World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.

(Mar. 11, 2012  5:46 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]So to sum up stuff we agree on, for posterity/not sifting through this jumble of words:

-Just plain MF-H on Defense

Agreed

(Mar. 11, 2012  5:46 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]-Flash, for sure for Attack as far as I'm concerned (and as far as it can throw current defenders out of the stadium)

I haven't tried Flash personally, but from the looks of it in the testing thread, it really looks good. So for now, 'no comment' leaning towards 'yes'

(Mar. 11, 2012  5:46 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]-Diablo should be on Defense, perhaps Wing as well. I did some tests and yeah, Wing looks good vs. anything not Flash related. (perhaps break open my new VariAres for this..)

Yes for Diablo, no comment on Wing.

(Mar. 11, 2012  5:46 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]-Basalt should really be off. Balance combo should be replaced with MF-H Phantom TH170CS.

So much yes.

(Mar. 11, 2012  5:46 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]-Like I've proposed before, but is definitely essential here with Flash around: Anti-Attack. MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145/R145RF. (then again this could just be added to Attack with and asterisk or something..) Definitely need more opinions on that/Metal Wheel options, but yeah Th!nk and I shall sing in unison about it.

I get what you guys mean about Anti Attack, but somehow, I don't like it the idea of putting it in a separate category. If it was to be done, then I proposed the other categories previously mentioned too (Types of Attack, Stam/Def Hybrids, etc)

Stam/Def hybrids do need their own category, but they sit on a spectrum of stamina/defense which all Stam/Def blades sit upon.

Anti-Attack is much more unique. I guess it's a blend of Defense and Attack but they're awkward to categorise as either. I'd put them under Defense if I had to choose, though.

Yes, I understand, but if you think about it. Most combos that fall into that category is by no means 'competitive' are they? They're just good combos designed solely as counters to a specific type.

For me personally, it's safer to just simply use a competitive defense combination than a specific anti attack combo, against attack types.

They seem to be the only effective way to guarantee a win against Flash, and Diablo Anti-Attack combinations will also clear out basically all stamina types (especially if you use R145, which still handles other attackers) as well as some weaker defense beyblades. Honestly, if I attend an MFB tournament soon I'd definitely have MF-H Diablo Kerbecs R145RF in my main stable of beyblades.

Diablo is the best at this, MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145R2F will easily handle any stamina type other than BD145EDS ones (and perhaps LTSC's, I haven't tried yet), with R145 it demolishes them. Wing isn't so good at this but still pretty good against taller stamina opponents.

So no, they're nowhere near as limited as you think, all thanks to Diablo being so fat. Wing does a pretty good job too, but Diablo is basically the master of Anti-Attack, being the first really good Attack/Defense hybrid type wheel we've had, performance of previous anti-attack beyblades doesn't really apply to it, Anti-Attack is the reason it exists.

I'd use Diablo as an Anti-Attacker over a CS/RDF defender. Quick rundown of why:

MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145CS: Outspun by every other defender. Beaten by stamina. Good against attack.
MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145R2F: Outspin by every defender barring lucky KO's against TH170CS. KOs most stamina types quite easily, other than BD145EDS (and maybe LTSC). Better against attack.
MF-H Diablo Kerbecs R145RF/R2F: Outspun by every defender but better than the other two. KOs basically every stamina type reliably. Still reliable against attack, perhaps more than BD145CS.

Diablo mainly beats attackers by using their recoil against them, R2F/RF just enhances that. It's not like Diablo, with its absolutely appalling stamina, is losing anything by not using CS anyway.

Perhaps it is just my solo experience, but I don't find Diablo to be anywhere near as good as it is being made out to be..

Sure, you can use the Attackers recoil against them, but that is by no means a one-way street. It can be taken advantage of by Attackers, no? (At least the BD145RDF/CS variants of Diablo Defense) Seriously though, if we're going to call Diablo R145RF/R2F anti-attack why not call Flash the same thing? Just because it is effective at defeating other Attackers doesn't mean it is completely 'anti-attack', does it?

Also, Cygnus for Defense/Stamina/maybe Attack? I find it astounding..

Yeah, I must admit, that testing that Brood did was very disappointing. I mean, it's still better than any other defense combo has done against it thus far, and I would still suggest we list RF under defense for Diablo (or balance, perhaps), but yeah.

The idea behind Anti-Attack is that it is more focussed at beating other attackers than anything else, but to be "competitive" it needs a broader range, which Diablo is able to provide.



And Cygnus looks pretty round so I don't see why not, from what you've told me it certainly seems to be an excellent choice.

I get same results as Brood.. Not sure if I posted that?

I think you mean than any other Anti-Attack thus far. RDF/CS testing I did vs. Flash was just putrid. Diablo RF was less putrid, but still very repulsive.
Meh, I don't like the idea, but whatever..

Cygnus4preztoptier!

I have been advocating Cygnus as a top tier CW since it came out... it was obvious just by looking at it, but when it also turned out to be heavy and perfectly balanced...

Flash.

It is a beast. Honestly, it deserves a spot on the Attack list. It's very easy to control under correct combinations. I used it a fair bit on the last tournament, and consistently, it gave me 3-0 wins, even against Diablo. The smash is probably not as violent as VariAres, but it's safe to say it's trait people are willing to trade for more control.

I do notice that less and less bladers are using Blitz. In my meta, most go for VariAres and Diablo (which, I'm still on the edge for tier-ing it).

Anyway, yeah, Flash. Do consider it Kei.

Flash has provided such overwhelming and blatant evidence to its superiority that it really doesn't even need to be discussed, just pick all the successful combos and throw them up there.

People were previously turning to Blitz because it was an easier-to-control VariAres, in effect. Now, Flash does that twice as well.

Got Flash. It's two gigantic bludgeoning arms with all the weight focussed on them. Absolutely overwhelming, probably the strongest wheel in MFB.

Shaba listed it out pretty well. The gimmicks of the non-145 tracks don't make a big difference, but people should know that themselves by now and we don't want a whole paragraph for Flash. It works well on MF and RF/R2F/LRF, didn't seem to do well on WF because of controllability and XF has no recoil handling.

I've thrown AD145 on as well, because it works great with MF and still does well with RF from what I've tried. May need more testing. 135 isn't on there because the testing we had of it wasn't great, but I'll try to do some, I'm kinda worn out and I'm not really that interested in MFB at the moment, though Flash is helping hugely.

The other change I made to that was removing SagittarioII, because it can only get in the way and the distribution is all wrong (tall on the thin part of flash, low on the tall part where all the weight is on flash). Most other two sided CW's would do better.
Escolpio and Quetz focus the weight nicely and both are known to do horrible things to taller opponents. I tried them both, and was very, very happy with their performance.

So, what I'd add:

MF(-H) Flash Escolpio/Quetzalcoatl 105/CH120/125/130/AD145/GB145/H145 MF/RF/R2F/LRF

My favourite is MF-H Flash Escolpio S130R2F, for whatever it's worth.



Oh, the other thing, Uwik's combo here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-MF-H-Duo-Aquario-230-MB is at least as good as any Duo combo on this list. It's a balance type leaning strongly to stamina, but yeah. My Phantom does unusually well and Flash is, as always, an incredible beast, but this combo has tourney wins to back it up and against lower tracks it's just amazing.

MF-H Flash ___ AD145 RF for me personally. I have explained my reasoning before.

(Apr. 01, 2012  3:55 PM)Uwik Wrote: [ -> ]I was never a fan of H145 due to its breakage issues. I've broken 2 or 3 in the past, although most probably, it'd yield good results. I tried S130, and for me personally, it didn't do as well as the 145 variants. When I used GB145 on it, it was more difficult for me to control, and in the end, it was inconsistent. Some rounds give excellent results, while other rounds are filled with self KOs. Hence, AD145.

Yeah, I actually disliked both H145 (because it's just too recoily and the weight distro isn't right IMO), and GB145 (significantly harder to control, inconsistent). That said, both get great results anyway. S130 is still my personal favourite though, it's just a great height all around (and it just keeps making Duo BD145RDF scrape and spin itself out somehow).

Glad to hear that I'm not alone in liking AD145 though.

I gave 135 an informal try and it still seemed really good so I'll see if someone else wants to test it again.

One more thing, I am unsure about having Aquario on Phantom up here. Here's a post detailing why, based on beyhyperkiller's tests in the MF-H Duo Aquario 230MB topic: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Clear-Wh...#pid932057


EDIT: Changing my CW preferences. I'd suggest Escolpio, Pisces, and Orion (I prefer the first two slightly, but Orion actually comes with usable parts so I think we need to include it), but full list of what I checked/liked here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Flash-di...#pid933006 Just visual but that generally works pretty well. Sagittario 2 is a terrible choice and I've bumped down Quetz for being a bit too obtrusive in spots where it shouldn't be.

Also: We still need to change the CW for blitz to Unicorno II, instead of Unicorno. Creates way too much confusion if we don't set the example that you have to be clear about these things. Main reason for urgency on that is Flash, as Flash Sagittario is a good setup while Flash Sagittario II is not a good setup. We need to be clear and set the example for everyone else.

Wow guys, not like this is an important thread we should try to keep updated, and it's not like we have a bit of a gap here to sort it out without new parts distracting us. I know Zero-G is new and exciting, but most people are still playing MFB, so we kinda have a responsibility to them to keep this thread something resembling up-to-date.

I know Dan's basically given up, Uwik is busy, and most of you have Moderation Duties/Other Committee Stuff, so that's a lot of the discussion gone, but you know, we're supposed to be setting an example here, aren't we?

I already put forth my opinion. Further posting, at least from me, would be kind of pointless. I do not own Flash, Duo, Diablo, Vari, or Phantom - so I can only attest to what I've seen as a trend, and I did that.

Kei's input is what's missing, in terms of these changes actually going up. PMing him would probably work better than posting here about it, too.

I don't blame you at all, Hazel, you're one of the most active people here. I think part of the problem is the lack of active advanced members.
As for Kei, can't you guys in the committee try to sort of... I dunno, tell him, when it comes to his "duties" or whatever you'd call this? I'm nervous to PM him because I only ever do so to nag about things. He should be checking here anyway, he's responsible for the list, after all...

Anyway, I decided to be bold and wrote this up:

I also ordered wheels by how good they are at what they do, I figured it’s not hard to do at the moment but it’s up to you guys really, I don't mind either way. I ordered the tips alphabetically and the tracks by height and then alphabetical order.

Quote:ATTACK

• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Flash Escolpio/Orion/Pisces 105/CH120/125/130/AD145/GB145/H145 RF/R2F/MF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Blitz Unicorno II 100/CH120 RF/R2F
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Kerbecs BD145/TH170 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Death Aquario/Bull/Kerbecs BD145/TH170 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/WD
  
• Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/WD
  
• Scythe Kronos 100/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/WD
  
• Death Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/WD
  

BALANCE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 230MB
  

I also think we could throw 85 on defense but whatever.
I want to cut Aquario and Bull off stamina, too. But that requires more discussion.
Still don't get why we don't put 85 on scythe but do put it on other things that overhang as much, but I wasn't here when scythe was put up, so I'll leave that to the rest of you.

Thoughts would be appreciated.

My version would be

Quote:ATTACK

• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Flash Escolpio/Orion???/Pisces 105/CH120/125/130/AD145/GB145/H145 RF/R2F/MF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Blitz Unicorno II 100/CH120 RF/R2F
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Kerbecs BD145/TH170 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Death Aquario/Bull/Kerbecs BD145/TH170 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SWD/SD/WD
  
• Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SWD/SD/WD
  
• Scythe Kronos 100/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/WD
  
• Death Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/WD
  

BALANCE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 230MB
  

130 and 125 absolutely must stay on Flash, all the tracks listed there are highly competitive on flash. S130 is, in my opinion, the best track for it. D125 is also excellent, and both have consistently performed well in testing, usually being the two best tracks. The gimmicks don't seem to have a noticeable effect on performance, hence the listing of their ungimmicked versions.
105 works nicely, though in a metagame with lots of 230 combos it's probably not as good a choice. I'd still use it over a few of the other tracks up there.


Duo TH170RDF is great for defense/defensive balance, to be honest. If you cut TH170 from defense then it would need to be moved to balance, there's no questioning it's competitive viability in such combinations.

What would you recommend to counter flash, under the assumption the opponent will launch well? Low Recoil BD145RF is the most reliable counter I'm aware of. Or, is there another reason for not including it?

Orion is a great CW on Flash, and is the pretty much the best compromise between performance and ownership. IMO it's also the third best anyway.

I don't mind cutting Scythe and Death off Stamina entirely, adding SWD is fine too.


Oh, I would also perhaps consider adding wing to defense. It's certainly the next best wheel to what's up there, anyway.

The thing is I dislike TH170 on defense. It's relatively easy to KO, even with rubber bottoms and good defensive metal wheels. Like its counterpart, it ONLY excels in stamina type. As for the Balance, under that specific combination, it simply would not work.

RF for defense. It's great IF it's competitively legal. The point where RF loses its speed drastically to be considered defensive, it will no longer be legal for our Organized Play.

As for Orion, you know your CWs better than most. I'll leave it to your expertise.

Against flash, perhaps*, but MF-H Duo TH170RDF is very hard to KO for anything else. I accidentally wrote RF last post, haha, TH170RF is a bad combination for sure. TH170RS is still very hard to KO as well. TH170CS is a balance setup, not a defense one, but CS is there for BD145. Even BD145CS is a balance type setup. It's all where we draw the line, and so far we've left that stuff in defense.

*If we're going to start cutting things off defense based on how they do against flash, it's going to be very, very empty.

I'm not talking about a worn RF here. Duo/Death BD145RF combos come out of high speed impacts with other RF's better than attack wheels due to their low recoil. Diablo does lose a bit of that reliability but isn't so limited in its applications as it can actually KO things. Worn RF's, as far as I recall, were just a side discussion on the EarthRF thing, not the entire point, anyway.

My other concern with moving TH170 combos to balance is it would intefere with the specificity of the MF-H Duo 230MB combo there. Given how that combination could honestly make am sizeable portion of this list redundant, it should, IMO, be kept "clear". There's also TH170RS to consider which is kinda dicey, though it's not at all a common setup. If we did move it to balance, we should probably also slash in 230.

I'm really sorry about neglecting this for so long, everyone. Thankfully though, this upcoming week is the last full week of my current semester, so I'll have a lot more time to dedicate to this soon!

If you guys can put together an updated list that you all agree upon, that would help. I've read over all of the most recent posts, but there is simply too many things for me to comment on/contend/agree with right now, and I'd prefer to first do some testing myself (which will happen before BEYBLADE CRUSADE Recruitment Session: 5) so I can present a more up-to-date, informed opinion when I do post.

(Apr. 12, 2012  10:10 AM)Uwik Wrote: [ -> ]My version would be

Quote:ATTACK

• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Flash Escolpio/Orion???/Pisces 105/CH120/125/130/AD145/GB145/H145 RF/R2F/MF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Blitz Unicorno II 100/CH120 RF/R2F
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Kerbecs BD145/TH170 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Death Aquario/Bull/Kerbecs BD145/TH170 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SWD/SD/WD
  
• Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SWD/SD/WD
  
• Scythe Kronos 100/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/WD
  
• Death Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Cygnus 85/AD145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/WD
  

BALANCE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 230MB
  

Here just to say a couple of things I tested at home and in our MG in general:

Blitz should be erased from the Tier Attack List; it works very well, but it can't do anything against the MWs with super weight, or, in general, it's not better than Variares or Flash against Top Defensive MWs.

Why I don't see MF-H Duo__TH170MB in this list?

No Diablo in Attack combos??????

Pretty much everyone seems to discredit Diablo as a viable Attacker compared to the others.

Blitz has been very well-proven to perform as well as VariAres, however... for quite a long time, in fact. It also doesn't suffer nearly as bad of age diminishing as Vari, and is easier to control.

RF is probably the best tip to use Diablo on.. in any kind of combo. That should stay.