I'm also kind of wondering - mostly to humor some others without access to this forum - about Wing for Defense. th!nk, you have one, do you not? Arupaeo as well. Could ya'll run the standard ringer for it to see if it stands up to Diablo/Duo/Death and/or at least above Basalt? The more options, the better!
Speaking of Basalt, I was wondering: Should it be taken off any time soon?
I personally get better results in all aspects with Death and I'm certain the same could be said about Duo (and possibly Wing/Diablo.)
If we do find another Metal Wheel which also surpasses Basalt, would there be a point in keeping it up? I mean it was good at some point, yeah, but now it isn't as much..
I will try to fit it in, but I've had trouble motivating myself to do testing lately, and have a lot going on, so I can't guarantee it at all.
The times I have used it, though, as well as the results I've seen in the discussion thread, have all supported it's case for being on the defense section of this list. I would be interested seeing how Lightning or Beat would do against it, given it leaves quite a gap between itself and BD145.
(Feb. 11, 2012 4:30 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Speaking of Basalt, I was wondering: Should it be taken off any time soon?
I personally get better results in all aspects with Death and I'm certain the same could be said about Duo (and possibly Wing/Diablo.)
If we do find another Metal Wheel which also surpasses Basalt, would there be a point in keeping it up? I mean it was good at some point, yeah, but now it isn't as much..
This was essentially my reasoning for inquiring about Wing. If Duo, Wing, Diablo, and Death are all out-performing Basalt, we can finally make the shocking move of tossing Basalt into the has-bin.
(Feb. 11, 2012 4:30 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Speaking of Basalt, I was wondering: Should it be taken off any time soon?
I personally get better results in all aspects with Death and I'm certain the same could be said about Duo (and possibly Wing/Diablo.)
If we do find another Metal Wheel which also surpasses Basalt, would there be a point in keeping it up? I mean it was good at some point, yeah, but now it isn't as much..
I would still consider basalt "competitive", honestly. I mean, it's kind of outclassed defensively but it's still very versatile, something other haven't quite shown yet. I'd like to see what a more aggressive Diablo BD145CS combination could do to Phantom Cancer TH170D, if it can net a decent number of KO's, then I think basalt could be removed.
Perhaps moving the BD145CS/MB/(RDF?) version to Balance, and remove the rest, as it is still quite versatile.
That said, I would not oppose removing it all together, no.
I'm not sure it can KO Stamina reliably..?
Little iffy on that part, but yeah, I'm not too sure it should be on any more.
When my Diablo gets in I'll definitely get tests up. From what I see already, it could take Basalt off the list quickly.
I'm also fairly interested in knowing how well Death, Duo, Wing, etc. stand up as Anti-Meta, since that is one thing Basalt does extremely well, still.
.. It's not like we're going to have Anti-"Meta" on the list any time soon, though?
Or that it is necessarily popular.
I'll do those Death tests today, though.
"Anti-Meta" combinations really only counter attack and some stamina combinations. Considering Stamina and Defense are more popular, those combinations are more "Anti-Attack" than "Anti-Meta".
If I recall, Diablo BD145RF does well against attack (may be some tests in the links I posted), and stamina (as long as it is launched hard enough).
Yes, I'm aware of the misnomer in the term itself, but I figured I'd use the only term anyone actually uses for it.
(Feb. 11, 2012 4:44 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ].. It's not like we're going to have Anti-"Meta" on the list any time soon, though?
Or that it is necessarily popular.
I'll do those Death tests today, though.
I'd still like to know a wheel has some "secret combo versatility" going for it, though.
The combos on this list are not the only effective ones.
Just call it anti-attack. Hopefully popular terminology will change if we set a good example. Anti-Attack not only symbolises their primary usage, but still encompasses "attack", as they do attack.
And yeah, I would still consider Anti-Attack performance relevant to this list, even if it does not have its own section.
Okay, I see where you're coming from there. :V
They may not be the only effective ones, but they usually are the most effective.
About Diablo, I personally like the wheel a lot. It's heavy, and can counter attack like nobody's business. It's definitely an excellent 'fun' wheel. Competitively speaking though, our current list generally performs better in their respective type.
Attack: Diablo is still shadowed under VariAres / Blitz.
Stamina: Definitely no, self explanatory.
Defense: If anything, it would fall under this category. Although, when faced against attackers, I would still personally opt for Duo instead. BUT, Diablo's counter attack characteristics is extremely handy, which is unheard of in the previous Defense type.
So overall, I'm still on the fence about this. I don't want to see it considered 'outclassed', yet still unsure for putting it on the list. Maybe if there was a definite combo for Diablo that is really good then perhaps yeah. I mean, we keep on recycling parts, but Diablo itself is 'unique'.
I do know what you mean, I don't feel as "safe" using diablo as I do Duo, but they both tend to get even results defensively, and Diablo is still significantly better than everything else on the Defense list, no?
As for attack, how overshadowed do you really think it is? Enough for it not to be competitive?
Maybe for defense.. IMO, Duo > Death => Diablo => Basalt. But to be honest, I'd still pick Basalt for defense rather than Diablo. It's just safer, and more consistent. Counter attack is not quite as reliable as I prefer. Sometimes it works, other times, it doesn't. And when it doesn't, we are left with just a heavy bey with lousy balance.
As for attack, I can't really answer that for the general audience. It's different for everybody, but IMO, if VariAres was an A+, Diablo would be a B+, which is still good, but you know, not top of the class. The contact points are not really defined for attack, it's just damn heavy. Or... I just have the wrong combos for it. *shrug*
As a side note, I had always refered to "Anti-Meta" as "Attack Anti Meta" or "Anti Attack Meta". I think the final term is the best because it's more specific than "Anti Attack".
Even your own testing results don't seem to support that notion though, let alone everyone else?
(Feb. 11, 2012 7:11 PM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ]As a side note, I had always refered to "Anti-Meta" as "Attack Anti Meta" or "Anti Attack Meta". I think the final term is the best because it's more specific than "Anti Attack".
As I said, I feel "Anti-Attack" demonstrates both that it is used to counter attack, and is also sort of twisting attack against itself, implying that it also "attacks". Or something. Any Attack oriented metagame would be basically devoid of stamina types because the attackers would dominate them too easily, and in general, so-called "anti-meta" combinations do little to counter the most common combinations of almost all meta games, so meta doesn't really come into it.
Perhaps I'm not understanding you, but where does "meta" come into the name of combinations that just don't suit most, if not all, metagames?
Perhaps we need a separate thread to discuss this, though. I was going to work on one but I've been too caught up with beywiki writing and personal stuff lately.
(Feb. 11, 2012 7:13 PM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]Even your own testing results don't seem to support that notion though, let alone everyone else?
Hahaha yes, but keep in mind, those tests were 1 person tests, which weigh less than 2 person tests or tournament battles. I was trying Diablo as an attacker with CH120 / TH170 against LTDC Fusion & heavy Basalt. (2 people tests), and I remember feeling not satisfied with the result.
Fair, but I was mainly referring to your defensive tests, where it severely outshone basalt. Attack, I am less concerned about at the moment.
Which defensive tests? Iirc, I haven't done any formal defensive tests for Diablo.
Ah th!nk, when I wrote I didn't understand, only the first half of your post was there and I thought it was a response to mine, haha.
As long as the concept is explained well, I don't really care what the name is.
(Feb. 11, 2012 7:33 PM)Uwik Wrote: [ -> ]Which defensive tests? Iirc, I haven't done any formal defensive tests for Diablo.
Hm, good point. I don't know where that came from.
Anyway, everyone else's tests seem to show it getting results far, far ahead of what basalt is capable of, and whilst I haven't done formal testing myself (not KOing stuff annoys me), it certainly seemed to be in the same league as Duo, as opposed to Basalt, which is significantly easier to KO (using MF-H Blitz UnicornoII C120R2F vs MF-H Basalt Aquario BD145CS and MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145CS).
: Ahh, good good 
Yo, I was just reminded today of H145. I know I've brought it up in the past with no success/response, but yeah, it is honestly an amazing Attack Track which is still seriously underrated, but definitely viable.
Anyone?