Okay, sorry for the delay but I wanted to wait til I had time to go through this with my beys and stadium in front of me. TheBlackDragon replied to most if not all of it here:
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MFB-Stan...pid1198901
That would be worth reading, might reply to some of it when I get time but this post might already do that anyway.
(Mar. 02, 2014 12:03 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ] (Feb. 11, 2014 5:13 AM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]The one thing I want to hear from someone here on is the removal of MSF-M from the Synchrom F230 combos - that's based on the tests and theorywork TBD did with MF-M and how it sucked (he linked it in his explanation, the core of it is that MF-M sucks for spinstealers), but I just wanted to check with Kei (as apparently it was him who started its usage) about whether there was some other reason to use it there than MSF-L doesn't fulfill?
TheWhiteTiger posted this in TheBlackDragon's thread, which kind of explains my stance:
TheWhiteTiger Wrote:Yes, but F230 combos are more balance really than Stamina. Plus you said it yourself, M variants are used on 230 combos to keep them from toppling over and having a good spin velocity at low RPM's, not necessarily because it aids them in Spin-Stealing.
On F230CF/GCF combos, my idea was that increased spin velocity would be desirable because it isn't the precession of that type of combo that I'm worried about given what it can do once it has fallen over; I'm more concerned with keeping it upright as long as possible before it has to rely on that to win. The longer you can delay that, the better, I think. That's also why I use GCF over CF; the flat area of the bottom of GCF is larger than that of CF (like WF vs. XF, or whatever), which means it has the ability to stay upright longer. F230CF/GCF is unique when it comes to "spin stealers", so I don't think it's fair to categorize it in the same way.
But as I've stated in the past, I don't know much of anything about physics, so it's very possible that I'm mistaken too. It's just a theory. I'll defer to you guys if you have a better understanding of why it would/wouldn't work.
Centred weight is probably not helping that, but I'm also not the best with physics - we should collectively compile a list of stuff we need to ask someone with a physics degree at some point, haha.
That said, MF-M didn't seem to help gravity stay upright or steal spin, and if we're looking at rectifying balance, F230 setups topple mainly due to top-heaviness and imbalance - perhaps you'll help the latter with a metal face, in which case MSF or MSF-H seems most logical for maximum weight (and I doubt it's significantly more damaging to spin stealing than MSF-M with the extra weight, if it is then MSF-L is very close weightwise to MSF-M and probably a better choice) - but even then I doubt it's going to have anywhere near as large an effect as using a better balanced chrome wheel (in particular, not using Revizer).
As for how it would affect lategame survival: I think I may have inadvertently started or at least egged on this kinda thing by inappropriately applying how well Roller Defenser+Ten Heavy worked for Circle Survivor Defense - basically, that's an extremely unique case with a lot of other factors at play that are not applicable to most other setups, including F230 - I think I mentioned them in explanations which I'm not sure I actually posted or sent to all but a couple people who I let in on it to see how it did at tournaments, but a lot of it has to do with the engine gear (both being an engine gear - and because of the protective barrier it provides) - this is why the second best setup is almost the exact opposite, the more conventional Spin Stealing AR+Wide Defense. I thiiiiink the fact that the top half is resisting the engine gear kicking in and pushing it the other way might also be a factor in why the centred weight distro is helpful there and not elsewhere, but that is something I don't have a good enough understanding of to discuss and I think given the other things I've mentioned it is probably not that important anyway.
The main thing with F230 as I've seen it is that F230 combos are still stealing spin as the bottom section stops moving, and especially at that point in the battle odds are their opponent will be making contact anyway, so even if that extra weight DID help solo spin, the detrimental effect it has on spin-stealing is more than likely going to harm them more.
Basically, if faces are listed, I'd be inclined to list everything
except MF-M. My understanding of physics isn't the best, but my reasoning is as stated above.
Quote: (Feb. 11, 2014 12:12 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: [ -> ]Bahamdia
- {MSF-M/MSF-L} Bahamdia Dragooon BD145 (LRF/R2F/RF)
No SA165?
It has no testing, but I just tried it and am quite confident it deserves to be up here. MSF-L Bahamdia Dragooon SA165RF (Zero G Attack Mode) outspins right spin pseudo-boost-mode E230RB/RS/RSF (MSF-H Genbull Genbull E230RDF outspun it, haven't tried CS, non-Genbull Genbull E230 RDF setups or non-pseudo-boost-mode-setups). Really nice as they're not always easy to KO and BD145 doesn't do this. Power loss vs MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RDF doesn't seem very significant either, and while Bahamdia's underside doesn't do much offensively, I doubt the move to SA165 from BD145 is hurting its ability against lowish stuff too severely. I'd be willing to put it up from a personal standpoint, but from a professional standpoint I'm not sure it's right to do so without testing, much like SA165 on Flash (which lets it hit E230 combos properly, which 145 height tracks don't do, and again not a big sacrifice vs lower stuff, though perhaps more than this combo.)
Quote: (Feb. 11, 2014 12:12 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: [ -> ]- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD/TB)
- Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) SR200 TB
Genbull
- Genbull Genbull SR200 (TB/CS)
- Genbull Genbull TH170 TB
I still don't understand the affinity people have for TB Stamina combos outside of their use against F230CF/GCF combos in Zero-G, but maybe that's just me. Using something like Duo TH170/SR200TB seems insane to me given the weakness it has to left-spin combos which are everywhere in the metagame. It seems like so many of the new combos that are posted can never deal with left-spin combos, which is a bigger problem for me than it seems to be for other people who are advocating to have them added to this list.
Probably is the left spin thing for you, but then I'm a fan of alternative stamina tips in general and honestly even I'm kinda on the fence about TB given the fact it skips the tornado ridge so easily, so I'm unconvinced about it being on Duo, but then I don't have an SR200. That said, I could see it being more useful than a D-series tip on Genbull, though personally I'd expect CS to be flat out better.
My own question here though: Re: Genbull Genbull, why no CS on TH170? 195 and 200 are basically the same height and TH170CS works well on similar kinda things in Limited (MF-H Libra TH170CS), and the height adaptibility and CS's versatility surely would work together quite nicely, no? I gave it a quick try and it seems effective at OSing Duo Cancer SA165EWD by beating the life out of it, so the only thing I can think of would be that it doesn't OS the defense customs that have better stamina (maybe Genbull Genbull BD145CS/RSF but I've always found TB worse in that sort of matchup than CS), which I can't really try for myself, though even there I wouldn't expect TB to do much better.
To anyone replying that TH170CS doesn't work, pre-emptive question: how does TH170 in 220 mode compare to 230 for you in general (esp. stamina-wise 1v1).
Traditionally, such setups have also worked best with MSF-H because of how they work - they are aiming to hit from above and wear down opponents, and it puts more weight above the wheel, which helps with the up-and-backwards recoil. As for vs Defense stuff, I've not tried it as I think the main thing would be Genbull Genbull BD145RSF/CS or something, but based on past history they also rely on knocking you over so I don't think MF-H would hurt that much given Genbull's underside aggression, might even be useful in helping wear them down. I would suggest this would be a good addition based on history/logic - but there's another aspect to deal with re: msf-h on stamina here. MSF-M might also work but I would just go the whole way tbh.
As for Genbull Genbull CS/TB deserving its place, I definitely think so, as it handles a significant number of things well and seems versatile enough (at least with TH170CS) that it'd be a decent choice for facing random opponents who are using non-traditional customs/filler combos. Coverage is similar to F230CF/GCF spin steal, but it loses to at least F230CF/GCF Spin Steal (MF-H Genbull Genbull TH195CS has no problem KOing Killerken Dragooon SA165EWD even after weak launching the latter (which ruins TB's day)), but beats Duo SA165EWD, and two genbulls are probably easier to get than an Orange Takara F230, for what that's worth.
Two other concerns:
1. Genbull Genbull belongs under balance (it's less conventional stamina than Duo 230MB, which is still in balance for whatever reason despite TB being in stamina) - this is also why I suggested MSF-H on a "stamina" custom, it's not really stamina.
2. Not sure I can see TB outperforming CS, not sure given the nature of the combo SR200 is worth using either but then I don't own one, but yeah idk I kinda feel like maybe MSF-H Genbull Genbull TH170CS would do it all better. Might be being too hard on TB seeing as it doesn't seem that effective in Limited but yeah.
Would suggest moving it to stamina as {MSF{-H}} Genbull Genbull (TH170/SR200) (CS/TB), and moving MF-M Duo ____ 230MB to Stamina.
And yeah no comment on the Duo TB stuff, but if Duo 230MB is still competitive I don't see a real reason to oppose TB being there on it.
Quote: (Feb. 11, 2014 12:12 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: [ -> ]Phantom
- Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
- Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) TH170 (D/SD/TB)
- Phantom (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) SR200 TB
Having Phantom on the list seems like a joke to me at this point, especially on TH170 and SR200. The weight is one problem, which it shares with Duo, but what it has that Duo doesn't is high recoil. I can't overlook this anymore, personally. It does indeed have great Stamina, but you should all remember that it's OK for there to be "good combos" that aren't on this list. I think it's time for it to go if we want this list to be representative of the most competitive combos available in the current metagame. If we're being realistic about where the game is at right now, the only two answers to the question of "What is viable for Stamina?" are Duo and Dragooon variants. Phantom can still be effective, and so can some right-spin Synchrom Stamina combos, but Duo and Dragooon are both pretty clearly at the top right now.
Yeah, now I've played around with Genbull Genbull and Dragooon F230GCF and watched phantom lose to both of them, I think Phantom should go. You might outspin uhhhh Duo and inferior Phantom Customs I guess without getting knocked out but that's really not enough for something so easy to KO. It's weird removing something with such a ridiculous weight distribution from stamina, but Synchroms are just too heavy for Phantom to be competitive.
: every Synchrom BD145 Defense combo on RDF has little trouble KOing Phantom Cancer W145EWD. That includes Revizer Revizer for me, it has a contact point at the side, the sloped edge of a gap, that hits phantom in the mouth - easier if you don't push up your BD145. Killerken and Genbull will both do it easily too, with appropriate banking. Taller Phantom combos can be hit by topside contact points that even Revizer has, I'd wager - might be some specific heights at which it can avoid hits but then there's probably going to be the underside of E230 customs and random non-tier list combos you'll face at tournaments. Most/All of these things have a much harder time KOing Duo, but Phantom's recoil makes it a joke.
Quote: (Feb. 11, 2014 12:12 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: [ -> ]- MSF-H Gryph Gryph E230 BSF
Has anything changed since I posted my original concerns about this one?
Don't think so, though I vaguely remember it seeing a bit of tourney use if that was an issue but IIRC it was mostly the left spin thing, which I think we will probably need to talk about at some length so I think that could wait for the next update, with this combo staying up in the meantime.
That said, I would not be surprised if something with Genbull was found that worked better, given what I've seen from it today.
Quote: (Feb. 11, 2014 12:12 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: [ -> ]- {MF{-L}} (Duo/Death) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230* (CF/GCF)
- {MSF{-L}} (Genbull/Girago/Revizer/Killerken) Dragooon F230* (CF/GCF)
- {MSF{-L}} Genbull Genbull F230* (CF/GCF)
Personally, I still think MSF-M is a good choice. But as I said earlier, I could be wrong.
Hm, I just noticed that we have MF and MSF listed as optional - the former I could see perhaps though I'd probably stick with MF-L, but the latter is pretty much the same weight as MSF-H, so you may as well list that...
I also disagree with Death on F230CF/GCF: Death is outright inferior to Duo because its very marginally better spin steal abilities don't matter when Duo already easily outspins dragooon anyway, and its defense and overall stamina are poorer, so there's even less reason to list it here than on SA165EWD. Perhaps it tornado stalls better (230-height solo spin tests would be the way to check IMO), if that's the case then yeah, but unless that's been done, we shouldn't list it.
I'm not a huge fan of the setup anyway, I have no problem knocking it out with left spin attack so it seems more like a more annoying to use SA165EWD (could even be moved to the stamina section tbh I mean is it really KOing anything?).
Quote: (Feb. 11, 2014 12:12 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: [ -> ]- Removed Genbull as an option for the bottom Chrome Wheel in E230 Defense customs
Far too much recoil. Genbull's underside is just... Ugh. Revizer is a clearly better choice in just about every way IMO.
I've always thought Genbull's angled shape would lend itself well to being placed on a the bottom of customs. Although maybe that would be more useful in the context of Stamina vs. Stamina rather than Defense vs. Attack where the recoil could be more of a problem.
Well, the underside thing is more in the context of Balance/Defense vs Stamina - like Libra and to a lesser extent basalt before it, D series tips don't do enough to prevent you toppling backwards when you hit something from above, and Genbull seems to be in that area w/ regards to recoil - basically, this is what the Genbull Genbull combos you were questioning earlier seem to make use of.
In the case of E230, generally speaking Genbull doesn't make contact with things like Duo SA165BWD, EWD does that, however while for the most part this isn't that important, with CS it has enough stamina to grind Duo down.
Defense-wise: I don't care either way about Genbull with other wheels (didn't get a chance, and I suspect Genbull Genbull is going to be superior anyway because nothing is hitting the top wheel and as I mentioned a lot in this (writing this in the final revision) I really like genbull genbull in general), but Genbull Genbull definitely deserves to remain on E230 - its stamina is nicer than the other defense setups and even against SA165 Attack, E230 still takes a decent share of the hits - it puzzled me initially, but basically because it's thin at the edges, it's less likely to be hit or hit solidly than Revizer (the underside of which is also not super low recoil itself, due to the slopes around its perimeter), so in the end it's really no different, if not even harder to handle by merit of being more stable. I wouldn't mind listing MSF-H Genbull Genbull E230CS in the balance section, but it still takes hits decently enough to remain where it is/was. That said, I haven't done or looked at formal testing on it so it's hard to say, but unless there's formal testing that shows it being more awful than its stamina makes up for I think it should stay up.
Also, as I mentioned in the Gryph Gryph part, I think Genbull might to a good job in similar setups, played around with MSF-H Genbull Genbull E230RB (Normal Mode), and it KO's Duo stamina real nice, but then I didn't get a chance to try it vs attack, nor to give BSF a shot.
Quote: (Feb. 13, 2014 8:37 PM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]As for Diablo, I'm surprised it's still up there with Wyvang and so on around, but Kei covered that here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Competit...pid1162575 so I wouldn't remove it without his word, myself.
The only thing I think it has problems with sometimes are E230 Defenders, but other than that it is still pretty solid!
Aight, fair enough. Haven't had a chance to give it a shot myself, but I am more than willing to take your word on it rather than damaging ripcord/launchers or wearing parts down.
I think we were looking at sorting out some of the stuff you mentioned maybe in the next update but if you're discussing it then may as well take the opportunity I guess, though I would say if there ends up being a significant disagreement on stuff that holds the update up further, that we stick to the status quo on them for this update and address them in the next - I know most of you dislike rushing things and even I'm a bit torn on it, but we have had at least two different versions discussed here since the last update and as much as I don't want to encourage the silly usertitle-demands/wishes or whatever thing that seems to be the latest forum craze, I do think that the fact people are getting impatient is something we should take into account.
But anyway, I agree with most of your points (I think maybe even all of the ones you sounded most certain about), so that is probably a good sign that we're getting close to an update anyway.
Oh and by the way guys why are we using brackets to denote 'choose one of these'? That's what the slashes are there for, did something come up that requires that or whatever????