamina of those Tips as well: If an Attacker fails to KO RSF/RB/RDF, it will almost always be OSed, while that's a lot less likely to be the case using RF. True you're more likely to KO, but I'd be tempted to say the chances of OSing using RSF/RB/RDF are greater than that of KOing with such passive Metal Wheels on RF. As for Anti-Attack, both will normally win the Attack matchup (maybe Anti-Attack is less likely because of the recoil), but while Anti-Attack can also KO Stamina RF-based Defense is a lot less likely to do that, and can't OS Stamina or Defense.

I agree with this, totally. Definitely not super convinced about RF Defense on the list. It's definitely an option and not a bad one at that, but I feel like as Wombat said; the other options we have are generally a bit better to use.

My arguments lol:

@RF Defense: Way more difficult to KO, because of this: RS/RB/RDF/RSF remain still in the centre [or move around abit] which means a good slam from an Attack type sends you flying. RF on the other hand, moves, so the attacker is more likely to land a hit that doesn't do enough damage to send them flying. But RF Defense, being ineffective against Stamina, definitely gets outclassed by Anti-Attack. I'd say this is an option only.

@GF: Lol nope, way too difficult to control especially if you have massive strength. Even if you manage to control it, it wouldn't be able to KO anything. Stick to XF guys, that permits much harder launching, and tbh it's control is not that bad.

B : D: DEFINITELY PLEASE. This thing outspins quite a good amount of stuff, and assuming your B is aggresive and/or you're using an aggresive enough wheel on the bottom, you can KO some stuff too. Weaklaunching is also a good tactic. This combo is so versatile, I can't see it not being on the list. Watch out around mah Genbull^2 SA165RDF tho lol.

I don't like RF Defense, but I will admit it is extremely good. They both definitely have perks, depending on your chrome wheel setup while on RF (Example: Wyvang^2 compared to Genbull^2 or Revizer^2). These specific combos are close to being Balance as they are also Anti-Attack too (in most cases anyway). BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, RDF based defense has a substantially better chance against left spin than RF based stuff.
Me personally, I can KO a good half of the Stamina meta with my defense combos. (Launch power and aim yo)
So not only is it dependent on the setup of your bey, but also blader strength/skill.

As far as adding any Dragooon GF setups goes, I really haven't done much testing with them myself, but the results I'm seeing around the site are pretty incredible.

From the little testing I did do, I had some late-game troubles with Dragooon D125/T125GF against taller Stamina customs, but that's the only real concern I have (although, it is a fairly serious concern, seeing as I couldn't get it to beat Duo TB with any kind of consistency).

The way I see it, it's an improvement on conventional Dragooon customs as far as Stamina vs. Stamina matches go, and it seems less vulnerable to Attack. Launching might prove difficult for some people, but I don't think that justifies ignoring its successes. Seeing as I'm inexperienced with this particular type of custom, what setups would you guys propose we add?

As far as RF-based Defense goes, I'd like to make three points here:

• They are not Anti-Attack customs, which I have covered extensively before in public discussion.
  

• They are not any more vulnerable to Dragooon Attack than RDF Defenders are (less so, actually).
  

• As shown in testing, they are actually 2-3 times as effective against Attack customs as stationary Defense combinations.
  

I'd encourage anybody curious about the proposed amendments to the Defense section to read this thread, this thread, and this Beywiki article. Everything should be explained between them.

Oh, and one more thing - concerning the argument that Anti-Attack "outclasses" RF-based Defense, I must remind everyone that Balance and Defense are two different categories on the tier list. A Balance type cannot outclass a Defense type, by definition. Again, for a comparison between these two, read the Beywiki article linked above.

RF Defense is simply an improvement on stationary Defense. They are both the same exact type of custom, with the same application. If we decline to list RF Defense because Anti-Attack is just as effective against Attack (which is actually not true, per say), by that same logic, all stationary Defense should be removed as well. After all, Anti-Attack is more effective against Attack than stationary Defense is.

See what I mean?

(Jun. 01, 2015  8:59 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: [ -> ]As far as RF-based Defense goes, I'd like to make three points here:

• They are not Anti-Attack customs, which I have covered extensively before in public discussion.
  

• They are not any more vulnerable to Dragooon Attack than RDF Defenders are (less so, actually).
  

• As shown in testing, they are actually 2-3 times as effective against Attack customs as stationary Defense combinations.
  

I'm pretty sure we're all aware that Anti-Attack and RF Defense are different things. Anti-Attack is designed to use the Attacker's recoil against it (to go for the KO) while neutralizing its own recoil (to prevent being KOed itself) while RF Defense is more about shutting down the Attacker's momentum and going for the OS. A problem inherent in both of these matchups however, is that both the Anti-Attack custom and the RF Defense custom have a chance of being outspun by the Attack custom. So what I'm saying is that while yes, both have a chance of winning through OS, it is the additional chance of KO that gives Anti-Attack a broader application of use than RF Defense (which goes back to what you said about Anti-Attack being Balance and RF Defense being Defense).

I don't recall any of the recent posts ever mentioning Dragooon Attack, so that point is somewhat irrelevant, but more of an add-on to your third point: RF Defense/Stationary Defense vs. Attack.

As for RF Defense vs. Stationary Defense, it's really a tradeoff between being harder to hit and having more Stamina. Stationary is obviously a lot easier to hit, but since it is in the middle of the Stadium, it will have to suffer a much stronger hit to be KOed than a Beyblade closer to the outer edge. RF Defense would be that Beyblade on the outer edge, and while it is more difficult to hit than a Stationary Defense type, it would require less power to KO since it would have to travel less distance. Additionally, even if RF Defense avoids the KO, there is still a greater chance of it being OSed by the Attacker than Stationary Defense. After going back through your tests it seems that the chance of avoiding the KO using RF Defense is greater than I thought, but there's still the tradeoff of being OSed more often. I guess it depends more on whether you launch to avoid attacks or try to meet them head on to cut off the Attack type's momentum (which may not be a good decision seeing as both Wyvang and Dragooon outweigh Genbull).

Like I've talked about before, T/D125 is not in a range that works on Dragoooon GF, I think the setups that need to be added are: Genbull Dragooon BD145/LW105/105 GF

I'm fine with the list in its current state; personally, I'm a fan of RF Defense, though I don't have enough experience with GF to weigh in on the Dragooon GF decision.

: The first two points were directed toward DrPepsidew's post below yours.

Actually, an RF Defender will almost never be out-spun by an Attack combination - you'd be surprised how much of a late-game advantage a low-recoil wheel and a bulky setup can give you against an Attack combination. I have never had trouble with an Anti-Attacker or an RF Defender being outspun by an Attack custom in competition or in testing (during which, I might add, Anti-Attack/RF Defense is always launched first, which plays a larger role in determining the winner of an RF vs. RF match than you might think).

As far as Anti-Attack having the advantage of landing a KO, yes, you are right to a certain extent, but you also have to remember that because of that extra aggression, an Anti-Attack custom has a much greater chance of being KOed as well, so its not really much of an advantage (it's actually more of a disadvantage most of the time).

That, and RF Defenders are also perfectly capable of KOing Attack customs too. After all, like you said, the primary cause of an Anti-Attacker or an RF Defender landing a KO on an Attack type is the Attack type's recoil, not necessarily the Anti-Attacker/RF Defender's smash (while that does play a minor role, it's only slightly consequential when it comes to a head-on collision, and the Attack type's recoil is almost always the deciding factor).

To illustrate this point, I dug up a couple of tests:

Quote:MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RF vs. Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
Genbull launched first on all launches. Wyvangs calm molds. Prime R2F. Prime RF
Genbull: wins, 21/25 (6 KO, 15 OS)
Wyvang: wins, 4/25 (All KO)
MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RF win rate: 84%

MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF vs. Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F
Girago launched first on all launches. Pretty worn RF, Prime R2F.
Girago: wins, 16/20 (3 KO, 13 OS)
Wyvang: wins, 4/20 (All KO)
MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF win rate: 80%

Now, these tests were done at totally different times under different conditions, so the win rates themselves aren't comparable, but take a look at the number of KOs and OSs from Girago and Genbull in each matchup; about 19% KO rate for Girago, and about 29% KO rate for Genbull.

Now, again, these tests weren't conducted at the same time or under identical conditions, so we shouldn't assume they're completely comparable, but they're at least enough to show that RF Defenders can be just as capable of KOing conventional Attack as Anti-Attackers can.

Now, as far as RF Defense vs. stationary Defense goes:

Wombat Wrote:As for RF Defense vs. Stationary Defense, it's really a tradeoff between being harder to hit and having more Stamina. Stationary is obviously a lot easier to hit, but since it is in the middle of the Stadium, it will have to suffer a much stronger hit to be KOed than a Beyblade closer to the outer edge. RF Defense would be that Beyblade on the outer edge, and while it is more difficult to hit than a Stationary Defense type, it would require less power to KO since it would have to travel less distance.

This seems like a logical conclusion to draw, but it's actually not true; RF Defense's most valuable asset against Attack is not its ability to avoid collision, but the ability to endure it more effectively. RF Defense isn't actually that great at avoiding hits from Attack types - collisions happen pretty much just as frequently as they do with stationary Defense, but the extra traction and momentum provided by RF makes the Defender virtually immoveable. The increase in stability is so dramatic, the fact that the Defender is closer to the TR is inconsequential.

All of this is explained in the OP of the MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RF thread that I linked above.

In a nutshell, avoiding collision has nothing to do with it; RF actually makes the Defender far more difficult to KO.

Even then, at the end of the day, whether we think stationary Defense is better equipped in a Stamina match, or RF Defense is vulnerable because of its position in the stadium, or stationary Defense is more stable, you can't ignore the fact that, even with all those factors in play, RF Defense is still far more successful against Attack in testing.

I would still highly, highly recommend that anybody involved in this discussion read the resources I linked above; pretty much everything relating to the Defense update is explained there.

: That's what I was thinking, but I didn't know if Killerken or Girago or some other Bottom Chrome Wheel needed to be added; is there a reason you only listed Genbull?

@RF vs Stationary Defense: Stationary defense just waits to get hit, so when a good hit is landed, the force transferred brings a large change in direction of the Defense type [i.e getting knocked around silly], potentially causing a KO. RF Defense neutralizes this, because the movement of RF means that an impact from the same Attack type will cause small or no change in direction, hence the defender only moves a tiny tidbit.

Besides, RF when worn down enough catches the ridge really well.

I'm still not in favor of GF tho. It's got too much self-KO issues, and little if any grip.

I don't think RF based defense deserve a spot in the tier list. it could be a great add-on in competition but not that strenght. I prefered using my balance combo MSF genbull^2 t125 MF to counter any attackers(RF or not), beat defense and Stamina combos. and it did well in my last tournament. surprising a lot of bladers with this kind of combo too.

(Jun. 02, 2015  2:55 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: [ -> ]: That's what I was thinking, but I didn't know if Killerken or Girago or some other Bottom Chrome Wheel needed to be added; is there a reason you only listed Genbull?

You've got to use my favorite little tagging feature, buddy, it was almost luck that I didn't miss this.
Honestly, It's the only one I have substantial experience with. In my initial testing, I really liked Balro for its added attack potential, but once I started the Stamina tests, it just took away too much stamina and ability to OS. Killerken would probably work and Zirago might, but that's more gut intuition than anything quantitative
@[TheBlackDragon]