(Sep. 09, 2013 4:14 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]There's no point in debating whether CF or GCF is better for F230 at this point, in my opinion. They're both good enough to be listed.
Totally agree with that.
However... do you think it would be a good idea to list them
now? I mean, few people on here actually have a good orange F230, and it hasn't been tested much in the BB-10 at all... sure, Death did pretty well, but do we have any formal testing for Dragooon yet? :\ I don't know... It's a little to soon IMHO.
Anywho, about a final draft, does anyone actually object to anything on this?
Quote:Attack
Wyvang
1. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)
2. Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Zero-G attack mode) (R2F/RF/LRF)
These combos have both put up stunning results against some tough defenders,
here and
here.
Balro
1. Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)
Although Balro has not been formally tested with these exact tracks, it's put up great results with the same heights in
this thread. W145 is obviously the superior substitute for CH145 if you don't want the height-change function. I found GB145 and MSF-H to slow this down a bit much for my taste...
Flash
1. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)
2. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) W145MF
Although its weight can be a bit of a problem in some scenarios, flash does have relatively low recoil, and its speed and controllability can be advantageous. It's smash is very viable as well, hitting up to 60-70% against Revizer, as well as pulling higher numbers than any Synchrom attacker against the ever popular Duo defenders. I mean, come on, it's flash...
Defense
Duo
1. MF-H Duo (Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)
Duo is just amazing... it's got more stamina than any other defensive wheel out there, and yet it can still pull some of the highest numbers against the new Synchrom attacker.
Reviser/Killerken
1. MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Revizer/Killerken BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
2. MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)
Both of the Chrome Wheels have put up and still put up amazing results against traditional attackers in the past, and nothing seems to have topped them yet, so...
Genbull
1. MSF-H Genbull/Revizer Genbull BD145 (RDF/RB)
No one seemed to pay much attention to it, but when Genbull was first tested for defense, it put up numbers 50%
higher than Reviser against Flash. From testing Both Formal and informal, I have found it to be absolutely amazing on BD145. Although it doesn't seem to perform well on CS or E230, it can be an amazing mid-height defender. Check out some formal results
here and
here.
Scythe
1. MF-H Scythe ______ 85RS
This thing is amazing... although it seems a bit, well, weird, it's put up some startling results against incredibly powerful attack types
here and
here.
Stamina
Duo
1. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) 230 (D/SD)
3. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) TH170 (D/SD)
4. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) SR200TB
5. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) 160PD
It's Duo... it just totally rocks. The only thing that can come close to matching this wheel IMO is Genbull.
Genbull
1. Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
2. Genbull Genbull TH170TB
Genbull has put up some impressive numbers used in stamina combinations
here and
here...
Phantom
1. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)
These combos are continuing to succeed in events as I have heard, and although its recoil can produce a huge issue in certain circumstances, you just can't ignore Phantom's amazing endurance capabilities, putting up far higher solo spin times than any other wheel released so far.
Dragooon
1. (MSF-H) Reviser Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) EWD
This thing rocks... it takes down pretty much anything using right rotation (save most attackers). It's Precession and LAD are incredible. Check it out
here.
Balance
1. MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF
This combo continues to succeed against so many combos I can't keep count. Just the pure spin time alone is enough to impress me...
2. MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF
This combo is still a great counter to most attack types, and it can still produce very, very viable results against stamina types as well. I see no reason to leave it off of the list.
3. (MF-H/MF-M) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus) 230MB
This combo is still dominant in specific areas, and continues to put up stunning results against most of the new combos we have been testing. This one's definitely a keeper.
4. MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF
This combo is pretty decent. Not one of my favorites, but you really can't ignore the results it's been able to put up. This thing can pretty much force smash the polycarbonate out of anything below 160. Tests are
here.
5. MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF
This thing is absolutely beast in every way, shape, and form... this is one of my favorite combos of all time. Check it out
here.
6. MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF
I've tried this a LOT against just about everything, and so far, it's completely stomped anything remotely related to attack. Check it out
here.
7. Reviser Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) RDF
I like this combo... it's a nice variation of spin equalizer, with the added defense to back it up against right-spin attackers. Check out the results
here.
8. Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF
This combo has put up some viable numbers as a balance type, and seems to be a popular combo among the users I've discussed it with... so, up it goes! Check out the testing
here.
For Revizer Dragooon SA165RDF, I would include BD145... IIRC some people prefer BD145 over the taller SA165.
I agree, it gives it a defensive edge.
Actually, the main reason is to keep the combo's height down... a few people claimed that the tall tip and Track caused it to be somewhat unstable.
(Sep. 09, 2013 8:53 PM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]For Revizer Dragooon SA165RDF, I would include BD145... IIRC some people prefer BD145 over the taller SA165.
Well, Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF is already up there.
IIRC that's just an improvement on Reviser Dragooon BD145RDF... I don't really see a reason to put Reviser there when Wyvang is clearly superior.
Wyvang only works with a agro RDF right?
(Sep. 09, 2013 9:55 PM)AZL Wrote: [ -> ]Wyvang only works with a agro RDF right?
Em... No, I don't believe so. :\ As long as it has traction, Wyvang can KO stamina types easily most of the time.
(Sep. 09, 2013 9:45 PM)theblackdragon Wrote: [ -> ] (Sep. 09, 2013 8:53 PM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]For Revizer Dragooon SA165RDF, I would include BD145... IIRC some people prefer BD145 over the taller SA165.
Well, Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF is already up there. IIRC that's just an improvement on Reviser Dragooon BD145RDF... I don't really see a reason to put Reviser there when Wyvang is clearly superior.
Then wouldn't Wyvang outclass Revizer SA165 too?
I'm pretty down with that list.
Reviser Dragooon BD145RDF is a darn good left-spin defense type, which our current lists don't really address well. I'd say that adding left-spin defenders would be a good project for the next list's iteration.
(Sep. 10, 2013 1:07 AM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ] (Sep. 09, 2013 9:45 PM)theblackdragon Wrote: [ -> ] (Sep. 09, 2013 8:53 PM)Cake Wrote: [ -> ]For Revizer Dragooon SA165RDF, I would include BD145... IIRC some people prefer BD145 over the taller SA165.
Well, Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF is already up there. IIRC that's just an improvement on Reviser Dragooon BD145RDF... I don't really see a reason to put Reviser there when Wyvang is clearly superior.
Then wouldn't Wyvang outclass Revizer SA165 too?
Because Reviser Dragooon SA165RDF is a spin-equalizer, and if you increase its recoil it will be much less effective at stealing spin, whereas Wyvang Dragooon is a defense type, so adding smash just helps against its weakness: stamina.
: That's great!
Does anyone else object to anything? If not we might be able to send this off to the advanced forum...
I just checked it out...
really, really, nice job!
I think I speak for the entire community, when I say its amazing how much effort you put into this!
I personally like the list that TheBlackDragon has up!
But wait, where's F230 on that list? Genbull Dragooon F230CF/GCF?
Nice!
Personally, I think Girago Dragooon F230 GCF is good enough to go up, and like I said, hate H145, but I can agree with the rest.
spin defense: I hate left spin defense. If you know what your doing, preeeety easy to KO. Just destabilize it and give it a good push, and there ya go...
Ok I'll try:
Attack:
-MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145/H145? (RF/R2F)
-MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon SA165(attack mode) (R2F/RF/LRF)
-MSF-H Balro Balro (TR145/S130/CH120) R2F/RF/MF?
Defense:
-MSF-H Killerken/Reviser Reviser E230/BD145 RSF/RB/CS
-MF-H Duo Bull BD145 CS/RSF
-MSF-H Reviser Genbull E230/BD145 RSF/RB
Stamina:
-Phantom/Duo Gasher/Aquario/Cygnus 230/th170 D
-Phantom Aquario/Gasher 85 MF
-Duo Gasher/Aquario 160 PD
-Duo Gasher/Aquario w145 wd/ewd/bwd?
-Genbull Genbull SR200/TH170 TB
-Reviser Dragooon SA165 EWD
Balance:
-Duo Gasher/Aquario 230 MB
-MF-H Diablo Kerbecs bd145 (R2F/RF)
-MSF-H Girago Girago bd145 (R2F/RF)
-Duo/Death Gasher/ETC. F230 CF/GCF
-MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang bd145 RSF
-MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon bd145 RDF
-Genbull Dragooon f230 CF/GCF
H145 is really good from my experiences... it also takes down those pesky Scythe combos... it has won in tournaments recently too. I haven't really seen tests on left spin defense besides Drgaoon SA165RDF
: F230 just needs more testing in the BB-10 first... I'm not denying that it totally rocks, but we don't have any formal testing recorded for it yet. :\ I think it would be great to add eventually, but IMO it's not a good idea to put something on the tier list with no valid,
standard test results to back it up... If you ask me, I think we should wait 'till next time, when we can get our hands on some testing.
: My opinion is the same here...
I don't believe Girago Dragooon has any results posted, much less confirmed ones.
As for H145, what exactly was your problem with it? I think it's awesome... XD
Overall, for _______F230CF and Girago Dragooon E230GCF, I think it would be a good idea to wait until we have valid, confirmed test results to back them up. I have no doubt that they work, but no tests = uncertainty for people who don't own the parts. :\ Solid, confirmed information is always better to have, IMHO.
Death on e230 is another thing that needs to be looked into because of how deep e230 extends into the metal wheel.
(Sep. 10, 2013 4:45 PM)Time Wrote: [ -> ]Death on e230 is another thing that needs to be looked into because of how deep e230 extends into the metal wheel.
I hope you don't mind me asking... how exactly would that be beneficial? :\ E230 is used for defense, and putting a light metal wheel that extends lower (is more likely to make metal-to-metal contact) is just disadvantageous in the face of Synchrom (heavy, higher off the ground), IMHO, since E230 is absorbing all of the hits.
That's exactly why I don't like Duo on E230; I just don't think it's the most effective choice.
Plus, you would probably just wanna use Duo anyway.
EDIT: Is everybody down on the list so far?
EDIT#2: : No RDF for defense??
You made it sad... JK XD
The lower height allows death to use its grinding ability against opposite spin to outspin. I don't have any formal tests I have just seen it a lot at tournaments. Particularly, Death E230 CF
edit: shoot, my bad this is bb-10, I was thinking this was zero-g
does flash still deserve on the tier list? I mean it's said as soon as I find out I have a top-tier part I find out it's outclassed and I was a tad with the flash testing thread wich I read 3 times I already know Balro Balro and Wyvang Wyvang do it's job better but I think it should be on the tier list but what I want to know is wether you think it should be on the tier list or not cause according to the lis Kyler_thebest has it's not on there
EDIT: how come rdf's not on there for defence?
Flash still has enough Attack power to be competitive, and its high Stamina in comparison to other Attack types makes MF Flash Orion W145MF a deadly combo. Granted, it's not as good as it used to be, but it's still a very viable option.
Flash is beginning to be outclassed by synchromes like Wyvang^2.
yeah I stated that including Balro*2 but not alot of people have the money to buy 2 BBG-25's and don;t even get me started on the parents...
My draft:
ATTACK
MF-H Flash Orion/Belzeeb/Ionis GB145/W145/H145/S130/CH120 R2F/LRF/RF
Flash Orion/Belzeeb/Ionis W145 MF
MSF-H Wyvang^2 GB145/W145/H145/CH120 R2F/LRF/RF
Wyvang Dragooon SA165 RF/R2F/LRF (RF probably works the best).
MSF-H Balro^2 S130/CH120/W145 R2F/LRF/RF
Bahamida Ifraid H145/CH120/S130/SA165/W145 RF/R2F/LRF
BALANCE
Wyvang^2 BD145RSF
Revizer Dragooon E230CF/GCF (defeats many Wyvang/Balro combos).
Phantom Cygnus 90/85MF
Duo Aquario/Cygnus/cancer 230MB (it is weak agianst attack though).
Diablo Kerbecs/Striker BD145 RF/R2F
Duo/Death Cygnus/Aquario/Cancer F230CF/GCF
Wyvang Dragooon BD145/SA165RDF
MSF-L/F Girago^2 BD145RF/R2F
DEFENSE
MF-H Scythe Uranus/Picses/Horuseus (maybe) 85 RS
MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Revizer/Killerken E230/BD145 RSF/RB/RDF/CS
MF-H Duo Bull/Aquario/Cygnus E230/BD145 RDF/RSF/RB/CS.
STAMINA
Duo Cancer/Aquario/Cygnus/Hades W145/AD145 BWD/WD
Duo 160 PD
Duo TH170 D/SD
Duo 230 D/SD
Phantom Hades/Cancer/Cygnus W145/AD145 WD
Phantom TH170 D/SD
Phantom 230 D/SD
Genbull^2 SR200/TH170 TB/CS
Revizer Dragooon SA165 EWD/WD
Need to test Girago KillerKen W145GF