Oct. 02, 2013 10:02 PM
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Oct. 02, 2013 10:02 PM
(Oct. 02, 2013 10:02 PM)PhantomOrion22 Wrote: [ -> ]A good combo in my opinion is Phantom (attack) herculeo 85 CF
is that a staller?
Oct. 02, 2013 10:05 PM
This thread is to talk about competitive customizations, not what you personally think is good. You would need tests to support your claims.
It's pretty obvious that Phantom 85MF is much better. It's top tier.
It's pretty obvious that Phantom 85MF is much better. It's top tier.
Oct. 03, 2013 1:32 AM
Wow! Where did all this D>SD come from all of a sudden?? I thought testing has always consistently shown that SD>D for pure stamina.
Huh... anyone got any testing? I'm really curious now.
Huh... anyone got any testing? I'm really curious now.
Oct. 03, 2013 1:50 AM
Maybe the old WD>SD>D>WD triangle needs to be retested...? At the very least, to stop any false speculation or misconceptions from arising with all the varying opinions getting thrown about.
Oct. 03, 2013 3:23 AM
(Oct. 03, 2013 1:32 AM)theblackdragon Wrote: [ -> ]Wow! Where did all this D>SD come from all of a sudden?? I thought testing has always consistently shown that SD>D for pure stamina.
Huh... anyone got any testing? I'm really curious now.
Lol sorry, I brought it up. I'm saying D>SD for tall tracks like TH170 and 230.
on 145 heights and below, SD will OS D, but WD is better than both. I usually put EWD and BWD on the same level as WD, although EWDs can be inconsistent and are usually used on Spin-Equalizers rather than generic Stamina types.
Oct. 03, 2013 7:09 AM
I think just in case we would be needing more testing on D and SD on taller tracks on combos such as Phantom Cancer/Cygnus 230 D/SD.
Oct. 03, 2013 7:22 PM
I always though that SD>D on taller tracks... D always beats WD on anything when I try it, and SD beats D (and literally everything else I have XD).
I just searched for an SD discussion and nothing came up... I know the tests are here somewhere; I've seen them before, but I can't find them now.
I just searched for an SD discussion and nothing came up... I know the tests are here somewhere; I've seen them before, but I can't find them now.
Oct. 03, 2013 8:37 PM
IIRC (and from my own experience) SD is the best overall tip out of the D series. Not that it outclasses any of the others, but that it does better in general. It does well on all heights, but is beaten by the best tip for that height; for instance, on 160/165 (tall-ish tracks) PD beats out SD, on 200-230 D beats SD, and on lower tracks WD beats SD. However, if, for some reason, you didn't have any other D-series tips, SD is a very versatile alternative.
Oct. 04, 2013 2:44 AM
Hey, guys... I just have something that's been on my mind a long time:
After this, I think I've compiled a decent case... Who of you guys would like to See Basalt leave the tier-list? I mean, it's a cool combo, but in the face of Diablo, Duo, and Girago it really doesn't have the attack application that it used to.
Thoughts?
theblackdragon Wrote:Lazer Wrote:Do you think Death could be used for anti-attack? I don't have any tests I could do them though but in the B.O.B I just uploaded Death seemed to be able to OS and KO MF-H Flash Orion W145MF in the combo Death Crown TR145WF (of course I'd change WF to R2F)
Well, yes, theoretically. But, the one of the points of an anti-attacker is to be able to do things that regular defenders can't, like KO.
The reason the smooth Basalt is used as an anti-attacker IIRC is because in it's time it could KO nearly the entire stamina metagame due to its "spiral staircase of death" (offsetting the center of gravity, producing a vibrating effect that produces smash/grinding effect).
However, when Basalt Horogium R145/TR145RF/R2F was popularized, the stamina metagame was made up almost entirely of Scythe and Phantom customs, which, having the highest smash of any defensive Metal Wheel of its time, it could KO with ease. Death, however, has less smash and weight than basalt, and on top of that, today's stamina metagame is completely dominated by Duo, which neither can KO consistently (I say consistently because Basalt can, with an amazing launch, KO Duo at times).
An anti-attacker is classified as balance. Something similar to an anti-attacker, but with a low-smash defensive wheel using a rubber flat tip rather than a conventional defensive bottom would just be a form of defense, since it's not built to beat other things as well.
As I stated above, Basalt R145/TR145RF/R2F cannot KO even the defensively weakest Duo customs used today with any considerable consistency, and as such, I would actually very much like to see it removed, as Diablo and Girago can beat the heck out of Duo stamina combos while still retaining a greater degree of defensive ability.
That's why Diablo BD145R2F is such a good pick against an attack type in a tournament situation, because it will knock Duo into next week, OS Reviser, and still beat the stuff normal defenders can.
So, in a nutshell, Death can't KO, so there's really no reason to categorize it or Basalt as anti-attack Metal Wheels IMO. You'd just be creating a defense type using RF instead of RDF/RB/RSF/CS.
th!nk in some year-old thread in the advanced forum Wrote:The latter part is the key difference from RF Defense - RF defenders lack the ability to handle stamina with decent reliability. The reason for this difference is basically because as a result of this things like Duo BD145RF and Diablo BD145RF have very different applications, Duo being solely defensive (and better at that) to the exclusion of notable attack ability and very poor stamina, whilst Diablo sacrifices some of that defense to be less overspecialized [...Less focused towards defense...], making it a balance type.
See? Sorry if that was overcomplicated. XD
After this, I think I've compiled a decent case... Who of you guys would like to See Basalt leave the tier-list? I mean, it's a cool combo, but in the face of Diablo, Duo, and Girago it really doesn't have the attack application that it used to.
Thoughts?
Oct. 04, 2013 2:48 AM
I agree its old and getting out classed. Basalt can still be used for a good bey but there are way to many better weels for what it does now
Oct. 04, 2013 3:04 AM
Speaking of Death, I've seen a few people use it at tournaments after copying me, but I love
MF-M Death (attack) Escolpio SA165 (Defense) RF for anti-attack
MF-M Death (attack) Escolpio SA165 (Defense) RF for anti-attack
Oct. 04, 2013 3:07 AM
Oct. 04, 2013 3:23 AM
Wait Basalt is still on the list? LMAO take it off, please.
Oct. 04, 2013 3:58 AM
(Oct. 04, 2013 3:23 AM)ShinobuXD Wrote: [ -> ]Wait Basalt is still on the list? LMAO take it off, please.
It was on the list for Basalt TR145 R2F. But I never liked that combo in general. I took it off my list in the advanced forum.
Here is my list from the advanced forum. Thoughts? Everyone okay with this lsit?
Spoiler (Click to View)
Attack
Wyvang
1. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)
2. Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Zero-G attack mode) (R2F/RF/LRF)
Balro
1. Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)
Flash
1. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)
2. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) W145MF
Defense
Duo
1. MF-H Duo (Bull/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)
Reviser/Killerken
1. MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Revizer/Killerken BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
2. MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)
Genbull
1. MSF-H Genbull/Revizer Genbull BD145/E230 (RDF/RB/RSF)
Stamina
Duo
1. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)
4. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SR200TB
5. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160PD
6. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165 EWD/BWD
Genbull
1. Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
2. Genbull Genbull TH170TB
Phantom
1. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)
Dragooon
1. (MSF-H) Reviser/Genbull/Killerken Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) EWD/BWD
Balance
1. MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF
2. MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF
3. (MF-H/MF-M) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus) 230MB
4. MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF
5. MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF
6. Reviser Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) RDF
7. MF-M Duo/Death Cancer/Cygnus F230(Orange) CF/GCF
8. MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230(Orange) CF/GCF
9. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF
10. Girago Girago BD145 RF
Wyvang
1. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)
2. Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Zero-G attack mode) (R2F/RF/LRF)
Balro
1. Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)
Flash
1. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)
2. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) W145MF
Defense
Duo
1. MF-H Duo (Bull/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)
Reviser/Killerken
1. MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Revizer/Killerken BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
2. MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)
Genbull
1. MSF-H Genbull/Revizer Genbull BD145/E230 (RDF/RB/RSF)
Stamina
Duo
1. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)
4. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SR200TB
5. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) 160PD
6. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SA165 EWD/BWD
Genbull
1. Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
2. Genbull Genbull TH170TB
Phantom
1. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)
Dragooon
1. (MSF-H) Reviser/Genbull/Killerken Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) EWD/BWD
Balance
1. MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF
2. MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF
3. (MF-H/MF-M) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus) 230MB
4. MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF
5. MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF
6. Reviser Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) RDF
7. MF-M Duo/Death Cancer/Cygnus F230(Orange) CF/GCF
8. MSF-M Genbull Dragooon F230(Orange) CF/GCF
9. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145 RSF
10. Girago Girago BD145 RF
Oct. 04, 2013 4:17 AM
@ Duo Defense Where is CS?
Oct. 04, 2013 4:22 AM
It can't be stamina alone for F230CF/GCF because it still attacking but at the end it stamina that's why it balance.
Whoa whoa no Dragoon B? <redacted>.... I still won in BR with it. It still deserve it place.
Whoa whoa no Dragoon B? <redacted>.... I still won in BR with it. It still deserve it place.
Oct. 04, 2013 4:26 AM
I agree with B, it should be on the list. It has more Defense than EWD/WD/BWD.
Oct. 04, 2013 4:32 AM
EDIT: As for B, why? What does it do well besides having decent precession/LAD? SA165 EWD completely outclasses it.
Oct. 04, 2013 4:42 AM
Added
Girago Girago BD145 RF to Balance
Took away
CS on Genbull
Dragooon BD is good. But its not top tier. Its more of a niche' combo that works in certain situations. Dragooon SA165 EWD is better.
Girago Girago BD145 RF to Balance
Took away
CS on Genbull
Dragooon BD is good. But its not top tier. Its more of a niche' combo that works in certain situations. Dragooon SA165 EWD is better.
Oct. 04, 2013 4:53 AM
As for Balro not KOing, I can test that out tomorrow for you, tell you how it goes. Plus, if it can't KO, it can OS, unlike Flash.
Oct. 04, 2013 4:55 AM
Flash can OS RDF/RB/RS and KO CS.
Edit: Which Balro combo are you referring to?
Edit: Which Balro combo are you referring to?
Oct. 04, 2013 4:58 AM
Balro W145WSF. In my experience, Flash W145MF doesn't OS Defense, or KO it, while Balro W145WSF does.
Oct. 04, 2013 5:14 AM
That's not cool bro.
What i'm trying to point out is what if someone don't have access to SA165 and EWD? But there best option is BD
I will do some testing on Monday on Dragoon BD vs F230CF/GCF
What i'm trying to point out is what if someone don't have access to SA165 and EWD? But there best option is BD
I will do some testing on Monday on Dragoon BD vs F230CF/GCF
Oct. 04, 2013 11:18 AM
Anywho, I thought it was OK, but, again, this is what I would like to see:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Quote:Attack
Wyvang
1. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang (GB145/W145/H145) (R2F/RF)
2. Wyvang Dragooon SA165 (Zero-G attack mode) (R2F/RF/LRF)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Balro
1. Balro Balro (CH120/D125/T125/W145) (RF/R2F)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Although Balro has not been formally tested with these exact tracks, it's put up great results with the same heights in this thread. W145 is obviously the superior substitute for CH145 if you don't want the height-change function. I found GB145 and MSF-H to slow this down a bit much for my taste...
Flash
1. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) (GB145/H145/S130/CH120) (R2F/RF)
2. MF-H Flash (Orion/Escolpio/Pisces/Beelzebub/Ionis) W145MF
Spoiler (Click to View)
Although its weight can be a bit of a problem in some scenarios, flash does have relatively low recoil, and its speed and controllability can be advantageous. It's smash is very viable as well, hitting up to 60-70% against Revizer, as well as pulling higher numbers than any Synchrom attacker against the ever popular Duo defenders. I mean, come on, it's flash...
Defense
Duo
1. MF-H Duo (Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Duo is just amazing... it's got more stamina than any other defensive wheel out there, and yet it can still pull some of the highest numbers against the new Synchrom attacker.
Reviser/Killerken
1. MSF-H Revizer/Killerken Revizer/Killerken BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
2. MSF-H Revizer Reviser/Killerken E230 (RDF/RSF/RS/CS/RB)
Spoiler (Click to View)
Both of the Chrome Wheels have put up and still put up amazing results against traditional attackers in the past, and nothing seems to have topped them yet, so...
Genbull
1. MSF-H Genbull/Revizer Genbull BD145 (RDF/RB)
Spoiler (Click to View)
No one seemed to pay much attention to it, but when Genbull was first tested for defense, it put up numbers 50% higher than Reviser against Flash. From testing Both Formal and informal, I have found it to be absolutely amazing on BD145. Although it doesn't seem to perform well on CS or E230, it can be an amazing mid-height defender. Check out some formal results here and here.
Scythe
1. MF-H Scythe ______ 85RS
Spoiler (Click to View)
Stamina
Duo
1. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) 230 (D/SD)
3. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) TH170 (D/SD)
4. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) SR200TB
5. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades/Aquario) 160PD
Spoiler (Click to View)It's Duo... it just totally rocks. The only thing that can come close to matching this wheel IMO is Genbull.
Genbull
1. Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
2. Genbull Genbull TH170TB
Spoiler (Click to View)
Phantom
1. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
2. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 (D/SD)
3. Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD)
Spoiler (Click to View)
These combos are continuing to succeed in events as I have heard, and although its recoil can produce a huge issue in certain circumstances, you just can't ignore Phantom's amazing endurance capabilities, putting up far higher solo spin times than any other wheel released so far.
Dragooon
1. (MSF-H) Reviser Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) EWD
Spoiler (Click to View)
This thing rocks... it takes down pretty much anything using right rotation (save most attackers). It's Precession and LAD are incredible. Check it out here.
Balance
1. MF-L Phantom Cygnus 85MF
Spoiler (Click to View)
This combo continues to succeed against so many combos I can't keep count. Just the pure spin time alone is enough to impress me...
2. MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF
Spoiler (Click to View)
This combo is still a great counter to most attack types, and it can still produce very, very viable results against stamina types as well. I see no reason to leave it off of the list.
3. (MF-H/MF-M) Duo (Cancer/Cygnus) 230MB
Spoiler (Click to View)
This combo is still dominant in specific areas, and continues to put up stunning results against most of the new combos we have been testing. This one's definitely a keeper.
4. MSF Gryph Gryph E230BSF
Spoiler (Click to View)This combo is pretty decent. Not one of my favorites, but you really can't ignore the results it's been able to put up. This thing can pretty much force smash the polycarbonate out of anything below 160. Tests are here.
5. MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF
Spoiler (Click to View)
This thing is absolutely beast in every way, shape, and form... this is one of my favorite combos of all time. Check it out here.
6. MSF-L Girago Girago BD145RF
Spoiler (Click to View)
I've tried this a LOT against just about everything, and so far, it's completely stomped anything remotely related to attack. Check it out here.
7. Reviser Dragooon SA165 (normal mode) RDF
Spoiler (Click to View)
I like this combo... it's a nice variation of spin equalizer, with the added defense to back it up against right-spin attackers. Check out the results here.
8. Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF
Spoiler (Click to View)
This combo has put up some viable numbers as a balance type, and seems to be a popular combo among the users I've discussed it with... so, up it goes! Check out the testing here.
9. (MF-H/L/M) Duo (Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) F230CF/GCF
Spoiler (Click to View)This thing is probably the most effective right-rotating spin-equalizer we have so far. On the side of being able to counter literally the entire left-spin metagame, its ability to OS defense and, in some cases, stamina types, make it a devastating tool in the hands of a good blader.
10. (MSF-H) Genbull/Reviser/Girago/Killerken/Wyvang Dragooon F230CF/GCF
Spoiler (Click to View)This combo is extremely effective against just about everything competitive. There are very, very few effective counters for this combo, and its ability to pull off win after win against just about every variation of competitive combo used today makes it a formidable opponent. This definitely belongs on the list.
11. Genbull Dragooon T125GCF
Spoiler (Click to View)Overall, I think this is a great multi-tasking combination. The only thing it will really lose to is 145 height stamina combos from my experience, and any stamina combo TH170 + is gonna get mauled. It's got great LAD, not much less than SA165EWD at all, and it's ability to counter attack types and RDF defense types makes it an especially desirable spin equalizer over things that have low defense and can't tornado stall long (IE. Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD). Testing here.
I wrote this a while ago and it landed in the advanced forum, so whatever they do to it I'm pretty much good. The only thing is I didn't have Dragooon F230CF and/or Duo SA165EWD on here, because, at the time, there were no formal test results for either. :\ I've added them and Duo F230CF (doesn't have any formal results either, but what the heck right? ).
I also added Genbull Dragooon T125GCF, which I think is a very, very effective custom. I really like it and it really beats just about everything. Thoughts? I can't respond for 3 days, but whatever.
But yah, what's in the advanced forum right now is pretty much exactly what I'd like to see go up, so no complaints.