Ahh, I see. Well, as I said - I know full well it can bring down the big boys with a good bit of reliability - it is currently my pure attack wheel of choice! I'm just not sure if we need three attackers on the list, with two being Right-Spin, when Vari and Blitz do Beat's job better.
(Nov. 12, 2011 8:01 AM)Hazel Wrote: [ -> ]Ahh, I see. Well, as I said - I know full well it can bring down the big boys with a good bit of reliability - it is currently my pure attack wheel of choice! I'm just not sure if we need three attackers on the list, with two being Right-Spin, when Vari and Blitz do Beat's job better.
I guess it makes sense when you put it that way, but giving more options to bladers is still also a good thing, when they're limited to certain parts.
Well, Beat and Vari now have exactly identical availabilities, with a cost difference of only a couple dollars. In general, though, this list is the one that has to be hard-up and "I don't care about how much money you have, these are the best combos". The regular Tier List thread is for the softer, more forgiving part listing.
Don't get me wrong, I understand your point, but this thread should be completely impartial toward individual circumstance.
I do agree with you Hazel.
On a side note, I do hope Kei isn't being too reserve and careful with the decision of the list. It does need a make-over of sort, and the pace that we're at is a little counter productive.
The main problem i noticed with beat is that it only works when the heights of the 2 beyblades are good for beat.
At its full potential, it could be a top tier, but this height thing messes it uo (since you don't know what you're going to face each round)
Also, i was thinking to a combo that could give anything a hard time, but since i didn't found it here, maybe i'm expecting too much rom my recent purchases (i still have to test it, maybe my imagination was just wrong, lol)
About stamina section:
I saw phantom being the best mw for stamina (that's what i read around), is there anything that outspins it for some reason? (I remember kei telling he once lost to a scythe combo)
About defense section:
Is basalt the one and only defensive part without libra or earth?
About attack section:
Again, i read this so if i'm wrong just correct me.
Vari is currently the best MW for attack, right? How's Blitz compared to Vari?
Phantom and Scythe for stamina, depending on the track and bottom, are quite good. Generally, Phantom would win, but in some certain occasion, Scythe would win. I just had a mini tournament where my opponent used an identical combo, down to the clear wheel and metal face. MF-L Phantom Kronos B: D. Even B: D was the same stamp (A2). The only difference was I used mine in attack mode, and his was in stamina mode, and I won 3-0. Only a few combinations can match up to Phantom in term of stamina.
Death is quite good for defense, possibly not as good as Basalt, but close enough. Death as a defense is much better than Libra and Earth.
VariAres is generally preferred I guess, but Blitz is quite good too. I personally prefer VariAres due to its thickness and wide diameter, more so than its dual spin ability.
To expand further on Uwik's post, Death's current role in Defense is shaping up to look very similar to what Earth would be if it were a lot heavier. It's got very low recoil in Defense Mode, and weighs just a couple of grams short of Basalt. Combine this with its basic "perfect circle" shape, and how close it sticks to BD145, and you have a very powerful Defense wheel. I do not have much experience using Attack Mode for Defense Customization, as it has a lot more recoil...
On VariAres and Blitz, Blitz is very rarely preferable to Vari, although it does better on Low Track customs in general, from what I've heard. Blitz is also easier to use than Vari, requiring a lot less precision/force in your launch to get it to do what it needs to do.
Yo, Th!nk and I were playing mental hacky-sack today and arguing about CS where he mentioned that I was right (
), and how MFB has no real balance, but a lopsided Hybrid of sorts.
Why do we have a Balance section? It is really just a bunch of Hybrid of Defense-Stamina's being brought up.. Always.
CS isn't that 'Balanced' either: if it has great Stamina, chances are it will not have the proper shape/wear to do a proper sliding shoot and vice-versa. You can't really call CS Balance because everyone wears it differently, when it is always a compromise between 2 categories, and not all 3..
(Nov. 15, 2011 12:25 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Yo, Th!nk and I were playing mental hacky-sack today and arguing about CS where he mentioned that I was right (), and how MFB has no real balance, but a lopsided Hybrid of sorts.
Why do we have a Balance section? It is really just a bunch of Hybrid of Defense-Stamina's being brought up.. Always.
Metal Flat.
Stamina-Attack Hybrid. It has absolutely no defensive qualities..
Also, it wasn't really directed at a single part (even though I went there, lol) but full combinations..
Balance does not really need to mean all three categories in this Metagame, either. Arguing the semantics over wording just doesn't make much sense - you're just suggesting that "Balance Section" be changed to "Hybrid Section", which sounds silly and isn't technically any more correct... the context of the word "balance" is to be defined by others, not the word itself.
Regardless, I was saying MF because you said it was only defense-stamina being brought up; MF is the single best "Balance" part in the Attack-oriented side of the metagame, and works on a number of combos.
Okay, semantics, but MF-H Basalt TH170CS is still standing in the Defense section while OS'ing many, many combinations.
(Nov. 12, 2011 5:28 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Speaking of chiming in, we have a couple new additions who don't bother with this forum!
We need more view-points and most of the original few are busy like dervishes.
I guess I'm one of those?
Sorry about that!
I believe that Phantom must appear in the stamina top tier list. There is an acre of testing on the Phantom thread, and my personal experience with the wheel from individual tests and extensive tournament experience is that it beats Scythe and Basalt combos hands down.
I agree with Uwik that Hell and Earth should be pulled off the stamina list, but I disagree about Basalt. In the current set of releases Basalt is the clear #3 stamina wheel in my opinion behind Phantom then Scythe.
EDIT:
I'm sure there was a joke in there somewhere about Hell and Earth, but I was too tired to try and find it!
Also, a belated congratulations to Pcyborg. WTG man!
(Nov. 12, 2011 5:28 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Don't worry: I won't think any less of you for it.
Speaking of chiming in, we have a couple new additions who don't bother with this forum!
We need more view-points and most of the original few are busy like dervishes.
I suppose that would be me?
Been rather busy to even visit the forums these days! haha. Just enough time for a quick look at most.
I cant say much about the tier list at the moment partially because the community on my side is still primarily focusing on non 4D beys.
However, I do have something to say in regards to the Balance category. Like Dan mentioned, it should be classified more as "Hybrid" than Balance.
Beywiki Definition of Balance is :
Quote:Balance is a Beyblade type that is used to classify a Beyblade which combines attributes from the three main types: Attack, Defense, and Survival.
Honestly speaking I find it next to impossible to have a single bey excelling in all the fields. Even Hell BD145 CS which supposedly has all the 3 traits at most exhibit 2 of the traits prominently at any one point of time (with a calm CS, its more Defence/Survival. With Aggro CS, its more Attack/Survival). It can do the job of all 3, but it heavily depends on CS condition.
Likewise for Uwik's recommendation of
Basalt/Phantom TH170/230 CS
It could KO but its definitely more Defence/Survival oriented. It does the job of 3 but at any point of time mostly 2 traits would be prominent.
Classifying it as Hybrid like Dan mentioned would be more appropriate.
Or even "Defense-Stamina Split", "Stamina-Attack Split", or "Attack-Defense Split" given to the appropriate combo of course.
I support the idea of a Split/Hybrid Section. Seems less formal but who cares because anything else would be less accurate.
(Nov. 15, 2011 5:23 PM)Pcyborg Wrote: [ -> ]...
However, I do have something to say in regards to the Balance category. Like Dan mentioned, it should be classified more as "Hybrid" than Balance.
Beywiki Definition of Balance is :
Quote:Balance is a Beyblade type that is used to classify a Beyblade which combines attributes from the three main types: Attack, Defense, and Survival.
Honestly speaking I find it next to impossible to have a single bey excelling in all the fields. Even Hell BD145 CS which supposedly has all the 3 traits at most exhibit 2 of the traits prominently at any one point of time (with a calm CS, its more Defence/Survival. With Aggro CS, its more Attack/Survival). It can do the job of all 3, but it heavily depends on CS condition.
...
Classifying it as Hybrid like Dan mentioned would be more appropriate.
(Nov. 16, 2011 12:39 AM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ]...
I support the idea of a Split/Hybrid Section. Seems less formal but who cares because anything else would be less accurate.
Or... we could just redefine what "Balance" means in the beywiki since there seems to be a general feeling that no decent combo can actually meet the definition as it stands.
If redefining "Balance" is to simply having 2 types meeting the criteria, that means a good portion of our Stamina/Defense combos would belong to "Balance" as majority are already exhibiting prominent traits amongst these 2.
Opting for a name change would be more appropriate to avoid confusion.
Well, that's one way to look at it.
I would argue that what we call Stamina/Defense combos should really just be considered "heavy stamina". In my mind, the only thing the qualifies as a defensive combo is the use of a rubber tip like RS, RSF, RDF, or RB - and their use pretty much eliminates any chance of stamina.
Thoughts?
(Nov. 17, 2011 7:22 PM)Arupaeo Wrote: [ -> ]Well, that's one way to look at it.
I would argue that what we call Stamina/Defense combos should really just be considered "heavy stamina". In my mind, the only thing the qualifies as a defensive combo is the use of a rubber tip like RS, RSF, RDF, or RB - and their use pretty much eliminates any chance of stamina.
Thoughts?
I don't think anyone who has ever seen, faced, or used any variant of CS can - in good conscience - call it anything other than a Defense tip, unless they had an Aggressive one. While it may be the King Outspin of Defense tips, it still has the hanging-on power of several straight-up rubber tips; some claim RSF has better hang ability, but I don't think so, and my own testing refuted it entirely when I tried it out. RDF and RS do, however, cling better. RB... I do not own, but have not heard good things about in the KO ability regard.
CS doesn't have enough outright stamina to be called a Stamina tip, IMO. CS and MF are the two tips that basically define our "Balance" metagame, along with XF and WF following suit.
I think that altering the article to more appropriately state the actuality of "Balance" in Beyblade is the better option, since its current status implies there IS a Balance Beyblade that has high marks in all three - there is no such thing in MFB. In Plastics, some Compacts did, but even then it was extroardinarily rare.
"At least two" is the way I would phrase it, personally.
I hear what you are saying, and of course I use CS extensively in practice, so let me contradict myself in a slightly different way.
If defense > attack, then the only tip I would be comfortable classifying as such is RS. Or to put it another way, if I knew that I was facing an attack type, I wouldn't choose to use CS. Ever. Only RS.
Which I guess kind of makes the point that CS is a true hybrid/balance tip with some defensive properties, but in my mind I don't think of it as defense.
BD145CS>many RS combos I can think of.
Like I was saying, CS does not incorporate all 3 categories well enough to be considered Balance, but Hybrid. That also goes for most combos considered Balance. I always figured it a defense tip with better stamina than the other tips, but going far enough to considering it stamina or Balance (for some innate reason) is too much.. Our perception of CS has greatly altered IMHO.
The article needs to be reprimanded regardless, because as I already stated - ZERO COMBOS fit the current definition of "Balance". It's much more inane to switch to a new term rather than utilize one that already fits but is poorly explained.
And as Dan mentioned, Arupaeo, RS is only a valid tip on certain tracks. BD145RS will scrape and blow itself up. Hazel tested, mother approved.
Yeah, I hear RS doesn't do well on M145 either, but the BD145 comment is a complete non sequitur. From my perspective CS isn't a real defense tip, and from your perspective it is. I can live with that.
As to whether CS is truly a balance tip or not, I will also choose to disagree and say that it is a balance tip.
- CS has stamina when shot shot straight in the center of the stadium
- CS has defensive qualities when knocked toward the tornado ridge by an attack type
- CS has attack qualities when launched on edge - including an incredibly fast tornado stall
Seems like it has all 3 aspects to me, and can be found in the oh-so-popular combo MF-H Basalt BD145 CS.
In a perfect world CS would display all those aspects to its full potential, but that is not the case.
I think I brought it up earlier: Not many CS' can have decent stamina qualities while still maintaining an awesome aggressive style when banked/whichever shot you prefer. Not many CS' can have decent Attack qualities while maintaining a completely passive 'attitude' for a proper Stamina tip.
CS should not be considered a Stamina tip, which is what you're implying, because TBH it cannot compare to the actual stamina tips on the tier list: it will consistently lose. Basalt being constantly used with CS has really destroyed our view on it: CS has been vested with a god-like appearance with Basalt vs. Stamina/as a stamina tip due to Basalt's qualities, really.
CS is not competent enough to some how have all those qualities to its best ability.. It will always give up one of them if it can do the other two. Though obviously Stamina/Attack CS isn't very likely ever.
When I originally did CS tests it was about as equal in stamina to WB..
On top of all of this: CS was only inducted because of its Defensive capabilities, not its supposed Stamina ones.
Well... I'm not saying it is a stamina tip, just like I wasn't saying that it was a defense tip, and I'm also not saying its an attack tip. What I have said is that it is a Balance tip - which thanks to our friendly neighborhood Beywiki, "combines attributes from the three main types: Attack, Defense, and Survival."
My apologies for not following a dogmatic structure of parallelism in my use of the word "qualities" in my previous post, but what is stated above is what I mean.
I also reject the false dichotomy being offered between "completely passive" and "awesome attack". Again, Balance exhibits attributes from each type - not mimics exactly the behavior of all types or each type.
Your statement that, "CS is not competent enough to some how have all those qualities to its best ability." is exactly right: A balance type isn't as good in any 1 area as the specialists from that area alone.
This makes sense, right? In the Olympics they have multi-events like the Decathlon. The Gold medalist in the Decathlon isn't the fastest marathon runner in the world, nor the fastest sprinter, not the highest pole vaulter, etc. But, he does each of these things pretty good - exhibiting attributes from each area - but not to the highest level of achievement in any one of them.