Guys, can we not get into arguments about who happened to be the first to put two pre-made parts together and say 'yeah this is good'. We've had trouble with that kinda thing in the past - no one 'owns' combos, they just are.
Well, let me rephrase that...
Meow! was the first to test GF spin equalizers... Not BD145GF. IIRC he used D125 (although he did make a video using BD145GF in his YouTube channel), but it's completely irrelevant.
My point was, he knows a lot about it and his input would be nice.
Yes it would be. I think its top tier but I will be willing to wait three months. @th!nk, I agree.
I really hate to nag anybody, because I know you guys are really busy with Limited over there in the advanced forum, but, as plenty of discussion has passed and we down here have pretty much reached agreement, would it be too much trouble to push for an update to the tier list?
Here's my personal proposal. It's extremely similar to the one already in the advanced forum, so it should be really easy and quick to read through:
TheBlackDragon Wrote:ATTACK
Wyvang
- {MSF{-H}} Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)
- {MSF{-H}} Wyvang Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] (R2F/RF/LRF)
Balro
- {MSF{-H}} Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)
Bahamdia
- {MSF-M} Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (LRF/R2F)
Flash
- MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)
- MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) W145 MF
DEFENSE
Duo
- MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)
- MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) E230 (RDF/RSF/RB/CS)
Revizer/Killerken
- MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
- MSF-H Revizer (Reviser/Killerken) E230 (RDF/RSF/CS/RB)
Genbull
- MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (RDF/RB/RSF)
- MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RB/RSF)
STAMINA
Duo
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/TB)
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SR200 TB
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160 PD
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165[Normal] EWD
Genbull
- Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
- Genbull Genbull TH170 TB
Phantom
- Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
- Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD/TB)
- Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) SR200 TB
Dragooon
- MSF{-H} (Reviser/Genbull/Killerken/Girago) Dragooon SA165[Normal] EWD
- MSF-L Girago Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD
BALANCE
- MF(-M/-H) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 MB
- (Girago/Genbull) Genbull E230 MB
- MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF
- MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85 MF
- MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF
- {MF{-L}} (Duo/Death) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230* (CF/GCF)
- {MSF{-L}} (Genbull/Girago/Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon F230* (CF/GCF)
- {MSF{-L}} Genbull Genbull F230* (CF/GCF)
- MF-H Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorn II) BD145 RF
- MSF-(H/L) Girago Girago BD145 RF
- MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RF
- MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145 RDF
- MSF-H (Reviser/Killerken) Dragooon SA165[Normal] RDF
- Genbull Dragooon T125 GCF
* F230 must be one of the orange ones from ZGRBV3, not the brown or red ones.
Well, there you have it! Now, for the things I changed:
- Removed MF-H and RF from MSF(-M/-H) Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (LRF/R2F/RF) and made MF-M optional
Trust me, coming from the person who designed it, MSF-H and RF make this thing waaaaaaaaaay too slow to do its job. Push-attackers need to be fast, and MSF-H/RF both kill this custom's speed. MF-M helps reduce recoil slightly without reducing speed, but the difference isn't nearly enough to call it a vastly superior option to a normal face.
- Added MSF-L as an option with Girago BD145RF
Back when I tested this, I didn't like MSF-H because it killed too much Stamina and slowed the custom down a little much for my taste. Granted, it still works amazing, but IMO MSF-L is at least as good, if not better, so I think we should definitely include it.
- Removed MSF-H from Girago Dragooon SA165[Zero-G Attack] EWD
Just doesn't work very well. I really didn't like MSF-H on this custom when I tested it. It just seemed to hurt its late-game stability and decrease its Precession too much. It wouldn't kill me to keep it, but IMO MSF-L works worlds better.
- Added Unicorn II as an option with Diablo Anti-Attack
Heavy, 3-sided, and reeeeeeeeeeeeally cool looking.
- Replaced M(S)F-M with M(S)F-L on all F230 customs, and made M(S)F-L optional.
I've never liked MF-M on anything besides select Attack types. Contrary to popular opinion, it does not help a custom's Precession. It actually hurts it. If you want to hear my reasoning,
give this thread a read. MF-H is OK, but I think most people agree that it simply isn't necessary to kill that much Stamina for such a slight reduction of recoil over MF-L. MF-L doesn't,t hurt Precession much if at all, doesn't hurt Stamina, and yet reduces recoil nicely. IMO it's the best option for these customs if one wants a Metal Face of some kind on them.
- Removed Genbull as an option for the bottom Chrome Wheel in E230 Defense customs
Far too much recoil. Genbull's underside is just... Ugh. Revizer is a clearly better choice in just about every way IMO.
So, that's it.
Whaddaya think guys?
what about gunbull(reviser/genbull/killerken) sa165 bwd/wd/ewd/w2d for stamina I thought it was on par with duo for stamina
On the F230 customs, is there any precedent justifying M(S)F-L (as that weight is still very centered), and also what was the origin of the MSF-M on synchrome ones? I would like to see if it serves some purpose with regards to their balance or whether it was chosen for any other reason before removing it.
Links to any available testing on the other stuff would help me personally decide faster as I'd need to know whether there is evidence to base this on or not (as if I could make changes freely, Pegasis II (maybe just SonoKong) would be on all the relevant tall track stamina customs, haha). Face stuff is pretty minor but as I cannot test most of this stuff myself right now I cannot really say much without evidence to go by.
Not sure at what point UniII went missing from Diablo as IIRC I was the one who put it on there, but I agree with that being re-added. I'd still stick to kerbecs for the small amount of extra weight and what I think is a better weight distribution, but Unicorno II is still the second heaviest clear wheel and as you said, it looks great.
Genbull works better on top, anything else creates a higher center of gravity.
I have no objections to it otherwise.
@th!nk: MSF-M was put on the F230 customs because Kei liked it IIRC. I don't remember why he put it there. I'd have to ask him.
MF-M/H usually hurts a custom's stall time, while MF-L usually doesn't. MF-L just gives it recoil reduction without the loss of pure Stamina (and, in most cases, Precession) that you get with MF-H/M.
There are some spin steal customs that can actually benefit from an MSF-L as far as Precession goes. The effect is extremely rare, mainly limited to SA165 [Zero-G Attack] EWD customs, but in any case it doesn't hurt it nearly as much as MSF-M.
To put it plainly, M(S)F-L has a noticeably better track record on stallers and spin-equalizers than either of the other two variants, and F230 customs are both stallers and spin-equalizers. Yes, M(S)F-M/H could be viable, but there's really no reason to use them over M(S)F-L.
oops I put it in the wrong order I meant for genbul to be on top
I'm going to need to sit down with a Metal Face Custom guide in front of me to keep track of all the M(S)F-C changes you proposed, haha! I very much know what M(S)F-L and M(S)F-M are, but seeing them all used back to back makes it hard to keep them straight x)
Wut, when did Unicorno II get removed from Diablo, lol? It should definitely be up there, that's odd O.o
Regarding Genbull not being on the bottom of a Synchrom, I've never been keen on using Genbull for defense at all to be totally honest. While its recoil is far from bad (which is why I like using Genbull Genbull for stamina, since it's relatively safe to use due to its weight and low-ish recoil), it has significantly more recoil than the other resident defense chrome wheels, and I've never known Genbull to offer much to a defense Synchrom to make the trade-off of more recoil worth it.
For the record I agree with putting Pegasis II up for stamina (heck, even defense, since the TT ones are 3.25g or something like that). Like I've said to a few people, it really is one of the most underrated clear wheels in the meta IMO. I have one from a Bronze Galaxy Pegasis that I've used on sooooo many customs and I've always been impressed with its performance.
I absolutely love Genbull for Defense. MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RDF is like the best mid-height defender ever!
It's super solid for me. Usually hits 10-20% higher than Revizer against Flash/Wyvang, and out-spins Revizer/Killerken Defense types as well for the most part.
However, BD145 doesn't leave its underside exposed. Genbull Genbull on E230 is asking for trouble. Revizer Genbull is far better on E230 (and probably the best setup, now that I think about it).
There's one thing I forgot to mention! I added Girago, Killerken and Revizer as options for the bottom Chrome wheel on Dragooon F230. Not exactly sure why they weren't there in the first place (if someone knows, an explanation would be really cool).
I wish I could do consistent enough solo spins to make my results consistent enough to provide good averages, but my SonoKong Pegasis II is consistently around the same area as Cancer and Cygnus. It has problems with its topside being too aggressive but on tall tracks it's great. Personally I think it is a case where a part's performance is pretty clear from looking at it - the weight slopes up from the centre right to the very edge of the wheel, unlike most which stop short and are rounded off, placing most of the weight slightly further inward, which does matter a lot on particularly wide-distributed wheels like Metal Fury Scythe or Phantom. Defensively, a little extra stamina always helps, but again I'd leave it to 230 only, seeing as Duo is relatively light by modern standards (I think I just heard my launchers collectively shudder as I typed those last seven words...)
(Jan. 24, 2014 6:54 PM)Ingulit Wrote: [ -> ]I'm going to need to sit down with a Metal Face Custom guide in front of me to keep track of all the M(S)F-C changes you proposed, haha! I very much know what M(S)F-L and M(S)F-M are, but seeing them all used back to back makes it hard to keep them straight x)
Wut, when did Unicorno II get removed from Diablo, lol? It should definitely be up there, that's odd O.o
Regarding Genbull not being on the bottom of a Synchrom, I've never been keen on using Genbull for defense at all to be totally honest. While its recoil is far from bad (which is why I like using Genbull Genbull for stamina, since it's relatively safe to use due to its weight and low-ish recoil), it has significantly more recoil than the other resident defense chrome wheels, and I've never known Genbull to offer much to a defense Synchrom to make the trade-off of more recoil worth it.
For the record I agree with putting Pegasis II up for stamina (heck, even defense, since the TT ones are 3.25g or something like that). Like I've said to a few people, it really is one of the most underrated clear wheels in the meta IMO. I have one from a Bronze Galaxy Pegasis that I've used on sooooo many customs and I've always been impressed with its performance.
I think think striker should go on the list for Diablo, are there any tests for Pegasus II, and idk about genbull.
*MSF-H and RF removed from MSF-H Bahandia Dragooon BD145RF/R2F/LRF
I could be wrong, but wouldn't a push attacker require sturdy hits? Which can achieve more effectively with RF. And would the same be said about Bahamdia Ifraid SA165RF/R2F/LRF?
*MSF-M replaced with MSF-L on F230 customs.
I think MSF-M should optional on F230 customs, because it gives some stability to the custom.
- I agree
- MSF-M isn't so great, it takes away stamina but doesn't add defence
- OK
- OK that's fine.
(Jan. 24, 2014 11:23 PM)"Kira Wrote: [ -> ]*MSF-H and RF removed from MSF-H Bahandia Dragooon BD145RF/R2F/LRF
I could be wrong, but wouldn't a push attacker require sturdy hits? Which can achieve more effectively with RF. And would the same be said about Bahamdia Ifraid SA165RF/R2F/LRF?
It doesn't matter how sturdy a hit is from an opposite-spin attacker if it isn't fast enough to Land a KO.
Wouldn't the enormous surface area of the metal wheel make up for a slight loss of speed?
(Jan. 25, 2014 12:19 AM)"Kira Wrote: [ -> ]Wouldn't the enormous surface area of the metal wheel make up for a slight loss of speed ?
Ive tried it. It sucks with RF.
I figured I'd do some tests to possibly back up what you said TheBlackDragon. Personally I wouldn't take RF off for Bahamdia Dragooon. The speed really does play a factor, but RF still gives it plenty to push out the opponent.
Bahamdia Dragooon BD145R2F vs. Reviser Killerken BD145CS
BD: 14 wins (All KO)
RK: 6 wins (All OS)
Bahamdia Dragooon R2F win rate: 70%
Bahamdia Dragooon BD145RF vs. Reviser Killerken BD145CS
BD: 15 wins (All KO)
RK: 5 wins (All OS)
Bahamdia Dragooon RF win rate: 75%
Based on these tests, don't take it the wrong way and think RF is better (I actually usually get higher with R2F LOL). I was just trying to prove that it performs just as well.
Er... Those aren't the numbers I got. I would personally leave it off.
Anyone against adding SA165 to Flash? While it does jut out a little, it has that insane weight distro, extra weight, and all the tracks we have listed mean E230 will wreck you (at least E230RDF vs GB145LRF (worn LRF), all you get is track), and Flash isn't really heavily negatively affected by it. 160-170 is IMO the best height range for most attack combos to use against 230 (generally 145 heights will still sometimes pass under the opponent without making contact), and with E230 around that's even more important because 145-heights are going to run into its disk a lot.
It's also really good against Killerken-up BD145, because Killerken is kinda recoil prone (I mean in Limited it's best used for attack soooo) and that lets Flash hit it instead of Reviser. Reviser-Up BD145 isn't quite as easy and Duo BD145 becomes a bit harder but in terms of how I'm seeing it doing overall, it's probably the track I'd use on Flash (and so far I haven't liked any of the Synchromed attack types, so that'd probably be my main attack bey). Also if someone with a synchrome is silly enough to raise BD145's disk they're going to be in for FUN TIMES because SA165 gets under it at that height, so it continually pushes the opponent off balance.
I'd do some tests but a) I was kinda hoping someone had already and b) I really don't want to wear my parts and launchers as much as doing so would require with a tournament being in the works (just playing with stuff this heavy makes me a little uneasy tbh), so basically I figured I may as well throw it out here, see if there was already support and it had just been forgotten or see why it isn't up there etc etc because SA165 is an absolutely awesome track for attack and 165 is a really good height for attack in the height ranges used for Standard. It's also surprisingly not-bad against low tracks in limited either tho idk if that would translate to standard.
FWIW I didn't see a huge difference in Bahamdia Dragooon's performance with RF/R2F (I dislike correct-directional rubber flats so I didn't use LRF) and the face didn't seem to make a big difference. However this was probably more because I couldn't get it or Wyvang Dragooon to do anything worth a darn to MSF-H Revizer Killerken BD145RDF (and had a lot of trouble keeping them in the stadium - more weight, more momentum, harder for the ridge to catch you, harder to turn = more self-KO's, I guess). I would hold off removing them and just list them as options, leaving a note in the thread you made for it about your findings, as other people seem to not be too fussed by any potential differences.
Oh and also, strongly suggesting re-adding LRF to right spin attack and R2F to left spin attack - the difference between them and a plain RF is negligible, but they seem to retain aggression better with wear, which IMO is a big plus even for tournament use given the weights that we're putting on top of them nowadays.
Lastly, for Flash, are Beelzeb and Ionis really better than the trio of "good" CW's that didn't make the cut the first time round (Horogium, Uranus, and to a lesser extent Sagittario (not sure if it's any better than Kronos looking at it, which also juts out a bit too early)? They both look a bit large, to me, but then it's hard to tell from pictures.
Why isn't Ketos up there with the flash attack combos?
I'm guessing not a-lot of testing. Though, I'm not sure it's one of "the best" CW choice.
Orion > Ketos for Flash; Ketos sticks out juuust a bit, whereas Orion fits almost perfectly with Flash's bow, so Orion outclasses pretty much completely.
Speaking of which, has anyone tested Gemios on Flash yet? I keep meaning to but I'm bad with Attack types and also just plain lazy. It's roughly the same size and shape as Escolpio so it might work.