World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.

So does a Phantom 85 MF and basically every combination being considered, except for the Wyvang attack types and maybe Dragooon BD145 RDF.

Gryph x2 E230BSF destroys lower customs. Even though it cannot "pinch" them, E230s disk sucks their stamina dry by grinding on them. That is courtesy of Gryph's super spin velocity, and works very similar to a plastic compact in that respect.

, I've only glanced quickly over the list, but it is looking great.

Yeah, I really haven't worked on my launching for Gryph x2 E230BSF at all (mainly for the lack of BB-10), causing me to not really have an idea of ways to use it against lower customs.

(Jun. 11, 2013  3:47 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: [ -> ] Balro CH120 R2F and Bahamdia Ifraid SA165 R2F: I disagree with adding these. They're worse against BD145 than Wyvang Wyvang IIRC. I know they do better against E230, but if you really want to beat E230, use Wyvang Dragooon SA165 R2F, which gets 90% against it.

Balro Balro CH120R2F vs. Reviser Reviser BD145RDF
New RDF. Pretty worn R2F. Reviser launched first on all launches.
Balro: wins, 12/20 (All KO)
Reviser: wins, 8/20 (All OS)
Balro Balro CH120R2F win rate: 60%

I wouldn't call that half bad against BD145.

Neither would I.

However, when you look at Wyvang Wyvang, which gets roughly 75%, and Wyvang Dragooon, which gets 65%, it looks like tier two material.

Shinobu, you realize Flash gets 35% on a good day, right lol? 60% isn't "Tier 2", it's "Overwhelmingly Tier 1"

The way I see the current attack meta is this:

Flash is a very passable attack type, is rather consistent, and has some of the best stamina among attackers. It does, however, have trouble with hardcore Synchrom defenders.

Bahamdia Ifraid has a pretty huge amount of smash, is ludicrously heavy (which helps tame recoil a bit), and can KO most Synchrom defenders pretty hard, but it's got consistency issues.

Wyvang Wyvang is absurdly incredible at attacking, and is very consistent. It has not insignificant recoil, but more importantly it has a big counter in E230. This is important because if Wyvang is popular in a meta, if the other players are worth their salt then they'll pull out E230 more often.

Balro Balro CH120RF is very versatile, and while it has a lower win rate than Wyvang's absurd numbers, it still has positive win rates against Synchrom defenders (notably nearly double Flash's results). Most importantly, it takes down E230. Thus, it's kind of a jack-of-all-trades, master of none: while it doesn't KO BD145 as hard as Wyvang Wyvang, it still does a passable job while being able to tackle E230.

Wyvang Dragooon SA165R2F is an incredible attacker, easily the best left-spin attacker in the current metagame IMO. That's certainly part of its amazing rates against E230, since left-spin slaughters tall customs. It's really, really good.

(Did I miss any attackers lol? I hope not :v )

Okay, first of all, I get 60% with Flash against Revizer Revizer BD145 RDF. It does get murdered by E230, so that isn't good. I guess Flash could go off too.

I'm probably fighting a losing battle here, but I honestly think only the absolute best should go up.

Oh, by the way, this may not be true with Wyvang Wyvang, but when I tested Goreim Wyvang I think I got around 50% vs E230. I'll see when my second Wyvang arrives.

By the way, what are your thoughts on the other things I said?

Flash is still a very viable Attack Wheel.

I think some people forget that in a rock-paper-scissors game like Beyblade, where Defense is supposed to beat Attack, the fact that rock is beating paper at all is pretty incredible.

Wait... don't you mean scissors beating rock? Ahahahah

Ok anyway, yes Flash does beat Duo, which is something synchrom attackers seem to struggle with. Overall, each has it's own perks as Ingulit mentioned.

I am all for Genbull going up for Defense. It is practically a tank and as tests have shown in the testing thread, it has equal if not better defense than Revizer. It is smooth and there is much less surface area for attackers to grab onto, not to mention it's blistering stamina when synchromed with itself, which could theoretically help it outspin other defenders. I definitely want to contribute to the testing for Genbull to "officially" back up my claims, but so far, it is looking great.

(Jun. 11, 2013  10:44 PM)ShinobuXD Wrote: [ -> ]Neither would I.

However, when you look at Wyvang Wyvang, which gets roughly 75%, and Wyvang Dragooon, which gets 65%, it looks like tier two material.

Wyvang Dragooon SA165R2F vs. Reviser Reviser BD145RDF
Reviser launched first on all launches. Worn R2F. Slightly Worn RDF.
Dragooon: wins, 12/20 (All KO)
Reviser: wins, 8/20 (7 OS, 1 KO)
Wyvang Dragooon SA165R2F win rate: 60%

Balro Balro CH120R2F vs. Reviser Reviser BD145RDF
Reviser launched first on all launches. Worn R2F. Slightly worn RDF.
Balro: wins, 12/20 (All KO)
Reviser: wins, 8/20 (All OS)
Balro Balro CH120R2F win rate: 60%

,

Spoiler (Click to View)

There's one thing about this... The fact that you and I tested these combos separately, with different parts with different levels of ware, makes the results variable. Either my parts were more worn than yours, or you're slightly better at launching attack types than me.

Regardless, When the same blader tests the two combos against the same conventional defense type, with the same parts, stadium, launcher, etc. they pretty much end up dead even.

Also, I didn't post the results showing it, but When I try Wyvang Dragooon SA165R2F against ____ ____ E230 RDF, it can't OS it no matter how many times I try.

Also, The reason Goriem Wyvang works against E230, is if you look closely, the feather thing at the top (Wyvang's main contact point) actually extends silghtly over Goriem/Gryph's diameter, so Wyvang is actually hanging over, causing the contact to occur higher before it conects lower.

With Wyvang Wyvang, this is obviously on longer true, so It makes contact with the disk on E230 before/at the same time it hits the chrome/metal wheel. So E230 just soaks it a lot more. When I try it, Wyvang^2 just can't pull hard-core KOs on E230 combos, whereas Balro can send them hurtling. However, Wyvang is obviously miles ahead of Balro against BD145 combos.

,

Spoiler (Click to View)

I love genbull. It's a boss. I don't have 2 yet, though, so I can't really test out its defense paired with itself. Just from looking at it I could guess that it would have problems with lower/higher than normal attackers, since the smooth edge is very thin. Again, can't test so that's a total guess.

(Jun. 12, 2013  12:49 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, what are your thoughts on the other things I said?

Sorry, I'll do that now:

(Jun. 11, 2013  3:47 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: [ -> ]My thoughts:
Dragooon SA165 R2F- No metal stone face. Slows it down too much.

Noted, good to know, thank you!

(Jun. 11, 2013  3:47 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: [ -> ]: What is this up there for? I haven't seen any tests showing it is good.

In my own testing I have never ever noticed a difference between LW160 and 160 performance wise, but __160PD probably shouldn't go up at all until more people test it :\

(Jun. 11, 2013  3:47 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: [ -> ]: I believe it should be taken off. Stamina is supposed to beat defense, but with Phantom, Revizer Revizer BD145 CS will KO you. And tbh, it doesn't offer any advantage over Duo.

You raise a very good point, though at the moment I think it should stay on. Yes, it has SIGNIFICANTLY more recoil than Duo, but that's more the fault of Duo having absolutely none compared to Phantom having any. IIRC Phantom has better overall stamina, and I've personally always liked Phantom on W145 more than Duo. (Also, though this isn't relevant anymore, Phantom is also leagues better than Duo on BD145EDS and low tracks)

While I totally see where you're coming from, I think Phantom is still a very viable alternative to Duo. You trade recoil for better stability/overall stamina, which I think is more a personal preference than anything.

(Jun. 11, 2013  3:47 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: [ -> ] Balro TR145 MF- KainHighwind and I both really like this. It is an absolute beast. There's some tests we did, in the Balro discussion thread IIRC.

Ah, carp, I forgot to check the discussion threads when I was making this draft x) I'll check it out, if the numbers are there then I can see an argument for it being listed.

(Jun. 11, 2013  3:47 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: [ -> ]: Definitley keep it on IMO. It takes hits from Synchrom attackers better than Revizer Revizer, so I'd say it certainly deserves a spot.

100% agree

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(Jun. 11, 2013  3:53 AM)Time Wrote: [ -> ]Just a techy thing, Phantom Cygnus 85MF still works exceptionally well on 90 and Aquario needs to be added as an alternate option to cygnus

That's completely valid. I'd say something like this would be good:

Clear Wheels: Cygnus, Hades, Aquario, Cancer/Gasher, (etc?)
(MF-L) Phantom [Attack] ____ (85/90) MF

I've heard some people even liked 100, though I feel that's too high myself.

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(Jun. 12, 2013  2:51 AM)Meow! Wrote: [ -> ]I am all for Genbull going up for Defense. It is practically a tank and as tests have shown in the testing thread, it has equal if not better defense than Revizer. It is smooth and there is much less surface area for attackers to grab onto, not to mention it's blistering stamina when synchromed with itself, which could theoretically help it outspin other defenders. I definitely want to contribute to the testing for Genbull to "officially" back up my claims, but so far, it is looking great.

I was thinking about adding it!! While at first I thought I noticed recoil I've come around to think the same thing; the only reason I didn't list it was because I wasn't sure if other people thought the same, haha!

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(Jun. 11, 2013  11:55 AM)*Ginga* Wrote: [ -> ]...He is right in some ways, but then again, using Time's argument, nothing should be on the tier list because they all have counters.

Strawww mannnn

Come on, don't be all logical fallacy up in here, it's not cool at all

Eh, just trying to prove a point lol

Uhm, guys, some points I wanted to place.
- (MSF-H) Revizer Dragooon B as a potential top-tier for BB-10(Screwed everyone with it during Thane, India tournament)
- LW160 on Left-spin beys; Top-tier stamina potential?
- CF for Tornado Stalling. Anyone tried it?
- SP230/TH170 MF set up with Synchromes. Defense+Weight distribution= better than 230 MF
- Gryph Gryph 100 RF. Potential top-tier Attack?
- Low height attack customs. Where did they go?

If anyone could test what Zeneo has said that would be awesome because I know it's all correct but i'm busy with my own projects so I can't test all of it.

My thoughts:
Dragooon SA165 R2F- No metal stone face. Slows it down too much.
Are you kidding? MSF would at least have to be a Medium to be a little "faster". It doesn't need a MSF
: What is this up there for? I haven't seen any tests showing it Has great Stamina, like W145.

(Jun. 13, 2013  1:19 PM)Shining God MS Wrote: [ -> ]My thoughts:
Dragooon SA165 R2F- No metal stone face. Slows it down too much.
Are you kidding? MSF would at least have to be a Medium to be a little "faster". It doesn't need a MSF
: What is this up there for? I haven't seen any tests showing it Has great Stamina, like W145.

No one tested it because it obviously have recoil, but with the right combo should have some use
Killerken/Revizer Dragooon LW160CF should be tested for Spin Equalizer/Tornado Staller (KainHighwing suggested me to use LW160CF when searching for a combo for my L-Drago Destroy, it's been months I still cannot test it!)

(Jun. 13, 2013  1:19 PM)Shining God MS Wrote: [ -> ]My thoughts:
Dragooon SA165 R2F- No metal stone face. Slows it down too much.
Are you kidding? MSF would at least have to be a Medium to be a little "faster". It doesn't need a MSF
: What is this up there for? I haven't seen any tests showing it Has great Stamina, like W145.

That's my point. It's just as good as W145 but no has realised that yet.

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(Jun. 13, 2013  1:31 PM)Izhkoort Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jun. 13, 2013  1:19 PM)Shining God MS Wrote: [ -> ]My thoughts:
Dragooon SA165 R2F- No metal stone face. Slows it down too much.
Are you kidding? MSF would at least have to be a Medium to be a little "faster". It doesn't need a MSF
: What is this up there for? I haven't seen any tests showing it Has great Stamina, like W145.

No one tested it because it obviously have recoil, but with the right combo should have some use
Killerken/Revizer Dragooon LW160CF should be tested for Spin Equalizer/Tornado Staller (KainHighwing suggested me to use LW160CF when searching for a combo for my L-Drago Destroy, it's been months I still cannot test it!)

1000% agree. Someone test this ASAP!

(Jun. 13, 2013  12:27 PM)zeneo Wrote: [ -> ]Uhm, guys, some points I wanted to place.
- (MSF-H) Revizer Dragooon B as a potential top-tier for BB-10(Screwed everyone with it during Thane, India tournament)
- LW160 on Left-spin beys; Top-tier stamina potential?
- CF for Tornado Stalling. Anyone tried it?
- SP230/TH170 MF set up with Synchromes. Defense+Weight distribution= better than 230 MF
- Gryph Gryph 100 RF. Potential top-tier Attack?
- Low height attack customs. Where did they go?

Anything on B: D in a BB-10 stadium is seriously very easy to KO, however heavy it may be, tbh. I mean, that is a top tier custom for Zero-G stadiums. Of course it was tried in BB-10 a few times...

LW160 might have Stamina potential of course. Its a decent height and it is optimized for Left Spin. Ingulit posted above that 160 and LW160 don't differ by much. So well, it can be considered as an alternative to 160, or the Left-Spin go-to 160-height track.

CF seems just decent for Tornado Stalling, IMO. It might just lack the relative aggression and Stamina compared to MF, but yeah, might be worth a try just in case we are missing something. The outer ring might result in irregular movements/extreme spin loss should it somehow make contact with the stadium floor though.

What are you aiming at by using MF on high track combinations? When I last checked, threads for Phantom 230MF and Duo 230MF weren't taken seriously because they were not quite good. Attaching Synchroms on a tall track with a tall tip is creating a Stamina/Force-Smash hybrid (if not that, it is an Attack type utilizing the lower Chrome wheel to Attack, with decent Stamina). It might also suffer from Balance issues to be honest. I don't understand how this may become top-tier.

Gryph Gryph is already a well-known Attack synchrom. 100RF was once an extremely popular Attack setup. How is that innovative?

Well, Low Track Attack customs lost their glory in the meta-game since BD145 and 230. Now they also have E230 to add to their misery. Low Track Attackers won't go far unless they are just totally phenomenal.

- How would all that be correct and top-tier worthy, exactly? I am pretty confused right now... :\

>It's just as good as W145, but no one has realized it yet.

I concur, and while not having any tests to back me up (or you at the moment), while experimenting with LW160, I never found it to have the same capabilities as W145 in terms of Stamina. Due to the increased height, and depending on what bottom you use, this can lead to being destabilized easier, similar to 230, just not as extreme.

On top of that, with 145 and 230 being the highly prominent heights for lots of tracks in the game, 160 puts it at an odd height that could give it a height disadvantage. Again, I have no results to prove this at the moment. Before we say that we're sure LW160 is top tier, lets get some tests revved up to prove it.

In reply to zeneo;

(Jun. 13, 2013  12:27 PM)zeneo Wrote: [ -> ]Uhm, guys, some points I wanted to place.
- (MSF-H) Revizer Dragooon B:D as a potential top-tier for BB-10(Screwed everyone with it during Thane, India tournament)
- LW160 on Left-spin beys; Top-tier stamina potential?
- CF for Tornado Stalling. Anyone tried it?
- SP230/TH170 MF set up with Synchromes. Defense+Weight distribution= better than 230 MF
- Gryph Gryph 100 RF. Potential top-tier Attack?
- Low height attack customs. Where did they go?

- Even though it's a great spin stealer, B:D is still easy to KO, even with a ton of weight on it; that might actually be worse for it, actually.

- LW160, like I said, might be good for stamina, but not on left spin combos. Remember that left spin Metal Wheels (LLD, MLD, ect.) have always had poor weight distribution, and even worse stamina by themselves. I doubt that even with the aid of LW160, there aren't any viable left spin combos, even with Dragooon in the meta.

- Can't speak on SP230, I don't own it. And my MF has been broken for quite some time, so when I speak on TH170, this might be outdated, might not, so take it with a grain of salt. When you say it has better defense, I assume you mean because it isn't KO'd as easily, and that's mainly because of the major height difference, and part design for the tracks overall. On MF, 230 is very unstable, usually no matter what the Metal Wheel/other parts are, because MF is so small. It can get destabilized easily. As for TH170, since it's much lower, therefore a lower center of gravity, it's much harder. Not really sure where you were going with that, I can't really tell if you're suggesting it for attack or defense.

- Gryph Gryph is definitely something we need to explore more. When Gryph first came out, Kai-V posted some test, claiming she believed it was equal to, if not better, than Variares, and those results definitely reflected that statement. I can't delve into it unfortunately, I do not own a Gryph, let alone two. However, the 100RF might not be enough. With gigantic, heavy, powerhouses running around (especially on BD145, which I assume is still in the meta, it's been there since it rotated in) 100 isn't really viable for attack anymore, since such low height customs (speaking from an attack standpoint) hit BD145, and nothing really happens. BD145 kinda screwed the meta along with the weight creep. Look into it though, as I said, Gryph Gryph is somethig I want to know more about.

- 230 happened, basically. And BD145.

What Raigeko said is correct. It is top tier for that reason. So can someone please test it?

(Jun. 13, 2013  12:27 PM)zeneo Wrote: [ -> ]Uhm, guys, some points I wanted to place.
- (MSF-H) Revizer Dragooon B as a potential top-tier for BB-10(Screwed everyone with it during Thane, India tournament)

No offense, but it seemed like in that tournament, ___ Dragooon B was versing Earth / Basalt stamina customs, which is not saying much in the current Top Tier meta.

(Jun. 13, 2013  12:27 PM)zeneo Wrote: [ -> ]- LW160 on Left-spin beys; Top-tier stamina potential?

Tests? Was it exclusively against certain heights?

(Jun. 13, 2013  12:27 PM)zeneo Wrote: [ -> ]- CF for Tornado Stalling. Anyone tried it?

I fail to see the relation of Launch Styles and Top Tier list.

(Jun. 13, 2013  12:27 PM)zeneo Wrote: [ -> ]- SP230/TH170 MF set up with Synchromes. Defense+Weight distribution= better than 230 MF

Realistically, better than 230 MF is not saying much.

(Jun. 13, 2013  12:27 PM)zeneo Wrote: [ -> ]- Gryph Gryph 100 RF. Potential top-tier Attack?

Again, you need proofs.

(Jun. 13, 2013  12:27 PM)zeneo Wrote: [ -> ]- Low height attack customs. Where did they go?

They never left 2011.

(Jun. 13, 2013  1:05 PM)Ultra Wrote: [ -> ]If anyone could test what Zeneo has said that would be awesome because I know it's all correct but i'm busy with my own projects so I can't test all of it.

In the future, tests & proofs precede theories. Claiming things as 'correct' before-hand can be misleading, regardless of how it plays in your mind.

I know the flaws of LW160 and CF, that's why I only suggested them together, because in that custom the Circle of Circle Flat has a use, and is to protect the Wings of LW160 so is less possible to destabilize it or knock it out, A regular stamina combo would not be good but a spin equalizer can be good with the LAD given by CF, GCF would not be useful for this, the reason using a synchrom is because has better chances of surviving than previous wheels

I think even Revizer would not be useful for this, Killerken Dragooon LW160CF would be the best combo possible for LW160CF, if that would be tested and doesn't work I think we could say "bye bye" to those parts on BB-10 because they need each other (from my point of view)

Ah, darn, forgot to mention the CF for Tornado Stalling. I don't like it because it's just a WF with a disk around it. Literally, they're the same sizes IIRC, and the disk can really screw up your plans. If you don't have a MF, lots of weight goes towards the outer part of the bey, and then that leads to scraping with CF... In a BB-10. I think that should be enough explanation in itself, haha.

There's really no reason to use CF over WF, though, and even then, WF isn't recommended.

Uwik, that tournament had stuff like Diablo, Flash, and Gryph-Gryph customs. RDBD didn't get KO that easily. Weak launch is the key. I lost in the finals due to that bad LR, or else, I would've killed everyone. I put forth things to be discussed. I'm running short on parts currently, hence, I couldn't provide any proof.
Janstarblast, experimenting is the key over here. If you keep on repeating what has been said before, then dude, things change over time.

I'll look into Revizer Dragooon B:D against some attack combos with Flash, Diablo, ect. soon. I can understand not being able to move Revizer Dragooon itself, but on B:D? Seems off to me.